Studio Sessions
Discussions about art and the creative process. New episodes every other week.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
Studio Sessions
25: The Timeless Appeal of Quality
We discuss the emotional connections and experiences tied to the tools we use, particularly in photography and other creative fields. We examine the difference between authentic craftsmanship and brands that capitalize on their reputation, using examples like Leica cameras and Rolex watches. We also touch on the challenges of maintaining artistic integrity in a commercial world.
We highlight the importance of loving the tools we use and the experiences they create, whether it’s a vintage typewriter or a high-end camera. The episode emphasizes the value of products that are built to last and carry meaningful experiences, contrasting them with the fleeting nature of modern consumerism. We discuss the role of authenticity in both personal choices and brand identities and how staying true to one’s values leads to more fulfilling creative and consumer experiences.
Lastly, we consider the balance between art and commerce, using examples from music and watchmaking to show the importance of evolving creatively while staying connected to core values. This episode is a reminder to value the tools that enrich our lives and to remain mindful of the stories they carry. -Ai
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
And it had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer.
Speaker 2:So we're talking about taking the four by five. It feels like it's not entirely worth it to break it out, unless there's like a project yeah that and I agree, needs to be worked on and part of I mean you know I hate to say that, but and it is easier, I have 120 converters so I can shoot 120 on the 4x5. Yep, the process is still there, but like it's not worth it really to for me to break the 4x5 five outs like take pictures in my yard.
Speaker 1:Like you know, no, absolutely so. Yeah, especially something that's just sort of like a disembodied photo. Like you said, like there's no versus it being a collection of things for a project.
Speaker 2:It's a project, right, that's a camera. That's like a. The only thing I could think of. That's a motion picture camera, that is like that. You know, yeah, that is a tool for a job and I will eventually definitely have a job for it. But recently, yeah, I just haven't. I mean, I took a little time off and then kind of came back to it and we've been shooting together for the last couple of weeks. And I'm finding threads. This is kind of interesting. Maybe store this away.
Speaker 2:This is kind of interesting but nothing like for sure or like, this is what I want to do yet.
Speaker 2:So when you're in that kind of situation, you just have to keep going. Yeah, keep shooting. There are projects that like, if we, if we start to do our magazine project that we um, we've been talking about I think I want to bust that out for that Sure intermix, this like journalism and art kind of middle ground would love to take a role of 120, you know, do a full role of 120 for each place. Um, that sounds great. But yeah, it's just finding the right, the right use use case right and then also freaking developing the film yeah so.
Speaker 1:So what's like for one photo? What's the? We're talking like 40 bucks. Like to to have one four by five 40? I don't think it's probably like, and I mean the cost of the film and yeah thing so what sucks for anybody that's new to four by five.
Speaker 2:There's's not really. It's not like 35 or one 20, where it's. You can just send it and get it like developed and scanned, right. Um, you can get it scanned. A lot of places, though, need to do drum scan for four by five and up.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Drum scans get expensive per photo, um, so I have my own scanner Right, so you have to work that into the. What are you going to depreciate?
Speaker 1:that over however many photos.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like if you want a decent scanner that does four by five and you want the plate and like you can have the mounting fluid for the like, all of that's going to cost money.
Speaker 2:Um, I don't really think about that because I already spent the money, like several years ago, but you are going to need that and then you're going to have to find somebody that can develop it, so you send it off, get it developed. What I'll do is I'll send it off, get it developed and get it sent back you get the negative and scan the negative and that's not that bad.
Speaker 2:We're talking like $4, maybe a frame to get it developed. Probably like another $4 maybe a frame. Yep, okay To get it developed. Probably like another four, maybe per frame. Okay, if we're shooting color. Yeah, and I apologize, I haven't bought four by five film, I bought a lot of it a couple of years ago and I haven't really bought more Cause I was watching Brian Burke's channel. Black and white is significantly cheaper. Right.
Speaker 1:And he was shooting color four by five and I vaguely recall him saying something like 40 bucks a shot, between between how much it costs and then developing.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it's 40 a shot, but it's probably like again. Film prices have changed a lot since I bought a bunch of four, I know Right.
Speaker 1:So well, dude, I mean just. Ultra max at Walgreens went up from $799 to $1299.
Speaker 2:I'm sure that that's hit 4x5. I'm sure when I go back out and start shooting more.
Speaker 1:At the same time, cinestill did 4x5 400D. So you're getting. I don't know what they're basing that off of, because everybody always says it's like their 35 is vision 3, 250, 250d with the rem jet taken off. Blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:I don't know what they're doing for their four by five, doing yeah, yeah and I don't, yeah, I don't necessarily. I like to stick with the reliable, with four by five so it's like yeah, and I would like I've got a thing of uh, ectochrome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've got a thing you got four by got 4x5 Ektachrome.
Speaker 2:Not Ektachrome. Is it Ektachrome?
Speaker 1:The color slide film Right Ektachrome's.
Speaker 2:Ektachrome's. So yeah, yeah, it's Ektachrome.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Ektachrome 100,. I think yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's cool. It's not super expensive. Um, I know a roll of it's like for 35 like 30 bucks 35, I got it. I got a roll for christmas it was 30 dollars yeah, it used to be eight.
Speaker 2:I used because I used to shoot ektachrome. Yeah, primarily actually that's the main reason I bought the m6 was to shoot ectochrome. Then it just got too expensive and I I started shooting the the m9 more for. So I don't really shoot yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:Color film anymore, based the sensor off of was ectochrome. Yeah, which is, yeah, right.
Speaker 2:Not that they achieved it necessarily, but that was tough, though that was the inspiration ectochrome is close to the M9 in the sense of like Ektachrome is completely unforgiving, but I love the look of it. It just kind of has this like dull real look to it, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm going to use that on the satellite dish project I think I have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just make sure you meter, because you've got to like center meter. I'm hoping that with the F one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the metering in cause it, you know, with the circle and the line you know. I hope that that's you want to meter though.
Speaker 2:Cause if you just meet it like with if you're shooting negative film, you're you're probably used to just metering the shadows, or metering, yeah, the shadows.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so so, meter the shadows, meter the highlights and split the difference. Split the difference, yep.
Speaker 2:Because if you meet at the highlights, yep, we live in Nebraska.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not a lot of overcast, no.
Speaker 2:So you're not gonna, you're probably not gonna get too much success. Metering Also, time of day becomes a little bit because we live in nebraska and yeah, this it's typically pretty harsh out, yes, very harsh. Um. So yeah, I mean, yeah, just shoot a couple rolls so you'll be fine.
Speaker 1:It's just freaking expensive 30 bucks yeah and then it's 18 at midwest to develop and scan.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's uh 50 bucks for a roll of ectochrome, which you you are getting 36 exposures, yes, so a dollar, some odd a frame is not terrible no, no, no no, but yeah the it's going to be a painful process to get there but it's a great project film and that's what I mean, like for me it's going to be a project film, not a like screw around.
Speaker 1:Uh, screw around on friday night at the at the park deal.
Speaker 2:I think, I think like I mean yeah, so I, I shoot. I had portrait one 60.
Speaker 2:I got portrait 400 and then I got active Chrome and then I got HP five for the four by five Yep, and I love the look of the HP five and I mean you, you know this. But like I have all that darkroom equipment and I want to get to a place where that is like. I would love to get to a place where I'm just kind of like cost maintained, Like I can develop my own stuff, I can scan it. I've got like a process and a place for that process to take place.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Cause. Then I would primarily shoot with the M four, yep, and then you have the M nine for digital. That's like my dream process. Right now it's a little hard cause I'm sending stuff off. So the but the M four typically only sees black and white film. I can shoot color in it. I, but the M4 typically only sees black and white film. I can shoot color in it. I just don't choose to.
Speaker 2:So most of my color is digital at this point and, yeah, it's tough to do. The color Color 4x5 is so beautiful, oh God, yeah, I mean, you want to do color 4x5. There's an attraction to doing black and white four by five cause it's much easier and cheaper. But color four by five is just like I mean especially we're talking about X-Chrome like if you can do slide film four by five, it's, I mean, it's. It's like real. Yeah, it looks real. Like I know I don't real. Yeah, it looks real, I know I don't know how to describe it. It doesn't have any of the. It's like you get all of the beauty of looking at a film photograph and like the technical, like there is a soul to it. It's not completely clinical, but it's technically like very close to perfect as well. Yeah, and then it also yeah, it just toes the line perfectly.
Speaker 1:Well, the only experience I've had of that feeling is some of the photography books that I've had, and most of those, the ones where I had that experience, was eight by 10 film, but you know it's, it's on a page of a book. Yeah, but it's on a page of a book and that's part of why I wish we had access to more photography exhibits or galleries where someone who is doing serious work with 8x10 or even 4x5.
Speaker 2:And 8x10 and 4x5 are close enough. Yeah, especially if you're making standard-sized prints. Yeah, I don't think. I think 99 out of a hundred people probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
Speaker 1:I would I would love to see at a gallery, though, a really large print where you're standing in front of it and you, like, you, look like you're looking through a hole in the wall, to something that's really there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I mean some of the best photos I've seen. It's like when you shoot 4x5 or 8x10, you have a good lens and you're shooting it on beautiful slide film and, yeah, you blow it up into a nice frame.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Maybe like four times the size of this yeah, something big. The textures pop Exactly, like literally, in my head right now. I just have this image of like blue jeans. Like blue jeans on a couch, yeah, and it's just like you can see. Just you look at the texture of it and you're like, oh, those are perfect blue jeans yeah I don't know how to like it sounds ridiculous, but no, I know I did I had that you don't capture that no in digital and I know it's not as large of a print.
Speaker 1:But when I was going through steven shore's book, um, when he first switched to 8x10 and like the motel rooms and all that, it's crazy because in that book how is this possible?
Speaker 2:and in that book those are essentially contact prints. Yeah right, so that's, that is the beauty of it, right, is you've got? I mean, all of the detail is yes, every bit of it you can just yeah, it's like you can see the photons of light.
Speaker 1:It's so weird when you look at it in a good way. Uh, and I can I. Now I get it like watching like the behind the scenes stuff of different photographers lugging around those 8x10 cameras. I'm like I, I get it.
Speaker 2:It's worth it, but it isn't. It is prohibitive in the sense of I mean, you hear like I don't know who's the most. I don't even think Stephen Shore really uses an eight by 10 anymore. No, probably not. He's mainly like iPhone.
Speaker 1:I don't know how much he still, although he stopped in his Instagram. He stopped doing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wonder if I wonder how much he still shoots. But I mean, you know, there's plenty of photographers out using large format yeah but the one that you and I probably are most familiar with is alex soth yes and he talks about this where he's like like he doesn't really. I think it's interesting because I have like two relationships with cameras. I have like a personal relationship and like a working relationship. Yes, and I've tried to like wall these off before, but there's some cameras I have that are just like fuck around cameras.
Speaker 1:Yeah Like, got plenty of those.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I absolutely love the idea of just capturing memories on something. It's easy and it's unassuming and it's just like slide it into a pocket and go Low stakes, yeah, low stakes, um. But then I also have like a work mindset and, um, steven or Alex Soth talks about it, where he's like, yeah, I don't even break the camera out for anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Unless, I'm working on a project. Like he treats it like it's a film, yes, like he has to do pre-production before he goes out and then he's like okay, we're, we're doing this, this and this, and I know he shoots eight by 10 and he shoots a digital medium format.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, but yeah, which I would like to try to. I'd like dying to do some digital medium format, just to see what it looks like.
Speaker 2:The only time I've done I mean it's, it's really nice, but it I don't know to get to really get the benefits. I think it. I can't speak for the Fuji cameras.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I have shot on a Hasselblad digital medium format though, and you know, realistically I don't see that much of a difference, but that much there's. Like the Hasselblad color has its own like absolute appeal to it, like some of the photos that you talk about. That just looks so real.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Hasselblad, kind of nails, that, yeah, but some of the like sony 35, yeah, sensors honestly get pretty freaking close, yeah. So like, yeah, maybe you can't zoom all the way in, or but yeah, I don't know it digital medium format seems like it's still finding its way yeah again, I can't speak for this the fuji. I would imagine, though the fuji, I don't know, I've Fuji color. Science has always given me like a fake feeling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it just doesn't feel of the world Synthetic a little bit, a little bit, and we're probably, I'm probably going to get a little bit of. I don't mean that as a slight to Fuji, but for me not slight to fuji, but for me not for me, like it just always has a matt's determined to keep that camera, I've always gotten a bit of a of a fake yeah just something. There's something about it.
Speaker 1:It's just barely perceptible and I this is crazy to say I have, other than with from my fuji film digicams. I have never looked at a fuji um mirrorless uh dslr medium format. Never seen an image, uh, like a raw image off an sd card.
Speaker 2:I know a lot of people that love the little fuji x100s. Yeah, um, I've had two100s Both times. They kind of I had the X-Pro. I know plenty of people that swear by that thing, just not for me. I know plenty of people that swear by the medium format. I don't have any experience with it. Yeah, I want to try one. Yeah, I'd be interested If Fuji wants to. No, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1:Even if it's one of the older ones. Um, you know, those are still going for 1500 or so for a body, from what I remember, and then of course lenses on top of that adds quite a bit. But um, I just want to try one and see what.
Speaker 2:We'll see what I think I think, though, like the, the gist of it all is just, yeah, some realizing what you're trying to do and then matching the tool to that, because, yeah, the, the four by five, sits up there most of the time and I probably need to break it out. Make sure you know I kick the, kick the rust off of it.
Speaker 1:But yeah, um, do you have a 120 camera? I know that you have the adapter with the 4x5, but do you have something that's yeah, I have an adapter for it.
Speaker 2:I don't have a medium format camera. Honestly, I just never I would have the rolly still. I'm afraid this is like a bit of a technical conversation. We've probably lost any of our core listeners that don't care about photography. But talk about your feelings, guys. I loved the Pentax. We've probably lost any of our core listeners that don't care about photography.
Speaker 1:Talk about your feelings guys.
Speaker 2:I loved the Pentax 6-7 II. I got rid of it, though, because it was so digitally reliant. It just scared me a little bit. I mean, yeah, you've essentially got a $2,000 time bomb that's hard to insure, right, exactly. I'm like I'm good, I don't, I don't have anything. I think I'm gonna take the um there's.
Speaker 2:There's never really, because if I need quality to that level, like if I want to shoot four by five film, I can shoot that like the only time I really ever used four by five film. I used it like some people do projects with it and things like that and.
Speaker 2:I just never really. I found that my workflow never really aligned with with a one 20. Yeah, um, and I think I just said four by5, but yeah, it never aligned with 120. Like I'd never. I've done some, you know, shoots with 120 and it's cool. But I'm like, okay, I think between you know, the Sony, the Leica and the 4x5, I could get anything I needed, yeah. And then as soon as I figured that out, I was like, okay, like the two favorite Hasselblad just never got used, and so that had the film back in the digital back. That was that was great. But again, that was that was a camera where it's like, okay, the primary camera is just sitting in a box most of the time, right Cause you really don't want to take that out.
Speaker 2:Like that's like six syndrome times 10 for me so that just sat in a box most of the time, right Cause you really don't want to take that out. Like that's like six syndrome times 10. Yeah, I mean so that just sat in a box unless it was like a professional shoot and it was actually kind of a pain in the ass to use on. You know, professional shoot Cause most like, let's be honest, unless you're a like a full-time fashion photographer or something especially. And you can dictate everything about your shoots.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like it just wasn't like the autofocus isn't what it needs to be. It was just kind of I don't know, so I didn't use it. It was such a cool camera but it just would sit in the in the Pelican all the time. Then I got the Sony and it's like God, this, I can use this thing for YouTube. I love the image on the video. I love the image on the video. I love the image on the photos. It's so easy to set up and to use and then also, if you have a Sony that you break out like four times a year, it's much less of a of like a drain on your conscious.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Easy to repair each, super easy to ensure because it's brand new.
Speaker 1:And you're how much you covet it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, it's total beater. If you need it to be yeah, it's a yeah.
Speaker 1:Not that this is a little harsh, but like a Timex versus a Rolex, you know, yeah, timex is a touch harsh because Sony, I think, is not that Timex is bad or it's just. It's like a Seiko versus a Rolex. Yeah, makes a quality, and timex makes a great watch too like seiko makes a super quality watch.
Speaker 2:Maybe casio like maybe the finishing is not as perfect, right, but hey, watch out, I'm wearing a casio right now no, it's like maybe maybe the finishing is not as perfect, but it's. You know you. You've still got a super reliable movement. You've got really high level of craftsmanship. You've got there's a lot of experience that went into making that watch yeah and you know it's gonna never let you down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's like yeah, you pay for the rolex, and then people be like oh my god, it's not a role, but then I find this true, like the watch metaphor is a really good one actually, yeah, like I don't. I don't own a rolex, I don't want a Rolex.
Speaker 1:Like.
Speaker 2:I would feel weird, Like somebody is like oh my God, is that a Rolex? Like they're going to think differently. Either that's like putting you at a higher place or putting you at like I don't like that person. Yeah, it's just, it's not worth it for me, like it has too much so and it has too much. And plus, rolex is so above themselves at this point. They're just complete luxury. Nobody should spend over $5,000 on a watch. I mean, I guess some people can, but that's insane for most people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you're shooting with a camera.
Speaker 2:That's that much money. And I mean Leica's toe in the line. Leica makes me feel a little weird, like dude.
Speaker 1:I was looking they need to settle down just a little bit because it's like you're getting to a point where you're like Rolex.
Speaker 2:When Rolex first came out it was a hyper reliable, quality watch, yeah, and they still make the best watches like. They are great, they are absolutely stellar quality. They've got all the history. It makes you feel a type of way when you see that and you look down and that's on your wrist and that's what you're paying for. But a lot of that it only costs so much to make a watch. So a lot of that is just goodwill, brand reputation, and Leica is starting to kind of do the same thing. And the problem with Leica it seems like the quality is not complete. I'm not saying Leica quality has fallen off, but it does. I mean I hear more and more they're making it harder for independent shops to repair. There's just some moves that are being made. Where Leica is kind of they're doing a bit of the Rolex thing.
Speaker 1:They're leaning into what has happened Consumer-driven marketplaces, Especially since photography in general has gained some cultural prominence because of social media and YouTube and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:I think that's helped create a resurgence for the like a brand, because people started getting like a cameras inexpensively and obviously that, you know, fueled but it's like the reason that like is so freaking great and the reason Rolex was so great is because it's like it was like Rolex was a watch that you could buy and confident. Yeah, the moment you bought that watch, I'm gonna hand this down to my son, right, and he's gonna hand this to his son, that's right. Or daughter and you know, to their, their child, like it was a watch that was gonna last for generations. Yep, the m4 is 50 years old. That camera is a solid brick. Yeah, you know, I I got it serviced. It works amazing. It's flawless, like. That's what. That's what was so good about a leica camera, and that needs to be the focus yeah and like mark it up a little, but don't like.
Speaker 2:Nobody wants to spend 10k on a camera dude m11p.
Speaker 1:I was looking at those after watching a couple videos.
Speaker 2:It's 9500 without a lens, I'm like I guess they expect a lot of like that needs in my head, like that's like 5k max. I understand inflation and things like that.
Speaker 1:Production costs but nine thousand, that's insane.
Speaker 2:I'm like I who's who's gonna? Like I know a lot of people do it, but that is for the typical person. Like why is that? Why is that a level that they're making unattainable? Like what was great about Rolex at a point was it was attainable.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And as soon as it becomes unattainable, it just becomes a thing for rich people to flash how much money they have.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's like like that's its own product segment, but like I hate it that you have these products that gain a reputation for quality and like luxury quality, sure, whatever, but quality, yeah, performing a great tool. And then they're like actually you know what, we're just gonna go serve this luxury market and they forget about where they came from and the luxury market is the most fickle market.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so once you start to serve that, you're serving something that's probably gonna go away at some point yeah like they're gonna move on and so, yeah, if you've lost all the people that actually you bought a leica because you could take that thing to war and come back with it, yeah, yeah, like now it's just a status symbol. I mean, I blacked out that and that's another reason why I hated the M6 so much is because it drew attention. Yeah, even the M9 does a little, but I've blacked it out completely. Yeah, I just yeah, well, there was, we were in the old market last.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just yeah, it's well there was, we were in the old market last year and I saw a guy had like a, like a, and forget me if I get the model number wrong, but it was one of the older pre um M series. It was like the three F or something like that from the early fifties and like I just knew it was a Leica. You know, of course I went up, you know it was that and that was one that they had an estate sale like a few weeks earlier. Now he didn't buy that one, but there was one at an estate sale a few weeks earlier.
Speaker 2:I remember this yeah.
Speaker 1:And I chatted that guy up a little bit cause I was just curious about how he got it or what you know what the deal was. But yeah, it, you know, it, it, it, it draws attention and, um, the you know a little bit of the rarity of them, especially around here, even though there are a few people we know who shoot with, uh like a cameras and you know.
Speaker 1:I have a Leica, but it's like kind of a joke, like the X1. Um, but you know, at the same time it's also, you know, also well-made and feels substantial and all that. But I will certainly eventually pass that one along and try to get something else. But unless some massive financial windfall happened, I'm not even thinking about it.
Speaker 2:It sucks. I don't see any reason why this camera should cost more than like yeah, like four thousand dollars yeah like I mean, put the product, what are the production costs on those if they release the production costs and they're like, no, we're actually spending seventy five hundred dollars to produce these, yeah, which, if they did, that's a little crazy yeah, I don't know very much about camera production and what the supply chain looks like and things like that.
Speaker 1:Well, and then the fact that they're hand-built, and who knows what the labor costs are to have those?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I don't want to justify it, it just seems a little ridiculous. Yeah, it seems like they are. I mean, rolex is releasing watches and you can't like some of the new releases you can't even get unless you have, like a intimate relationship with an authorized dealer or something and it's just.
Speaker 2:It's just turning into status symbols. It's turning into something like have and have, not, yeah, and that's disgusting, and like it's really turned modern leica off for me, like I had the SL2S and I sent it back because it was just like it was the nicest, soulless camera I've ever owned.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 2:Like it was a solid hunk of metal. Yeah, I loved it with. It worked. You use it with.
Speaker 1:When did you have?
Speaker 2:that Probably right before I got this. So when I before I got the Sony, I got the like SL2S.
Speaker 1:I don't even remember, I don't even think I saw it.
Speaker 2:I was going to use it was. It was a very short, it was like a two week thing and I was going to use that instead of getting a Sony Cause. I was like, oh, I really I had faith in like his quality. And then I had a conversation, um, with the guy who repairs in force and is like pretty well respected in the repair community. He was just talking about some of the things that like it was doing with the independent repair shops and how they were kind of like part shortages and things like that.
Speaker 2:And then I started shooting with the camera and I'm not maybe it was influenced, maybe it wasn't, but I didn't like the camera and I'm not. Maybe it was influence, maybe it wasn't, but I didn't like the photos. The photos just like the color was weird to me and I don't I don't like to mess with my stuff that much. I don't like to play around like I like to. I don't know you can do presets and but I just I didn't like it. It didn't really strike me in any kind of way. Yeah, and I um, the video capability was cool, but it was fine and I loved how it looked with like, uh, god it. The real sweet spot is like that camera with like a 50 millimeter manual lens. There's just like something magical about how that feels and I was like that's really cool and um, but yeah, I mean, I just it didn't. It didn't do anything for me, it was just kind of like an empty camera.
Speaker 2:So I shot with it for a couple weeks and and sent it back and got the sony. The sony actually does speak to me. Which right. That's like the funniest thing.
Speaker 1:I wonder if it too, if it's like sort of slightly lower expectations and then when it exceeds them it creates an emotional connection.
Speaker 2:I like the color of the sony way more. I hold that camera and it just feels like a tool. Yeah, like if, honestly, that's what's funny about it is, sony makes I feel like what, like, like sony is an accessible, high-quality product.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's like that's what I expected out of Leica. And now you know you get out of it, but the Sony is like it does feel like flimsier, like the Leica was literally carved out of a solid piece of metal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my buddy, brandon, has the SL2S and I held it a few times because I've met up with him.
Speaker 2:It's a solid chunk of titanium. Yeah, is it titanium magnesium? Yeah, I'm not sure exactly, but it is a substantial camera. Now, every time.
Speaker 1:I hold the Leica I'm like, wow, there's a real heft to this, but that one is like bam.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is a lot. I don't know what it was, but it just didn't do it for me and I sent it back. I haven't had a modern Leica camera. Both mine are older.
Speaker 1:Well, I get that feeling, not the feeling about the SL2S, but just sort of the substantialness. When I first got my hands on my Canon F1, the new F1, I was like wow this feels really well made.
Speaker 2:I talk all the time about my ADD, which is right over there.
Speaker 1:Like the.
Speaker 2:ADD camera that I. That was like the first, I guess, like camera that I used for professional work and any kind of thing like that. And God, I still love that camera. Yeah, it's just, you know it's.
Speaker 2:it's not going to win any awards for like beautiful design, but well you know and some of these things end up having a soul to them and I think part of that is like getting back to the origin. The beginning of our conversation is just what you use them for and you start to make that attachment, but it's also just in order to get to that stage of just using it. You have to. I don't know. It's just harder to do when the camera costs $15,000, with the lens and that's. It's just like it's harder to take the watch and oh, I'm going to go into water with it. Yeah, If you know that it gets fucked up, you're out $1,500 because you have to send it to get it repaired.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:By an authorized repair and Leica's doing the same thing with that. Like you can't just send it to an independent repair shop, you have to send it to leica. Yeah, and we know how that goes because I sent the m6 there and it took him a year, a year, a year, literally a year point to point to get that camera repaired.
Speaker 1:I wonder, not a not a complex repair. I wonder too, since it's older, if they put make that a lower priority, like we're gonna. Somebody just bought an m11p for nine thousand dollars and the screen's got a like a dead pixel. Like we're gonna.
Speaker 2:Maybe we're gonna prioritize that because still and they were great, they were very communicative and like, but but still it cost a lot and the service was shitty. Yeah, and I was not impressed. Yeah, I don't want like, if that's your only camera I mean, I know people that shoot Canon and they'll they'll turn around their service in a week yeah, I think they actually have a thing where you can pay for it and it's expedited. It's like Apple.
Speaker 1:I got to look.
Speaker 2:I had to send my MacBook in for a repair the other day.
Speaker 1:You did and it was?
Speaker 2:this was like a month ago. Yeah, it was a sticky key.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:But it was literally back three days.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it was like it seemed fake. Well, because you shipped it off right, yeah, yeah, you just go on.
Speaker 2:I've done that once and it was incredibly fast, I've got the whatever prepaid shipping, yeah oh my god, like take notes, like yeah, like it was incredible yeah and so if you're gonna pay, you know these and maybe maybe they do prioritize them. 11. But yeah, I don't know we're gonna clip this. This is a perfect clip, like I've gotten above their raisin Right. It's just insane. Like I just don't see the appeal.
Speaker 1:So what ends up bubbling up with me as far as the feelings go is certainly not any sort of like anti, you know. It doesn't make me be like, well, I'm anti-Leica and I'm going to go look for something else.
Speaker 1:I certainly makes me embrace my QL 17 because I'm I'm, you know, I feel like and not saying that that's just as good of a camera, as you know, this 35 millimeter Summicron with a, you know with an M4 body or an M6 body or whatever like that, but I'm, I part of me is also like I feel, like with my eye and judgment of what I photograph, I can help make up some of the difference in quality? Yeah, especially. You know what can I? How many more photos can I take by saving three to $5,000? Yeah, but then even something like you know the coveted Mamiya 7 for 120. You know electronic range finder that everybody gets nervous about, partially because of the cost, but also once it's once.
Speaker 2:It's once you start, once you start shooting with it too, though, like I'll give leica one thing, like even their new cameras, those things you feel like you could go to war with them still yeah, they're, they're solid, it's like a rolex, you feel like you can go to war with that. Yeah, like the Mamiya seven is a flimsy camera.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That camera feels like it's going to crack in your hands. The lenses feel cheap.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe like yeah, that just so when I found the the Connie, the Konica, connie Omega rapid uh at that estate sale, the medium format range finder press camera, I feel emboldened to like what can I do with this $100 camera compared to the Mamiya 7? When I take this out and go make pictures. Is it really going to be such a monumental difference between the two?
Speaker 2:I'm telling you, as far as the photo goes, yeah, I will say, though, the reason, like mamiya, is a shite camera in the hands.
Speaker 2:In my opinion, yeah and I know there's people who love mamiya. But that lens like specifically I think I had the 80 is one of the most unbelievable renderings I've ever seen on a piece of film. Wow Like, and you see, you can pick out Mamiya seven photos because of that lens. It's so impressive, you can pick out photos and, like you could do a you know a selection of eight photos and you could probably pretty accurately pick out which of them are the Mamiya seven. I don't know what it is about. That lens is like the peak of of analog rendering.
Speaker 1:I think and I have to, I'd have to train my eye better for that because I feel, like you, you can assess that stuff. I don't. I think you and I have to. I'd have to train my eye better for that because I feel like you.
Speaker 2:You can assess that stuff. Um, I don't, I think you would be able to assess it. I would spend some time just looking at Momias. I don't know what it is about that lens man and I. I might be off a little bit in saying that, but I'd be curious. Yeah, I would be too camera is like.
Speaker 1:That's why I gotta fire off the the rapid, because a lot of stuff that I read about it and the lens that is on that camera. A lot of people were like this for the equivalent camera for hasselblad back in the day. Like this camera holds its own because, of the lens from conica yeah, it holds its own with the hasselblad and you know how it renders and sharpness and edges and all that stuff um, I don't have as much of a of an eye for that.
Speaker 1:See, my problem is when I look at the photograph, I just look at what the subject matter is yeah and and I'm not saying that that's the right way.
Speaker 2:I think that's how most people do it and I think that is absolutely the story.
Speaker 1:Yeah like you know, people like yeah, but you see the chromatic and this and this, I'm like I don't you know, see, but yes, if I if I, if it's pointed out, I see it. But I don't even like on a second or third viewing, like if we watched a scorsese scene and someone's like you know you're watching the story, but then you're like, yeah, do you see how he's got the light here? And then this, there's a little bit of reflection. You know, know, whatever, like you know, I don't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like it takes several watch the viewings or looking at a photograph to like start looking at. Maybe a technical anomaly or something you know.
Speaker 2:And I just some. There's something about it, though, that just when you get the right subject matter.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Just how it renders color. How it. I mean, and you're rendering to a piece of film, right? So I don't I yeah, I don't know, maybe I'm talking up that lens and I think what you just said is how it should like. You need to focus on that when you're creating the work. I think people like like us us like to get into those weeds, though at a certain level of like, I don't know, maybe part of it is just looking for novelty.
Speaker 1:Well, that, and I think you know, like, I feel, like you hear, you know, people that get so much experience and so much mastery of the craft can get into the weeds with that stuff in their mind. It makes me think of those instances where it's um what do they call it like?
Speaker 1:um, where you almost want to go toward back to it's not new brain or baby brain, but like beginner's mind yeah, beginner's mind, that's what it is that you want to sort of unlearn all of that stuff so you can see it more for the essence. Now I'm looking at stuff because of inexperience. I have not shot on all these different lenses and cameras and shot film and done this and really looked at the details, side-by-side comparisons done, testing, like what does this lens render? Like literally take the photo of the same thing with two different cameras side-by-side and really try to like a camera test from PT right, like that kind of level of what does this image look like? Great video.
Speaker 2:Great, phenomenal video.
Speaker 1:And I would love to have the resources to be able to do that kind of thing, to think about a photo project and be like, well, what film stock am I gonna use, what camera am I gonna use? Or line of cameras, because I'm going to shoot four by five, eight by ten and thirty five, because I want a range of resolutions, and all this stuff. I you know, I would love to do and we do.
Speaker 2:I think you do do that on on video more probably, yeah, and I mean just especially your experiments with look let's not act like you're unfamiliar territory here, because this is the guy that's building a 2009 Mac so he can digitize, so I can hold the VHS footage, yeah, like that's a level of care I think a lot, a lot of people don't, yeah?
Speaker 1:And so I can analog guys, my digital stuff, to make a, a vhs of the opposite of what most people are trying to do. Right, yeah, yeah absolutely well and yeah, getting into stupid stuff where I'm like all right, let's film an episode of studio sessions and then put it on vhs and then let's digitize the vhs. No, but that's.
Speaker 2:That's the level of that's the level that you're you're getting into. I mean, you talk about you. You mentioned pta and um. I mean like they shot on television cameras for, like the game show sequence and magnolia like yeah because they wanted it to be accurate, right like that is a level of detail. Yeah, and you know you talking about like I think it will work its way into the photography. I don't.
Speaker 2:Some people just never get the bug yeah they just get what they like and they stick with that. Um, I do think it's worth experimenting, though yeah if you, if you can manage to like find the means and like look for deals, don't be impatient about it, but experiment, and you're not going to do it all in a year. It's going to take a decade plus. But yeah, you're trying all these different cameras and you've got a vast knowledge of cameras and lenses, especially in the digital digital camera and, like older phone camera range especially the feeling of using it and again, they know it's like some people might want to review video on a YouTube channel about like this Did you cam versus that?
Speaker 1:Did you camera, this sensor versus this, that sensor? To me, so much of what I'm learning is what is my emotional experience using it and then looking at the image it creates and I don't get into the technical too much with that stuff, other than I don't like this lens at its widest, like this one.
Speaker 2:It's too wide for me.
Speaker 1:I have to go in because I'm getting too much curvature. I don't want to deal with getting light room, even though they're not going to have that specific lens to like on, yeah, distort it. You know all that kind of stuff. I'm like that's not something I'm interested in. But you know, sort of picking up on those things, what, what things in the experience of using this camera creates a little bit of a or a negative or a disappointment, or I don't really like that.
Speaker 1:And then you know what makes me flip shit, because I've got a shutter button in the front and I can shoot TLR, even though one of my is as sort of shallow as it is. One of my negatives is I just don't like the look of that camera. Like it doesn't. It's not like a. The design and part of that's the color and the word tough on the front.
Speaker 1:Like it's got, it has like a weird it's charming you and like it's, it's cheap enough yeah that you could totally kind of van nice at it like, take a file to that if you don't like it you know, paint that a different color, like you could totally do that.
Speaker 2:Yep, and then make it yeah, make it your own. Yeah, absolutely so let's land this. This is the. This is the camera episode.
Speaker 1:Who knew we would have an episode talking about photography and cameras? We tried to do it last time and we just kept talking.
Speaker 2:We were like we're not allowed to do that. And then we did it again. Let's land this shit plane. How do we tie all this together For anybody? That's so many people. This is just ASMR.
Speaker 1:At this point, I think you know, I, I think talking some specifics about the tools and our experience with the tools and and just giving sort of nuts and bolts, practical reactions to them. You know, I think I think for me, if I'm listening to this episode I'm kind of cross checking what we're saying with what, how I feel about the tools that I use.
Speaker 1:And this is, I think, relatable not just to cameras. What I'm coming at this conversation with is I tend to focus on my emotional experience with the process, with the craft, with the tools. Um, how does it make me feel? Um?
Speaker 2:all that stuff Same, and also I think on the emotional side I'd say also just the. I know I've got something good. You were walking around last week and I was shooting with the M nine.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you were shooting with that Yep and there were moments where I'd look down and be like God, I fucking love this camera, like I just love this camera. And I think that's important, yeah, important, yeah, like you know, you spend so much time and I I think it's like the tools are tools, but love the tools, you have right, because they're gonna I think they are gonna work their way into the work a little bit. We've had conversations before, too, about just like using things that elevate the experience yeah just how can you elevate that experience a little bit.
Speaker 2:And this is I. Before we get off, I do kind of want to ask you, I want to, I want to get here what you think about the whole just one comment yeah, first, yeah.
Speaker 1:So you have the question yeah, yeah, okay, hold the question what I love about where we both are and let's not go down the rabbit hole. But I just want to say I love, when we're out watching, that you found your the one, like you found your your camera systems. You've got the two cameras, yeah, and I'm still dating all these cameras.
Speaker 1:I'm still trying to figure it out right, still in the dating phase now I think ultimately I'm going to have probably like four cameras that I love, where you might have two, maybe I'll have five and they're a little bit more.
Speaker 2:you saw my dating phase though. Yeah it, it was a shit, a chaos yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly, and I'm in in that world right now. Yeah, I'll wrap up. Uh, I found my soulmate in uh F1 for a specific situation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So when I go out to do more environmental, hold on.
Speaker 2:This is Hold on. We're not going to just pass over the fact that that camera's all black. No, no surprise there, that is Matt's camera. You could pick that out of a lineup.
Speaker 1:I love this thing, and the whole time I'm shooting with it, I'm like I'm struggling to find something other than not having a 35mm lens.
Speaker 2:If you could get a mod of that same camera with a digital sensor in the back and then have a digital version and an analog, would you I?
Speaker 1:mean yeah, why not?
Speaker 1:incredible yeah, so, so this is set right, um. And then you know, I look at, um, a rangefinder. Still haven't found the rangefinder that I love. I love the qler that I love, I love the QL 17, but I think the 40 mil lens is a little bit, a little bit too tight for me for the range finder. Um, and then you know, medium format I'm going to start exploring that a little bit. And then, you know, little pocketable, digicam I, I, you know, I I love my Canon power shots that have the positive film preset, but I'm working on a digicam experience, like with this flip up screen on the Olympus, to to find the right camera for street photography. Digicam, street photography, that, um, that that just does what I need, both my emotional experience and then that thing it creates in the people I'm photographing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, I love the Rico, but if I'm constantly battling dust on the sensor and I have to take it into a dude, you're going to have to photo and you've got to sell it to me.
Speaker 2:That's it.
Speaker 1:I wonder if I need to see if Rico has a send it in and get it clean thing, because I would rather send it to them than take it apart. I watched a couple of videos and it's not. It's not for the faint of heart to get in there and clean off the sensor. Yeah, so that's so. So I love that you are. You know you are settled for now and I am really enjoying I still look, though, like you know, I wouldn't.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't mind a rico, that's really the only one I can see. Like I don't really look for photo cameras, I'm not gonna lie. I just I don't have any need, that's not served right um. But occasionally I'll look at like handy cams. Yep, handy cams interest me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I just love the high functionality. I wish that was a market that got served better Low-end cinema cameras interest me. Yep, which, now that I've kind of got this very custom build, I don't know if that itch has kind of not come up. It just depends. We'll shoot with this and see.
Speaker 2:I'm talking about like the black magic kind of the original pockets yeah camera which we now have between the two of us, three of yeah, no and like that's cool, though like they're they're not as precious, yeah and um, you know, yeah, I'm always open, but yeah, I just don't have the gotta have this, this gotta like I know I, this is something and I I fight with this constantly because I always tell myself, like you just gotta find the right one, and it's a terrible mindset to have because it prevents you from kind of being happy with what you have in some sense.
Speaker 2:Always questing, yeah, but I do know myself enough, and not everybody's like this, but I do know my like. Once I find it, I'm usually there. Yeah, like it's happened to me with you know every important thing in life like you're questing until it's like oh, yeah and some people don't have that and some people do. So I think, like the key is to know yourself and if, if you're just always questing yeah one.
Speaker 2:You can either buy into that and just enjoy the journey, enjoy the quest like, hey, this is just or or just be like you know what. I'm just gonna make the most of what I have if that's the more financially responsible or whatever. But if you're somebody who knows, like once I find the right one, I'm there yeah then, yeah, try to find it and you know what?
Speaker 2:what That'll change. Everything will probably. I don't know that M4 is going to outlive us and our kids and our kids' kids, probably. So the question I had for you is we were talking about elevating experience. What is your take on luxury goods? Where do you draw the line? Because we both like quality products.
Speaker 2:I think We've talked about products and consumerism and all of these things. Like what is? Because we both like quality products, I think, and we've talked about products and like consumerism and all of these things, and I think this is like an interesting topic to explore. Like, where do you draw the line? Like what do you? I mean you buy, you've got a $10,000 desk set up. Yeah, if not more like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I splurged on, like you know, just the studio, just the studio display, which you know you could argue is a luxury monitor. Um, even though they have one, that's even three, you shoot your live streams on a three times. Yeah, c300, yeah, what do?
Speaker 2:you draw.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't know if that's a luxury no, when I think of luxury, I mean you love, you love your glasses, you love your you know, that's something that you've talked about like gives you a lot of joy yeah
Speaker 1:your sunglasses, your ray-bans, oh, yeah, yeah, which um well, and I think you know the things that you've referenced. I think some people might be going. Well, I really think of luxury. As you know rolex and louis vuitton and you know gucci and like the really really high end stuff. A Birkin bag Not that I would have one of those, unless they make men's bags, but stuff like that. I mean, I think it's twofold. And I say this to Aaron you guys just went out to my wife, you guys just went out to dinner Friday night, right, and I sit there and I go. You know, I'll tell my wife, when it comes to dining out, like I really appreciate more luxurious restaurant experiences.
Speaker 2:Holy cow dude too, I know. Like we haven't talked about that yet.
Speaker 1:Well, maybe we'll, maybe in the after show, but I think my wife, who just has such a good um, has a good uh read of uh authenticity and I know that's like a trendy word that people throw around, but I mean this like in the, like a truthfulness, you know like somebody who might want that stuff because, like you said, the social status that being a part of that communicates, versus the actual, true, pure desire to experience it.
Speaker 1:Tell her all the time somebody has dedicated their life to this thing and I get to experience it. I tell her all the time somebody has dedicated their life to this thing and I get to experience it. So when I think about a luxury good, I think if this company like it is their soul, it is their dedication, their passion and they care about high quality materials and craftsmanship and a lifetime warranty, guarantee, all that stuff. I want in on that and I will pay a premium to get in on that. So, for example, artifact bag company here in town um, everything's handmade. He goes out and selects vintage fabrics and, um, I mean, every detail is poured over.
Speaker 1:Uh, you know, is it still accessible to someone like me? Yes, versus a very expensive bag like a Lully Faton or something like that. But you know it was a $350 messenger bag and I'm like this person is dedicated to their life, this is their life's work and I can get in on it and kind of early Cause, what if they get big or whatever? Um, and that's what excites me about it. Uh you, um. You mentioned earlier, with Leica and Rolex as an example. Your interpretation a little bit is that they're moving towards.
Speaker 2:We're aware of what our brand means to people now oh, Rolex has moved towards it 100%.
Speaker 1:They have chosen a direction and so Rolex has embraced it. Leica is maybe, at least in your estimation, uh, flirting with it. Um, and I'm not quite as aware of that to comment yes or no, but, um, yeah, but. But then people that are looking at a luxury brand or something that's really expensive because of the status that it has with it, um, and what it communicates to the outside world when they walk around with it, uh, I am definitely, you know more, more along the lines of what that mission is, what that connection is to caring so much about what you make, dedicating your life to it, and I want in on it. And, uh, you tend to find those people, um, making things that are more expensive.
Speaker 1:It's it's a, it's a two $300 dinner. It's, um, you know, a sommelier who's dedicated their life to understanding why it's knowing what uh?
Speaker 2:do you know what's the difference between tree bark and yeah?
Speaker 1:And for me it's. You know the experience of that. It all sounds fancy and bougie and you know all that stuff, but at the same time I am happy to roll up through the McDonald's drive-thru and grab a large fry after we do Friday night photography. Like I don't, and those are the people I like most. Like when you meet a chef who's like, who's one minute, like having like strawberries flown in from Japan that are $300 a pint, but then he's, you know, talking about his favorite breakfast at Waffle House.
Speaker 2:That's most chefs right. It's like after they're so sick of it, after the end of the day they're going to get. That's the irony right. They're going to get McDonald's and a cigarette. Yeah, it's where do you draw that line? Do you have cause? That's what I'm trying to like find. That's the question I keep asking myself, Like it's getting to a point where the idea of some of these things is like embarrassing Example. The idea of some of these things is like embarrassing example.
Speaker 2:I mean the rolex yeah like, like, I I always like, I always thought it'd be cool to have a rolex and then I had such respect. And now I'm like getting to a point where I'm like I don't know if I would ever want that. Yeah, because of the baggage that it carries, and there's an entire segment of the population that doesn't see that as baggage. But I don't agree or support what that stands for in a lot of ways and I don't want Laika to become that, because I really do love like what they, what they've made in the past. But you know, I I see that. So I'm like, where do you draw that line like? And I I think there is an answer here of like, like. There is a point where how much does it cost to produce the product? Right?
Speaker 2:and then you know, maybe you charge three, four times that production cost because of the years of experience, because it's got a lifetime commitment, because it is, and that's where it's like luxury yeah there is a lifetime behind this and it's like, okay, that's, you know, we last couple episodes we've been drinking like whiskeys, yeah right, and it's like some of the best ones are kind of in that middle range where it's like it's not the cheapest but it's not a mcallen 35, it's not 30 grand, it's yeah, exactly, it's not, and it's.
Speaker 2:It's not even like you know, 200 a bottle, or it's like 50 to 70 bucks a bottle or something, and it's like so you've got the decades or centuries of experience, whatever, but it's you know. So, yeah, where does that line? And I'm trying to find this out myself.
Speaker 1:I don't have an answer To me, it's just a gut check. And it's almost on a case-by-case basis.
Speaker 2:I love what you said about Aaron, of just authenticity check yeah, yeah. Like, we went to this, um, I went to this bagel place. What was it called? I almost want to give it a shot, cause it's so good, but Brugers, no, no, no, no, brugers is great, love Brugers, but it's an Omaha place. Oh, okay, um, they've been around forever. And their place is just straight, like they haven't changed it. That's exactly right.
Speaker 2:Like okay so some of my favorite coffee shops I've ever been in are like I don't know why. Yeah, they're typically on the West Coast.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Northern California, Seattle area. But you go in and you feel like you're stepping into the 90s. But not, it's, they're, but it's not a nostalgia thing.
Speaker 1:No right.
Speaker 2:If anything, it's just they Blue Line gives me this vibe. Yeah, yeah, Blue Line's good All they give a shit about is just how can we have a good quality product, keep things and it's just completely itself.
Speaker 1:They're not precious about it.
Speaker 2:They're not trying to be anything, they're completely perfectly themselves. We went to this bagel place and like, yeah, you spend like 15 bucks on breakfast and you know we sit down, unlimited coffee refills and we we hung out for an hour and a half.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's just perfect, yep, and that, to me, is just as great of an experience as going to you know the restaurant the night before and having this meal by this chef who is committed their entire life, because both of these are these. It's a product of somebody who's committed their entire life and they're not trying to be. I just it's great when you feel like they're not trying to pull something off, like I think it's.
Speaker 2:They're not trying to pull something. They're not trying to. It's not coming from ego to you yeah, it's, there's just there's something about it where it's just like it's. This is what I do, and here it is, and like with rolex and now with like it, it feels like they're trying to like there's some bullshit right, it's just there's bullshit.
Speaker 1:You know, even company ego, like, oh well, we're big shit, so let's like, like it's. It's not that we could charge $5,000 for this camera and be a wildly profitable company, but people are willing to pay $9,500. Well, let's charge $9,500 because we're so sought after. I'm not saying that that's what Leica is doing but. If you start feeling those feelings, it becomes a problem.
Speaker 2:My bullshit radar is starting to go off with right. I'm like it is, the value is just what somebody's willing to pay or what somebody's willing to give, like that is what value is. So you can't really make an argument in that, because there's a market out there, yeah, but I just, I don know, just like cut the shit.
Speaker 1:Like be yourself.
Speaker 2:Like, what is the product? Yeah, like, the bagel place isn't trying to be oh, we need modern furniture, it's just perfect. And you know that was the first time we've been there. We felt like we discovered a hidden gem. Yeah, unbelievable, we're going to go back over and over and over. And they were perfectly themselves. There's plenty of restaurants in town that we go to and I'm just like okay, like they were trying to write just bullshit, and most of that stuff goes away eventually.
Speaker 2:But that's kind of where I draw the line of like, like artifact bags, they're just trying to make great bags.
Speaker 1:Yep. Oh well they're trying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you sell them for as much as they need to be sold for.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because you got to have a profit. You have to have a profitable company. Right, you're trying to run a business, but there's not a lot of bullshit. There's not like Louis Vuitton. You mentioned Louis Vuitton. You mentioned Louis Vuitton. I feel like a lot of those brands are just like bullshit. Now it's just more about can you get in this magazine or get on this celebrity?
Speaker 1:rather than just making something that's worth making. Yeah, You're, you're sort of you've, you've bought into your own hype and now you're, and now you're doubling down on it with, with, with that being the leader in your hierarchy of intentions to relate it back to what I try to not love.
Speaker 2:that yeah.
Speaker 1:And and not we're not going to go on this rabbit hole cause we're beyond where we should have wrapped up. But you know, to me I think about that. That's my litmus test too for working with brands on my channel.
Speaker 1:And you know the trip to Poland like I got to meet the people there cut the bullshit out of it, and not that I had concerns about motion VFX being, um, you know, into themselves or whatever. But then you meet the actual people making it and you're like, oh, you're, you're just like me in the sense of you're leading with, you're leading, you're leading um, the the making of the thing from the right place. Yeah, um, yeah, um. And same thing with uh lens distortions partnering with them. I mean, I've talked to craig numerous times and it's like, like they are not going to compromise on their core values and they and they are making things that have to pass that test of yeah, of like, what artifact bag thinks about, what patagonia thinks about?
Speaker 2:so, when you like, typically the best and this is just something that it's interesting to me typically the best products and I'm not saying this is always and this again this is product in terms of it's not just a tangible item yeah but they're just there yeah there's no well, you can get a discount if you do this.
Speaker 2:But then there's also this, and then there's this, like it's just. This is how much it costs. It's here. You can get it anytime, right, readily available. This is how much it costs, and it's here. Yep, there's no promotional tactics or there's no like, well, you got to be on the wait list and we're only doing this.
Speaker 2:And da, da, da da yeah the best stuff is just you can get it anytime it's. If there's something wrong with it, we got it. Yep, we'll fix it. Yep. Um, and this is how much it costs. Do you well? Do you do sale? No, this is how much it costs. We just it's there.
Speaker 1:I wonder honestly if if a lot of um from companies that aren't around anymore is because of that.
Speaker 2:Like the typewriters for me, like.
Speaker 1:I don't. You know, Royal isn't around, At least in my understanding is maybe they got bought up and they've been turned into something else. I'm sure they're a subsidiary somewhere, Something, yeah. But you know, it's not like you go to the like, go online and see a bunch of Royal computers, you know, like they didn't evolve into something else it's just so sought after.
Speaker 1:In my mind it's just uh it's almost like it's whatever emotions you attach to it through the experience of using it yeah is the meaning that that object has versus rolex, which is all this awareness of that brand ahead of time, and then you buy it and then you attach your feelings, but it never, it never circumvent circumvents not the right word. It never surpasses your awareness of the brand in the first place. Right shit, dude, we're gonna go but that's what?
Speaker 2:no, that's what some of these older you just opened. This is what I was hoping to get to with like this, oh my gosh just just keep going.
Speaker 1:No, this we can, we can read of these guys dying.
Speaker 2:But so meaning attached to an object yeah, we talked about like synthetic meaning. People are trying to sell meaning in the marketing yeah and then you just possess the object right when it used to be. A product was just built to last, that's right. Like like you buy a royal typewriter I fucking bought that one from 19 19. When was that they stopped producing 39? Yeah, because they had to move production to produce for the war, and which one's that corona?
Speaker 2:the smith corona, yeah yeah, and then I mean the olympia. That's 70s, early 70s. Yeah, like these objects were built to last a lifetime and so you can apply so much more meaning to the object over that. So much like, so many memories and experiences can be applied to that object, and now we make things that are meant to last for three or four years yeah and happen to be making those things that don't have a long lifespan in a time where there's less you know, experience per whatever the metric is like if it's experience per year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that number is lower than it's ever been, and the lifespan and longevity of these products is lower than it's ever been. So it used to be. You buy a watch and you're like I'm gonna attach meaning to this thing for the next 50 years and then I'm gonna going to pass it on and it's going to mean this is going to be a symbol of everything that I did Yep, and this is going to be a and I, this is my pride and my and I mean I use pride in a very like positive way this is my pride in an object and I get to experience handing that. This is my life experience. This is my life in an object, and I get to experience handing that. This is my life experience. This is my life's work here and that's somebody.
Speaker 2:And now we just make objects that are meant to be gone in a year or two and there's none of that, and I think we crave that and I think that might be a reason we go back to these old objects is because it's like we've gotten so far away from it that things aren't meant to like. We want that and we can't find that in contemporary production. No, so we have to go back to this mechanical things because we want things that we can apply experience to. And what's this? What's the alternative? Because you know the production is. I think you have people trying to apply it synthetically and sell you. Well, look, this comes with all this meaning. You don't have to apply any meaning to just put it in your thing. You know, take it to work every day and you're going to get all this experience out of it when we're desperate. Just I mean, I think objects, at the end of the day, are just like vectors. It's a vehicle, it's like toast Some people make really good toast.
Speaker 1:That's a bad example.
Speaker 2:But it's like the french fry to the ketchup. Some people are like I have shitty french fries. They're just a vehicle for ketchup, Right? Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just something to put ketchup on yeah.
Speaker 2:No, but objects are a vehicle for our life experience.
Speaker 1:Well, and they can be a vehicle for what people think of you. If you're vain and ego, like this is a vehicle to get the attention that I want, or people to think of me in a certain way because of what I possess. I think, too, objects, especially ones that are an iconic object in your life, like the CRT TV has become like your Olympia, like the Black Magic.
Speaker 1:We grab these items because they are a representation of who we are, the things that we care about, and they're going to be a part of our lives forever, and I think we crave that yeah not because of consumerism and to own as much stuff as possible, and I think we have tapped into the past because, um, we can access high quality at low prices in the past, like mid-century modern furniture, even though there are there's. You know, some places have tapped into the, the perceived value.
Speaker 2:It's all it's all starting to become but, I do think, like some people and I want to like be very clear like I think we are more wired this way than some people some people really don't, don't care yeah and I'm not saying that in a negative way some people it's like I almost, I'm almost jealous of that, or some people care about a very small we care so much about photography and film, I think, in writing yeah because it is a it's.
Speaker 2:We're so obsessed with the movement and passage of time and like being able to and this is you and I and I'm sure, several viewers just being able to almost cut a little slice of that out and preserve it means a lot to us some people that doesn't mean that much too, yeah, but to people that means a lot.
Speaker 2:To us, some people that doesn't mean that much too, yeah, but to people that means a lot to consumer. Production doesn't really line up with that. And so, yeah, I think we look into the past to find something that better lines up with that worldview, and I think you have a larger segment than it might be apparent that does care about those things. And so, yes, is it nostalgia a little bit, but not in the way that I think people think it is. It's more nostalgia in a way, like they're looking for objects that can act as a blank canvas for their experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's where you know, like Artifact Bag Company, I gravitate towards their stuff because I feel like they're towards their stuff, because I feel like they're making their stuff, even with a lifetime guarantee, and then they'll do repairs to stuff if you send it in. You know he's embracing um that mentality between an olympia typewriter, uh, you know old rolex. You know some of these brands that you know uh like, uh, um that jeans, like there's certain jean companies and it's like, well, yeah, perfect example, these Levi's have whatever that synthetic, that latex latex whatever, and the pair that I bought for $65 two years ago holes everywhere.
Speaker 1:The the things frayed.
Speaker 2:people are going towards the vintage denim because it's so hard to find denim that levi's makes one pair.
Speaker 1:I know they they have like their high-end stuff, but they make well, no, even even their high-end stuff doesn't have the.
Speaker 2:It's like it is. It's gotten contaminated, like I had to literally find it. I've worn levi's my entire life and I literally I was buying new jeans last year and just went to a different company there. There's companies out there that make them now because they've responded but that's right, it's like Levi, this amazing thing, and now they're just creating it's shit. It is shit, it doesn't. It's more comfortable, for sure.
Speaker 1:Well, and I don't prefer, you know, I would prefer the heavier denim, just because it lasts. So I asked them at the store. I said what's the? What pair of pants here is like actually made out of denim? It doesn't have the elastic stuff in there, she's like just the five oh ones. I mean like the answer was right there. Yep. Now I don't like the cut of the five.
Speaker 2:Oh, ones as much, but I still bought a pair. You have to go get it tailored to get it to fit. The thing is some people are going to be fine. If their jeans wear out in a year, they'll just buy a new pair. They don't care, it's fine. And that's fine, but to us.
Speaker 2:We love the idea of like. I like the holes. I learned how to sew a couple of years ago so I can repair stuff. That stuff is silly but it's cool. I just got my granddad's overalls and one of his shirts and the shirt is like a $15, $20 shirt and I got it repaired. There were holes in it, I got it repaired, I got it re-hemmed and I'm going to wear it probably all the time and it's like that means a lot to me and it means so much more to me than anything that I could. And some people, yeah, it's like there is there, isn't that connection?
Speaker 1:but but back to your question, that line. You know, if levi's is saying to themselves look, we make too good a quality of a gene and people aren't buying enough of them because these last for so long, let's take part of the line, the 501 line. We'll keep that the the best because that's our biggest seller, it's the most iconic, you know. The 501 button fly. And then let's start taking the other jeans, the other style numbers, and start doing the elastic thing, because sure, they might be a little bit more comfortable and we can kind of make ourselves feel better about that, but we know they're going to get tore up and ripped to shit and then people are just going to keep buying them every two to three years. And I will. I like the cut of this so much, this jean so much, that if this has holes in it in three years and I don't want that, look, I'm going to buy a new pair every three years.
Speaker 2:See, I just like they're flimsier now. It's just like I agree, they're doing the Rolex thing, they're doing the Leica thing. They're like we are such an iconic brand, people will buy us, whether it's shit or not. That's right.
Speaker 1:And so they don't care. We're aware of it and like Boeing buddy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, there's a taking that mentality and their profits are going up and their shareholders are probably very happy. But at what? But that is not gonna run, that shit's not gonna fly in the long run. No, I promise you it's, that shit is not gonna fly.
Speaker 1:It might fly for 20 years and boeing is finding out right now.
Speaker 1:Eventually it starts to fall, the sky starts to fall or the plane falls out of the sky that's and that's exactly right, and they then're going to sit there and go oh, we have to go back to the way we did things before to save our company. Why did we ever leave? Well, now we know for sure to double down on our values and if we can recover from this I was just watching the news not to go on a Boeing, but they have no plane orders right now.
Speaker 1:They owe planes, but they have had no new orders for two months yeah it's so bad that these airlines are like we're not gonna order planes from you because all the whistleblowers, all this stuff, so like well, and I'm sure they've got like a massive bill to pay to all of these hitmen.
Speaker 2:Right, they're offering all these whistleblowers but, but they're. They were an iconic brand in aviation like people like they were so revered had honestly surpassed I mean, you talk about the golden age of advertising, like the Madison Avenue age, Like they had become an icon of American culture 100%.
Speaker 1:And so then you know they and this is what we're talking about with Levi's you sort of like know that and you're like, well, now it's time to really start making some money and capitalizing on our brand identity by betraying it. Yeah, to cheapen things up and improve profits and cut corners on safety and get in tight there's a there's actually, and it's the same things happening in social media too.
Speaker 2:There's a frit that the reason is because you said, like it's okay, we got it, now it Now it's time to capitalize. Now it's time to capitalize, and there's a term for it and it slips me right now, but, yeah, terrible way to go.
Speaker 1:We'll have to remember that term and talk about it. And I think that happens with YouTubers where you're like I was part of your audience before you had a thousand subscribers, like it could happen. You know not, it will.
Speaker 2:But like yeah, you sort of like, oh, great filmmakers who are just cashing in on the check at a certain point, Well, and just sort of like losing, losing what it was that got them there in the first place.
Speaker 1:And sometimes I think it happens to an individual creator. It can happen, sometimes unknowingly, like like subconscious ego versus conscious ego, subconscious vanity, you know, like there's not like malicious intent to capitalize on stuff, but there, you know, um, I have to be careful of that because you know someone who's been in, uh, you know, has financial debt and student loans and all that stuff. I could be tempted to get cute with my shit because I want to. How do you protect against?
Speaker 2:it like is it? Is it this? Well, you have to have these conversations. I always like there's some things I know like I can count on audrey to hold me accountable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can count on you to hold me accountable, your your audience, your community, to hold you absolutely absolutely like there's and your own, just like your own litmus test when you make a decision like am I talking myself into this?
Speaker 2:because I know it's a betrayal. I feel like I make stupid decisions sometimes, though, but yeah no for sure, and we're human, we're going to.
Speaker 1:but we have to try to really ask ourselves when we're going to do things that we've never done with our work or our content. Is this crossing the line that you just talked about? Am I crossing the line and that goes back to the conversation like my buddy Eric I was telling you about in pre-show curation versus promotion, authentic work versus inauthentic work.
Speaker 2:I think that's why I have such a high level of respect in terms of artists. I was reading. Yesterday I was reading there's a new book that came out on paul mccartney yeah all of his lyrics. Yeah, I was reading through and I'm like jesus christ, like. This man has 180 classic songs.
Speaker 2:Yes, right more classic songs than jesus christ, this guy's spectacular, um, but like, like the beat, I was thinking about the beatles and I was thinking about, like, at the height of their commercial success. They zagged, yeah, and then they zagged again and he's talking about how, like, when they first, uh, after the beatles, when he, um, when he started wings, they're like performing the same 10 songs, because they just didn't have.
Speaker 2:Like this is the guy that wrote fucking blackbird and he's like, yeah, he's just like we're performing the same 10 songs in like a high school gym. Yeah, and I'm like just the the first of all, the humility to know that you're not a superstar, you're just an artist, and you're like the only thing that you contend with is not the audience, but it's the process yeah that is amazing to me.
Speaker 2:Dylan, the same way, right, the height of his popularity is like the greatest conscious folk artist of in the world breaks out the electric and causes a riot. Yeah, like that's it. That is what it means to do the thing. Yeah, can't be like you never become a victim of your success. How do you, how do you fight that? And you know it's like you can buy in, you can rolex it well, and I, I know there's plenty of people that love rolex.
Speaker 1:That I'm probably, you know I'm gonna catch, but I think you know it's the thing that comes up on this podcast all the time art and commerce. Rolex was art, they were artists and then they maybe they got into the commerce too much. Yeah, well and it's.
Speaker 2:It's like it's like oh, but it just cost that much. Like no, like, look at, like there's grand seiko. Grand seiko is like this little ignored, you know, it's like the highest level of seiko watch and I mean some of the stuff that they're doing for like under ten thousand dollars is, oh, like spectacular, completely rivals rolex, sorry well it does.
Speaker 1:They could be hungry. They're trying, they're trying, I don't love it.
Speaker 2:I don't love all of their stuff, but and part of that's like the iconography of rolex and stuff like that but it's like but they're doing it, like they're proving that it can, and there's plenty of other brands too that are doing spectacular stuff, but um yeah, just like the ability to do that like paul mccartney thing or like you know what. What got you there? Yeah and then being like, okay, but now I need to go further.
Speaker 1:My responsibility as an artist is to go further yeah that's to do something else yeah I think that's important to know when you, when you reach that it had been a golden afternoon, and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer.
