Studio Sessions
Discussions about art and the creative process. New episodes every other week.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
Studio Sessions
35. The Art of Showing Up: Learn to Do the Work
In this discussion, we explore how we often settle for “good enough” in our creative work and daily lives. We break down how easy it is to choose the immediate comfort of indulgence over the tougher path of sacrifice, and how that dynamic affects our long-term growth. We then reflect on the role of ego, examining why we sometimes feel we deserve results without putting in the necessary effort. By confronting these patterns, we aim to move closer to authentic fulfillment, rather than quick dopamine fixes.
We also consider the importance of connecting with others and discovering third places—communities outside our home and work—where we can find new inspiration and support. In shifting our mindset, we open ourselves to better habits, focusing on meaningful work rather than superficial achievements. By doing so, we anticipate entering the coming year with a more refined approach, seeking quality and depth in both our professional and personal lives. -Ai
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
And it had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summaries.
Speaker 2:Everybody's asking what was your realization?
Speaker 1:So, for those of you that have been listening and watching you know old Matt's been in a little bit of an upheaval here for the last uh, year or so and really just summarize this podcast. Doing this podcast and you know I've talked about, you know Alex introducing me more to street photography and art photography um, really opening things up for me to explore photography myself, to consume photography, books and documentaries and reading books about hauntology and all this stuff Kind of just cracked things open for me to see other ways of living my creative slash, commerce, life beyond, just like hustle and goals and productivity and digitizing everything and notion things and this productivity thing and like I've got 15 minutes left before I have to go pick up my kids, like what what's like what what?
Speaker 1:thing can I do that's gonna give me the most roi financially, all this kind of stuff and like having this crisis of like I just sit, I just stare at the magic rectangle all day like I'm not out playing, I'm not out doing anything, I'm not making any art, I'm just like constantly thinking about views and clicks and conversion and money and revenue and all this stuff and like everything kind of cracked open and I went, you know, pendulum swung the opposite direction, went hard on the photo channel, really got in, got away from the desk, wasn't outputting videos as much, certainly wasn't making as much money Not that it was ever anything exorbitant, but it was certainly more consistent and I was less stressed out about it. But I was less fulfilled, definitely more fulfilled with all this experimentation that I've done overhauling my studio, getting into vintage clothing, vinyl records, analog tech, retro tech, all this stuff that just lit a fire of creativity and excitement and certainly has infused itself with the work that I'm doing on both my YouTube channels and then just personal work that nobody's seen. But throughout that process and we've talked about it on the show a lot of introspection, which I've always done my whole life, but really trying to understand. I'm 45 years old. Not like the vision, like the specific thing, like I'm going to be a big screenwriter, I'm going to have this big thing happen or I'm going to be a superstar of this or whatever. Just sort of like why am I 45? And like everything is still. I feel like I'm. I just haven't leveled up to a different, more interesting set of problems.
Speaker 1:I was like, still have all these student loans, still have, um, you know, struggling to scrape together, uh, you know, a decent annual sort of salary from all the stuff that I'm doing, not saving for retirement in a way that I want All this stuff right, where culture kind of puts these responsible adult milestones in your face and if you're not achieving them, like you know, you're behind the curve. Stones in your face. And if you're not achieving them, like you know you're, you're behind the curve. And you remember that kind of vomit letter I had written about, like what is? What are these characteristics or qualities of people like a bruce springsteen or these artists that have achieved this level of success or greatness right?
Speaker 2:we'll have to put the episode link.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I don't recall off the top of my head what episode that was, but so I just like ruminating about that and thinking like, like, is it like a genetic thing? Is it half nature, half nurture? Like, how, like, like, like I deploy a lot of troubleshooting when I do this introspection what's the root cause of you not being where you want to be? I just really thought long and hard about the times in my life where I felt like I was really doing well. Confidence was high, results were good Not just commerce results, but just fulfillment and not productivity.
Speaker 1:But just like you're just sort of in the slipstream, like this is just flowing, it's just everything's kind of working, and I don't expect it to be that way 24-7, 365, all that but just more sort of consistently building.
Speaker 1:You know a little setback here, a little step backwards, you know whatever, but just sort of consistently building. You know a little setback here, a little step backwards, you know whatever, but just sort of you know building instead of doing what I've done, which is like burn everything down and start over. Right, I just came to this realization like the time, like going back, like the times that you've had the most success, with more of your professional, creative pursuits rather than personal life stuff, you made decisions at a different end of the spectrum. The first step in me realizing this was going. I have made decisions in my life from a place of what I call indulgence, like just indulging and giving into temptation. Just indulgent could be like literally indulgent, like decadent food or you know um expensive food or sugary food that's not ultimately going to help you achieve certain personal health goals right, feel good the next day.
Speaker 1:Um, or indulgent in spending when you shouldn't have, or indulging in laying on the couch when you could have been working on editing photos or making another video or doing something that would help you achieve these results that you're hoping to achieve. So a lot of decisions based on indulgence, like I could work out today yeah, fuck it. Um, I could go out and do photography today and I'm going, going to do this thing that's more fun instead. So a lot of indulging in the thing that's easier or more fun or whatever More interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, more interesting, but isn't necessarily connected to what I'm trying to achieve Versus decisions that are made from a place of sacrifice. You know I'm not. You know I'm going to work out today Like I'm going to sacrifice, doing what I want or my time or whatever, for this thing that I don't want to do, but it's going to help get me where I want to be. And I started looking at people around me that have good results in their life, my wife in particular.
Speaker 1:And I'm like you know, one thing I never really paid attention to with my wife is she does such a phenomenal job of making decisions from a place of sacrifice going without something that she wants but the money doesn't add up for her. Or, you know, going out to dinner dinner, but maybe getting a lesser meal and I'm thinking, hey, we're going to eat, just get what you want, like, just let loose. And she's just really in the habit of making these decisions from a place of sacrifice. And and you know she's not she'd be the first to tell you her life's not perfect. She certainly has her struggles, all that stuff, but she's super fit, like her exercise regime.
Speaker 1:This, this woman, does not let anything get in her way to the point where we were at my mom's house for Thanksgiving and she found a space in my mom's house to work out in the morning. I'm like I would have taken the break off. Again, indulgence, right, yeah, right, yeah, um. And so I started thinking about that letter, the note I wrote, and I'm like, I bet you people like bruce springsteen you're, you know, you're people that have achieved great things I bet you that they make a lot of their decisions from a place of sacrifice rather than indulgence yeah and so like that got me going even further into the root cause of this.
Speaker 1:So like what's really underneath that layer as well as indulgence and and the frustration like why was that frustration there to write that note? And I'm sitting there going, you know, my brother and I, you know, and I'm sorry for bouncing around this is like coming out. You know, I drive over the viaduct in Council Bluffs and they have this big billboard for the lottery and whenever those lottery numbers are like over 200 million, I'm like I got to stop and get a ticket, got to get in here, I got to win that lottery. My brother did a lot of stuff that was like those get rich quick kind of things.
Speaker 1:I'm like is there something in us and you know this is not me trashing my brother you know he's done incredible things with his artwork where he's sacrificing a lot to kind of die for the vision he has for his work and I'm certainly blown away by his dedication to that. But there were always these instances where and this is where we talked about in previous podcasts like hijacking, art forms, screenwriting and this to like unlock the code to get to this place of sort of prosperity or decadence or windfall, amount of money winning the lottery, in a sense, to try to find, like this thing, that was the least amount of work with the highest amount of reward. And I think back on the times where Money for nothing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, where the best things happened to me creatively, professionally, personally in every single one it was setting aside indulgence in favor of sacrifice. It was doing that hard work when you didn't want to and I can give examples of that in a moment, and then times where things weren't going well. It's like, yeah, you like you cared more about laying on a couch and watching TV all day than you did about memorizing that monologue or crafting a. You know doing the work on a couch and watching TV all day than you did about memorizing that monologue or crafting a. You know doing the work on the character work for the play that you were in. You wanted to do the bare minimum, and then you know. But then you also wanted, like everyone, to come see you after at the dressing room and be like oh my God, you were amazing.
Speaker 1:All this stuff Like, and when they didn't, your ego made you go. Oh, I deserve these accolades, I deserve this, this, um, all of this attention or whatever. And so I think that there is something in me related to ego where I think I deserve greatness without doing any of the work and that's the crux of what I've grappled with my whole life, and I think that letter was like this kind of like confluence of those things and just like my ego being like why isn't this happening?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so funny.
Speaker 1:You're, you're thinking hard about this and you want this badly. But it's like it dawned on me You're just being indulgent, you're not putting in the work. Yeah, you're not making decisions from a place of sacrifice. You're not a place of sacrifice, you're not doing even remotely enough to achieve any kind of serious result, any kind of greatness or anything. So the universe is like who the fuck do you think you are Like you haven't done, you're thinking you can't wait to get home and be done with this shoot? Uh, so you can. So you could just turn it all off and not think or be stressed or have anxiety or second guessing yourself or whatever. So, uh, so, there, there, there has just a wrap up and sorry.
Speaker 2:I cut you off. No, no, no, I was and sorry, I cut you off, no, no no, this is good.
Speaker 1:No, no, no. I was yeah, but those two things, understanding decisions that come from a place of indulgence and sacrifice, and I've had kind of like a way of thinking of that, like I read something or a podcast I don't know what it was and it was well, ask yourself every day, am I doing what I could do or am I doing what I should do? And that, to me, wasn't like strong enough. Wording Like that really clicked with me. I'm like, yeah, like I often choose what I could do over what I should do, but it wasn't powerful enough. And even though I don't think indulgence is the perfect word, it's the perfect word for me, like oh, you're indulging.
Speaker 1:You're indulging in this. You perfect word for me like, oh, you're indulging. You're indulging in this. You're indulging in laying on the couch. You're indulging in pushing off editing that thing till tomorrow. You're indulging in going thrift store hunting because it's fun and gets a dopamine hit over doing the work. Yeah, um and uh. So that really helped me have a deeper clarity, a deeper understanding and a deeper, just more emotion around understanding that. And then, lastly, the ego thing, like just kind of realizing definitively. You know, I think it's always been there, like, yeah, you know your ego is a real obstacle for you. You know your ego is, is a real obstacle for you. But it was just this like caricature of what we think of ego that I, I deserve this shit, I deserve this um, just because I want it.
Speaker 2:But uh, but again, I'm not sacrificing anything to try to achieve it I think there's a lot of people that probably feel that way, like that.
Speaker 1:They deserve something yeah when they're not yet they're not willing to, or maybe they think they are putting in and I think I did, I think like, I think me I'm working so hard like yeah me wanting it, yeah, like, like tricked me into, yeah, thinking I, well, because, because I want it and I am doing stuff, I'm, I'm, you know, so so, like the, the differentiation between the hard work and like the really hard work to me was like I'm working hard, like I'm doing like a lot of stuff Like it's it's hard to come up with this video, or it's hard to script this thing or whatever.
Speaker 1:But a lot of stuff like this, it's hard to come up with this video, or it's hard to script this thing or whatever. But, um, but I, I will choose to like, I'll be like, well, I want to wait until I'm inspired to do the, to do hard work like I want to be. Basically, I would say to my I I would look back and go you've done some hard things, but you, you depended on inspiration to fuel you because it made it easy. Yeah, the avalanche of of that, that inspiration, and that you know, it's certainly good to to, to act on those moments of inspiration to do stuff that's hard work but is sort of made to feel easy because of it. But then in that process too, it'd be like oh, it'd be really cool if I added a couple shots of like of this, or if I did this thing, yeah, like that would really be cool you know what?
Speaker 1:that's just. It's like another three hours just skip it.
Speaker 2:Well, you have to, like I. It's so funny I was thinking about this. I was literally in there. Yeah, this morning thinking about something similar is like there's just a lot going on this week that we had to get closed up and yeah you know we were about to, we were about to give a pitch and I was just not worried about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Cause I was just like I'd put like I mean literally probably like 30 hours of work into it, 40 hours of work of into like just getting this thing ready this like pitch ready, like over the last couple of days, like you know, and I'm standing there and I'm I'm thinking about how I wasn't stressed because I was like I don't quite have it, but I had this reassuring kind of feeling of like yeah, but inspiration comes because of the perspiration, or because of the effort that went into it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I did the hard stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So the inspiration will be there, like it. Yeah, like I did the hard stuff, yeah, so the inspiration will be there, like hopefully.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But I, I it was, it wasn't like a hope, it's there. I just I had this like confident, like maybe it was like a bit of just like you know, you just have this confidence of like it's going to be there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then it was yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's, and so you leave that and you're just like gotta put in the work. And then I was. I was literally in the gym and I was thinking about I don't know what I was. Today too. I was thinking about the press field thing, where it's just like you gotta gotta be in the seat.
Speaker 2:That's right gotta be in the war of art yeah, and it's like you gotta be sitting there, that's right, and it'll be in the sea. The war of art yeah, and it's like you got to be sitting there, that's right, and it'll come, but you might have to sit there through like four or five sessions and it's just really funny that you brought that up. It's been on my mind a lot this week. Yeah, another instance actually. This is weird, yeah. So I mean, I think we're on the right topic here.
Speaker 1:And the times that I've you know, I've, I've, yeah the times that I felt most proud about what I accomplished from the effort I put in, you know, certainly pales in comparison.
Speaker 2:Every time I sneeze, it's like just start the timer until I'm done.
Speaker 1:Every time you put in the yeah, yeah. So every time I put in you know the effort, you know when. When I was screenwriting, you know, my thing was kind of like Stephen King. Right, stephen King's thing is to write six pages a day and in three months you've got a novel. Um, my thing was, you know, write five pages a day and however many days, you know, 110 pages ish, you would have a rough draft of a screenplay. Um, but even within that though and this is this is to me, for me a little bit of the difference between you know, that's great, like that's a big first step to take, like you can just sit down and get five pages a day, five to seven days a week, you know, outstanding, right. But when you're working on a scene and you bump up against something and you're like, oh man, it'd be really cool if I took it in this direction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that's gonna take a while to rewrite that or whatever. Like it's cool and I think it could work. Like it's cool and I think it could work, but this is fine, that's the that. That's something that I have, just like form, an allergy to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like fine, it's not good enough, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1:And I and I'm like, yeah, I just so. Then I think back on all the stuff I've done, from my YouTube channel to client videos to whatever and there certainly were some videos where I really felt like, if an obstacle came up, like, oh, it'd be really cool to do this. Yeah, that's way too much work, fuck it, when I pushed through that and did it and was really happy with the work after the fact. But for the most part, yeah, it's sort of like oh, don't let what is the expression?
Speaker 1:Don't let perfect be the enemy of good and done is better than perfect and all this stuff Like.
Speaker 2:so I'm not a perfectionist at all, I don't think it's that binary though. Like better beat, like you can be, a like perfectionist is such a different thing than just like being somebody who's obsessed with quality. Yes, doing something the right way, even if it takes a little bit longer. It's a Steve Jobs thing where it's like his. You know he talks about his stepdad. It's like you got to paint the back of the fence. Why Nobody's going to see the back of the fence.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You're going to see the back of the fence.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Or like inside of the next computer or whatever. Right it's like oh you gotta, it's gotta look good. Nobody's going to see it other than the repair people.
Speaker 1:You gonna know, yeah, yeah, but but even in addition that I imagine steve jobs was someone that was like if he, if he saw a new idea for a product and it meant scrapping all this work to start over.
Speaker 1:He's like it's just a no-brainer to do it, yeah, whereas someone he's like, oh man, I did all this. I can't no way, yeah, page one rewrite, or starting a, an edit of a video all over again, refilming it like I mean, how many times have I filmed something and then afterwards was like, oh man, I kind of overlooked this or that would have been better, almost be a like can almost assist in that like.
Speaker 2:if you look at something and you see that there is a clear hole in it and it's like the drive to go back and put in that work to change it is more motivated by like this I fucked this up Like I gotta. I gotta fix this.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's motivated not by ego, though I feel it's motivated by making the thing you're making the best it can be. It's almost like like. So ego is a tough word, but it's like the soul of what you're making.
Speaker 2:I think it's like it is like a form of ego, in a way, like it's like not because ego is only negative connotation.
Speaker 1:Right, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:And. But it is like an awareness of self where you're looking at it and you're like, ah, this is not this is not good. This is not here Like something like I can't go on looking at this with the whole I see right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like it needs to get fixed, yeah, and it's like that's going to take four hours. It's like, yeah, but this is embarrassing, like.
Speaker 1:I can't do this.
Speaker 2:It's not quite ego in the traditional sense of like, but it's still it's like ego. Yeah, it's definitely in the same building.
Speaker 1:Well, and if you look at my early videos, I mean I remember my buddy, cody, telling me he's like have you tried, like you know, outlining or scripting your videos a little bit more?
Speaker 1:Because me is like have you tried, like you know, outlining or scripting your videos a little bit more? Because I would just like hit record and just like ramble and ramble about whatever I was talking about it was, it was lazy. I was just like I need to make a video. I want to make a video, but I want to put in as little effort as possible to craft something. And I was okay with being like oh, that kind of gets a point across, or I'll edit that out, or I just sit there and talk the whole time like, but then you know, you put this thing out there, and not that I had like some idea that just me rambling about a camera was gonna get 10 million views. But like part of you, like you're my again, my ego thinks well, I thought this up and I put it together and I did more than what most people do is I actually shot it and edited it, put it out there. Isn't that alone worthy of some attention?
Speaker 1:And it's just like, and so I think 2024 has been a lot of that yeah that realization. Even when I was writing that um stream of consciousness, I was saying, and I think when we talked in that episode, I was saying like do you think, you know, bruce springsteen, when there's a, you know they do their eighth take of whatever. And he's like, oh, you know what? It's good enough, let's just move on.
Speaker 2:Yeah no but, I think, but, I think the big takeaway we had from that episode was like you don't necessarily have, it's good enough, let's just move on. No, but I do that shit. I think the big takeaway we had from that episode was like you don't necessarily have to be like I'm going to be great, that's right. Like that was like kind of the and yeah, we'll put that Well and again, a lot of them, a lot of them.
Speaker 1:It's not I'm going make something great. It was in service to the thing, like the creation of the thing. It was in service to the legacy of the best musicians ever.
Speaker 2:I mean, you're also right, though, about kind of, yeah, not having an expectation. I think a lot of people just expect that, like they, they are entitled to something. I was reading something too this week about um, uh, it was, uh, it was, yeah, it was the efficiency thing, and they're talking about um, like an email chain between el Musk and Twitter, like the CEO of.
Speaker 2:Twitter at the time before he he bought it and it was like they were going back and forth and it was like yada, yada, yada. And then he said like what have you done this week? Like what have you gotten done this week? And you know, I mean that's that's somebody who has you know, I mean that's that's somebody who has you know, he's, he's built like four or five of the biggest companies in the world. Like he definitely understands sacrificing a thing for a thing, and I don't know why that stood out. But like, what have you gotten done this week? Like we all kind of just think on this, like oh, yeah, like.
Speaker 2:I'll get it done, I'm supposed to be here, like I can just do the minimum. I'll just kind of think on this like, oh, yeah, like I'll get it done. Yeah, I'm supposed to be here, like I can just do the minimum. I'll just kind of, yeah, whatever, and you really have to change your like. It's like everything that's worth doing is going to take something out of you absolutely worth doing is going to take something out of you Absolutely and culturally.
Speaker 2:Like I can, I'll sit here and I will like rail against you know the hustle culture and like I don't think that is necessarily the but you have. Like, what I'm not saying is that you should just expect anything Like. I think everybody should almost just take this Like. I'm not saying is that you should just expect anything Like.
Speaker 2:I think everybody should almost just take this Like I am entitled to nothing. I, what I was laughing at and what I was, kind of interrupted you and I didn't mean to, but I was just going to say like it's funny that we had the value conversation last time, yeah, and then this cause. I think like that's the biggest thing. It's like you know you're talking about your, your monologue, and like, oh, like nobody came backstage. It's like we did you give anybody any value? Like right, did they take?
Speaker 1:anything out of that? Yeah, exactly no, because you put so little effort into crafting something, yeah, special and I and I and I like thought into yeah, like finding something that somebody could.
Speaker 2:That's right, it was going to change the way somebody saw something, or you know, you know.
Speaker 1:And I remember having the like a sort of test that I would give myself after taking a test. I'd come back and get like, oh, I got a C plus on this test. And I would say to myself, well, what would you grade your effort into preparing for this test?
Speaker 1:And I'm like, yeah, about a C plus? Now, every once in a while there'll be outliers, you know you. You just phone it in as far as prepping for a test or whatever and you get, you know, an A or whatever. It just kind of works out, um. But but even back in high school I would do that.
Speaker 1:When I went to my first year of college, I basically flunked out. I had a breakup with a girlfriend. I was moved away from home for the first time. My entire high school career was literally showing up, listening, taking notes, studying next to nothing and getting like a B average in high school. Good enough for me. I have no goals in my life. I'm not trying to get into a big school. I don't even know what I'm going to do with my life, kind of like computers. Maybe I'll do something with that.
Speaker 1:And then you know, one of the first things I did that was not related to my relationships with girls and that's kind of a little preview of something I'm going to talk about as far as effort goes in a moment. But I wanted to get in the high school play and I wanted like I wanted to get cast as a lead. I wanted to be someone where I had never done a play, never performed acting like on a stage or whatever, like we made our home movies and I was always a performer at the dinner table and all that. But I had never done anything like that, like formal, formal. So I asked my dad I'm like dad, what shakespeare monologue should I do? They're doing a midsummer night's dream and I want, you know, I want to get a part.
Speaker 1:So he, you know, gave me this monologue from henry v, which I still love to this day, uh, the saint crispin's day. And, dude, I worked my ass off to memorize that monologue, like to memorize it and to like, not just mimic Kenneth Branagh's performance in Henry V, the movie that my dad showed me in conjunction with the monologue he thought I should do. I mean, I was constantly performing it. I had it, you know, backwards and forwards. I still have almost the majority of it memorized to this day because of that, whereas everything.
Speaker 1:I did in college, memorized all these lines, all that. I barely remember any of them.
Speaker 2:It made an impression on you, though.
Speaker 1:Well, I've just put so much work in that it's, it's hardwired into my brain. Um and sorry, I'm not going to perform it for everybody right now, but maybe in a future episode.
Speaker 1:Get 10 likes and what's he that wishes. So yeah, get into it. Um so, so then what happened? I got one of the leads in the play and my the drama teacher goes why have you never auditioned for a play before? And not like, oh you've deprived us of your magic, but sort of like, I think, unexpected. You know, my dad was in the English department, the theater director was as well. And sort of like, who's this kid out of nowhere, like belting out this.
Speaker 2:Shakespeare monologue. That's pretty good.
Speaker 1:And so I think about those different things with the stakes. Was I getting into the University of Illinois into the acting program? I'm on the tour and they tell me only 15 people get accepted. I'm like, wait, what I'm thinking? Like 500 people get accepted to the theater program? Like no, in the acting school only like 15 get in. And I'm like, oh crap. But then throughout acting school there were times where I barely prepared for an audition and would just like forget the lines in the audition but then be like oh, I didn't get a part in the play.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, why do you think you?
Speaker 1:didn't. They can see that you're phoning it in, yeah, and then randomly I would kill it yeah and then phone it in and then kill it like you, just like it was just all over the place.
Speaker 2:At least you have the self-awareness to be like I was phoning it in. I think a lot of people phone it in and they don't even realize that it's they're phoning it in and like. I think the first step is to almost have the ability to be like hey, I'm, I'm in the wrong here. Yeah, like, yeah, like this didn't happen because. Because it's really easy just to be like it's this circumstance's fault, or it's this thing's fault, or it's this fault, or it's like oh man, it's just not my day, I'm just unlucky. Yeah, it's really hard to look yourself in the mirror and be like I fucked that up, didn't I?
Speaker 1:oh, yeah, I mean yeah, every time I'm, I'm, I'm as far away from the vision I have for my life sorry, I keep moving around I hope that's not like wrecking the audio here.
Speaker 1:Every time that happens, though, I'm just like, yeah, you're phoning it in. So the thing I was setting up earlier, though, is, you know, that's one of the things I'm most proud of and feel like I put a lot of work in and never never phoned it in was my relationships. Now, obviously, relationships ended. I've made mistakes, I was broken up with, I broke up with somebody else. You know all of that stuff. The one thing I've worked my ass off since I was I I, you know young, 13, 14 years old was the relationships I have with women.
Speaker 1:I I don't know why, but I am constantly challenging myself to improve, to be a better spouse to my wife and I'm not perfect by any means have fights, I'm an asshole. Sometimes, you know, get shitty, get irritated, get irritable, whatever, but it's never. It's never well. What is she doing that's causing this? Right, it's always been. It's never well. What is she doing that's causing this?
Speaker 1:It's always been self-reflection, introspection, self-awareness. How can you improve? How can you get better? What's causing you to be edgy or irritable, or struggling with her way of keeping her space and my way of keeping her space? All of that stuff Because I, you know, at the end of the day, you know, one of the things I'll be most proud of is the success of my marriage with my wife and learning from all the failures I had with the relationships that failed, where I did sort of phone it in in the sense of my ego, like everything, you know, I can do this, I can do that, like what is? You know, it's cool for me to do this because I want to, and it doesn't affect how I feel about you, so how could you think that what I'm doing is offensive or wrong or whatever to the? You know the agreement we have in this relationship and sorry for the lack of specifics. I don't want to get into specifics on some of that stuff You'll get in trouble.
Speaker 1:But so it's weird to look back and go. You killed yourself to improve and be in and achieve. I know I didn't sit there constantly going. I want to be great in these relationships, but I mean, I have always wanted to have a healthy but realistic, great relationship with the person that I was going to spend my life with. But then on the flip side again, like you know what, I'll just take my old summer job back. I can do so much more, but I just want to like phone it in, Like I'll just make my $8 an hour and work nights and weekends at the grocery store. I'm capable of so much more, but it's just too much work.
Speaker 1:I could, you know, do other things with this video, but it's Wednesday. I want to get this thing out by Friday. It's good enough, but it's Wednesday. I want to get this thing out by Friday, it's good enough. Yeah, Um, just like constantly just letting those indulgences take place in the professional, creative um job stuff. Yeah, Um, uh, but but really keep trying to trying to crush it as, uh, a significant other in a relationship.
Speaker 2:It's just like why, Well, what's the like? So you had the realization yeah, what's the like. Are you like? Is there like a course correction?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just challenging myself. Are you making this decision from a place of indulgence or sacrifice? So it's just every time. Are you making this decision from a place of indulgence or sacrifice? And so it's. It's just every time an opportunity presents itself and you are going to, or you have made a decision, ask yourself what side of the spectrum did it come from? Yeah, um, when I look back on relationship stuff, almost all of the decisions are made from a place of sacrifice, where there was improvement, where there was serious gains. Now there's certainly times where I indulge, like, oh, I'm just going to be crabby today, or I'm just going to be annoyed about a mess on the table, or whatever it is right, like just kind of giving in to those feelings instead of going.
Speaker 1:Some of those are chemical states though. Yeah, absolutely, but um, so, so I think understanding that spectrum for me is certainly helpful. And then also just going, is your ego kicking in, making you think that you deserve this success with submitting photos to a, to a, a contest, or putting out your next youtube video, and and you just, you know, like I just deserve all of this windfall of things that society and culture deem as real markers of success or even greatness? Yeah, like, oh my gosh, look at all this money. Oh my gosh, look at all these views. Oh my gosh, look at all these subscribers. Oh my gosh, look at all this money. Oh my gosh, look at all these views. Oh my gosh, look at all these subscribers. Oh my gosh, look at this amazing thing you made, you know.
Speaker 1:And so I think, the clarity and understanding that I have in having that both an epiphany, but then a framework, a language, some kind of structure to test these things against, and I don't know if, like all this experimentation with this year and you know what I talked about earlier you introducing me to film, photography and just kind of moving away from so much productivity, hustle, culture, commerce-based thinking, entrepreneurial thinking, and all that into a place of more coming, you know, coming from you know, more creative artistic place. Um, and going crazy with collecting things and, um, overhauling the studio and changing kind of the little bit of the vibe of my channel and all that stuff. Um, yeah, I, you know it is related, but, um, but, but I think moving into 2025 with this clarity and understanding about myself, I think it's, it's. I think my hope is that, now that I have this little test I can give myself, when I'm making things like you're being a baby right now and you're just phoning it in or you're just choosing the easier thing, you're not doing the hard work, you're not pushing through it.
Speaker 1:And, and even though my video about this sweatshirt isn't a masterpiece by any means, every time I was I bumped, I had a thought like, oh, it'd be cool if you got a shot of this. I made myself do it, whereas before I would have been like eh not, not worth it yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or it's worth it, but I just I don't feel like doing it. I just want to get to where I'm not spun up in. This state of this is work I have to do, but it's also fun, creative stuff. I just want to get to where I'm kind of done, where I'm not thinking a lot or I'm not putting in effort.
Speaker 2:I just want to indulge. Get me to the dope.
Speaker 1:I just want to, yeah, indulge, get me to the dope. I just want to, yeah, or just get me to. Just get me to nothing like, just get me on the couch zoned out watching something which it's ironic and shut it all down.
Speaker 2:That's the time. Those are the times when you feel most just like there's nothing going on, yeah, which it's like. For me, that's not a good feeling yeah but it's funny how we crave that feeling yeah, when we don't have it right. So sometimes, when I'm like in the middle of something, I'm just like you're acting like you don't like this I know yeah, I know like you're acting like this isn't the the good shit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I told audrey that I was like. I was like, yeah, you know, sometimes I literally on a walk. This week we were talking, I was like you know, I like to fantasize that I would love to just be like you know, have enough money, never have to do anything again, and just like be a writer in the woods.
Speaker 2:Even if it never Go off and write every day and like, yeah, just you know, maybe you know, do whatever, smoke my pipe, watch old movies, yep. But I'm like there's no, like I enjoy that stuff. I really like I love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But it's kind of like you know darkness and light, Like they need each other to. Yeah, it's like I would miss the. I love the shit yep yeah, like there's something about like the shit and the drama and like right, just like the sense of purpose, the just that the action is the juice no yeah yeah, there's something about it. It's just like when you're in it you just sometimes it's hard, it's easy to forget, hard to remember that now you enjoy this. Yep, you kind of like this. It's not bad.
Speaker 1:Yep, and I think you know, um, you know, uh, uh, this clarity is gonna certainly impact what I make on my channel. Um, and you know, I I sit there and I sometimes go and again, it's not necessarily about the metrics, but you know, I'm just talking about subscribers right now just as an indicator for connecting with an audience, connecting with people, that what you're doing is resonating, it's landing, it's having an impact. And I don't mean this profound emotional stuff. I mean I talk about Final Cut Pro and theories about why Apple did this or didn't do that or whatever. Right, this isn't crafting an amazing rock album or a painting that moves people in profound ways, moves people in profound ways.
Speaker 1:But I sit there and go, man, your channel just exploded during the pandemic and it's really, in comparison, kind of flatlined, literally. My ego goes you deserve a bigger trajectory again, which is indicative of the work that you're doing, connecting with an audience. And I do the thing that I did with the test. You know you've gained, let's say, 8,000 subscribers in the last year or so and you and you wish it was more again for connection, not for vanity. But what effort have you really put into the, to the work that you're?
Speaker 2:making. What's the value that you're making? Yeah, what's the value?
Speaker 1:that you're really yeah, you're just kind of going through the motions, like sure, you're animated on camera and you have some interesting things to point out about the app or you're telling an interesting story about this or whatever. The videos that did do well and gained me subscribers and connection and all that stuff. I look back and I'm like you put the most effort into that, but you still didn't put in enough. You wrote the first draft, you did some basic revisions and then you just sent it. What if you spend a little bit more time with it? And that doesn't mean get so precious about it that it takes weeks and weeks and weeks to write one script for a video.
Speaker 1:But how about a little bit more scrutiny? How would a little bit more? Could this be better? How about, instead of rushing it to publish, take the night and the day, like, take some time away, do something else, get fresh eyes, watch it again. With the video that you were really kind to be complimentary about, about the sweatshirt, you know, I stepped away from it for a day or two and then came back. I'm like, oh, I can cut this part, like.
Speaker 1:Oh, that will link up better here, Like I.
Speaker 1:I had more clarity because yeah, the emotional state wasn't I got to get this done, I got to get this done. It was, it was in servitude to making it the best it could be, and while I did not do that in the best way possible, I have a lot of experience I need to get with having more of that approach and that's honing the craft right. So I'm really excited with 2025 to have that level of scrutiny. What will make this better? It goes back to Rubin man. I read his book and I never really connected that to my process.
Speaker 1:The thing I took away from the book and I should probably read it again but the thing I took away was sort of like, okay, my head's in the right place and I have a better understanding of, sort of like, where all this comes from.
Speaker 1:But when it comes to, like, the making of the thing, while I understood what he would talk about in servitude to the idea, best idea wins, let's throw out all this or change our location or do this experiment with this, like I got that on a cerebral level, but I didn't really understand it in a way where it relates to how I approach my work. Yeah, and so I'm I'm excited for 2025 to, to try to, to, to collaborate with what the thing, what the best version of the thing I want to make is not a quest for perfection, but just with what. The best version of the thing I want to make is Not a quest for perfection, but just I've exhausted all the ideas I can come up with to make this better, and when I take a couple days away and re-watch this or re-look at this photo or whatever it is, I'm really happy with what I made versus focused on. I'm really happy that I got another video done in a week.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm really happy that I published six videos in a month. Well, what?
Speaker 2:does it matter if the videos are?
Speaker 1:like mediocre. They're mid.
Speaker 2:Yeah so god, you just I mean, you just summed up something that's so important. It's like stop like so many people are using the wrong metrics. Yeah, they're looking like, but I did this. Mm-hmm, you did nothing. Like there, nothing got got. Nothing was done.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, like that thing that was done was completely you know it was. It was just for show. Yeah, yeah, that's. I think 2025 is going to be. I think it's going to be a killer year. I'm excited about it. I am too. I feel like I feel like this year is kind of ending on a good, on a good note, and then I think, yeah, I mean yeah, I'm excited to see what comes from from your side of things, as long as we get back on a weekly programming schedule, yeah, it's for uh, for reference. It has been like we've both just been all over the place since like, yeah, probably end of october, end of october, yeah because that's when I jumped onto tso, it's when travel stuff happened um I had the bumpy july because I had three trips home um to the chicago area.
Speaker 2:But I feel like even that month though we yeah, we were here like we're on top of it.
Speaker 1:so, yeah, it's been. It's been a little crazy. Now, admittedly, I'm populating my life with some priorities that maybe shouldn't be the top priority. Yeah, and I've talked about this before, I kind of want to get this stuff out of my system. I want to chase down these dopamine tendencies and start building some momentum, getting back into the laboratory and crafting some stuff that I'm really excited about. But I don't want to lose the aspect of chasing some of those things, whether it's again records and physical media or vintage clothing or whatever.
Speaker 2:You can't lose that. I feel like you. This is like my observation. Sorry to cut you there, but no, it's good. That's your source, like you talk about the source like that is you, that's where you're pulling a lot of stuff from, Like, you're pulling a lot of good from that and so, yeah, if you cut that off, cause you're like, oh man, that's just indulgent, indulgent, indulgent, it's like what are you? Are you going?
Speaker 1:to swing the other way, like that's what's grounding you, well, it's fuel, it is, it is a lot of inspiration. You know, I just want to be careful that I'm not um, letting like a little bit too much obsession or compulsion come into the sense where it's like, well, you're not really making, like why is you're making indulgent decisions? You're spending too much money. Or, you know, like you're, you're, you're giving up too much of the pie of time and effort to some of this stuff which might be a little bit frivolous, it might be a little bit, it might be more than you need to be doing to have a nice like pool of inspiration and vibrancy in your life. Now I will say, and I had another realization, don't have to go spend a ton of time on this, but the amount of third places I've developed from chasing these things down, and while some of the relationships at these third places aren't, you know Define third place too.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, so third place for everybody.
Speaker 1:Your first place is your home. Your second place is typically where you work. A lot of times now, home, and this part of the part of a problem for some of us is that first and second place are blended together. Now, um, and so this creates, uh, especially the internet and our ability to stare at the magic rectangle and disconnect from reality some magic rectangle yeah, and not go out into the real world.
Speaker 1:Um, we lose our third places. So third places are like the coffee shop, the record store and all that, where you have relationships with people that maybe you don't see in your first or second places, but they are relationships that you have there and they're strong connections. It may not be like carrying over into where you go see a movie together, you go out to dinner, you hang out, like you and I do, as friends, but the relationship is defined by that place.
Speaker 2:It's like the work buddy, but it's a different version of that. It doesn't really Like the acquaintance who you totally are.
Speaker 1:You look forward at work.
Speaker 1:The relationship is really contained by the place where it exists and it doesn't really break that container.
Speaker 1:So for 2024, the thing that's been very fulfilling to me is getting to know all these people, all these people at estate sales, people that I've met at the thrift stores that I go to, whether they're the employees or other thrifters, especially the vintage people, the employees or other thrifters, especially the vintage people, the record shop, and getting to know the people that work at the record shops or the people that go to the record shops, All these connections People workshop down in the old market and Stefan and Trey, but then also and Josh at Modern Mayhem, but then also like learning about them and connecting them with stuff that is inspiring to them, Whether it's like, oh, you know Trey and I hooked him up with this camera, or Josh, you know a Polaroid camera that he, you know, wanted to take to Italy with him.
Speaker 1:You know, even with you and you're not a third place friend, but like getting inspired to bring you that plate, or you know other things that you just like you're out in the world and you're like, oh you know, alex would really love this or Josh would really love this, or whatever.
Speaker 1:The Scorsese book yeah, the Scorsese book.
Speaker 1:So much good stuff, yeah, and like it's so exciting to meet these people and have like a you know my curiosity, of course, which fuels me significantly and just asking people well, what's your background, what's your story, why do you do this, why do you do that, why are you interested in this? I just love the connections that I've made at those places and, while I maybe don't need to spend as much time as I've been spending at them, I don't want to lose that I want the people that I know at the estate sales.
Speaker 1:I, I want that to be a part of my life. Um, and maybe I don't go every friday, saturday, sunday, and you know this and that. Yeah, but just be like you know, I'm gonna roll in on sunday it's nice.
Speaker 2:It's nice to have like brackets to your life yeah like it's nice to have things that you can count on. Yeah, like uh, it's not necessarily routine, but maybe it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, just like walking into a room and people recognize you and they're happy to see you. It's just nice, it's that was.
Speaker 2:That was one of my big things for 24, and we don't have to, we're already almost out of time, so we should probably wrap it here, but um, just yeah, man, get outside, talk to people yeah put down the magic rectangle. Yeah like be.
Speaker 2:Most people are just kind and just like want to have a conversation yeah and we build all of these like online personas and then we project them onto everybody we see in the real world. Yeah, it's like most of the time that's just horseshit, like you can totally just have a conversation with somebody or just like say hi, yeah, well, you know what's going on with you like and you know we've I think it's.
Speaker 2:It's easy to forget how we're all just human and, like you know, we're in the world together. It's easy to take all of these grand narratives that you know are constantly advertisements and whatever and kind of project that the noise, this is the world yeah. It's like that's not the world. The world is different.
Speaker 1:Right, I was um wrap up but I was watching uh, we watch every year planes, trains and automobiles. You know how. You know how weiles, you know how we find new meaning, we find new layers. You know Rick Rubin's book. You know Scorsese film. You know a photograph that we've seen a million times and all of a sudden it hits us differently. You know we reconsume these things. I was watching planes, trains and automobiles and like all of these experiences between indulgence and sacrifice, all of that stuff kind of the third place is the connections I've had, recognizing sometimes that I chat people up too much, like Del Griffith, and they're kind of like okay, I'm ready to not be in this right now and I sometimes miss those cues and keep going.
Speaker 1:It was really cool to watch that movie and have another layer of connection with it through these experiences in 2024. And I and I just love that about, about art is you know some movie I've seen 20 times, 30 times, yeah, and you're able to pull something new out of it that you never saw before.
Speaker 2:Chris, I feel like a lot of people do that, Like a lot of people watch vacation. A lot of people watch Vacation Home Alone. We watch. It's a Wonderful Life. Every year you get different meaning out of it Before we get off there's something New Mexico goodbye.
Speaker 2:That idea of it's something I really kind of focused in on this year. That idea of when you're experiencing something for the first time, like having an appreciation for it through the lens of oh my God, I get to experience this, that's right several more times over the course, like I'm gonna get to like, hopefully I get to experience this in like 15 years from now, hopefully I get to experience this, like that is something I've really zoned in on this year is like when I'm like when something is just washing over me, I'm just like, oh my gosh, you get to come back and do this again. Like you know it'll never be the first time, but just that kind of I don't know. I don't know if you've ever felt or like quantified that I just I don't know if something about that this year has just been like crazy.
Speaker 2:I don't know if something about that this year has just been like crazy. If I, if I reading something or watching something or listening to something for the first time or even for like the third time, and I'm just like, oh my gosh, you just get to and I love that.
Speaker 1:Come back to this. I love that phrasing. You get to I sit there, I'm like you get to make videos for the internet in your basement and earn a living for that. Yeah, you get to have a wife that you, you know, you love, and two kids that are like amazing, that, that, that, that, just that one word, um, flips your perspective. Yeah, and I think what you're saying too. You know with art, you know like. You get to go to the jocelyn and look at all this amazing artwork whenever you want, for free. You get to walk the streets and take photographs with amazing cameras that you know all that stuff.
Speaker 2:We get to sit down. Enough conversation, yeah, not having care in the world not every good yep drink and yeah talk and yep, yeah, I mean it's so easy to just kind of get caught up in the bullshit.
Speaker 1:well, that's when I hit a spot in a video like, yeah, that's good enough, like no, dude you get to make videos for the internet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so make it fucking awesome. Yeah, yeah, not, you could be lit. You could literally be, like you know, pulling garbage cans or you know you could be. You know building bridges in the middle of, you know, the Arctic. Right Sounds kind of cool it could be. I mean just, there's so much work you could be doing, that's just so. There's a lot more difficult ways to make a living.
Speaker 1:That's right, you know nice.
Speaker 2:And you? What is it down there Like 68,?
Speaker 1:70 degrees. And you, what is it down there? Like 68, yeah, 70 degrees, negative 70 degrees, but that that's it. Like you get to do this thing and and, and the shifting away from my previous thing, which was let's get this over with, yeah, yeah yeah it's like what are?
Speaker 2:you rushing for like. What do you like? Why? What do you? What do you have? That's so much more important than that. That's the man that is so like, it's like ah, I just got to finish this. It's like, what are you rushing this for? Like what is so much more important than just doing this? The right way.
Speaker 1:I think there's something in the done state Like I finished this thing, like this, this, this sense of accomplishment which is so funny, that done doesn't mean like we've built this association with done yeah, and it's like ah, thank God it's done.
Speaker 2:It's like yeah, but it's a piece of shit, Right.
Speaker 1:But I think I'm fixated too on times like I'm screaming into the microphone too. Like the rewards of being done, like I want to experience the rewards of having finished this thing and I think I finished them early. Maybe, again, this is indulgence because, oh, you get to go, you know you get to go to the coffee shop and like and screw off because you've got your video published, or you get to go see a movie, like like all these little rewards that I come up with like I get to get into the reward state.
Speaker 1:I get to watch TV or I get, you know, I get to watch TV or I get to shut it all down and just do something that isn't moving the needle toward anything other than a state of luxury, dopamine reward, whatever. And I think I've been fixated on just getting to that place. And it's not like there's like some grand celebration, oh man, hit publish, like, oh my gosh, let's go throw a party upstairs and eat a bunch of junk and go watch movies and do all this stuff. But there's, I think there is something about like, like well, and then it turns on the.
Speaker 1:It turns on the dopamine hose that YouTube gives you especially when you get to watch the views and all this. Yeah, it turns on that.
Speaker 2:That opens that up and you're like, oh man, this is crazy.
Speaker 1:Right yeah, so.
Speaker 1:I'm excited for 2025, to try to have the clarity and understanding of all that and just work on it.
Speaker 1:It doesn't mean eradicate it from day one, like you're just never gonna do any of that stuff again, but just to be aware of it and challenge yourself to make those decisions from sacrifice to surrender to the thing that you're making, to make it the best it can be, rather than all these shortcuts and giving in to temptation and indulgences and all that stuff that when I'm in a mode of where the stakes aren't high, where I'm really deadlocked on trying to accomplish something and kind of sacrificing to get to where I want to be which, again, I've had moments where I've really my my uh theater professor, during a showcase we did in Chicago at the end of acting school, came up to me after I like, really just like, let it all out in the showcase. I don't think it was any good, but it was a lot different than what he was seeing in rehearsal Cause I was holding back and just phoning it in and he just looks at me and he goes. You really know how to turn it on when you want to.
Speaker 2:And I think that's what it is Just fucking turn it on man Like more. Yeah.
Speaker 1:More often.
Speaker 2:It's. It can't be, though, Like I want more often. It can't be, though, like I want to. No, in a sense, it's got to be like well, it has to. We're doing it. We're doing it now, like it might not be inspired, yeah, but it's right, it's gonna be like we're doing it.
Speaker 1:it's press field. Sit your butt down, do it, but then also really hold yourself accountable to. Don't just write five pages, maybe if you're doing a vomit draft, but as you go through, like every time you hit a thing, we're like something needs to make this better. I know what'll make this better. Yeah, fucking, I don't want to do it. Yeah, I'm just going to go whatever yeah, like. And then the ego got to get the the this, this idea that I like deserve the windfall of greatness. Screw you. Yeah, some peyote or something.
Speaker 2:Exactly Ayahuasca Ego death.
Speaker 1:Oh man, there's still that ego is holding on. It's still alive and kicking.
Speaker 2:We probably need to go on that retreat together. Honestly, We'll pencil that in for 2025.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:Well, hey, cheers to another.
Speaker 1:It had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer.
