Studio Sessions
Discussions about art and the creative process. New episodes every other week.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
Studio Sessions
29. Beyond Comparison: Finding Your Own Path Through Action
In this episode, we explore the crucial distinction between thinking about creating and actually doing the work. We discuss how overthinking and comparison can lead to creative paralysis, while action often leads to progress and self-discovery. The conversation delves into personal experiences of balancing artistic aspirations with financial realities, and how the pressure to achieve "greatness" can sometimes hinder genuine creative expression.
We reflect on the value of introspection in the creative process, but also emphasize the importance of translating thoughts into tangible output. The episode touches on the use of tools like typewriters to bridge the gap between ideas and action. We conclude by challenging listeners to consider how they can move from contemplation to creation in their own artistic pursuits. - Ai
Show Notes:
Collateral (2004) Trailer, Letterboxd Page
Making of Nebraska: CBS News Interview with Bruce Springsteen
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
Why did you kill me? Well, the cabbie's not lagging back. Sigmund Freud means Dr Roof. Answer the question. Look in the mirror Paper towels, a clean cab, the little company someday, and what you got saved. I didn't have any business. Someday, someday, my dream will come. One night you'll wake up and you'll discover it never happened. It's all turned around on you. It never will. Suddenly, you are old. It didn't happen and it never will because you were never gonna do it anyway. You're pushing in a memory that's zoned out in your barco lounger, being hypnotized by daytime TV for the rest of your life. So what you talked to me about murder. All it ever took was a down payment on a Lincoln Town car. That girl you can't even call that girl. What the fuck are you still doing driving a cab?
Speaker 2:podcast. Gotta put a show on. Yeah, I haven't had a topo in a while but I have a perrier, because I was way out west and got to drive by the French bakery and get something which I have in my bag for the drive home.
Speaker 3:Little snack.
Speaker 2:Alright, it's a pudding knot.
Speaker 3:We don't have to put on a show. Actually, we might address that at some point. This isn't a show.
Speaker 2:It's just two people, people what they would talk about if they were at a coffee shop.
Speaker 3:And then we just record, cut it with three flip cameras and some microphones so I tried to go the total opposite of what I wore in the last episode right the suit, and now we've got t-shirt, gym shorts.
Speaker 2:Sunday afternoon, not knowing what you're going to do today.
Speaker 3:Sunday morning coming down. That's good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like it, I like it all. I'm stoked for my grandpa's watch to arrive in October.
Speaker 3:When we hit.
Speaker 2:I hope I like it so much.
Speaker 3:At a certain sub-level. I'm buying you a watch. I don't know what that is. Wow, I don't know what that is. You don't know what that is either. I haven't thought about it. It better match the.
Speaker 2:Camper Plate and the Goodfellas soundtrack as far as gift quality goes.
Speaker 3:I don't know if it will. It's hard to do that. It was a pretty top-notch. That's the top of the line, pretty top-notch, pretty, top notch. All right, this is good. I feel like we're both in kind of a goofy mood, keeping it light.
Speaker 2:We're all going to bring the heavy with this buddy boy.
Speaker 3:I don't know how I feel about that, but let's get into it. I don't know what we're talking about today, matt knows what we're talking about. We don't have a tripod.
Speaker 4:It had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer.
Speaker 3:We don't have a tripod. One of the cameras is questionable, right, but we got a new one.
Speaker 2:We did get a new one, deadstock.
Speaker 3:New in box in box never opened. If anybody wants to send us their old flip cams, as long as it's this specific model which we're we can't, no, we can't dox it, never mind we can't tell everybody what the specific model is although I think I posted. It go delete that immediately. I'll just I'll redact that portion that says why redact this is the best flip camera out there Prior to just black it out. Should we do life updates? Should we do reading updates?
Speaker 2:Should we do a little fun, quick thing here before we get into the heavy?
Speaker 3:stuff.
Speaker 2:So it's been like two weeks.
Speaker 3:Or is this going to?
Speaker 2:mess up our retention. Alex, if we don't talk about the topic right away, is it gonna mess up our retention?
Speaker 3:maybe that's a reason for not talking about.
Speaker 2:Maybe we don't give a shit, maybe we do, maybe we're just parading that we don't the retention I um well, hey, we've got a lot of new subscribers and we've got to make sure that we're we're kind of the largest podcast on this channel. So we have to take what worked and we've got to double down on it and we've got to continue to not just do what naturally grows the channel and start getting strategic.
Speaker 3:It is nice having just kind of done whatever we feel like and the channels yeah continue to grow. It's nice to not care. It's a nice feeling, I mean we care the minute we start caring is the minute that we probably stop making podcasts, right? So I don't. There's probably some people that are like that'd be a good day, but right, we enjoy doing this. Yeah, so I think we got to maintain a an era of not caring.
Speaker 1:Yeah because once once you.
Speaker 3:Once you start to care, you have there's like things you have to do. There's there's expectations, there's processes.
Speaker 2:There's just a lot of stuff that I really think yeah you start going well, we did this thing the last time and that worked, so we got to kind of do that again. It's like yeah, so like just to clarify, we care about doing this, we care, we care about doing this, but we don't care about going. Oh, hey, that video, that one got 1.6k views and we gained 25 subs. So what about that? Did it?
Speaker 3:Let's just keep doing that. We get pumped when it does well too, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:But probably because we on that side of things don't care.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh shit, look, no matter where you are in life. And if you say this isn't the case, then you're probably lying to yourself. Yeah, and if you say this isn't the case, then you're probably lying to yourself. Yeah, you care when whatever you're doing is resonating with another human.
Speaker 1:Yes. I think that's just how we're wired.
Speaker 3:Yep of take a left turn when the typical intuition might be to take a right turn and still get where you're, where you're going. Yeah, I think that's satisfying in its own way. So so matt's written out a lot, should we, okay? Well?
Speaker 2:do you want to do some fun stuff? Let's just do some fun stuff first. What?
Speaker 3:are you reading? What's like, what's um. What are you? What are you into recently? What are you consuming?
Speaker 2:so I'm like still in my come down out of the upheaval, right. So I showed you a picture of the studio. I posted that to my social media, instagram stories all that stuff I am like so consumed right now with, basically like I think what's happened is we talked about the last episode this whole year plus from street photography and old cameras and film photography and all that stuff creating this explosion of my world blowing up, blowing things up and collecting vhs and getting into vintage stereo equipment, and my studio right now is is getting torn apart. I built this whole big shelving system so I can put my typewriters and my vhs and my stereo system and all that, and to basically overhaul the entire back studio to go from being one part live streaming space, another part basically just storage of equipment. I was thinking about this when I was overhauling my space. I won't spend too much time on this, but it was, like you know, pelican cases with camera equipment and lighting and all that stuff with camera equipment and lighting and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:This stuff all symbolizes to me a time in my life where I waited to get permission to work and this stuff was all ready to go to be thrown into my truck so that when a company or a client said, okay, yeah, we will hire you for this, I could throw all that stuff in my truck and go do work for somebody else to help them achieve whatever greatness that they're aspiring to with their business or whatever, and I that thought dawned on me as I kind of took everything off this shelf and I'm replacing it with stuff that's for me, that's like ultimately going to to, to serve the inspiration I have for the videos I make for my YouTube channel, this channel, photography, all the art and work and all the stuff that I'm doing, even just stuff like typewriter not repair, but cleaning up old typewriters that I'm going to use. But I incorporate into my channel all this stuff. So the space is being really turned into less of a storage room and more of a studio for me to make stuff, and I have the main part of my studio where I can watch stuff. I can work on my computer in the command center and now this is even more I can still live stream, which it was doing before, but so it's really exciting.
Speaker 2:I'm not really really reading anything right now, uh, because I'm in this come down from this state of, from kind of blowing up everything in the back studio and and getting it all rebalanced. So, to wrap up, I have quite a bit left to do to achieve the vision I have in my mind for the space. And then, once I do and all that is organized and streamlined and ready for me to do what I'm doing, then reading and other stuff will start coming back in. I mean, I'm like ignoring text messages that people have sent me with recommendations for this or that. Yeah, I'm like All consumed. Yeah, completely all consumed.
Speaker 3:It's a good time for it too. Yeah, like I think. Yeah, I think this season. Yeah. Is a good time to just unplug.
Speaker 2:Kind of do your own thing and we'll, we'll, we'll get, get into this. But this is sort of to me, this type written note is a symbol of the type of stuff I'm taking from a thought into a tangible form. Yeah, that then might end up being what is? This in the work? Yeah, so these are like vintage sick this type it's a book like pat, like like a tear off, like it's's a book, like a tear-off. It's like a memo pad, but it's like a tear-off piece of paper. That's cool.
Speaker 2:And it's got like this vintage look, so I prefer this to just like boring white copy paper from Office Max. Yeah, that shit's lame right there, bro. Come on, are you kidding me? This is imagination, this is creativity at work on.
Speaker 3:Are you kidding me? This is, this is imagination, this is creativity at work.
Speaker 2:Something about this old paper.
Speaker 3:This is the best these two things the best things in the world.
Speaker 2:And that's and that's part of all this crap I'm consuming. There's something about an old paper, old typewriter. It makes me want to take what I'm thinking and translate it into a tangible form, whereas when I sit and think about this stuff and think about going onto a Mac book pro and typing it up into pages, it's just boring to me. Yeah, but this excites me. So I just, you know, type this up. Stream of consciousness. We'll get into this. Um, but you asked what I was reading. What are you reading, alex?
Speaker 3:What am I reading Um, you reading, alex. What am I reading um?
Speaker 2:so read a lot in the last couple of weeks just been on like different vacations and stuff like that, consuming a lot of written stuff yeah, and I mean I'm working on things also called books.
Speaker 3:A lot of exciting. A lot of exciting things kind of in the works. I feel like many exciting projects oh, is that gonna help?
Speaker 2:is that is that little? But great.
Speaker 3:Well, one of the one of the things that I'm trying to do more of is I'm trying to get back into writing like long form essays, yeah, um yeah, not for anything, not, not like, not like it. With that, it's like literally as a practice of journaling. So I just I miss the analytical process that goes into writing an essay yeah about a random topic.
Speaker 3:Um, so you come across something in a book and you can really passively consume that information, take it and just kind of okay, that's great, and then put it out. Sometimes you write it down on like a bookmark or something and it stays around. But I really want to start, um, you know getting playing with ideas a little more and, um, you know molding them and seeing what comes from that. I think essays are a great tool for that. I'm not talking about like 10 page essays.
Speaker 1:I'm talking about like you know, three pages whatever.
Speaker 3:Just enough to challenge your preconceived notions for a particular idea, um to see where you should go next in terms of exploring that Um is you know, is there more here than I initially thought? Is there less here than I initially thought? That kind of thing Also becoming more, um, having more clarity in my thinking, my Also becoming more. Having more clarity in my thinking, my thought process, I feel like I've my thoughts have been a little jumbled, Disjointed, and part of that's just from taking so much in. Yeah, and I have a pretty high threshold for how much, like I mean, I think you know how much I constantly consume, pretty oh, buddy Pretty old sponge over here.
Speaker 3:I over here pretty high threshold for that and I mean I'm just just kind of jumbled, yeah, with stuff and I don't hate that, but I think writing ideas out might be better. And, yeah, I bought this stupid old typewriter. It's an electric typewriter. Um, mainly oil.
Speaker 2:signet 10.
Speaker 3:yeah, my first ultra-portable non-electric is a Royal Signet, so this thing is a monster, but I like having it just always on. I've got, at this point, three typewriters and one of them stays up. I just bought it because it was unbelievable. Yeah, it's beautiful.
Speaker 2:It's.
Speaker 3:American-made, like World War II era, and they actually had to cease production to help the war effort.
Speaker 3:So just a lot of history. And then I have the Olympia SM9. And that's great. It's like a Mercedes, it's just really well-made and Germans do it right, and it's just in great, great condition. Great condition, I mean, yeah, it's perfect condition essentially. And then, yeah, the Signet picked it up this week and I've just been using that to write things out so I can write things out on a computer. But I have found that I just I'm too prone to be distracted when I'm on a computer and I just, you know, some things work better on a computer. Computer's great for long-distance collaboration and for a lot of things, but I think there's a good synthesis point that a lot of people miss between analog and digital. We've talked about this before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:But what I'm reading, not a ridiculous amount right now. I started the. Usa trilogy by John does pass those and what else? Various other things. Yeah, went to a Tennessee Williams Museum recently, which was cool Very cool. Yeah, it's one of my favorite. I guess playwrights, yep, writers maybe. So that was cool. Picked up a couple of old things and working on some stuff around there I like old things what?
Speaker 3:else Been watching. I just had Looney Tunes on in the background in the studio for like a week on mute. I watched that stuff as a kid. It's just really visually interesting. Art style is really cool, yeah, it looks beautiful on that monitor. Yeah, it looks just really good colors and yeah, that's been pretty inspiring. It's on right now everybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm actually For those listening Anytime that I'm caught staring off.
Speaker 3:I'm just getting distracted.
Speaker 1:What else?
Speaker 2:That's all that's coming to mind. There's other stuff. Yeah sure, we don't need to spend a ton of time on it. That's a good rundown, good summary. You were in Miami.
Speaker 3:I was in Miami. Yeah, you were in San Diego recently, yeah you've got some nice travel going on. We haven't talked about those trips, yet Every time we get back to Omaha it gets hot.
Speaker 2:It's great while we're away and then it gets hot when we get back For those listening and watching. We had one of the nine seasons of the Midwest. We had a little false fall this past week or so, like a little gloomier, a little cooler, and now today's high is 98 degrees, Tomorrow's a hundred, at least what I saw yesterday. So we're in a little mini heat wave here and we're just kind of August 25th.
Speaker 3:Sorry, dated the podcast episode filming, but it'll be this is the middle of september, so um anyway uh there's uh just a sense of ready to be uh embracing cooler temps I think matt and I share this where fall is probably one of our favorite seasons, so favorite october is the best month of the year gonna be a good next couple of months. I think the energy will be high. We tend to hang out more in the winter too. I feel like Sure yeah, Because in the summer we're constantly just battling with you're out of town, I'm out of town, You've got the kids out of school, that's right yeah, there's just always something going on A little trickier.
Speaker 3:Or it's just always something a little trickier, yeah, or it's just hot and it's like you guys want to go take pictures like it's hot out, yeah, at least when it's cold.
Speaker 2:Now I do think we don't work as much in the winter, fall and spring are typically, yeah, I probably do more like personal work, although my content creation and the stuff that I'm doing that I put out there, that's ramped up significantly because my kids are in school. I have much more time to focus on that and as soon as I get this damn studio done, then I won't be preoccupied with the overhaul. I'll be able to just have that space all ready to go so I can get back to the work.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, a lot of cool stuff coming up though.
Speaker 2:Definitely, I think.
Speaker 2:I feel like I'm pretty optimistic about yeah, I think I'm going to write a couple of articles for my medium. I haven't written anything in a little while but having these experiences going to estate sales and doing like vinyl record hunting I I want to and doing a little bit of eBay reselling, I want to almost try to write an article. That's like you know, I was eBay reselling for a year and you know I don't know what the dramatic title is, if I'm or if I'll even go that route, but just sort of like this is what I think about reselling stuff on eBay after doing it for a year what that emotional experience is like, whether it's a kind of scammy, how it preys on my weaknesses of retail therapy and the. The sort of like yeah, that slot machine, there's a jackpot right around the next corner. And like, like what the definition of a jackpot is like oh my God, I just found a $18 record for a dollar, oh my God. It's like. Oh my god, I just found a 18 record for a dollar, oh my god.
Speaker 2:It's like like, yeah, it's 17 bucks, man, yeah, anyway so yeah no no I think I'm gonna try to work on some more writing in that area, in that area, and I'm hoping to use a dumb computer to do that writing that's another little project just get yourself an electronic typewriter. Well, I do want it to be stored digitally so I can more easily get it on the computer have you seen the electronic? Like the full electronic oh, yeah, yeah, I used to have one you can cloud.
Speaker 3:No, no, no, like the, these are new. Oh, like last five years or so there's a brand that does it. I mean, they're just typewriters, little, yeah, ink screen or whatever. Oh sure, sure, and it just saves directly to the cloud and then you can pull it up in any. It's just text document. They're like, they're not even that bad.
Speaker 3:They're like 500 bucks, which it's, it's, I mean, but you've sure with how much equipment you buy, you go through that and yeah, of course um, but I get 10 things versus one right, but I mean, you know, depends on how much they're cool, though I'll show you one after the show. Anyways, perfect, what do?
Speaker 2:you got. Well, I might read this because this is just my so okay. So part of why I would read this is because it's a good way for you and anybody listening or watching to, especially if you've listened to a lot of these episodes like. This is sort of a a by-product of all the what looks like on the surface, the craziness in my life with getting this stuff. This is what results.
Speaker 3:I like one thing, I just want to step in and comment Mania. There's so much introspection yeah. That like, honestly, I highly respect that, the amount of introspection that, like, honestly, I highly respect the amount of introspection that, because you can learn so much out of just I feel like a lot of people would go through this process and you're almost a vector for this force that's pushing you through the process and you're sitting here though you're thinking through it. Why am I doing this? How? Is this affecting me?
Speaker 3:What is the what is the externalization Like? What's the core of this? What's the internalization of this external action? You're a lot of people you know don't really go through that process, so I commend that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's.
Speaker 3:It's fun to see and listen to it from an outside perspective.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I've learned.
Speaker 3:I've learned stuff from it too.
Speaker 2:Well, and I mean I look at these behaviors and I see the, the physical externalization like the like again, the chaos of my space. You know somebody coming in there and going the picture.
Speaker 2:We should put the picture, yeah right, yeah, I'll send it to you going like holy, or you know, why are you going to all this stuff? Like, why are you going to these stages? Why are you getting these typewriters? Like, why are you doing all this stuff? It like makes no sense to someone in the outside and part of me goes why are you feeling this way? Why are you motivated to do this? Why are you setting other things aside to make time for this? And I?
Speaker 2:That's where that introspection, self-awareness comes with me as I just my curiosity, not only in other people, in their lives, and why they do this or why do that. I've asked that about myself to the point where even something like this I go. How can I trace some of these behaviors, compulsions, whatever, back genetically, like where does this come from? In my aunt? Like my, my ancestry from? Like my dad or whatever? Or my grandpa?
Speaker 2:I mean I went through my grandma's house after she passed away and I was always drawn to my grandpa's studio and it's a, it's a reflection of what I do.
Speaker 2:It's custom cabinetry, little dials, having speakers wired throughout the house. I mean all the detail work my grandpa did to build out all these tools to help him make stuff. Media photos, eight millimeter home movies, digitizing home movies, doing weird stuff with cheap photo editing software to like digitally remove somebody or cut them out and add them to this, like all this stuff he was messing around with, and there's so much correlation between what he was into his shop in the basement fixing lawnmowers, fixing electronics, like there's so much connection there between him, um, and me, and then also my dad and I wrote this thing, but again, like I wouldn't I don't know that I would have written this out had we it here for us to talk about and potentially anybody listening or watching to comment about, to have this conversation amongst all of us about it. All right, so I'm just going to read this. Is that okay? It's going to take them.
Speaker 3:Take a minute no should we so yeah for those for those listening.
Speaker 2:I've got a little small, two small pieces of paper that have a bunch of typing on them and people watching Two pieces of paper. So I just titled this Studio Sessions because I had the thought this could be something we talk about. All right. So my dad wrote a bunch of stories, but I'm terrified to read them, why I've had them for years and I've only looked them over getting a cursory understanding of what they're about. What does my dad ending his pursuit of a writing career in his 20s mean about me? Am I repeating him? Am I the continuation of that legacy?
Speaker 2:Is quote failure, genetic Laziness, an unwillingness to work hard and sacrifice to achieve something profound? Or is it just a fantasy and you're actually not a writer or an artist? Compulsion, obsession, fixation, ultimately, you'd rather just keep your days easy and consume the work of others and live in this fantasy world that you're capable of greatness, but outside forces prevent you from committing to that pursuit. It's not you, it's them. The relativity of quote hard work. You're a passionate hobbyist and experimenter and explorer, but you want to keep things comfortable and easy. So you get a job at the post office and you punch the clock and you get your pension, and on nights and weekends you tinker and play and make stuff and you join a Facebook group and you post some stories on Instagram and you show people what you like and what you've consumed and what you're interested in, and you just do that. You're a collector and a consumer and a dreamer, but you're not a doer. You're not competitive. You don't think about something great. Well, you don't seriously think about it. You dream about being perceived of as great, but you're not actually willing to work hard and sacrifice to achieve greatness. In your work there isn't an obsession or fixation or compulsion to be great. So, while you are ambitious, these missing ingredients prevent you from converting that ambition into making something that people consume, love and share over and over across the decades.
Speaker 2:So what do you do when you know this about yourself? Do you submit and surrender to that reality? Or do you reject it and give yourself to the potential delusion that putting in the work alone will get you where you want to go, or to an approximation of it? Sure, you're not Michael Jordan, but does that mean you can't have a meaningful life playing semi-pro basketball or pickup games at the park or coaching? If you know your limits, can you achieve some kind of greatness within that, is it great to just pursue it anyway? Regardless, do what you can do, but do it great, even if it's not going to get you to the quote top.
Speaker 2:What do you do when a fantasy you had for a big part of your life is met with the crushing reality that you simply don't have the right mix of talent, drive, ambition, competitiveness, obsession and a very specific vision for greatness that makes it easy to put everything in a secondary position to your pursuit? That's what I barfed out the other day when I thought about my dad's collection of short stories and things that he wrote that I actually tried to find. I didn't bring the tripod or the flip camera, but I took five seconds to think about where did I put all that stuff, and I think I put it somewhere that I wouldn't remember where it was because I'm afraid of it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, well define. Can I ask you to define what is greatness mean to you?
Speaker 2:I think the first thought you have when you think of greatness, I think of, um uh, an interview that I listened to with Bruce Springsteen and how he wanted to make something great. I think about a conversation I remember hearing or an interview with Alex Soth the photographer, and he just knew at a young age he wanted to make great work. I think about someone like Steven Spielberg who seemed to have ambition and aspirations for greatness, even if he never maybe said I want to make great work. You think about people that at least I do sort of reach the sort of the summit of that category of a thing filmmaking, photography, music. That if you, if some people had to pick like who would be on the Mount Rushmore of that thing Spielberg up there with movies, alex Soth with photography- Bruce.
Speaker 2:Springsteen. With music in my mind, I'm sort of plagued with thinking that greatness equates to, you know, making work that puts you in to the mind of everybody who thinks of the category of the thing that you make. Again, music, photography, film.
Speaker 2:It's interesting, though, cause and that, anything and that, and that seeing that as a young person who might be kind of like back to that moment where I watched my buddy or the one kid in the school play I can do that. Seeing that as a young person and maybe not fantasizing, thinking about what life would be like if you were in that position, does that kind of create this perception of what that is and where you relate to it every step of you know, every day of your life. Um, yeah, and I talked about the relativity of hard work, but you know, what about the relativity of greatness? Which can you know? I think of when you ask, well, what is you know? What is your definition of greatness? So, yeah, that's the answer that I can come up with.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I feel like a lot of times, especially in American culture, Western culture, and there's positives and negatives to this. But I do think there's a lot of negatives. I think the positives start to kick in once you've established kind of a literacy for the form that you're working within.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I think a lot of the negatives. I'm not saying you haven't established a literacy and some of the things you talked about, but I do think that you know pursuing any kind of and this is just my opinion um, I just want to lay that out and I'll get into a point of that also with what you said. But we tend to in america, we tend to view things on this scale of not good and great. Some of the examples you laid out Steven Spielberg and Alex Soth and Bruce Springsteen I think even that is such a highly subjective group of people. You and I agree on a lot of things I wouldn't put you know I have respect for all three of those people.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't put any of them on you know my personal whatever.
Speaker 3:Mount Rushmore whatever you want to call it, and I typically think it's not a useful exercise to come up with a Mount Rushmore just like it, it. It makes me feel a little strange inside when I hear people you know this person's the greatest of all time or this person's the you know the goat. This is the best to ever do it. I think you can strive towards excellence and craft, but I think for any artistic pursuit, the pursuit shouldn't be this perceived greatness that that's more of a mimicry of somebody who you idolize.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 3:It shouldn't be this vertical line that you're trying to get to the top of, because that's all, it's just iconography at the end of the day. Where it's something where this, you know, it's easier for us to say this person is the greatest and everybody else falls below that, or like that's a very commercially viable idea. But I think when you get into it there's so many you could be unheard of. And if you're making some kind of art that is unique to you and that is self-realized, I guess and it's not copying somebody else, then I think that's quote unquote great work.
Speaker 3:like you've achieved something that very few people have achieved. Yeah, um, there are certain things where it is easier to measure quote unquote greatness.
Speaker 3:like the fastest man alive, like you know, Usain Bolt is the fastest man to ever run that race, so he's therefore the greatest. I don't think that translates to art, though. No, in my opinion, and I think a lot of people like to think it does, and a lot of you know a lot of things in the world will tell you that it does because it's very commercially appealing to do that. Yeah, and I think that's almost a trap that people get caught in, sure, and it can stop somebody like you from just doing it, just like I. I love this and you you kind of already are like. This is an example of you kind of exploring something that's unique to you. Your space is a project that you're working on right now. That is an art project.
Speaker 3:Your grandfather's studio was you know his representation of, you know his, his work in in a lot of ways, and I don't think you know why you you might not think that's Spielbergian or whatever. It's its own little form of, I guess, greatness, but I just I think there is in America it's, it's really useful to have. You know, hard work equals success, equals greatness, and while I think you know, if you're doing something that you love, if you, if you want to make films and you've discovered. You know, you've just kept going and kept going and you've worked and you've discovered your own pocket, your own vision of the world and you're, you know, constantly exploring. How can I express that better? What's my? How do I see things? How can I get that down? How can I put that into the world?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it does take hard work. You know, it is very, very much a difficult process, as with photography, music, anything that you strive to do. It's not like that, you know, it's not as much of a hunker. Down and do the hard work and you can be the. I just don't think that's a very useful framework, like get underneath, get into the weeds, get into the hard work and just keep going. And you know you can. It's useful in some things, but it's not useful in others, and I think art is um, I know I'm just circling around because this is a uh, something that's I'm trying- to put into words right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just dumped this on you and yeah.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I, just I. I tend to think that, because I used to see a lot of the world in terms of like greatness and not, and I think there's, you know, excellence in execution and there's, you know, keeping a tight ship and there's executing at a high level and, you know, being open, and there's like factors, yeah, that can go into creating great work, and some of those things have to be present to create work that is truly yours. But I think it's too much of a reductive framework to just say like, oh, I'm going to work hard and I'm going to achieve greatness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think that and I think it's not useful.
Speaker 3:I think it's very, because you're looking at your dad's experience not writing past his 20s as a failure.
Speaker 2:I'm wondering if it's a failure, wondering if it's a failure.
Speaker 3:I think, like you're looking at that through the perspective of your kind of, you know, internal right, I guess conflict with your own writing.
Speaker 2:Well, and, and, and, and again. Like when someone like Bruce Springsteen says like you know, I just want you know to make great work right? He's not thinking about fame and fortune. He's not thinking about some fantasy life. He's not thinking about anything ego. He's thinking about how do I take, how I feel and what I think and the music I hear in my mind and how do I, and how do I like craft something that is you know, and he probably doesn't think about it like that but he's but but I think he's he, he's like uncompromising, like I'm not, like, like I'm not going to hang this up right now because it's not right, it's not, it's not there.
Speaker 2:And that doesn't mean that you don't have a, a moment where you call it, call a song, good, and you still think you know, well, we could have done this, or I wonder if we would have tried that You're always going to maybe second guess whether it was truly done or not. But there's something in these people that I am talking about, where I'm not necessarily talking about the life that they have as a result of making great work. I'm talking about their tenacity. And that's not to say that they never struggled. Or maybe there was a moment where bruce or alex was like, you know, I just want to, I don't want to be done today and I just want to watch some tv or something like that. But there's there's just something where where they're just sort of relentless in improving and doing more and and nothing is is going to stop them.
Speaker 3:Well, there's like a clarity that some people have.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I think some people I don't like, I don't think it's, and that's the problem with like trying to mimic these people that you hold high regard for is some of them just see things like they're not interested in doing anything other than that one thing, which is it attributes the level of you know literacy that they are able to achieve with their medium or their art form.
Speaker 3:But also, I think what's just an important note to make of what you just said is like his definition of greatness is't the same as yours when he's saying like I want to make something great, and it's really easy to conflate the two and be like he's talking about greatness and this is how I look at greatness and that's the same. But you know he's, I would wager most of these people.
Speaker 3:They have their own definition their own understanding absolutely, if they're being interviewed and it's just like a public, like they're probably not pushing harder to be like what is your understanding of that word?
Speaker 3:right, just so people that are listening, and so it's very easy to just be like oh, he means greatness and greatness is like being the best and, like, I think, a lot of those guys at the top of their art forms or who have achieved a level of like, fluency and mastery of like whatever that is, they're not again, their greatness is wow, I was able to get such a clear you know inside out, like understanding of you know what, how I see the world and how can I achieve that? Again, right, what is the level of technique that I have to employ to achieve something close to that? Again? But it's easy to just be like to kind of reduce it down into you know, grind, grind, grind. Great Well.
Speaker 2:I think, and I think that this is an echo, or a connection to technopoly and the technologicalification of technologyification of our humanity.
Speaker 3:Seeing the world through a very specific framework.
Speaker 2:Well, I sit here and I go, so it's like part of my thinking is and I have the section where I talk about these ingredients, like these ingredients of what it was that allows these people to achieve greatness. Where do I say it? This isn't very long and I'm having to yeah, oh yeah, there isn't an obsession or fixation or compulsion to be great. So, while you're ambitious, these missing ingredients prevent you from converting that ambition into making something that people consume, love and share. Yeah, I, it's almost like again wanting an external force, like, oh well, your, your genetic makeup doesn't predispose you to intense competitiveness or, um, grandiose ambitions or whatever, like, like, I almost want to take those people part of me that that might be frustrated or wondering why I'm different.
Speaker 2:I know, obviously we're all different and you know we can sit here and say, well, you know, michael Jordan was super competitive, alex Sothe was this, or, um, uh, uh, bruce Springsteen was this. But, like, part of my brain wants to take this social science technology and try to break these people down into these ingredients that created this alchemy that led to whatever it was that made them make great music, great photographs, great films, whatever. And again, my definition of great is not fame and fortune, but sort of like. And again, my definition of great is not fame and fortune, but sort of like, you know, a lot of people really being drawn to the work and connecting with them and meaning something to them and maybe their pride in the discipline and the attention to craft and the mastery of craft and all that that they dispatched onto the project. Um, and so it's not necessarily like why do I suck or why am I not?
Speaker 2:great or why am I not? It's more like a fascination with what it is within us that that creates the foundation for that to happen. Now I'll wrap up my point. Part of my brain wants to find the genetic markers that made that happen, but then Do you think there are?
Speaker 2:Well, this is the thing. This is all me thinking out loud. It's me wondering. It's me wondering, right, it's me wondering can we be reduced to that?
Speaker 2:And because my dad didn't pursue writing beyond his 20s and and I never got to talk to him about it, I don't know if he was just like a, it was a fantasy for him, if, like, the reality of having a daughter made him feel at peace with not pursuing it anymore, even though he, you know, like, you hear stories about people that let go of something, but they still do it.
Speaker 2:They still write every night, or they write every day, or they have, you know, novels in the drawer that they just never shared with anybody and it's discovered at the end of their life or whatever. Um, but that makes me wonder, like, is there a connection with him having similarities in his, uh, his pursuit of the arts and writing and all that with mine? But then, on the other side, you know the, the person, you know the version of me. That is not the version, but the, the part of me that's a little bit more spiritual and metaphysical and all that goes. This is not stuff that you can like put in a beaker and and like see what the molecular breakdown is.
Speaker 3:It doesn't work like that it's it's magic or you know whatever I mean, I think, I think it's just the world is very chaotic it's hard to again. This is just one worldview and anybody can have their own, but I like you. Every day, you have the choice to do something or not do something. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And you're making that choice and I don't think it's really predestined. You know you can change your space, you can change your habits, you can change your. You know your space, you can change your habits, you can change your lifestyle, and it's just kind of up to you. And I know there's a large group of people that don't want to agree with that and you don't have to. But I think there's a number of worldviews that you can hold, an infinite number of them. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I, you know, my outlook on it is find the ones that are most, I guess, the most they give you the most opportunity, or opportunity is a poor word choice, but they give you the most potential outcomes, or number of highest number of potential outcomes, or highest number of potential positive outcomes, which is a very mathematic way of looking at it. But yeah, and then just, you know seek those, you know apply those worldviews and you know, just operate through those worldviews. And, um, you know, there's, there's situations and things like that where it's like, well, you can't just change your worldview, you can't just do this. And um.
Speaker 3:I just happen to have a more malleable view of things. But yeah, I mean, I, I, you know there's obviously genetic predispositions, especially in physics. But I do think that's kind of a conceit of trying to take that physical, that like sports metaphor and apply it to art, and I don't know if I don't think that's a, it's a metaphor, that kind of fits but it's clunky, you know it doesn't quite like there's some edges that are peeking out and it doesn't click in and it just looks a little off.
Speaker 3:I don't think the metaphor quite fits as well as people like to think it does. But everything's commercialized and I think you've seen, especially in the past two decades, you've seen that metaphor get essentially just shoved down, your you know.
Speaker 2:I think it's. It's everything from you know sports. Sports is gamification, right, you have measurements like the fastest runner, the fastest swimmer.
Speaker 3:It's a gamification and you can't really gamify something that's, you know, subjective but you do get a little bit of in sports.
Speaker 2:You get a little bit because you know, you get a little bit because you know I think there is artistry obviously in what these athletes do. And you do get from a number of different people that have, you know, been sports fans their whole lives, where if they had to pick the five best football players or basketball players, their five might have some overlap but it might be different than the others and it could be like yeah, well, these are the five that scored the most points in the nba, points like the top score to the lowest score. Yeah, but they're not the best. Yeah, like that guy who hit baseball. Now all those home runs also had the most strikeouts.
Speaker 2:You know, like you or like the way they played the game, like some people might rank the top five not necessarily based on stats, but sort of like people get so caught up in that, though, and it's just like you said, it is game, and yeah, it's easy, but it's not.
Speaker 3:It's not useful. There's no utility. There it's. It's honestly, I mean, I almost think it's a complete waste of time and it's easy. Maybe for a lot of people too, it's easier to like go and rank and do your rankings and who's the? And we like it and it makes you know. We love putting the world into these easier to understand boxes, but it's just completely not useful and you know you, you can spend the time doing better, better things, and yeah, it's like.
Speaker 3:I mean it's it's like the national inquire you know it's really seductive and like at a, at a primal level, it's fun to do, but it's not, you know it's. It's like eating junk food and just eating. You're eating junk food at the end of the day, and I think it's better just to go out and be like okay, I like, you know I like films. Why do I I like films? What do I like about it? Yeah and uh. Or you know, I like this person's writing, or I like this person's photography. What do I like about it?
Speaker 3:Um, and instead of just, you know, starting from okay, what did this person do to become successful? How can I follow what they did to become? Instead, just be like like, what do I like about their work? Yeah, do I like their work? Yeah, do I just like their work? Because other people like their work? Um, like, if you can answer that question on all the things you quote, unquote, like or love or enjoy, you're going to learn a lot more. It's the introspection. You're going to learn a lot more about yourself and the world, the outside world, than you would by, just, you know, some arbitrary ranking of greatness or, and I don't know. This is just such an interesting it just it does frustrate me more and more when people kind of use that greatness thing because I think it it prevents them from just, you know, just do it, just do the thing, Just start operating.
Speaker 3:And also with the example of your dad and we talked about this a little bit on the phone, but like did he find more satisfaction in something else? There's definitely people who give something up that they love because they just couldn't, and then you know, there's always a part of them that feels a little broken, that they're not pursuing that thing.
Speaker 3:That's a different discussion. But a lot of people say they want to do one thing and they're sourcing that off of. It is a mimetic reaction. They see something and they want to be that thing. You see, all of you know everybody goes to film school. What do they want to do? They want to write and direct, right. And then a lot of people you know some people really do want to write and direct, yeah, and there is a clarity. And I again, I'm just using the film thing because it's familiar, right.
Speaker 3:But a lot of some people get way more joy off of, you know, building the photography or set design or acting, or some people are like you know what Film is actually not for me at all. It's all a self-discovery process and the the more man this ties in. Well, but the more you can do what you were, what you're doing like, be introspective and build your life to reflect you and not what you think should be, the quicker you're going to discover what it is you actually care most about. And then don't focus on anything other than just your best version of that thing, your own definition of whatever you know, doing it at a high level, is you're going to get a lot further, I think, than just looking at the external world of like I want to be great. You know serving that ego and I want to be great. What are other people like? Who, who out there is said to be great? Okay, I like that person because they're. I'm not saying you're doing this either. I'm just no yeah
Speaker 3:no, but you know, I want to be a great filmmaker. And then who's the most successful filmmakers right now? And then you look at, like you know, I don't know, like, uh, christopher nolan. You know, yeah, his films make a lot of money there. You know they have a certain artistic style to them or whatever. I want to be that.
Speaker 3:And then you copy that Tarantino or whatever the popular culture filmmaker is of the of the time, and then you absolutely just try to copy that because you know that person's great, that person's doing what I think I want to do. And you go all in on that and you're just, you know, creating a facsimile of that person's work, right, and you actually don't care, like there is no interest. It's just you're going completely off of external forces and you know you don't even, in some cases, care about, yeah, the thing that you're doing. And then, when their path doesn't work for you, you're like, well, I failed, right. And then you like you give it up or it's maybe you didn't fail, but you just tried to create, you know, like a copycat version of something that you didn't truly care about or understand in the first place. And yeah, you failed at that. But then you know you're just telling yourself you're not good enough to to do the work and yeah, and I, I want to I don't know how much of that made sense.
Speaker 2:No, it makes absolute sense and I think you know and I want to just want to clarify too, I think, what, what some of this means, sort of where it comes from too. I didn't write this because I was sitting there going.
Speaker 2:These are the people that I think are great and have done great work and I deserve I think I deserve, or I, I like I should be, uh, amongst them. Yeah, in my particular discipline or whatever, which I, you know all over the place. Or you know I'm a YouTuber but I, you know my over the place. Or you know I'm a YouTuber but I, you know my other final cut YouTuber friends have more subscribers than me and I deserve to be like, considered like the great YouTuber of my category of YouTube videos or street photography or whatever it is. I do. I don't sit there and go. I sh, I should be great too. Why am I not I go? What is it that separates someone in my position which is not like, oh, this shitty guy in the middle of Iowa, like, oh, this average person, but I do sit there and go, like what is the difference between someone that thinks about making great work and the people that actually do? It is almost like an objective question versus why am I not? Where they are.
Speaker 2:It's just what does separate us. No, no, no, no. Why am I not where they are? What does separate us? I hope?
Speaker 3:what I was saying wasn't putting because like and I almost think that I mean I use it as an example, like the introspection you're doing and the work that you're doing in your space and with your life in general, and just the willingness to adapt and change is putting you in a direction towards a personal success that I think would rival the personal success, professional success. That's kind of just an open game. Maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't. I don't think that's a good measure to pull from, but I do think that, yeah, I don't, I want to just sit a little bit more and kind of, but I yeah, it's the other.
Speaker 2:The other element of this, too, is, I think, the thing that I don't necessarily ruminate about, where something like this comes up. It's not you know why isn't the work I'm doing. You know, um, because I know cause. I also know that the that the work I'm doing is not. I basically sit there and go with everything that I've made, whether it's a YouTube video or the studio overhaul I can feel myself being impatient or wanting this part of it to be done, or like that's good enough. Yeah, and and part of this comes from I don't know that Bruceuce springsteen ever went- yeah it's fine, you know, yeah, like it's good enough.
Speaker 3:Well, I think, though, there's. This is so weird that we're having this conversation right now because last night audrey and I went to see collateral oh yeah
Speaker 3:nice, which you know, we've seen it, but yeah, it was in theaters and a friend of ours was, you know, doing the programming and this is literally collateral, like you know, and the reaction to what you're just saying is like, where is like, is the line? I think there's a simple way to look at it where and I don't want to oversimplify, but where is it? Just like thinking and doing, like you know, you said what's the difference between these people who are doing and me who's thinking about it? And it's like that's the difference, right, you know, there's great Tom Cruise quote in that movie where he's like, he's like you're going to sit here, you know, and think about this for the next 20 years, when the only you know difference between you know you here and you, there is a down payment on a Lincoln town car and, uh, you know, picking up the phone and calling that it's like, yeah, you can sit here and just think and think and think and go through all the scenarios and tell yourself I'm being strategic or, oh, I'm making sure that everything is aligned.
Speaker 3:But you know, the difference between you and that person in your head is, you know, the down payment on a Lincoln Town Car. It's just very simple of you know. We can sit here and be ideas people and think through things and come up with, you know, really effective ideas, but the difference is just picking it up and executing on it Well, and that's like the thing that.
Speaker 1:I.
Speaker 3:And then, like Bruce Springsteen, had to pick up a guitar for the first time at some point. And he just continued to work towards whatever, like he just he didn't even continue. I don't think he worked towards anything. He just continued to work towards whatever. He didn't even continue. I don't think he worked towards anything, he just continued to do it.
Speaker 2:But again I am like I obviously can't sit down with Bruce and be like were there moments where you thought to yourself you know what my vocals were? Fine, I just want to be done and go home. I know they're not perfect and we could make them better and I'm capable of it, but it it's, it's good enough that, like those are some things that when I'm working on something where I ask myself like, oh, I could do it this way, but that's a little bit more work, that's more time consuming, I want to get this out now, like you know what I mean, like sort of not the long view, not the discipline, not the mastery of the craft, it's, it's. You know, sometimes I just let those. When I'm actually trying to execute something, like I'm going to write an article or I'm going to make a video or I'm going to build this shelf, you know that I'm sort of like you know that's good enough, and and again, just wondering are and?
Speaker 2:and there's no doubt Bruce and uh and uh and uh Steven look at their work and they see flaws, predominantly right? I could have done this, we could have that Steven especially cause he's reliant on a collaboration. Obviously, bruce is reliant on a collaboration as well with the band and all that. But ultimately, if bruce wants like an extra couple hours in the studio, like it's going to happen, um, you know, we all see the flaws in our work.
Speaker 2:But you know, I just wonder how much if you got them into a room and talked to them like steven, was there a day where you're like you're like thinking about the blocking of a scene and the camera movement and you're just like you know what? This would be really cool to do, this would be amazing, but it's just too much work, I'm just not gonna do it. Obviously there's limitations, like, oh, I want to do this, but the budget, the thing, like I can't, like we already did this, like there's compromises all the time, but I just always am I'm wondering to myself the proportion of compromises in my execution versus the proportion in theirs I wonder if, if the idea of compromise is a little different, though, between the two, because you're compromising on certain things in like a hypothetical sense, whereas if steven's blocking like he's already trapped himself within the limitations or the parameters of the shooting schedule the actors, the budget, all of that, and your compromises are more hyper.
Speaker 3:They're on the other side of that, right. So you're thinking, okay, jump over the studio schedule. Well then I would have to compromise this, this and this, whereas he's already forced into action. There's got to be a result. You're either going with A, b or C as the outcome, and so he might have to compromise, and there might still be a compromise, but one way or another, that scene has to be shot by the end of the day, right? Whereas it's easier to sit on, you know our end of it and be like well, what if we're in this place and we have, like the blockings there and we're gonna have to, and then it's just not gonna be perfect, like I think that's an easier thing to do from the outside.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when you just in the flow and you know it's like yeah six hours until wrap you know, and we've both experienced this you know, when you're on set there's no room to mess around and even some of like you you can't sit at a table and think through where that's going to take you yeah but when you're there, you might be presented with something that solves the, is the solution is the perfect solution that you would have never.
Speaker 3:You could have sat and thought through yeah for you know, 20 years and you would have never came up with so. So I think there's just again, with that line of thinking and doing like there's something to action where typically I think more optimal outcomes come from action than from thought or from you know. Meditation, premeditation, yeah, so you know is the secret to getting. You know, getting better or not getting hate. See, I, I, I try to break outside of that framework whenever I can, because I don't think it's mastery or something but even that's like there's something to pursue.
Speaker 3:It's just doing something over like you know, trying to yeah, it's like define what your definition of of you know personal, you know greatness is, or whatever if we want to use those terms and then seek after that and that and be okay if that looks completely different than somebody else's and I think here's the and again.
Speaker 2:This comes full circle for what we've been talking about over the last year, you know, art and commerce. I feel like my conflict in this, my pain, my whatever it is, ultimately I go. I'm fine with making my YouTube videos, I'm fine with overhauling my studio. I'm fine with going out and taking pictures of old satellite dishes.
Speaker 2:The way that I am, I'm good with all of that yeah but I don't have any fucking money yeah, yeah I don't have a newer car that isn't rusty, yep, and it's not because I give a shit about what other people think of me. I want these tools that let me just feel a little bit. You just want security a little bit more stable a little bit again. There's always going to be ups and downs. There's always going to be unforeseen expenses. There's always going to be something you want to improve, whether it's something about your house or this or that. I get all that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want a higher goddamn baseline, absolutely because, I feel like I can't enjoy doing the work that I'm fine with. I'm okay that I'm not Steven Spielberg. I'm okay that I'm not Alex Oth. I'm okay that I'm not Bruce Springsteen. I like making internet videos in my basement and I like getting in my truck and taking pictures of old satellite dishes and maybe making a book out of it or whatever. I'm totally good. I don't feel like a failure in all that. I'm happy with all of it, but I'm just fucking tired of looking at my goddamn account and having no goddamn money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100% Tired of it.
Speaker 2:And I'm tired of spending time flipping cameras. I don't want to flip cameras, I want to just make shit, and that is what this is. And I go is this an inescapable truth of my genetic makeup that connects back to my dad? And I can't talk to my dad and go why did you do this? Why did you stop doing it? Why was it important to you know, when I was probably in my preteens and teens, where they sort of stabilize their finances even though they probably never felt truly comfortable? Was that better for you, ultimately, than to have what I have, which is more, a little bit less, uh, less security? But I'm doing the work that I want to be doing.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Whereas what I think, I think some of it, like some of those people you named, like they just happened to reach a certain level of prestige and financial stability at a younger age, and there's certainly examples to the counter of that, sure, but I mean there's a in the Tennessee Williams Museum there was like one of his most famous quotes is you can be young with no money. You can't be old with no money, it's just the world we live in yeah.
Speaker 3:And yeah, it's just one of those things where it's like you've got to. You know that won't change. Like that is how this, the system is, the way the system is. You can talk about it Like I. Generally think it's, yeah, it's just, it's effective enough, you know, and so you can sit and be like oh, like I, just yeah, like I. You know you can be upset at it, but you know yelling at the system is not going to do anything or you can, you know, break it down and yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's how to contend with it, and I think it's.
Speaker 3:it's difficult because you figured ways to contend like you contend with it every day through your main channel, through selling things and, um, I mean, how many people are listening to this that are in the same exact spot where they had something they wanted to pursue, right, but it's like, well, I've got a family and I've got a house, and I've got this and I've got that, and I have no other option than to. I got to pay the bills before I can do my art.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's how do we find a better meeting point between those two conflicting ideas? Is that? Is that possible?
Speaker 2:right and you know I I have no, no delusion that there's some magical state of nirvana that I can achieve in life, where all of that melts away and you're just problem free, happily creating and making internet videos in your basement and taking pictures of old satellite dishes and just like free to just purely do that and have that, that clarity of focus on that.
Speaker 3:And obviously there are stuff in other areas issues with friends, drama with your family, um, you know I'd be curious to hear other people's experiences on this, because I do this is like a very universal thing, right? Yes I don't have enough money to do what I want to do yeah, yeah. And how you know some people overcome that. Some people like are currently in that kind of in that current and where do you?
Speaker 2:well, and just that, this idea that you often we have to do something we don't want to do to feel better financially and doing something we love for some, for a lot of us, doesn't get us where we need to be financially like, and this is not like. Yeah, that's what's called reality, matt, that's called like life, but it's just one.
Speaker 3:I think that's a bit of a conceit. Like I look that it sounds like I'm saying that from a very like privileged perspective and I'm not trying to. But as soon as you accept something to be like got to fight against that idea, to stand any chance of changing that reality for yourself, and yeah, I mean, if you just fold under the weight of that, then there's going to be nothing that changes unless you win the lottery which is not going to happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you might as well assume it's just not going to be nothing that changes Right, unless you win the lottery which is not going to happen.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you might as well assume it's just not going to happen. Period Right.
Speaker 2:And I think that's part of the things that swirl around in a head like mine, is part of you fantasizes about some kind of lottery moment because you're so tired of the conflict between wanting to do what you love, knowing that it's not sunshine and rainbows all the time. Yeah, that you're never just going to have like a problem-free life or a conflict-free life or a drama-free life or an insecurity-free life, but that you're, you're, I don't, but that you're, you're, I don't know that you have some kind of baseline that I don't know. I don't think there is a baseline.
Speaker 2:Again, every, every every time you hit a certain level then there's a new batch of things you don't have and like I'm, tired of that too, I'm tired of knowing that, but I don't feel that and I I have to sit here and think about those, these, and I'm a very optimistic person and I don't know why I have this, this I don't know. You know, in this I'm starting to ramble here. I apologize, but like I like, part of me is just like why do you think about this stuff so often and again?
Speaker 2:it's not like every day. I'm sitting there going. I think you just sit there and go. I know what I want to do, yeah, but I can't just do it all the time. Yeah, I have to do this other stuff that I kind of like or I don't like at all, because I have to pay for this shit and I think it sucks to do this, but it's like Everybody's like yeah it's called being an adult, you idiot.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I mean Tough shit. There's that's one way to look at it. I think you know, until the circumstance is not the circumstance, like you have to like, if you want to, if you feel like you have to work to, you know, make a living, but you have this thing that you want to do, the wrong mindset to have is in my, in my thought, the wrong mindset to have is, well, I'm, I can't do that because I've got to do this. You've got to figure out a way to make time for that other thing. Yeah, and hopefully eventually you can make more time for it. But make time for it and make that sacred. Yeah, because who knows, that might be all you get. Yeah, but at least you get that. Yeah, like, at least you get an hour a day or an hour a week.
Speaker 3:Yeah, at least you get that Right. So make that time for it and make that, you know, sacred. Continue that, yeah, and then hopefully the other situation changes. But I think the trap that a lot of people fall into and I've done this before too is you, you just, well, I've got to do this because I got to make a living, yep, and I'm just, oh, I hate this everything's, and then you don't make time for anything else yeah, because it's easy to not do that, and then you almost get into this.
Speaker 3:Well, once I reach this point, and again it's just. I'm putting the scene from Collateral at the beginning of this, because it's just so perfect of what we're and sadly I still haven't seen Collateral.
Speaker 3:You see, I was watching it last night after our phone call and I was just like God, this is literally I mean I almost think you should watch it when you get home. I know, yeah, it's not like the greatest movie ever, it's a, it's a really good, it's a good movie. I just it's a really, you know, good approach to kind of some of these ideas. Yeah, it's an interesting approach. Some of these ideas and, um, yeah, I mean, you got to make time until you can make like, yeah, you know, you've only got one opportunity to do this whole.
Speaker 3:Thing and it might as well take advantage of every opportunity you get to do the things that you care about.
Speaker 2:And the best thing is, like you know, ultimately I am not like just sitting in this ruined, tortured state of this is my lot in life and I'm so unfortunate to be dealing with this. I'm down in my studio toiling away at all these things every day, and that is the fact that I even have enough money to not have to throw it all aside and get a day job and all that. Yet, um, I'm incredibly fortunate and privileged to be in that situation and I, you know, certainly my, my wife helps with that as well, with having, uh, her career and all that that that helps with that. So I do get to go down and make an internet video, or go out and do some photography, or make a video for my photography channel, or sit here on a Sunday afternoon and make this podcast, again, all of these things being the connection between what I think, how I feel what.
Speaker 2:I make and then how I share it, and the desire to do that over and over again with this, the two YouTube channels and then my personal work. I'm incredibly lucky that I even get that much time.
Speaker 3:You get to do a lot of things.
Speaker 2:I get to do a lot of things but I sit there, impatient and incredibly inspired and driven to want to do even more of it. But the anchor around it all is just a feeling of sort of just those financial concerns, sort of just those financial concerns, yeah, and sort of riding the razor's edge at least what I think is the razor's edge of sort of financial safety.
Speaker 3:Yeah, during that, I think you've got to be really careful, though, to not like I don't know I. I just think it's really easy. You know, you use the metaphor of riding the razor it's really easy to you know, fall off or get cut, or you know, absolutely yeah. You've got to be careful because you can get into a very negative loop of thinking and almost assure that you're not going to do anything that you want to do. Right, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm interested to see what this looks like in a month or two months, because you're going through a very like yeah, and I want to clarify too that when I talk about the money aspect, it's how much money my business has. My wife and I, we're not rich by any means, we're okay. We have money and savings. She makes a great salary, you're okay.
Speaker 2:We're okay, we're okay. It's that I look at what my business generates for revenue, or how much money is in my business account, or how much money is in my business account, or how much money is coming in through a sponsorship or channel revenue or affiliate revenue or whatever, and when it's low and it's not where it needs to be, to happily write a check for my business insurance, or to happily write a check for my accountant to do this or to invest in new equipment or whatever.
Speaker 2:Um, that feeling invest in old equipment or old equipment that feeling of frustration that things are so restricted and so and there's so much fear there like, well, one wrong decision or one and one bad talk about that.
Speaker 3:that's what I was getting at, and you talk about that all the time of acting from a place of fear. Right, you know you're acting from a place. You're projecting fear onto everything yeah yeah, and once you start that death spiral, it's very hard and I don't you know, I'm not saying that you've started that dust no, my, my optimism is that I am so I, I, I know people that have are in that dust spiral.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's. I mean I, I hate to, I I don't think it's inescapable, it's very difficult to get out of. Yeah, and again, that's just getting into the framework that you apply to things and I so, yeah, I mean just, I think our you know way, the way we approach conversations is we just talk about things and then hopefully somebody else, one person out there, can listen and get some sort of positive insight out of that, out of the nonsense that we talk about for an hour every couple of weeks.
Speaker 3:And that's that's my advice to that person would just be like don't get caught up in that, like maintaining an optimistic outlook is the most important thing.
Speaker 2:Yep, and I think staying, just staying, just staying focused on what you're doing. You know, obviously, you know you don't want to. You don't want to focus on your artwork so much that you don't pay your bills or that you, um, you know you get foreclosed on or your, your car gets repossessed or whatever. But hey, I'm, I'm making those internet videos, like I'm doing the thing. You know you want to. You want to have that part of your brain managing those things as best you can. And again, the point of sharing this this is just literally something that I just stream of consciousness, put out there, because I had a strong emotion, a strong feeling while I was sitting there at my computer and I just was like, okay, I'm just going to chase this down. The whole point of this is, and putting it on the internet, is, is, is not Alex, be my therapist for this hour and make me feel better about all my problems, or sort of like. Tell me I'm wrong.
Speaker 3:And you and I have talked about this stuff all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I certainly want to work through this and and and have a bit of a therapy session, but I also want, for people who watch this and like our conversations and all that want to go. Oh yeah, what Matt's talking about. I've experienced that too, or I feel that every day. Or, honestly, go give me a break, dude. Quit your crying. You have any idea how good you've got it.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Maybe that perspective is valuable to me to help me when these feelings or emotions do bubble up that you know you can um give them a reality check.
Speaker 3:I think both things can be true at the same time, though. It can be get over yourself, but it's also not. You know, every person should strive to get you know, have a little bit of progress right, whatever that looks like to to them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and just you know, uh, you certainly might end with get over yourself, but when that raw feeling bubbles up and you know and and kind of takes over, that's the truth. Like that's, this is happening, and I sit there and go why what's this connected to? Is this connected to my dad? Is it connected to my grandpa? Is it? What's the difference between what I'm doing and what others are doing? Is this ego? Is this, um, you know, all is this art versus commerce, and that's just a time. You know. All is this art versus commerce, and that's just a time, you know, a timeless battle that we're all gonna deal with the rest of our lives, no matter what.
Speaker 3:All of that we we're at an an hour 23, holy crap that was an hour 23 minutes yeah um, really quick though before this was an hour to read my, my, no before we well, so you know, we started all of this kind of like. There's the I mean the up, like there's a top, like you reach a great a point, that's the greatest, and it's like a very vertical framework of the world. Yeah, there's the Mount Rushmore and there's the peak and there's carved in stone the climbing the mountain, they're the best, what?
Speaker 3:and there's the peak and there's carved in stone the climbing the mountain, they're the best, what? What's a better metaphor? I know, yeah, and is it? Is it a? You know, there is no perfect answer.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, I think that the flaw is there's a comparison, it's it's how do we all rank amongst each other, and so how?
Speaker 3:do we escape that? Is what's a what's a better way for somebody who is maybe caught up in that to start to apply what's a? Better lens. What's a better filter like? Is it a? You know, the waves are rough, the waves are calm. I don't know what is the?
Speaker 2:I don't know what it is. That just lets us sort of go. Are you happy with what you're making? Yeah, like in the vacuum of what it is why?
Speaker 3:Like do you love what you? Is that giving you anything? Right, yeah, is it giving you any sort of you know, under better understanding, uh, internal fulfillment, like yeah, or just sort of I made this thing and and I've, I've moved, I've progressed.
Speaker 2:You know, I might not be able to say exactly how, but I feel a little bit better Um, and I want to keep keep doing it and I like this, I like this thing that I made. Maybe it's just just that. Yeah, Do you like what you made? I think, and all by itself, in a vacuum, not compared to this person's video or that person's movie or this person's photograph. Do you just like this thing?
Speaker 3:And not even pulling back from that. Do you like it because you like it, not because some other person likes it, because you're getting some external validation, because it's fitting some sort of mimetic desire that you have, or now I have this tool that can get me this thing.
Speaker 2:That's for my ego yeah oh, this is a photograph that I think people will like, so I can be a famous.
Speaker 3:See, I want to, I want to hone in on that and maybe that's something that we need to, you know, think about more, because I want to find that lens that's a little bit more effective and at least, like a word, a tiny voice in a world of voices, but I mean it's, I think it's a noble thing to really start to communicate in that way Like we've got to stop If we think it is detrimental.
Speaker 3:We've got to stop, you know, communicating or existing in that framework, yeah, and I do think it's detrimental. I think the whole like greatest thing is just very well, not even the greatest, just like Bruce Springsteen is thinking about making great work, am I not?
Speaker 2:You start comparing yourself immediately. Yeah, point of comparison.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I think the point of comparison, though, is because it's like you're putting Bruce, you're stacking Bruce Springsteen up higher than you are, and it's like I've got to climb to get up there.
Speaker 3:What does his greatness look like? So I can go towards that greatness, and it's just it's. I mean, it's preventing a large group of people from achieving anything at all. Right see, but there I go again. I know, yeah, it's, and it's difficult, and I I want to make an active effort to kind of remove the way we talk about these remove that from the way we talk about these things, yeah and I, I think again too, just like art.
Speaker 3:Please give input like if anybody's listening this far, and you know you, you're kind of on par with the conversation here. What have you like, you know? Have you found something that's more?
Speaker 2:applicable. Yeah, I don't know, you know, I don't know what it is that makes me go. Oh, bruce said that like I just wanted to make great music, like do I think about that. With what I'm doing, I don't know why I kind of cut corners, or maybe I phoned it in, or maybe I didn't do that for oh no, you know, you start catastrophizing your own, the difference between you and someone else, instead of just going. I'm different, I it that's it.
Speaker 2:If everybody just made to that metric I think we'd have a lot there'd be a lot better work in the world, but yeah, anyways, we don't want to. We don't want another longest episode, so thanks for letting me share my thing.
Speaker 3:That was good thanks, I enjoyed it. You gotta write those out. You gotta see. This is what I'm talking about I know this is my response to it like it's something we've talked about before, but this is why I want to start writing my thoughts out more, oh, yeah. Because for the past year, I think because of this podcast, I've almost confused dialogue with actual, you know, dissection and analytical thinking. Yeah, so it's easy to talk and to you know, take a little floating thought from here and a thought from here and here and here and trying to connect these things.
Speaker 3:But that's the surface, that's the first level, that's the first layer and I need to go and kind of put stuff together a little more co-efficiently.
Speaker 2:This is what happens in my brain all the time, like I'm doing this in my mind a lot.
Speaker 3:And same, but I take shortcuts in my head that I can't take on paper Writing yeah.
Speaker 2:I think I went further, because I started writing A hundred percent.
Speaker 3:If I just sat there thinking I think that's one of the reasons why writing is so essential, and I, yeah, so we're cool.
Speaker 2:Thanks for the thanks for making me buy typewriters. I'll do all this, which is what I used to do. I had a typewriter in my room and I used to journal and all that stuff.
Speaker 3:I'm going to play Matt, the scene from Collateral now, please.
Speaker 2:Bye.
Speaker 4:It had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer. Thank you,
