Studio Sessions
Discussions about art and the creative process. New episodes every other week.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
Studio Sessions
32. Finding Authenticity Amidst Cultural Noise and Pressure
We explore Matt's newly remodeled studio space, which serves as a backdrop for a deeper discussion about authenticity in creative work and spaces. Through examining the contrast between Matt's structured professional background and his maximalist studio design, we delve into how personal spaces can reflect our true selves rather than external expectations.
We also reflect on the era of "hustle culture", entrepreneurship, and content creation, examining how these movements influenced so many peoples creative journeys and decision-making. The conversation evolves into a discussion about the importance of making genuine choices in creative work and life, free from the pressure to signal status or conform to others' expectations. - Ai
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
Just for the listeners before we get started. You'll constantly hear us referencing Matt's studio space, and the reason behind that is because we actually filmed and recorded this episode in Matt's brand new studio. To see that and to get to see what that space is like, and even watch a tour, I would highly recommend going over to the YouTube channel Studio Sessions Pod, where you can find it in the podcast description, and watching the video version of this one at least, obviously, if all you can get to right now is the audio version. I think that's fine. I think the conversation holds up just as well, but video definitely adds a nice layer. You'll also hear a couple of audio issues, particularly with my microphone. I think we identified the culprit there is a bad XLR cable. We've since replaced those, so hopefully that doesn't carry forward in future episodes. Anyways, as always, thanks for listening, thanks for watching.
Speaker 2:And it'd been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summons so I'm trying to find the line between what we've already kind of talked about.
Speaker 1:I feel like we've dissected the studio space quite a bit. We don't need to get into that, um, but I think there's something interesting about. We almost touched on it a little bit in the truck on the way over here a little pre-show about how, like, you've kind of aligned with something that has almost an unlimited longevity to it, whereas before you were kind of playing into a more of a trend or a cultural I guess a cultural trend. What was expected of me versus what?
Speaker 1:a little bit yeah and so I'd like to get into that a little. But also, um, we kind of came to the realization when we were touring here, like the way matt's like matt, his space is like very just. I mean, yeah, it's like maximalist.
Matt:Yes, and like chaotic not chaotic, but like it's just I'm full and rich, busy maybe to busy to an objective observer yeah, like someone who just walks in the room like holy shit, this is a lot of stuff. Yeah, and you know I'll admit sometimes I'm. You know there's there's going to be an editing process. It might be like you know what, maybe we don't need quite this down to. You know, it's like, um, the Russian dolls, it's like big and I like all the way down to like tiny little things that are on the shelf and all that. So I think there will be some editing and obviously some stuff just with, like, the mechanics. Well, this doesn't feel right to go from here to here or this.
Matt:This needs to move. You know stuff like that. But yeah, I, I and there's actually a few more things that I need to put up something on the wall over here. There's a poster that's coming in the mail for this. I'll probably put another poster behind the door, you know. So there's still some, some, some room for, like wall decor and whatnot. But yeah, I mean, this is uh, this is what's inside, my head turned inside out.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Matt:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We thought it was funny, though, because Matt, if you've ever worked with Matt, he's super. I mean, just type a brain kind of regimented just boom, boom, boom, Like he's an ad, he's ad he's.
Speaker 1:you know he's been an editor project manager, yeah, supervisor supervisor like very, you know, structured yes, organized roles and then this is his studio and then if you've ever worked with me, I'm I mean, I don't know, maybe I don't want to self-diagnose, but I'm pretty opposite of that, a little bit just chaos, and yeah, it's hard because so much of what we've done together, you know not a lot on set.
Matt:I mean we've made that, you know that spec commercial and all that, and you know you're certainly focused but you're also, you know not, maybe not spinning as many plates as like a project manager would.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, and we've done photography and stuff together, which is fairly straight this would probably be a better question to ask people who work with me well.
Matt:But yeah, here's where I think it comes up. I think sometimes it comes up in conversation a little bit um, where you'll have maybe a couple things going on and you know you'll just sometimes, uh, make things move in an interesting direction, not like abrupt or out of nowhere like your complete subject change. So it comes up there. I think, too, whenever we talk something especially project-based, that gets you fired up. It is like it feels like this room in your brain.
Matt:Like everything is coming all at once, like, oh, we could do this, let me do this, and I have a hard time keeping up with you sometimes just in like get you know having that conversation. So yeah, it's, but then the your external.
Matt:Your external world is yeah, and I have to be careful because I've sometimes I don't want to bring you over, bring over too many treasures to you yeah I saw this and reminded me of alex, you know, like I gotta be careful that I'm not treasure hunting for you and like this is all cool, matt, but like I don't want 800 things on a shelf, I want eight I will, I will talk.
Speaker 1:I'm not afraid to toss something, but so far we haven't even crossed that threshold.
Matt:If you were, maximalist in one area. In your space, the only thing I could think of is your books yeah yeah, yeah, for sure, and I think it's going to continue to grow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the books. Well, and because especially recently, you know, moving to more of like an analog note system, yeah.
Speaker 1:The books are part of the process, like reading the books Absolutely and then being able to go back and reference them, yep, and have that as a physical object. It's just part of this reference system. So, yeah, the books are going to continue to probably get out of control. I mean, audrey and I like even when we're looking for houses now it's like need something that could kind of become a library, or are gonna have to like add that, add that on agreed, because it's just. I mean I'm not like necessarily, like I don't love the idea of we got rid of a bunch of books a couple weeks ago and I felt good yeah, but yeah, there's definitely a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1:If I, if I read something and it really has, at least you know, a few really interesting ideas, I'll I'll keep it yeah yeah, it's a little out of control. But well we had to make a rule. Actually, we can't buy anything until we've read like 15 of what we have. It's good.
Matt:Yeah, because we were just and I've done that a little bit with the records, where I'm like if you're gonna, even if it's a dollar, you've got to listen to it and see if you like it or not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and if you like it's just not quite the right thing, then you know, trade it in or sell it or whatever to get something else records, because it's like what was the dollar and like I'll get to it.
Matt:But or you know, maybe I'll grow to like this later, what if in five years I'm kind of I become into?
Speaker 1:this well, you can just get it back like well, and that's that's kind of how I've like I have. We have several books that you know, some Audrey's read and I haven't read, or some I've read and she hasn't read, and then some that neither of us have read, and sometimes you get caught up in like oh, I got to buy this now, and then you'll start it and then it'll get put aside or something. But yeah, I really want to make a point of you know not, I don't want to be the person that just has a bunch of books yes, as decoration yeah, like they're very, very much like a practical item.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, and they have a use and you know they have kind of been incorporated into the space. But yeah, and I've been going through cleaning.
Matt:I did like a deep clean, especially out in the main part of the studio. Uh, you know I was going through all the books and I felt good that I've read a good majority of them.
Matt:There's definitely stuff that has been on the back burner and some of those books are several years old. But I know I'll get to them and I'm not just like grabbing books to grab them and especially thinking not thinking that you thought this way, but like you mentioned decor like oh, I'm going to externalize to people that I'm a smart person by buying this book that will communicate that Very.
Speaker 1:I'm not like against anything, but I very much for my personal. I don't like the idea of decor for decor's sake. Yeah, my personal I don't. I don't like the idea of decor for decor sake. Yeah, I like. I think that all of my favorite spaces the decor is functional.
Matt:Like I, I love plants.
Speaker 1:Yes, um yeah, but plant, even plants have a function, right. Um, like fake plants never really made a lot of sense to me. Yeah, um, but also, yeah, just you know, oh, some people buy typewriters. It's like, put that on a shelf and you can look at it and it's like so what, you have to dust it, like like yeah cool.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, I mean everything, especially in, at least in the studio. Everything in there is most of the books have been read Um, especially the ones in the studio, um, and then, um, you know, everything has a purpose and I feel like this is. I mean, there's a couple of like decor for decor items, but it is very functional and I think part of it, though, like you said, you just haven't gone through that editing process yet yeah, there's been some things where the sort of stuff is like in an audition phase too.
Matt:it's like, um, it's weird too, cause you might you know, you might think some items are decor for decor sake. A lot of times what my thing is is a piece will speak to me and it's like it gives off an energy that fuels my vibe and creativity, and if I just look at it, that's exactly it.
Matt:These things act as a muse. Now there's certainly a lot that's sort of more sentimental or romantic or whatever, but there's some things where I'm like do I need another sound design clock on the left versus the right? Yeah, it's nice to be able to tell the time twice. But I look at these items. I'd never owned one of these before, but I'm like this design-wise, vibe-wise speaks to me and every time I look at it it fuels something and I am very much like I don't know, like a conjurer, a vibe.
Matt:Like I want my space to inform oh no, we're the same there, like I want my space oh no, we're the same there To inform.
Speaker 1:It's got to like and especially now, I've noticed myself doing this a lot more but like I'm not afraid to just walk into a space and just be like, okay, we're going to move this, we're going to put music on, we're going to light a candle, we're going to have some kind of ambience, like we're going to, I'll do that, and it's like it might seem like, okay, why? But I think this is something that we have yet to learn as a culture. Parts of our culture have probably learned it, and I'm sure that there's always examples, you know, that speak against this, but for the most part, I don't think our spaces really inform their utility or they, they, they don't.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's something about like creative spaces yeah, yeah um, but you I can, but I can think about any workplace in America. A lot of them are pretty just sterile and I think there's room to. If you're doing anything creative in that space, I think there's a responsibility and there's actual utility, whether that's financially or just, you know, spiritually or whatever it is, um, mentally, I think there's, there is a positive incentive behind making that space something that, um, I don't want to say like like carries a vibe, but you know, it has you know it has, you walk into it and you feel inspired I think, there's.
Speaker 1:You know I'm a big fan of, like, high ceilings. I think high ceilings like open up the world. I'm a big fan of natural light.
Matt:I know we're like low ceilings and no natural light, but like, like you've counteracted that with like your own, yeah, counterbalance, but yeah, I mean like, but that that is definitely something that makes this space during the day a little difficult yeah, yeah but at night, when the shop lights are off and the um lamps are all on, which is why I have so many lamps that are on dimmers with halogen bulbs.
Speaker 1:Oh, and I'm a huge, a huge believer in like spaces should be able to transition. Yeah. You should have different. That's why I'm not a fan of the gray room with the. You know the couple of lights that are the same all the time and it's just it's the least inspiring. I mean it's the least inspiring, I mean it's you're one step away from a prison cell.
Matt:At that point, and I think, I think there is that element, like you said, with low ceilings and while the main part of my studio is a walkout basement and there's a big window and a door where I can get some light in, you know, and the way that I painted the rafters black, like it's a, it's a space that hugs you yeah and sometimes that's fine and other times it's a little oppressive well, my one of my buddies told me this concept and I was like, oh, that's good, and I tried to look it up and see if there was any kind of you know writing on it or if the idea had been explored and I'm sure it maybe has.
Speaker 1:And, if you know, if anybody knows of you know certain examples.
Speaker 1:I know there's architectural writings and stuff, but he basically was talking about our apartment and like the studio. He's like you guys have mastered your space, yeah, and I love that idea of like you've mastered. And I think you've like mastered your space. You have identified what is possible to get out of it and you squeeze it for everything that it has to give Every last damn drop, every last drop. And yeah, I think that's an interesting idea of like mastering your space. But it's probably a good example of that, yeah.
Matt:And we'll see how it evolves over time.
Speaker 1:Anything that changes, you know it's the in a year you're just like I'm going back.
Matt:Yeah, but, um yeah, a lot of impulse, a lot of um, a lot of uh, instinct, a lot of making it up, making it up, making it up as I go I'm not really good with like all right, I'm gonna clear the room and I'm gonna sit here for a week, not that that's like the proper way to do it, but I'm not the type that's just gonna go measurements, block stuff out.
Matt:Where's this gonna go? It's sort of like I know I want an l-shaped desk made out of the same material. I know I want, like this big shelf or whatever. I mean. It took me a while, like I had this thing shifted down. I'm like no, it's too close. I had a big shelving unit here. I had to take it out and put it back into the storage area to make room for this, mostly because I was adapting its surroundings to the size of this, because I didn't want to cut the boards too much, because, like all these boards, these long ones- oh, I didn't even see Paul Giamatti over there.
Matt:Yeah, from the holdovers. He's watching us. I didn't cut any of these top boards the length that they come from Home Depot, so just stuff like that. And you know there's a lot of imperfections. There's stuff that's a little warped, it's not perfectly flat, it's got issues. You know it's got some stuff that if I had a carpenter that I could contract and make this stuff more custom, it would be closer. You know it'd be much more of walnut and perfected and a beautiful finish and all this stuff. But instead it's home depot boards and you try to pick the best ones from the stack, you cover them in tongue oil and call it good and it'll get the job done. I do want to say real quick, just had a thought. We should do the next episode of Studio Sessions with a— because nobody's really seen your space other than the table view. I feel like photos and stuff.
Matt:Yeah. Yeah. I would— there's a lot less going on in my yeah, I mean, but I'm not not enough I would think it would be interesting if back-to-back episodes we did a little camcorder tour of your studio so that people watching this could then compare and contrast I think so.
Speaker 1:No, no, I think that's a good call yeah, I think that could be. Just remember to do that, because I'll forget.
Matt:But yeah, I, I'll make sure that we've got what we need to do that, but I think that would be fun to see the rest of your space so that you know people have been watching or listening to this Turn the camera.
Speaker 1:It's actually just a set Right. There's just studio lights.
Matt:Wouldn't that be cool? But yeah, yeah, let everybody else see your space too, so they can, you know, continue to, I don't know. See what, see what they, yeah, what they see the differences. Yeah, that'll be good, although we do have the same typewriter now, so at least there's that yeah, we have the same typewriter, maybe another one.
Matt:We'll see tbd so, but one thing I wanted to touch on hold your thought I just want to touch on this because in one of the episodes, this was something I was a little self-conscious about is you know, I've talked a lot about frustrations with money, right, and I think anybody looking at the space would go, holy shit, dude, you probably spent a shit ton of money on this. Like, oh, you're complaining about money. I'll tell you where it and I won't spend a lot of time on this, but we talked in pre-show, there was a lot of like trading up going on.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Matt:I would acquire an item or items and sell it for a profit and put that money towards acquiring this stuff to try to keep the investment of this as revenue neutral as possible.
Speaker 1:And if you don't believe this, he has a spreadsheet tracking all of this, which is just another point to how his brain works.
Matt:Exactly, and I didn't get down to such detail that I could tell you exactly how much out of pocket this cost. But there was that. So a lot of trading up, taking piles of records to the record store and getting some cash for them, taking that profit, putting it into investing in this. There was a point where this was all going to be quite a bit more minimal than what it is, and I don't mean minimal in the sense that there wouldn't have been a lot of stuff but maybe I wouldn't have had the stereo or this Husky tool chest or some of the other items. I bought, some of the frames, et cetera. I think I talked about this, but my grandma passed away a month or so ago and my mom's one of four kids. She had five kids, one passed away a few years ago and from the sale of my grandma's house and my mom's inheritance my mom decided to gift each of her kids a little bit of money from my grandma's inheritance, and so when my mom told me that, I doubled down a little bit on what I was going to do, because it was very important to me that the money that my mom was going to give us from my grandparents' inheritance was not entirely used for something sort of boring and practical like paying off a bill or whatever. Some of it will be for that.
Matt:But I wanted to celebrate their memory and their legacy, especially my grandpa's, because he had a space, not just like this, but he actually had two spaces.
Matt:He had a shop in the basement which he had fully customized with cabinetry and workbenches and his tools and all the stuff he did, because he would fix lawnmowers and other stuff and sell it for a profit, just like I do with typewriters or cameras or whatever.
Matt:And then in the house he had a media room with custom cabinetry and he would digitize eight millimeter home movies and manipulate photos and whatever cheap photo editing software he had. He had VCRs, tape decks, stereo equipment, all that stuff. So I feel a strong connection to my grandpa because I like that stuff too and this stuff is a direct connection to what he was into, and so I wanted to use that money to invest in this stuff, um, and just celebrate their memory, because they played such a huge role in, you know, just going to their house. It was like a magical place and honestly it's kind of corny and it gets me a little emotional, but I walk into this place and some of that carries through, just feeling that sense of sort of wonder and magic, when you look around and you're like all these things and um you know they're they're.
Matt:They just mean a lot to me. I think somebody on the surface could look at this and be like Jesus. You just like to buy stuff, you're a hoarder, you know whatever, maybe negative thought.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's interesting. Each one of these items has kind of been looks like there's a lot in here, but it's not like you just bought like 500 cameras. Yeah, like every one of these just bought like 500 cameras. Yeah, like every one of these was picked out by you. Yeah, like held by you, purchased by you, cleaned by you. Like every VHS tape was like individually selected. You're pretty, you know. We've been to stores. They've got a lot of VHSs. You're pretty selective about what.
Matt:Yeah, we've talked.
Speaker 1:It's a very curated experience. Like yeah, you look around and you're like, oh man, there's a lot of shit here. It's like no, no, no, like all of this is very thoughtful.
Matt:Yeah, it's very intentional and it's certainly connected to what I talked about.
Speaker 1:It's like a song or a great film or a good piece of writing. It's like every word is in there for a reason yeah and you've touched every word or every note or every. You've spent a little time thinking about it.
Matt:Yeah, gone back to yeah and if you've ever read anything that I've written, I use a lot of words yeah, I'm a maximalist verbose. I'm a maximalist in all forms of communication, all of that stuff, and I kind of don't care anymore, I'm not going to like. That's the other thing too. I didn't want to be like well, I like all this stuff, but what will people think if I have like all this?
Speaker 1:stuff. Well, this isn't really for other people either.
Matt:It is not, and it's a sanctuary for me. To just kind of wrap up the whole point of this. We talked about this pre-show, that pendulum swinging from what was expected of me kind of hustle and entrepreneur and transitioning from running a production company into full-time content creation. All right, well, what's the full-time content creator playbook? You got to output a video a week. You got to do this, you got to do that. Content creator playbook. You got to output a video a week. You got to do this, you got to do that. And then you know all the financial stuff that you are not only just managing your finances but figuring out the entrepreneurial things that are going to expand your income.
Matt:I get to sort of the climax of all that and feeling very empty, unfulfilled. We've talked about it numerous times in previous episodes. So the pendulum swings into all of this cameras, street photography, the stuff that you introduced me to, and things get a little crazy and chaotic and all over the place. But it's very focused in my mind.
Matt:Going back to the project management, right, there's a little bit of impulsiveness, there's a little bit of reflex going on like, oh, I'll try that or I'll try that experimentation, but it's deliberate, it's intentional and there is a knowledge that I'm going to—this is all going to coalesce into something that's going to achieve a sense of balance for me, and then I'm going to emerge and go where this has led me and to wrap up the point. Point is um, this studio and this build out is is the climax of all that. So I've really, other than a couple little loose ends, I've reached a point where I'm like okay, yeah, we talked about in the car, I gotta get some of the stuff I backburnered, like my accounting, a couple couple of things.
Matt:I got to just like knock that stuff out for a couple of days, and then I'll get back in front of the camera or behind the camera making things and making work, with this as the new foundation for that.
Speaker 1:The last thing I'll say. You can say as much as you want. We got plenty of time.
Matt:I want it to be a little, you know, like I talked about being, you know, a maximalist in communication. I do want this to be more of a conversation than me just you know sort of laying it all out there. The space before and I've said this on my channel, I probably said this on the podcast the space before represented an even older version of my life.
Matt:Aside from the entrepreneur kind of content creator hustle vibe that was going on for a little while, this space was a storage area, mostly for film equipment that was ready to be like literally in cases closed up.
Speaker 1:It was like a surgeon's operating room.
Matt:Like it was very cold. It was cold in that sense Blue, sense lights. It was black all around, yeah the blank, the sound blankets were up.
Matt:It was very, very much um a storage area, for it was like a grip truck it was like a and I would have to grab all of the equipment c stands, lights, film, cases, all that stuff and haul it up to my truck to go to a shoot. And every time I walked in here it felt like, you know, that version of me was gone, Like I'm not that person anymore. But the space is just a constant like reminder and not like those were hard times where I'm like, oh, that was such a difficult time in my life. It's just the time that has moved on.
Matt:The pandemic really kind of helped end that part of what I was doing and I just it was a downer to come in here and see a thing of pelican cases and my all my cameras out of pelicans and everything was just, it just was utilitarian and uninspired and, um, this transition, you know, helped me realize what this space could be in a few things, unlocked that Um, and I just went for it. So so what I'm excited for is wrapping all of the chaos of achieving this end result but still having a little bit of chaos in the fact that I'm still doing the street photography, I'm still managing a couple of YouTube channels, we're still doing this podcast.
Matt:Obviously I probably have more going on creatively than someone would recommend, but I don't give a shit right now because I like doing it all and if I have to edit that down as I go over the next year or two years. So be it, but. But I feel like I can breathe a little bit clear.
Speaker 1:uh, freer now and he's not talking about editing down the podcast, by the way we got him on. We got him on a four-year contract. So, no, no, no there would be.
Matt:There would be a that's a legal action brought.
Speaker 1:That's a non-negotiable, especially because when we don't, uh, do a stupid thing like move our studio to my studio well before I, I want to go back and dive into like the 2014 like stage a little bit, because I think a lot of people that are watching probably got caught up or had people that got caught up in that energy that was. So I want to go back to that but, like, really quickly, it is such a pain in the ass to set everything up from scratch, like I know we've talked on here about friction, like friction to creative work. Yeah, I just want to take a moment to reiterate that it is such a pain in the ass to.
Matt:I mean, it probably took us an hour and we had to compromise a bunch, right Cause it's like we know these angles are not they're not super dialed in.
Speaker 1:Can't like. Ah, well, you know, you can mess, you could play with it for another.
Speaker 1:It's just we had it like, we have it soed, yeah, where it's literally. It's hey, do you want to do an episode? You know? Name the day, that's right. Name the time. Yep, we'll show up, we'll shoot the shit and write notes for like 30 minutes an hour, depending on like what the content of that week is, and then we'll just jump in, have a conversation and then matt can leave. You know, if he's got to do what he's got to do or, like you, you know we've got something going on and it's okay. Wrap it up whatever. It's so frictionless and that's the only reason why I think it's been so easy to continue to put out episodes is because there's just not a lot of friction to it.
Matt:Yeah, and for both of us it's almost like it's like the oasis in the desert. It the oasis in the desert. It's like this place that we can go, and and obviously the process of setting up doesn't have much friction.
Speaker 1:I don't love setting up the cameras because I'm like a little, I wish I could make it perfectly the same every episode which I I do, like you know, we've talked about it. Um, wherever we, if, if we end up in a location, I I want to take that into account, yeah, whether it's like maybe it's swinging down from the ceiling or something, but I want to take that into effect. Where it's just an account, where it's a fixed angle, and yeah, you don't have to.
Matt:You know obviously micro differences, but it's nothing where it's like, well, that angle's way off guys. Or oh, matt forgot the tripod again.
Speaker 1:Well, again it would just be another thing that makes this easier. Yeah, Because, and it makes the quality better. Yeah, Like you know, we know that there are fuck-ups in like every other episode, probably Like, oh, the sound's not exactly right, or the angle's a little weird, or, like you know, one of the cameras cut off early, Like it happens. Yeah, we do want to minimize that, but at the same time, like our number one thing is just, it's gotta be like if it took as long as it took to set up today on every episode, there's no chance we even get to like five episodes. No.
Matt:It's just kind of demoralizing to have that. It's that hill to climb for every episode. I mean, don't get me wrong, like I, I I love the conversations we have. I do. I just kind of like I really love what we're making, yeah, um, and I want to say that that's enough that I would, you know, deal with all that adversity to make it, but god is it hard.
Speaker 1:I think it's like because, even part of me right now, this feels a little more performative than some of the, and maybe it's just because like, oh, like, there's, yeah, whatever, but there's armrests or there's you know, all jacked up and I feel the same way it's great, I mean, and I'm glad we're doing it, but it is like I think, part of the appeal who the the one comment that was just like.
Speaker 1:This feels just like two guys having a conversation in a coffee shop. That is the guiding principle of this podcast Like we want it to feel like two guys sitting down having it, because that's what it is, that's what birthed it. Matt and I were having these conversations, you know, on a biweekly basis, for yeah, four years, five years before we even started the podcast. Yeah, and so that's what we want it to feel like. Yeah, and when you start adding in all these production layers, it loses that.
Matt:Yep, I think so definitely an important experiment and to coincide that too with just your studio space right With all the studio sessions it's. It's obviously not a podcast about studios, but there's something about the comfort of your not your studio, but a person's studio that they built and obviously I've been at your studio a lot to develop comfort. You know it's a third place in a sense for me um. It allows for you to get so comfortable that you're open, you're vulnerable, there's no friction, you just, but like you're talking about here like this right.
Matt:So the same thing for what this studio was before. Like I said, I walked in this room. It's utilitarian, it's hard to get my gear out to make a youtube video and I'm basically taking a version of my life that was over mobile filmmaking and I'm trying to be a YouTuber with a mobile filmmaking studio and it doesn't work.
Matt:Yeah, and so this is me completely changing this space so that I can access my tools much easier, and this is going to have a lot of editing that's done and fixing and this or that to live stream, which was, for the most part, dialed in. I can film back here now. Yeah, I really didn't film back here. I was. I I was reluctant because the dark and it looked like crap and all this stuff. Now I'm like hell, yeah, I can, I can shoot this direction. I can shoot this direction, all that.
Matt:So having your studio space dialed in then opens things up you've removed the friction in a way, Right. So so it's fun that we took something that we made essentially perfect for us yeah, and again the little things we could adjust still, but it doesn't really cause us any issues and we transplanted it here.
Alex:It's hooked up Like it does not feel, right? No, it's.
Speaker 1:I think it's such an important lesson to like because I think it applies, yeah, in so many areas of creating something, and I I think it is important to have a foundation yeah that is, you know, well designed, right, and that kind of takes that friction into account.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, big lesson for me, but I I want to spend a little bit of time going back to um, I don't know, this is just. I don't necessarily know where, where we enter on this, but I remember like 20, what was it like? 2013, maybe to 20 way back 2013 to 2020. Like, what? What would you say? That era is like I talking about like, like pure, like content creator. Everybody was a production company, hustle culture. I I think a lot of people watching probably understand, like, know exactly what we're talking about if they're past a certain age. I mean there's definitely probably younger viewers that are like and there's probably older viewers that maybe miss, I don't know. I feel like it pretty, it infected the culture pretty heavily. But I mean I'm talking like Casey Neistat, like Gary Vaynerchuk, like all of the like. You know, start a company, be an entrepreneur.
Matt:That's right yeah.
Speaker 1:That was like the hot. I mean, it was literally the trendy thing for a good seven year period there.
Matt:Yeah, and you're right, it's 2013, I think it ended with covid.
Speaker 1:It kind of like was the, you know, I'm not gonna say like the formal end, but it after covid. Things felt a little different after that period of a couple of years and now we're kind of finding something else.
Matt:I wonder too like, let's not spend a bunch of time on this. But I wonder too if covid and the introduction of remote work allowed people to enjoy their jobs a little bit more and and and maybe say to themselves now I don't feel as motivated to start my own thing and do it my own way, because I I kind of have the best of both worlds I have the stability of a full-time job, benefits, salary etc. But I'm working remotely, even if it's um, uh, partial, remote and partial in the office and like it took the edge off, it made me feel more comfortable doing what I'm doing. So not as many people were seeking those outlets of toxic hustle culture and entrepreneurism and all that kind of stuff, because they just kind of chilled.
Speaker 1:I think I think like one of the key I kind of want to define terms here too, like hustle culture, um, because it's almost become culturally popular to you know, push back against hustle culture or whatever that is. I don't, I don't think hustle culture was ever the issue. You've always had people that are workaholics or not workaholics or whatever, but I think it was more so. You had a lot of people that were essentially sold this idea that they can't be happy unless they do this, this and this, and a lot of times that meant picking something out of, like you know, some arbitrary thing that then they were going to be an entrepreneur at. Right.
Speaker 1:Right, and then investing all of this time and resource into making that your thing, yeah, and then like, oh, you got to grind your face off and do this and do that and you're going to be successful. And I think, like you had a lot of people that bought into that and the secret has always been the secret. There's no secret. But the thing has always been like you find something you love and then you do that thing, right, yeah, and I know that that's definitely you know it's oversimplifying things, but you find what you, what you really like, and then you, you do that thing. And some people were doing that and starting things and you know, I'm sure there's a lot of people that started things. But what do you feel like? You're, you know, did you feel like you got caught up in it or Definitely? I mean, I was listening to Vaynerchuk.
Matt:I was. I was listening to, you know, all those podcasts and the. You know the content that was coming out around it, and part of why I even started a YouTube channel was it was kind of part of the playbook. I mean, it was something that I was interested in just personally, because I've always been messing around with cameras and filming myself or talking or whatever, and so it seemed natural to me, like it made sense, um, and so it seemed natural to me, like it made sense, well, if you want to, um, you know, make yourself, uh, known on a larger stage than just in your city or region, make a YouTube channel. It doesn't have to be about what you do, it could be about whatever, and if people like you and discover you, they might go.
Matt:Well, that guy makes videos. Well, I want him to make a video for me. Um, so, definitely, I mean, I don't know that I, I went so hard as to, you know, work 18 hours a day and you know, like all that kind of stuff. But I definitely got into that stuff and I was listening to the gurus and trying to trying to experiment with how to price stuff. And I was listening to the gurus and trying to trying to experiment with how to price stuff and, um, yeah, making content around it and what content I was posting and sort of like hearing from the experts, you know, and yeah, I think again, this sort of symbolizes too, because that carried through with my YouTube channel to a certain extent, but just kind of got to a point where I'm like I don't want to follow all these rules. Yeah, oh, you gotta. Oh, if you want to make videos like that, you gotta start a second channel, or, oh, you can't do that. Or if you're gonna work with brands, you gotta do it this way, or whatever.
Matt:I'm like I'm just gonna kind of do what feels, yeah, best to me, instead of what everybody's trying to sell you their recipe yeah, like this prescription for success and I'm like, well, you know, yeah, and don't get me wrong like like nothing, crazy, and it was during a time where I think sponsorship money was much more abundant for lower, smaller youtubers and all that stuff. But at a couple surprisingly good years after I had that initial growth, uh, during the pandemic on my channel, and then when I did shift more of doing what I wanted and what I felt, uh, you know it, it fell off a little bit. There's other factors at play. It's not just sort of like I I blew things up and and and paid the price financially. But you know I go back to you talked about um, you know, find the one thing you love and do it.
Speaker 1:Uh, I brought them several things you love, yeah, yeah.
Matt:Especially in my case.
Matt:but I brought up um a while back on the podcast the power of myth by Joseph Campbell, a series that Bill Moyers did for PBS where he had these in-depth studio sessions essentially with Joseph Campbell, who's like the leading um expert or the most you know like studied, dedicated his whole life to understanding how humanity is linked through the stories we tell, whether it's mythology, religious stuff, movies, you know whatever and he always came up with this phrase follow your bliss. And man did that. That punched me in the face. We've talked, obviously in the podcast, things that you hear that just kind of unlock things or whatever. And I have taken that my whole life, um, and even the entrepreneurial stuff and listening to that, like there was an element of following my bliss, to going down those rabbit holes. Yeah.
Matt:But when you do that and you start sort of stacking some negatives or you're like that feels a little toxic to me or I don't really like that doesn't work for me.
Speaker 1:Whatever you know, your bliss evolves it was totally like, looking back on it, it totally feels like it was like. I mean it almost feels a lot more culty now looking back at it. Just, I mean people were completely bought in. Yeah, like didn't even realize it was a lens that they were putting on everything. Yeah, I mean the hustle culture like yeah, entrepreneur, in your bio nonsense was massive. There's still people that do it Like. There's still people that do it like. There's still people that are well, I think.
Matt:I think that's part of part of the democratization of all these tools of communication. Yeah, lends itself toward cult followings because we are, as people, prone to those deep emotional connections to things and things, including people. So you talk about a cult movie. It's got a cult following, cult personalities a phrase we use, of course, obviously actual religious cults or cults that are um you know getting people to do things that are, you know, mass suicide, you know whatever, but so you know it runs the gamut.
Matt:Even you could argue that there's. I don't want to like a cult following for final cut pro. Like I'm like super dedicated.
Matt:Apple sweatshirts up here on the wall, like I develop strong emotional connections to things and, um, you know I have to be careful. There's another great quote um, fight club. Uh, you know, the stuff you own ends up owning you. So we have to watch out for this stuff. The people that you prescribe or that you listen to or look up to, like you can't, you got to watch out that what they think or what they teach doesn't end up taking over your life.
Matt:And it's not really truthful to who you are or what you want to do, it's so important to.
Speaker 1:I feel like, culturally, part of the reason that we succumbed so much to these things is culture for the last 25,. This is a half-assed theory. By the way, alex's half-assed theory is a hot take. Culture for like the last 25, 30 years has been the internet, yeah, and so I think that it almost parallels the age. So you know, in 2014,.
Speaker 1:we're, you know, the you know primary internet. You could think was like a 14 year old. That's not. It's not a perfect, you know, but people were using the internet in a way that they hadn't quite figured that out yet, right? And so I think, you know, you kind of fall into these things where it's like, oh, I'm all in, I'm all in, I'm all in, and that becomes the only way you see the world. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And the one thing that I think this might just be me, you know, projecting this, but I hope the world as a whole, or at least like the West, you know, the United States, whatever, just a lot of the drivers of culture or internet culture or whatever that is like, are kind of learning to start to look inward a little bit. I know it sounds really, but I mean that in the sense of having an opinion on something, because that's how you feel about it, right, not because that's exactly right not because you're trying to be a part of a group or your virtue signaling, or you know a hundred percent you're.
Matt:You're fabricating an external representation that's more favorable. It's like sorry for the movies, but the matrix. They call it like the digital image of your own self.
Speaker 1:You're totally trying to just I mean yeah signal to other people or and you have no feelings on it one way or another. I feel like we're hopefully reaching a point where there is more of a premium put on having ideas that are your own or and you know it's it's still tough because everybody's still plugged in Dude in the process of doing this, there were numerous occasions where I would look at something and I would literally say to myself do you like this?
Matt:because of what it will communicate to other people. Yeah. Or because you actually like it. Yeah, and there were several times.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Don't not a fan.
Matt:Now you could go through our, my whole house, my whole digital existence and all that, and I guarantee you we're going to find several things, if not more, that are there to signal something rather than a true connection.
Speaker 1:I feel like that's a growth you have to go through, though. Like that's like a spiritual growth in a sense that you have to. You have to experience and then recognize that that's happening and then try to overcome that. And I think that you know getting caught up in these things like, oh, going all in on being an entrepreneur or whatever, like we were just so susceptible to that because we're not asking ourselves like do I like this? Right, it works so well, with the studio being the metaphor because it's like do I like this? Yeah, do I like this, or is this not for me? Like do I like this? Yeah, do I like it, or is this not for me? And when everybody asks themselves that about everything which I get it, you don't everybody's busy, like you don't really have time to perfectly curate or you might not be interested in perfectly curating everything. Sometimes it's more useful just to take a crowdsourced opinion and be like okay, but I do think taking individual things and being like do I, how do I feel about this?
Speaker 1:How do I really feel about this? Yeah, um, it leads to something that's a little more, um, sustainable. It's the conversation we had, literally, like you know, if you would have taken your like you had to go through and you, you dove into that like hustle culture and I mean I'm, I was there too. I'm sure like we have a lot of friends that got completely sucked into it too, but it's like there was some value, some some things I took away from it.
Matt:I still carry in my, my little basket yeah, so it's.
Speaker 1:You know it wasn't complete, yeah, yeah and you know, I wonder, I wonder though, like, if, like, it's an interesting and probably useless thought experiment, but yeah, you know, if matt in 2024 encountered that wave like. What is your reaction to it? I'm sure there's going to be other waves like that, culturally that come about that we're gonna stuff right now.
Matt:We're probably, probably are yeah that's part of something that we're not going to have clarity on rearview mirror. Uh, and for another five years.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't even say we could be.
Matt:I'm probably confident that we're not going to have clarity on rear view mirror.
Speaker 1:Uh, and for another five years I wouldn't even say we could be. I'm probably confident that we are in some way or another.
Matt:So and and and. Who knows how we'll realize it. For me, obviously, it could be the content creation, it could be the street photography stuff. For you, it could be. You know your interest in ai and how much you're doing with that. You could look back on that and be like man. What was I thinking?
Speaker 1:I'm not saying no, AI is great 100% but, you just never know right, yeah, yeah.
Matt:Back when I was like listening to Gary Vaynerchuk and all that stuff like you know, I'm like-.
Speaker 1:I mean, but like even I'm not thinking I'm gonna listen to stuff the rest of my life but I'm thinking like this is good for me yeah, I mean, I've totally noticed, though, like I, I do approach things more with that, like, how do I feel about this nowadays than I used to? Yeah, I think it's a really important question to ask yourself. It's like how do I feel about this? Do I like this? Do I feel like this is useful? Because even with ai, like I, I'm fired up up on language models and things like that. But we've had the discussion several times. It's going to be GPS for some people and they're going to forget how to drive anywhere. It's going to be spellcheck and they're going to forget how to spell anything. So I've made efforts to go more analog with a lot of stuff in terms of like okay, you need to preserve stuff.
Speaker 1:in terms of like okay, you need to preserve. So you know you wait down the other end of the scale where you're almost going overboard on like. Okay, I need to be writing more Like.
Speaker 1:I need to be, you know, going to physical books like as much as possible, and I think that stuff's important because that's going to help preserve that. A lot of people are just going to lose the ability to think critically about anything because they're going to let AI do it. Lot of people are just going to lose the ability to think critically about anything because they're going to let ai do it, and I've seen it already happen firsthand with with some people where they don't have an ability to approach anything with a critical thought because they're relying on a language model to do it which is just a predictive model of like, yeah, characters, essentially so well, and and we talked about this another episode too just something that I I've succumbed to is, uh, we talked about how, at night, like I don't want to work when I watch something, I just want to like put on something mindless, right?
Matt:so, youtube, some guy flipping through records, is this like zombification of me at night, like, okay, I don't want to have high level thinking, but I also don't want to just like sit there and stare at the wall yeah so like how can I just have some stimuli? Yeah and it's like like, isn't that kind of a depressing thing? Like so, with what? You're talking about.
Matt:You have to deploy introspection and self-awareness and go. Is this good? That this is happening Because even if it feels good, that doesn't mean that it's good. This goes back to pleasure versus joy. You know work versus just like stimuli for stimuli's sake. You know the things that you've done to understand yourself. As it comes to social media, youtube analytics, all the things that can trigger a focus or an obsession or whatever I might be putting words in your mouth but that kind of stuff where?
Matt:the dopamine that comes puts you in a trance and you can't deploy self-awareness because of what's happening Same thing with me. I have to sit there, like I just said, when I go out and get stuff. Is this to signal or is this because I like it? Yeah, I've asked myself. Are you buying this because it's going to give you a dopamine hit? Yeah are you actually going to use this get roi on it? Are you just rationalizing an irrational thought?
Speaker 1:yeah, um, because you want to rush I think it's like the signaling thing is huge. Like if you're doing something to signal to anybody else anything, you're probably going to look back fondly. If you just decide not to do that, yeah Right then. Or like just decide right. Like it's like when you're writing and you're like, oh, what word would fit here? And then if you have to look it up and spend like more than five minutes looking up like what expresses whatever you're feeling, perfectly, you're either going to edit that out or you're going to put it out there and then feel like a moron when you reread that.
Matt:I really want to use say it this way, but people aren't going to think I'm a smart intellectual, academic, writer if I don't use this word.
Speaker 1:And as soon as you've had that thought, you just got to be like, okay, so I'm not going to do that. You got to smack yourself in the face and it goes with life.
Speaker 1:It goes with life. It's just like. I think that's how people should make more decisions in life, because so many people are so caught up in what other people think that if you've given into that a little bit, you've already just crushed any chance you have at doing anything original or, you know, meaningful, especially if you're an artist, like I think it's almost the responsibility of an artist quote, unquote, whatever the fuck that word means. But especially in 2024, if you are going to create or if you're an academic intellectual, whatever, it's almost your job to you know, yes, be aware of what's going on, don't just be like in some other world. But you need to insulate yourself so well from influences.
Speaker 1:Like I said, I had this thought in the men's locker room of the ymca last night.
Speaker 1:No, but I had this thought, like paying for a book that somebody wrote and you know they wrote that book, but they spend the majority of their time on Twitter. So it's like you're paying somebody for what other people's thoughts Like. Shouldn't the kind of differentiator be that they've insulated themselves so much from? I mean, there are some people that can bring together these like tapestries of idea and thought, and that's that's its own utility, right, um, but shouldn't the kind of measure be that you've insulated yourself to something like and you focus so much on these ideas that you're interested in that you've come up with something? Or maybe not come up with something is the wrong, but you've, you know, given yourself the time and the space and the environment to you know, put together something that's slightly novel or has a chance of being novel, rather than just this tapestry of Twitter that's dressed up a little bit, or this tapestry of, or, you know, everything that you've seen the formula, the playbook, yeah, the stuff that we've talked about, obviously, you know.
Matt:Diary entry yeah analogy is to me the purest. Oh, it's the best it's.
Speaker 1:I heard it the other day again and I was like so did I, yeah, and, and, and.
Matt:That's what this is. This room is a diary entry and the stuff I want to make. I want to stop, because I do succumb to this. I do sit there and go. Well, I really want the video to be like this, or I want to make a video about this. Well, if I want people to think this of me, that I'm good for sponsorships, or I'm this or that or whatever it's like, oh, you are in a bad place.
Matt:Or even things like again with me and we talked about this in the podcast as well when I went to Poland, we talked about popularity. Right, there is a part of me who is the not unpopular but not popular kid in high school that struggled with that. And not like every day I'm like oh, I'm not popular, but like it's in your mind, even if it's not at a conscious level and it still comes up where I'll sit there and kind of feeling like, well, with all my YouTuber friends, I feel unpopular right now.
Matt:Look, we're never going to eradicate these thoughts from our mind. You're never going to eradicate the part of you that might succumb to social media, or the things that give you dopamine, or the things that you don't think are healthy. Right, it's never going to go away. You can deploy self-awareness, you can have introspection. You can identify when those behaviors or those choices or those thoughts are coming up and try to make now sometimes it's going to leak through.
Matt:You're going to do something impossible whatever um, but, uh, but, but the, the creator, the artist, the diary thing, this is it right here yeah like let's show everybody I don't care, don't like it, like it whatever. There is not a single thing in here that I can think of that I got because I was hoping Alex would think it was cool and would make Alex think something more of me, because he's sad, well, and you know what the irony of that is.
Speaker 1:It's like, it's like. I think what I respect so much about it is that that is the character, like you just said. Fuck, fuck it. This is just what I like. That's what I respect about this yeah like, yeah, just stop stop doing things for other people. Figure out what you want, and that takes time. That might take decades yeah um, and you're probably never going to figure it out.
Matt:It's in constant flux and um and you're gonna have step backward and I know, it sounds like I'm on a soapbox and I'm again these these are like half thought through idea.
Speaker 1:Like I said, I came up with that in the men's locker room last night. I was just like I was thinking about somebody's book and I was just I was like why, what is the value proposition of that? Just like secondhand thinking yep, just squished together and repackaged and sold like there is no value proposition there, at least not any kind of value proposition that holds any kind of weight over a long period of time.
Speaker 1:Yep, but no, I mean just yeah, but we're almost at the at the end of the day. Like I don't want to take it too dark, but, um, I don't think of this as a dark thought, I just like I'm always kind of thinking about the idea that you know, you're just gonna, you're gonna everybody's gonna die, everybody's nobody's gonna be. I guess it's kind of like a stoic idea in a way where it's, like you know you're going to die, nobody's going to remember you.
Speaker 1:You know everything's been done before you're going to die. Nobody's going to remember you. It's just like so. If you spend all your time, you know, trying to think about your legacy or what, how, what you're doing contributes to somebody else's vision of you. Yeah, or you're not going to do anything. Start right now spending all of your time just and I'm not saying do things that only serve you.
Matt:Right.
Speaker 1:It doesn't have to be that cut and dry selfish.
Matt:It's not that it serves you. Yeah, just telling the truth.
Speaker 1:Just tell the truth, yeah, just figure out what that is, and yeah, just do it.
Speaker 1:It's I can't stress that enough. Like you know, consider, like it's healthy to think about that you're not going to be here at a certain point, yeah, and that everything that you've done is probably going to go like. And we still do stuff all the time. We buy things, and we purchase things with that in mind of like man, man, I want something that'll outlive me. We do that. That's why I think that's part of what drives us to create work. It's part of what drives us to take photographs, because you're trying to like, grab onto some instance that's passing and that's going to move, move by and um, but all that stuff is going to, you know by and um, but all that stuff is gonna, you know, go away eventually.
Matt:So is it like is there something in us, is it ego, like this need for almost immortality, like something? And I think like to live physically live forever I just mean, like I think so and it's just.
Speaker 1:and is that ego? Like there's just no point, like there is. I totally get why people do that, but if you really spend time thinking about it, I think most people they don't give a shit. Truly, they might say oh man, I want to leave a legacy, or I want something that matters, or I want so-and-so to be proud of me. It's like those are more those are probably more secondhand thoughts than they are how people truly feel about things.
Speaker 1:I think, yeah, it's just something that just pay attention to yourself in a way that make, make your studio like, design your studio.
Matt:I don't feel like I'm just preaching and I'm I'm circling myself and I'm not really adding anything useful but but I think this comes from some of the stuff we've been reading too right, like we've, we've. This is going to sound like a left turn here, but but bear with me. You know, we've, we've. This is going to sound like a left turn here, but but bear with me.
Matt:You know we've been reading about ontology and a lot of the, a lot of that focuses around, um, uh, how there's a sense that, especially with music like nothing really new or interesting has come out since, like the early 2000s, even maybe back to the 90s, and I think what you were talking about too, like the playbook and the formula and I don't know if this is the case, but whether it's technology, the internet, our interconnectedness, the global village, whatever, like we've made enough stuff to be able to analyze it and, like break it down to its rudimentary elements, the building, building blocks, the pillars of that thing.
Speaker 1:The atomic structures.
Matt:Yeah, it's like okay, now we can synthesize art because we know like, biomechanically, humans react to these octaves or these notes on whatever, this melody structure, whatever, and so like we can fabricate.
Speaker 1:We did a little bit today with the image generation. I would hang that on my wall.
Matt:I would hang that on my wall? I would hang that on my wall, absolutely yeah. But you fill up people's homes or galleries or whatever with that stuff and it's it starts to feel the same, or it's like all the buildings in town, like the sameness of everything.
Matt:This is something that we've been talking about a lot over this last year and to me it it it just feels like it's. It's I don't want to say it's, it's a lie in the malicious sense, but it's just not. People writing diary entries it, people writing diary entries it. It's people making something for maybe an ego-based result or a commerce-based result, which is often related to ego, um, to achieve greatness or immortality or whatever. They're fabricating something. They're synthesizing something instead of fabricating something. They're synthesizing something instead of transcending or conjuring something from, you know, the, the muse, or the, the source, or whatever you want to call it, and maybe some of the stuff that is truth or diary or whatever is it's out there. It's harder to find because there's so much that people are making, including me just video, video, video. That's not. You know, I'm, I'm. I'm saying this almost to myself. You need to start.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's who I'm talking to. I'm talking to myself when I'm you know, I think that's why I get frustrated about it is because I do fall into that sometimes, and then I also get frustrated when I see other people fall into it. It's like you know, a lot of times when you're angry at something, it's some kind of like it's some kind of projection of something inside of you.
Matt:That's exactly right, yeah, and I think that is you know.
Speaker 1:you see the same apartment buildings, the same this, the same that and it's like and this is like you talk about entrepreneurship or whatever, like that is the. I think that's the best reason to. You know, go out and do your own thing is because you see, like man, all of this is just the same and why can't? Why isn't somebody doing it like this? Well, instead of being like why isn't somebody doing it like this, go out and try to do it like that.
Speaker 1:And you know, I'm talking to myself in a sense here, where it's like you know, and you know I'm talking to myself in a sense here, where it's like you know, put your money where your mouth is. You know, stop putting. You know, why can't this be done this way? Well, nobody's going to do it until somebody shows that it's possible, yeah. And then, as soon as that happens, everybody's going to try to do it. Yeah. And a lot of people are like Roger Bannister breaking four minutes in the mile, right, it was physically impossible. And then he did it and then, like eight other people, did it miraculously in a 60-day period yeah, so I feel like I got a little you know wound up, but I like it.
Speaker 1:I, I gotta. That's another thing I want to do, is not, I stopped caring so much about I mean, mean? It's important to care, it's important to be emotional, but I think it's important to not let that lead in, you know, rhetoric or like in conversation. It's important to kind of.
Matt:Yeah, you don't want to get. I don't know if irrational is the right word or, um, losing control isn't the right word either, but just sort of too far, too far gone. Yeah, because it's easy to get fired up about this stuff and and and worked up about it, and I mean that's my experience often in my in my head. You know um trying to figure these things out and going through the process, but one thing that's nice is having studio sessions to work through it work through with you, buddy. What did you?
Speaker 1:call it Um what was it? Dump sessions, burnout, dump, there you go, yeah.
Matt:Burnout dump.
Speaker 1:I'm burned out from my feelings.
Matt:I'm burned out from my work. I'm burned out from what's expected of me. Yeah, and I got to dump it all out there to clear the log jam.
Alex:Clear it out. Well, that's what we do Good stuff, buddy. Thanks for it. This was a extremely awkward episode.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm glad that we did it, because really drove home some some points and some lessons, and you know Freaking amazing to see this space too. Yeah, that's very cool.
Speaker 2:And it had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer. You
