Studio Sessions
Discussions about art and the creative process. New episodes every other week.
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Studio Sessions
28. Slow Craft: Reclaiming the Creative Process
In this episode, we explored the joys and challenges of using "shitty" or outdated tools in creative work. We discussed how embracing less efficient methods and older technologies, from film cameras to typewriters to VHS tapes, can lead to unique results and greater artistic fulfillment, even if the process is slower. While recognizing that digital tools offer speed and precision, we argued that working with constraints and imperfections can spark new ideas and help us develop our own creative voice.
We also examined the role of productivity in creative work and life. We acknowledged the cultural pressures to prioritize output and efficiency above all else. However, we proposed that an excessive focus on short-term productivity can lead to burnout and limit creative growth in the long run. Instead, we advocated for balancing disciplined work with experimentation and play, trusting that this approach can sustain creativity and satisfaction over a lifetime. Ultimately, we encouraged listeners to critically examine their metrics for success and consider optimizing for personal fulfillment, even if it means taking the scenic route. -Ai
Show Notes:
Jumping the Shark - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping...
George Lucas Speech - • George Lucas Explains - What is Happi...
Camus & Absurdity - https://bigthink.com/thinking/camus-f...
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
um, we won't spend long on this, cause I know we got to keep it tight. But part of why I was saying I was coming down out of it was today. I was just a sort of assessing everything I had in there and I'm like, okay, I'm ready for the next phase, which is to build out the shelves, reorganize the whole studio, but also to to purge stuff that is not going to be around. So I went through all the VCRs, because I have three that I needed to sell and then like five that I needed to get rid of because they're not working. I don't want to fix them. I don't know how to fix them. So I just threw up on Facebook Marketplace for free five VCRs that I don't know what's wrong with them need repair.
Alex:So now that I'm like getting rid of stuff and it's not just selling it on eBay, I'm like, okay, it's beginning the next phase of this process, committed to the dump, yeah, getting this stuff out of here and now taking all of the treasures I've acquired and the tools I've put together. I got this uh old Sennheiser microphone from a thrift store and I'm like I bet you this thing's busted and not working. I recorded some audio. I had to do a ton of shit to just be able to hear it. But it totally has a cool sound to it, like a distant, weird, disembodied kind of sound. I'm like that's going to be great for some voiceovers.
Speaker 2:It had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer all right.
Matt:What are we doing?
Speaker 2:all right.
Matt:So topic I came with today using shitty tools because they're more fun. I just bought another one so so I feel like this one kind of works well into our worldview a little bit so they're more fun. I what's your example of the shitty, of the shitty tool that you bought, dude there's so many shitty tools that I use um, I mean, first of all it's it's completely subjective on where yeah, where you see, fine shit yeah, and like also what your defined objective is.
Alex:Cause shitty could be, like it's actually like a low quality product Shitty could be. I don't, I don't necessarily want low quality products into.
Matt:Like you know, a lot of the quote, unquote, shitty tools I use are probably well made.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Matt:Well, but it's it's like you know that you know if I'm I have this obsession with like quality engineering or whatever, so yeah, um, but shitty in terms of there's something else available that does more it does more, does it faster, does it easier better, faster, stronger whole thing and um.
Matt:So I I started to break this down a little bit and I guess first we'll get like a we'll kind of react to that and define our terms here. But yeah, I started to break this down. I'm like, okay, what is like this? This is coming from like we talked a little bit, but there's like a hedonism to it, like there's almost like a pleasure over utility. Right here I wrote like Epicurean philosophy, you've got like absurdism, like there's no inherent meaning to anything, so you bring your own.
Alex:Quick question. Yeah, sorry to interrupt you. Do we think of hedonism as a negative thing overall? So hedonism, that's actually a good because what I was getting at was pleasure. To me is sort of a.
Matt:I define hedonism. This is hedonistic to me, like doing this podcast, like she's going to try to go on there but she can't go this way.
Alex:Puppy, don't break the trap like I'm not I'm not necessarily talking.
Matt:I think in the pre-show I was like you know. We're not talking about cocaine and orgies yeah or you know we're not talking about like doing heroin, because it's the most pleasure we can derive from a current moment, but, um, maybe like roll that back just a little bit yeah I'm not talking about like a complete euphoric right drug experience, but just putting pleasure over this, over predefined utility, putting pleasure as the and I think I have, and we've we've talked about it before too, I think, even on this of just almost approaching, I think we've approached it from more of a business perspective of, like you and I've talked before about you know what if, you know what if we started a design company that didn't use computers?
Matt:What if we started a, you know, a production company that only used film Like there's? That is this idea kind of embodying itself in. You know, a production company that only used film Like there's?
Alex:that is this idea kind of embodying itself in you know a business model or whatever, but yeah, the only reason I asked is I have really grown personally strong to defining things as pleasure and joy, and when I hear you talk about this there are a difference between pleasure and joy for you. A hundred percent what?
Matt:is pleasure, for me is all centered. Oh, 100%, yeah, break that down.
Alex:Pleasure, for me, is all centered around ego. Joy is centered around selflessness.
Matt:Okay.
Alex:Now, it's not pure selflessness.
Matt:So that's not necessarily. It's the dominant trait.
Alex:And so joy to me, is the highest. This is a ripoff from a George Lucas thing. George Lucas has this great speech I'll put it in the show notes about the difference between pleasure and joy and that really, that was like one of those moments we talked about in other episodes. You read something, you watch something and it changes how you see the world. Right, when he defined the difference between pleasure and joy, I was like, holy shit, I get, I see it. Um, and I want to seek. You know, more often than not I want to seek joy in my life, not pleasure. So joy being more selfless, the highs aren't as high, the lows aren't as low. It's a little bit more like this, whereas pleasure is this, this this, this you chase, you, chase, chase, chase.
Alex:Joy is there's more discipline to it, there's more uh, there's more absorption of it, it's less intense. So when I think of using shitty tools to make work, I see you, I see myself as embracing the joy of the process, the craft of using it, even if there is a tool out there that's faster, cheaper, more efficient. Whatever, we are embracing joy.
Matt:So the reason I asked if hedonism is negative because I associate hedonism with pleasure seeking then I was wondering what would the word be for someone who seeks joy, the joy of something and I don't know if, if there's necessarily like, if there is that separation, when, like, I don't know how useful the separation between, like an idea of joy and pleasure would be in this case. Um, but I mean pleasure, like where? I guess what's not clear to me is where do you draw the line? Like, there's plenty of things that I do that probably are more self-serving. Um, that also you could, you know work into that classification of joy. So I don't know if that's if there's a clear enough you know separation between those two in my mind. Like I definitely get like enough, you know separation between those two in my mind. Like I definitely get like you know doing. What did I define it in pre-show? I was like things that provide pleasure without harming people right?
Alex:I think too. I think, I think you know we can certainly use the word pleasure in this instance. For me, my brain goes to. Pleasure, starts to push into a place where rational thought starts to break down for the chemical, emotional benefits of feeling good yeah, and I guess I wasn't coming out with that.
Matt:Yeah, and we're getting into the weeds here. No, no, it's.
Alex:It's good to define these things, though, um, like and the only reason was because when you throw out the word hedonism, I think culturally we typically think of that word as a negative.
Matt:Oh, they're a hedonist or you're hedonistic or whatever, the biblical view of the word.
Alex:Yeah, and that doesn't necessarily mean that our listeners or you are thinking that negative connotation, that's a meaning that I apply to it, are thinking that negative connotation, that's a meaning that I apply to it. And so, clarifying are we talking about this from a place of a positive point of view, a productive point of view, a healthy point of view, or are we talking about this as, like, pleasure seeking with shitty tools because rational thought is gone and you just want to feel good?
Matt:Yeah, I think I'm definitely approaching it from the point of, like, you know, just, maybe the absurdist view is better, like hey, there is no, there's no reason to do things a certain way, or there is no predefined like structure to anything, so you can kind of bring your own, provide your own, build your own adventure, yep. So maybe that is a more useful kind of framework to view this from. Because, yeah, it's, you know it's using a film camera. All right, you're being annoying. Go bother Matt, go bother Matt, go bother Matt.
Alex:I want dinner dad.
Matt:It's about that time isn't it.
Alex:I want to eat. Go lay down. If you feed me, I'll go away. Go lay down.
Matt:Yeah, I definitely. I think, um, you know, using film when digital would probably work faster. But then it's also kind of redefining what those outcomes are going to be, yeah, or what those outcomes need to be, um. So I mean, yeah, what do maybe we? We take a step back when I say using shitty tools because they're more fun, like, what is?
Alex:the raw response to that first thought was you, you know, again, I'm Mr Pop culture, right? Um, everybody just and this ties into George Lucas Everybody loved when the sequels to star Wars came out and they went back to shooting on film. They used puppets. Everything wasn't CG. They, you know, they kind of embrace the, you know, do it in camera a point of view, right? Um, that's, that's, that's what I think of and I think about in my own process.
Alex:Uh, how do you, how do you get satisfaction from you know, exposing actual film? How do I challenge myself to take that to the next level and not only develop my own film and learn the craft of developing your own film, even though it's way easier to send a roll off to Midwest film company and have them do it and send me the log scans. Maybe there's a real fulfillment in doing it and then making your own prints, really the entire craft of photography from start to finish, versus making the photo and then having somebody else doing what you could argue is the hard part, the more time consuming part, the more expensive part, buying your own chemicals, all your stuff, whatever. There's an estate sale this weekend that has a shitload of film, film developing tools.
Matt:Somebody who's developed a lot of that shit sucks. I will happily send that off. But um I'll do the dark room.
Alex:I won't do the uh. The other example I'll give color.
Matt:I'll do the dark room, I won't do the uh. The other example I'll give color, color only I can't do color.
Alex:Black and white is my, yeah, I've been really inspired by a couple of YouTube channels that use voiceover and they use some effects on the vocals and I sit there and I go. I can kind of reverse engineer that and you know, maybe there's a you know, some extra compression going on. There's a filter there that you know kind of makes it sound like they're talking out of a distant place. Whatever I went, I don't really want to look for the filters and the plugins and all that stuff. I'm going to get a bunch of blank audio cassettes.
Alex:When I go to a thrift store, a state sale, I'm going to stockpile all that stuff. I'm going to get this old microphone, like a sony microphone that I found, a tape recorder, like a like a battery powered old panasonic tape recorder. Plug in the mic, put a cassette in and I'm gonna record that. And then I'm gonna put a mic on that, play it back and record that. For the voiceover yeah, it's way slower, it's more time consuming, it's clunky, there's no logical argument for it in the sense of yeah, because I can record my voiceover directly into Final Cut Pro.
Alex:I can put one filter on and probably get something that has the same general effect on the audience. You could probably match it.
Matt:I mean you could probably get 100%, but what's the fun in that?
Alex:I want to get an old tape recorder and old cassettes and do it that way.
Matt:And it's funny because I'm sure that there are some people listening who. I think this is always funny, Like you see this on a lot of film videos. If you'll watch somebody that's shooting film or shooting medium format or shooting especially older digital cameras with different sensors, you could totally just do that yeah, you can just like put a, like a light room preset, and you well, I agree with that. It's like there's two p, there's two world views that that are conflicting there yeah and it's one person wants to have it just done.
Matt:Yeah, they want it to. All they want to do is the experience of of, you know, clicking the shutter and then having it and one person in, like, and both are assuming that they're seeing eye to eye, when in reality it's like look, you guys both appreciate different parts of the process.
Speaker 2:Right, that's exactly right.
Matt:And I think that's something that's core here is. Some people are going to listen to us say like using shitty tools because they're more fun and Right. That's exactly right, and I think that's something that's core here is Some people are gonna listen to us say like using shitty tools because they're more fun and they're just gonna be like why would you ever?
Matt:and it's like, well, your North Star might be efficiency, right, but this is for one and like. Think about the idea of a like. Efficiency is not the North star, it's a North star of many and you can choose what that is. So think of it from like you are looking at one way, step back, and you can look at it from you know seven different right, different lenses, but then also realizing that other people might see it yeah, entire. So, yeah, you might sit there and be like I don't understand this. I don't understand how that person, while they, they might also look at you and say I don't understand this, but it doesn't mean that that's not the best thing for each of those people to be doing.
Alex:And I had somebody in my life, you know, especially living in Los Angeles and going through post-production, who, um, you know, certainly had great creative instincts and made some really cool stuff. But this person, my buddy Nick out in LA, really focused on efficiency, reducing clicks, making the process as streamlined as possible. Um, you know, a lot of his argument was the more tools I find that make me get to that result sooner and faster. The more time I spend at home with my family, the quicker the client hears the thing that makes them feel better about the show that they're putting together, all of that stuff, which totally makes sense. And I think, now that I'm making know that that work was always being made for someone else yeah we were.
Alex:We were collaborating to help an artist achieve their overall vision for their live concert, and we were making things in service of that it doesn't make sense to shoot it on film that you're shooting or you just literally don't have time it doesn't make sense to run
Matt:it through like yeah, you know some audio filter or something a lot of times literally don't have time, it doesn't make sense to run it through some audio filter or something.
Alex:A lot of times you don't have time for that stuff, and now that I'm making stuff for myself, I realize I don't care if it's the most efficient. I want to record my voiceovers this way because it's ultimately going to have the vibe that the audience I think needs to experience, and I'm just going to step away from the work with an extra level of pride and joy in what the process was in making it. Um, and so your priorities shift and you know, sometimes there's a dark side to it for me. Me, I do like to buy shit. I like I self medicate with with buying shit.
Matt:Yeah.
Alex:And like the rush of finding something that either solves a problem or helps a vision, helps me achieve a vision, um, and even if I'm frugal with it, I get it at an inexpensive price, whatever, um that I pat myself on the back for that, but I'm like, ultimately I get a little dopamine hit when I show up at the estate sale and there's six blank, you know, audio cassettes or vhs tapes for a dollar. Like I'm gonna buy that. But you know, over time, if you accumulate 200 of these things and you're never actually going to use them all, yeah, you really need to spend 200 bucks on all that stuff to to get it, you know.
Matt:I think it's interesting and an important kind of point to make that a lot of people see things through a very commercial lens, and for good reason. I just remember, you know, go back five, six years when I was working like just working with all these different production companies and going kind of full freelance. You tell anybody, oh yeah, I shoot film. Some people are like, oh, that's cool. But especially the ones that had been around for a while, maybe they did shoot film professionally back when that was the only thing available. The response I usually got was like why do you do that? Why, and not in like a negative way?
Matt:yeah but just in like a genuine, like they only see things through efficiency and what's the quickest way and the most effective way, like they don't want to lose data. You know, oh yeah, we exposed six rolls of film and ruined a project in 1998. It's like, okay, I get it. I get why digital makes sense, but yeah, it's, it's just important to be like, like just because somebody gives you pushback, and they're like why doesn't make that the only, the only option?
Alex:so question what is the difference between someone who is compelled, attracted to um, inspired to use shitty tools, versus someone that wants efficient, simple, get the result quickly, et cetera? Is that the difference between an artist and someone who executes?
Matt:Definitely not Okay, I don't think so.
Alex:I think there's plenty of people who are artists, but they just want the tools. That yeah.
Matt:Yeah, I just think it's. There's people that enjoy using different tools and there's some people that don't. I, I, I like lensing it through kind of the. I really do like like the, the Camus idea of just absurd. Everything's absurd, like you know. Bring your own meaning and some. If that's digital and it's efficiency and it's quickest from point A to point B and that's what gets you fired up, run it.
Matt:Yeah, send it and if it's, you know, taking, you know, three hours to shoot and develop and darkroom a roll of film and scan and whatever Cool, send it Everybody. I think I wish more people. I think, at the end of the day, this is what I wish is that more people looked at it as a fluid set of parameters that they can apply Like they're allowed to think critically about, and they can apply their own reality to.
Matt:They don't have to, you don't have to do things this way or that way because it's the most efficient or it's the most common. You know, figure out 10 different ways to do something and then choose the one that you feel I don't want to say fits you the most, but that you I mean just it almost is an equation of just like. Am I having fun right now?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Matt:I am having fun right now I like this, Then do that. Yeah, Like I mean, there's so many times, especially in the last few months, like I rarely I try not to write on the computer anymore. I just go outside sit on the porch with a notepad. Yeah, Do my like for work.
Matt:Yeah, Like, try to like if I'm yeah, I've been doing notepads to just go out and sit with a notepad or go walk around the block, yeah, and think about it. Yeah, like there's not the end result is the end, like if it gets done, it doesn't really matter how you get there with a lot of things. Yeah, so yeah, I just think, um, what did I write here? Play unconcerned with productivity and then I play mildly concerned with productivity, so that's. That's an interesting concept of, like you know, I don't ever want to say completely unconcerned with productivity, cause I do think at the end, like, unless you are completely on your own dime, and you're just on your own timeline.
Matt:You're probably trying to meet some kind of deadline, even if it's somewhat self-imposed. So maybe not unconcerned with productivity but mildly concerned with productivity.
Alex:Yeah.
Matt:Where it's going to get. Like your videos still get done.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Matt:They might take a little longer, but you're also not sitting in front of the light box yes, the magic rectangle yeah, I mean, what do you think about? I embrace the absurd and find joy in an irrational existence. Yeah, you know, I think that's uh I mean my existence is pretty irrational at this point, current moment in time.
Alex:Oh boy, is it ever? I mean, if I just think about my wife coming downstairs and she has a few times and just been like whoa, I wish we could. We got to like link of I think I only have a member video but I got to show like a picture or something of my, of all the crap that I have. Yeah, um, but yeah, I just uh, I, I, I, I, I do, I, I am really but are you having a good time?
Alex:the irrationality yeah, it's like because it's yeah, there's, it's just it's. It really is fun, it is inspiring, it just I mean the, the, the um, overflow of ideas for stuff. I can make again something as simple as just a cool way to record a voiceover all the way to. Oh, I can make a video about this. That would be really cool to show you know, like, like a video about which old, shitty microphone sounds the best yeah, sounds the coolest. And like record a voiceover with it. Like I got this one at my grandpa's house. I got this one at a thrift store. I picked up this one at an estate sale. I've never used them before. I don't know how good they are. I don't even know what kind of microphone it is. Yeah, let's just listen to it.
Speaker 2:And see what sounds cool, go with it.
Alex:You know, just, it's just fun. Yeah, Um, yeah, I, I, I, I I'm very much enjoying it. And, uh, and thought about that when shooting medium format, Cause I'm like I got this big ass camera, the Connie Omega rapid, the film. Like I had to watch this YouTube video, Cause this camera you load the film a very certain specific way. I had to watch it. Like this is a whole process. I can't remember the process, so I have to watch the YouTube video several times until I've memorized how to do it with this camera. It's heavy.
Alex:The shutter, the range finder I'm like this is just all signs point to why the hell are you using yeah what is just get a fuji medium format for 1500 bucks digital and call it good and I'm like I looked at those, those, those scans, and I'm like oh, baby, nope, I'm all in yeah all in god, it looks so good what do you if you had to draw a line between, like, enjoyment and efficiency?
Matt:where do you draw that line? Like is it? Does it depend on?
Alex:well, I'll give you with me it depends on the.
Matt:What's the intention of the, of the project.
Alex:For sure that's a big part of it, but well, I'll give you an example of a frustration that came out of shooting 120. I actually had my, my f1, my canon f1, my slr. Yep, the take-up spool right well, so yeah, with the, with the rapid. I went back to chicago because my grandma passed away and I was going to photograph the inside of her house in medium format, every room of the house, and I go to load the film. And i'm'm like you, stupid, dumb moron, you forgot a take-up spool.
Matt:And.
Alex:I had three other rolls of portrait.
Alex:I had a 160 and two 400s and I'm like you know these were 20 bucks each. I could just burn a roll and pull the spool out of that. I'm like the photography gods, I can't do it, I can't, I just can't do it. So I do submit and surrender. I, I can't, I just can't do it. So I do submit and surrender. I know it's been a common refrain with me. I just go. You weren't supposed to take medium format today and I think the focal length, I forget. It's like between a 40 and a 50. Like that's a really tough focal length to shoot house interiors anyway, but I could have used it for some detail shots. So I'm like you got to use the F1 with the 28 millimeter and I use the 50 a little bit on a few things.
Alex:but I'm like you know the grain's heavier you are shooting. I'm shooting 250d um vision 3, so it's not as bad as like kodak gold or with the, with the layer peeled, peeled off, no it's all it's.
Matt:It's the film stock so he does ecn6 or whatever it is yeah, down at midwest film co.
Alex:So it's, it's all it's, it's the film stock. So he does ECN six or whatever it is down at Midwest film co, so it's it's legit yeah it's legit and it's beautiful and it's $12 a roll for 36 exposure, so I will take that over portrait.
Matt:You know, portrait 400 used to cost that much. Yeah Uh, now used to be cheaper than that.
Alex:It's $13 a roll at Walgreens. I haven't bought film in a long time. Vision 3 is cheaper, so I'll take that All right. So the other thing when my grandma, when I visited the second time to Chicago this year, I went and I brought both cameras the medium format and the F1, and I'm like I'm going to get a portrait of my grandma, medium format and 35. So, grandma, is it okay if I take a portrait? I just want you to sit there and look at camera, no, smiling or nothing line up the f1, snap, get the one, the other one out. I'm like you don't have to like do a portrait for this one, because I was really just testing the camera, thinking if it works, I'm going to go back to my grandma's house and get more portraits of her in medium format. Of course she passed away so that's not possible anymore, but I took the 120 the medium format shot. I get them back from the scanner. F1 is completely out of focus I'm like what were you even doing?
Alex:yeah, how is it so badly out of focus? You're shooting at like I was at a lower f-stop because it was a morning interior.
Speaker 2:So I was probably shooting like f4, 5, 6.
Alex:So not crazy. But I'm like, what was your shutter speed? Probably a 60th.
Matt:I don't usually go below a 60th. Maybe it was a little blur there then.
Alex:But I'm like, how is this?
Matt:Was it on a tripod?
Alex:It's not blur from movement, it's out of focus. Gotcha, I missed focus with it Every other shot that morning on the f1, perfectly in focus fine yeah, mostly because they were to infinity. So it's like yeah, just yeah, infinity, you're good. I'm like how do you watch that?
Matt:yeah.
Alex:So then I look at the 120 shot when a range finder oh it's yeah sharp attack shutter speed's a little low though, so grandma had moved her hand a little blurry hand and she's mid speech which is kind of like this like I don't think it's bad, though, no, no, it's good.
Matt:Yeah, you saw it yeah.
Alex:So it's fine, but it's not what I would call a portrait, because she's not, you know, looking at it's a portrait in the sense that it's of a person, but it's not to me what I had in my mind for a portrait. I wanted it on my grandmother thing you mentioned. I'm like this fucking tool. Yeah, I didn't get the shot, because now, if I had my eos r would have got the shot.
Alex:Would have gotten 20 shots we got 20 shots. Would have fired them off. Sharp focus autofocus would have latched onto her eyeball, wouldn't even had to think about it. But man, that 120 stuff looks good yeah, it looks really good while the eos r looks good. I'm bored of it. I'm just bored of that. Look yeah, yeah, but the 120, I'm like oh yeah did you fire it up?
Matt:yeah, oh yeah. No, I mean, I think I think there's a lot to be said for just also, yeah, the process going through, the process of shooting it, loading it, like, and we can step off of film here, we both, you know typewriters.
Alex:Black Magic Pocket Cinema Camera the original Black Magic Pocket Cinema Cameras. Why are you shooting this?
Matt:I was like man, I love how this camera looks so much that I want to build a rig that we can actually use for professional shoots.
Matt:I mean, you're not going to use it to shoot a feature film but I mean typewriters, pen and paper. You know it's not, as it's not as quick as typing something up or, you know, using chat, gpt, but I love dictionaries like I and I I know like here's the great thing. I always make this argument and we talked about this a little bit. I frequently make the statement that I think we live in the best time ever yeah and then people react.
Matt:There's usually a couple of some people agree, some people don't care. That's probably the stance I agree with the most and then, but some people get upset about it.
Matt:They're like, oh, we're not living in the like things are, so whatever. And I'm like, if you kind of, you know, frame your life with this idea of you know, nothing is there's no point. That sounds so just negative, and I don't mean that in a negative way, but just you can kind of build things and like decide what, at least as an individual, in your, in your own life. I think it's a really good time to be alive because we can choose from. I mean, even in just American culture, you know, we've got 250 years roughly just about to go back and choose from of what we want to. Uh, you know how we, what we want to do.
Matt:And then you know, you've got other cultures to choose from, You've got ideas that you can pull from, you've got easy access to all of these things. It's not like we are like oh well, because we live in the Midwest, we can't access these movies or these right. Everything's accessible. It's a pretty good time to be alive, especially when you're just trying to like pick, pick and choose different areas of of stuff. Yeah, Typewriters.
Alex:Yeah, mixing, mixing it all together, you're.
Matt:You're super high on VHS. I'm not a VHS fan, but I get it yeah.
Alex:I think a lot of people see me buying VHS and are like you're going to watch that. I'm like no, I'm not going to watch it, it's just going to be there in the background.
Matt:It's just a vibe and it's really funny because I have the same feeling about your VHS stuff that you get that or that. I run into with some people when I say I use film yeah.
Matt:Because like my, my thought of VHS is like, oh, why wouldn't you, you know, and I, you know, I catch my. I'm not going to actually make this like I think it's cool, yeah, like I'm not actually like criticizing the choice to do that, but I do, you know, I'll be like what VHS is? A very like standard media. Yeah, the choice to do that. But I do you know I'll be like what VHS is, a very like standard media.
Alex:Yeah, you know it degrades over time. It's destructive to the artist's original vision of the film. A hundred percent.
Matt:Like film you can do. You know they've done 8K restorations of Hitchcock films. Yeah, they look gorgeous. They are the most perfect thing I've ever seen it's like it looks just as good as any digital film.
Matt:You know, to my eye, yeah, uh, obviously you can tell it was shot on film, but it adds to it, it adds a character to it that it didn't have, but there's no like loss of information, right. And with vhs I'm always like oh, oh well, you're kind of, but then again, like we choose to shoot this thing on a bunch of standard definition cameras. But yeah, so I get it. It's just, you know, find what gets you pumped.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Alex:And for me, you know, vhs in nostalgia and having watched so many movies on VHS, the sound that the VCR makes when it's playing the look of the image on a standard definition CRT TV. You know, granted, you know it's converted an aspect ratio from its original aspect ratio to fit a 4.3 aspect ratio, but the actual image on a standard def screen looks great. But the actual image on a standard def screen looks great. And the other thing too is dude some of those vhs, the box art on them and the graphics that they use, like this manhunter vhs that I picked up. I'm just like I have probably a dozen vhs tapes that I am going to set aside and I'm going to stare at them to figure out how to integrate these box designs and the font choices and the color choices into my work. Yeah, uh, I don't know how it will manifest, I don't know where it'll show up, but I look at it and I go that is beautiful You're building.
Matt:You're building a design reservoir, a reference library that's completely unique to you. Yep, absolutely a reference library, yes, that's completely unique to you. Yep, I can't get that by searching vhs covers. I mean, I could get a, I can get a bit of it, yeah, but I'm not going to be able to get something as complete, or, as you know, yeah, especially those very cool early 80s, mid 80s, vhs, where they the company that made the, the sleeve, designed it took a still from the film, picked the font.
Alex:They didn't just take the movie poster and slap it on the box. It's a work of art, in my opinion, and it's so inspiring to me to see that, as someone who really likes graphic arts and graphic artists, but isn't one, but wants to touch it, wants to toe into, interact with it and learn like okay, well, they did a drop shadow.
Alex:Oh, I see, like reverse engineer, like, yeah, what, what the thinking was, how, how it worked, and and get closer to that, that art form as well, even if it's not something that I exclusively want to do, for sure, but I want to improve that craft. Um, and if I really had my way, I would be like how do I get the machinery that they used to make? This stuff to like make it the old way, not just open up the designer.
Matt:That's what I'm saying. Slap it together. That and that's kind of one. You know, I would almost make an argument that, yes, it's incredibly inefficient to do especially graphic design, to do it in that manner. Yeah, um, I mean, think about this, though, like up until 19,. You know, up until 1990, maybe, maybe a little bit earlier, but I mean, all of the design in the world was done completely analog yeah so, yes, well, it's highly inefficient and, yes, nobody is trained to do it like that.
Matt:It's a massive differentiator and most people aren't going to be interested in it. You're going to have to turn down a lot of work because it's just going to be like but if you find, if you're running a business and you find a million dollars worth of clients that are interested in it, you're the only one that can serve them, or one of the very select that can. So there are arguments to be made for you know. Okay, let's try it this way, let's do it completely different. I? I think it's funny. You look around. It's like every business is completely dependent on computers, which I get it. They're amazing. Yeah, for that they're perfect, but but they can be. You know, there's the.
Alex:They can be distracting well, they can, they can like. The tools can be so abundant and so efficient, in a sense, that you just overload yourself with digital clutter and what was the?
Matt:article you sent me, where everybody's pulling from the same resources yeah, oh god, what was that article? I'll just essentially, the thesis was that everybody's pulling from the same reservoir of ideas, so everything looks the same.
Alex:The same design language, basically Everybody's got everybody, just when you want to design something new you Google Coffee shop and you look at it, you look at 100, and then you have some. How do I decorate my room for my Airbnb?
Matt:And it's like, oh, white sheets and this thing, like you just, and so this is a way to almost work around that where you know you're. If you're not using a computer, you're not going to be influenced by what that's feeding you. If you're not using the internet for your design, well to me if you're looking at objects from the past as well you know and this is hauntology, right we're like we're we're tapping into the past to never sort of like cause.
Alex:We can't see a clear vision of a future. Like what's a design that would look like it literally came from the future, versus me looking at VHS covers or old typewriters and designing things based on what I like about these objects of the past.
Matt:Um well, it's interesting Like you used to sit down, for you know, maybe this isn't exactly true, but there was space to sit down and just think about what the future looked like for 10 days. And at least that's coming from your own. You know your own pathways of thought. It's coming from your own brain. Now there's not a lot of sitting down and just thinking about the future.
Matt:Eventually you're going to break and you're going to search on the computer like your visions of the future, and you're going to create some, you know, molded together version of all of these.
Alex:Yeah, A little Ralph McQuarrie, a little HR Geiger, a little Braun, you know industrial design, some Herman Miller, and now we've got yeah.
Matt:Throw it out.
Alex:Yeah.
Matt:And so, yeah, it's just who's to say what the. You know, I think it's an interesting way to. I'm trying to like because I don't want to be like, hey, that's clearly the wrong way to do it. I don't think it is. I think there's a reason that most people have adopted the newer way. Yeah, just like I think there's a reason most people have adopted digital cameras Right. Film prices got expensive and all of a sudden, all the people that shot digital looked a lot smarter Like. I get it there's. I stress that it's not the only way and that some of the problems we run into could be solved by applying a different way of thinking. Let me ask you this really quick.
Alex:Yes, please do.
Matt:How important is? It seems like we're stepping away, but this is very related. How important is productivity Question mark? I guess stepping away, but this is very related. How important is productivity period question mark, I guess. But how important is productivity as an idea and the reason we touched on that?
Alex:you were talking about that in pre-show a little bit, so I wanted to get that in because it seems like you've your idea of this has changed over the last well, you talked about like efficiency as a north star right, and I think people can put productivity as a north star, like my like, as long as I got through 10 items on the to-do list today, like I was, and that's that's what I'm pulling from is you talking about how you used to use all these productivity apps and like, yeah and yes, it does break from utility as a north star, but and you know, don't get me wrong like when I did that, when I had really you know, and and I wasn't like using notion in some compelling you know advanced way, it was really just a, a easier, simpler way to lay out more complex to-do lists, you know, and, and a category, and then sub sub items within that category of things. I wanted to get done that day and I had a really good run where I was very proud of my self-discipline and would really maximize my time. I would sit there and say to myself maybe I wrapped up something and I had 30 minutes before I had to pick up my daughter at preschool and I would say your instinct is to just kind of screw off for the next 30 minutes, but what's something that you can get done, that's on this to-do list in 30 minutes and I would really challenge myself to do it. And so, part of me again, tremendous fulfillment and satisfaction in exacting the discipline to focus on being as productive as possible. And there's a sense of fulfillment from that On the flip side. From that On the flip side, I felt like that focus on productivity at every turn, while it created increased output.
Alex:I felt like the substance of what was being outputted, the fulfillment I had on the more artistic side of the spectrum was really declining. So I would feel like I was a good little worker. I was a good little entrepreneur. You know, I'm that much closer to sort of achieving a level of productivity for the week that I could be really satisfied with and it would get me good marks from this entrepreneur or that entrepreneur or whatever. But it it, it felt like it too. A lot of that was was for some sort of commercial out, uh, commercial result.
Alex:For the most part. You know this is going to get you closer to this goal, because one more article for medium and the money and this and that, but it was just you get burnout from it. And I didn't necessarily get burnout, but I'm like I'm just not. I'm feeling a little empty creatively here with so much focus on productivity. So again, we talked about on the show before everything is gonna.
Alex:It's a pendulum. It swings back and forth. You're never in this perfect sense of balance and stasis where you're at this place of peace, where productivity is, is not fluctuating and it's happening efficiently and you're not feeling burned out or whatever. And then your creative output and all that stuff is happening. It goes back and forth, um.
Alex:So for me the pendulum has definitely swung back more to the artistic, creative and I think I'm going to pay a little bit of a price for that on the commerce side. And I'm going to have to swing back maybe not as far on the productivity side, to be like you know you got to write two articles per month that you're excited to write artistically and creatively for medium, but they're just not getting done. Or you need to get an extra member video done or you need to get another module filmed in your course, like, I'm going to have to embrace some elements of productivity, but just maybe not to the extent that I had in the past when it sacrificed, um, a bit more artistic or creative fulfillment try to find a little bit more of a balance there Middle ground.
Matt:Yeah, yeah. Do you think that? Why do you think people tend to productivity as a North Star? Why do you think that is such a common?
Alex:Because I think, culturally, we have so much pressure on us to achieve success as us, as a society, measure success Big house, cars, college funds, flashy clothes, flashy accessories, consumer desire-based I was hoping you'd pick up on that based. I was hoping you'd pick up on that, um, you know, consumer desire based metrics of success and I think, trying to find for me like, uh, could you be okay with the house that you have? Could you be okay if your car wasn't rusty? Could you be okay with having a 20 year old car? Yeah, um, what things are you okay with that don't meet certain people's expectations of matt smart, matt's a white dude, matt's good looking, matt's a youtuber, but then the house and the car and the this and the that, that doesn't line up.
Alex:There's a disconnect there. He's doing something wrong. He's not being productive to get the things that he should have. And part of me goes, while I do want to have some metrics of success, they need to be mine, which might be family trips or vacations, it might be more time outdoors, it might be more typewriters, it might be, uh, I don't know whatever it is. Um, to to understand what that is and not let social media, the media, um, you know, uh, uh. All the influences that corporations have on us to be good little consumers and achieve the American dream. To let that make me focus primarily on productivity so I can impress a bunch of people I don't ultimately care about.
Matt:Yeah, I think that's what when, when people lean into, like flashy clothes or, you know, flashy accessories, they're typically trying to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just be a douche bag.
Matt:Yeah, yeah they. You know they they're trying to like compensate for something, Right? So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, so I also.
Matt:I wrote about short and longterm benefits. Um, this idea of, like you know if, right underneath productivity and like misguided cultural, you know, north stars, I think we tend to over index on short term, short term thinking, yep short term, short term thinking, short term versus short term benefits, short term, yeah, and I think that's a good way to contextualize this, this idea a little bit too, like you talked about when you were doing things and you were, you know, you were, everything was digital, everything was optimized.
Alex:Everything was productive Macros, shortcuts.
Matt:You, you know it worked a couple of months and then, you felt burnt out.
Matt:Um, so it worked great in the short term. Long term not, not so much. I think you hear about this with companies a lot too, where it's like oh, look at our culture, our culture is great. At the end of the day, though, people are just staring at a computer for six to eight hours a day sitting at a desk, and it catches up to everybody. Eight hours a day sitting at a desk, and it catches up to everybody. So, like, what is like? Where do you place short term and longterm in this idea of you know using shitty because they're more fun? It's like sometimes, yeah, maybe that's the maybe that's the cure to losing interest is just, oh, yeah, but it's more enjoyable, there's a novelty to it every time I approach it. We're losing a lot of that with the sterilization of these processes.
Alex:For me. I think I want to embrace the long-term approach, the long view of things as a life philosophy, long-term approach, the long view of things as a life philosophy, and I want to use short-term thinking or a short-term plan or strategy as a tool to help me with the long view, the long approach.
Matt:What's a specific example of that?
Alex:Oh, that's, oh, that's so. Long view is I want to find more ways to express myself through work as a photographer and maybe even making video or some kind of video-based work. I don't know what it is or what it'll look like. Photography is much cleaner and simpler, you know, whereas a video can get weird. It could be content, but then it could also be art, or it could be poetic and kind of eccentric and weird, or it could be a short film, something very straightforward and audiences can digest it. I want to find all of the avenues I can to express myself creatively and artistically and I also want to use content creation as a way to earn a living but still be artistically and creatively fulfilled, be helping primarily myself, not doing work that ultimately helps someone else achieve their goal. But short-term thinking that I might use is okay. Look, you're figuring something out with how you're going to achieve this long view, this long-term approach, and you want to screw around with old tech and typewriters and experimentation and kind of nuking the fridge here and blowing things up a little bit.
Alex:Take a short-term thinking approach and don't really think too hard about it. If you feel it, you know, buy that tool, experiment with it. Tear up your studio, reorganize things Like, let that impulsiveness and short-term thinking where you're not like really seeing well, how's this going to play out, what's the cost of doing this, because you feel safe in experimenting. You're not going to. You're not going to like go bankrupt, you're not going to, you know, lose your housing, your kids aren't going to go hungry, you're not going to do anything like that. But embrace that short-term thinking with this thing. That's going to. Once you figure it out and kind of see where the dust settles, it's going to help you achieve the long-term, the long-term approach. Yeah, um.
Matt:I think too, just making sure you don't sabotage the long-term.
Alex:Yeah.
Matt:With the short-term Sure, yeah, cause it's easy. I think that's the mistake. That's the hole a lot of people fall into is they're so focused on that beginning execution. They sabotage the Yep or they have to go back to the beginning and start from scratch, almost Yep.
Alex:A lot of things that come up with me sometimes is like I don't know if this is a thing, I don't know if this is going to work, I don't know if this is going to help, because I don't know. I want to find out.
Alex:So the only way I can find out is if I do it, if I experience it, because then I can create an emotional conclusion that lets me have peace, it lets me have a resolution, it lets me go. There was no cheese down that tunnel. Let's move on. Let's go on to this thing.
Speaker 2:It had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer. Thank you,
