41. Standing Still, Moving Forward: The Paradox of Creative Consistency

In this episode, we explore the tension between authenticity and evolution in creative projects. Beginning with a discussion about potentially refreshing our visual identity, we dive deeper into examining what makes our conversations meaningful and why we're drawn to document them. We question the purpose of structure in creative work and the value of maintaining a pure intention versus following conventional paths toward growth or commercial success.

We reflect on the nature of long-term documentary projects and what happens when creative endeavors remain untouched by commercial pressures. Drawing parallels to musicians and filmmakers who maintained their vision over decades, we consider how various forces—including desire for novelty, insecurity, and commercial interests—can potentially corrupt the purity of creative intentions. The conversation ultimately celebrates the organic, unplanned connections that emerge when creators stay true to their original purpose rather than conforming to external expectations. -Ai

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.

Links To Everything:

Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT

Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT

Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT

Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT

Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG

Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Intentions
• 10:15 The Dilemma of Changing Our Look
• 20:12 The Importance of Content Over Presentation
• 30:45 Reflection on Two Years of Podcasting
• 40:20 The Role of Purity in Creativity
• 50:00 The Balance Between Authenticity and Appeal
• 59:10 Discussing the Influence of External Expectations
• 1:10:45 Capturing Life Across Time
• 1:30:00 Corrupting forces and Resisting the Pull of Commercial Thinking

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

And it'd been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer.

Speaker 2: 0:13

Ask Me Live.

Speaker 3: 0:15

So I was, you know, we've looked. We kind of picked out something that we could use as a new show show cover vibe and I'm like, do we do it or do we just keep the lo-fi just like we gave a fuck? But we kind of just did it quickly yeah vibe that we went with originally, especially the header. Been doing it for two years, we haven't changed it. Yeah, it's worked great up to this point. Why mess with it?

Speaker 3: 0:51

yeah like we can make it look more polished or whatever. Why, right, like, what is that gonna add? And so this is a real question, because you know, there's obvious things where it's like, well, you could do like this, you could do, or you could do merch, or maybe it would be more visual in the podcast, you know, app and whatever. Yeah, why. Yeah. I can't, and the problem that I'm facing is I can't make a good argument that fits the spirit of why we do these things in the first place.

Speaker 2: 1:21

Yeah, and so because of that, I I'm like maybe we just leave it alone. Well, I'm curious what you know that I felt like um, you kind of took the lead on a refresh and started presenting some ideas, uh, about a new look or, you know, new imagery or whatever. What do you have any idea? What brought it about? Was it just like I mean originally we?

Speaker 3: 1:47

had an idea that each season we would do a different vibe.

Speaker 3: 1:51

Yeah, we were like oh we can do like the Western thing and that kind of just traces the progress of the show and, you know, puts different time periods on things. And I still don't hate that, I'm still open to that idea. But then also, why change it? It's not like this is hurting. It could help a little. Oh, maybe it helps us get X more viewers or something.

Speaker 3: 2:26

But it's like if if you're not watching or listening and yet part of it is just because you haven't discovered it yet, but who cares? Like people can discover it whenever they discover it. We're just going to continue to like, do our thing. So great, if you discover it two years from now, then you'll have all of that content from the last right, you know the last two years and then the next two years, and then you can jump on for the. It's like it'll. People will discover it when, whenever they discover it, whenever the time's right for them, and then you know if it's kind of about the conversations we're having, it's kind of about the conversations we're having, not about what it looks like. Yeah, so I don't know. That's my argument against it, I guess. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 3:14

And I, um, while I liked the process of making new imagery and kind of exploring it and all that, I do feel like there was something kind of I don't want to say nagging, but just something under the surface that that was going. Do we really need to change?

Speaker 3: 3:28

anything Like what?

Speaker 2: 3:30

yeah, what, what for I mean it. It looked cool and I was excited to implement the new look, but part of me goes. You know what's the? Are we just changing it to? Change it yeah.

Speaker 2: 3:44

And I'm, i'm'm, you know, I'm curious about what forces are at play that would bring that about. Is it you know? And not saying that this is what happened, but is it the playbook? Is it, you know, a need for novelty? Is it? Um, uh, you know the the feeling like the show's evolving and you want to align the imagery of the show and the quote unquote brand with that evolution? Um, you know, I don't know.

Speaker 3: 4:11

I think, you know, I think the we're better suited, with just the focus being on the content, not the presentation. Right, because it wasn't ever supposed to really be about the presentation. And you know, you look at a bottle of whiskey and sometimes you know some of these really renowned brands have this excellent presentation. There's nothing wrong with an excellent presentation. Yeah, it's just watching Johnny Walker.

Speaker 2: 4:50

Yeah, the little, uh, a little video about, um, uh, maker's mark dipping the the the neck of the uh bottle and wax. You know, every bottle's hand dipped in hot red wax, which is super cool. Yeah, Um, but elaborate.

Speaker 3: 5:14

Yeah, I mean, I don't know, maybe that was an original, maybe that's like I'm using these cameras and it was just something that stuck Right.

Speaker 2: 5:22

But and that's the thing you change that stuff. Right, but and that's the thing you change that stuff. Yeah, you know, if we change cameras or if we yeah.

Speaker 3: 5:29

Potentially change the look of it. Well that's, I was getting caught up in this kind of false idea of progress. Right.

Speaker 3: 5:40

Yeah, which I feel like we've maybe railed against a little bit, not in like a let I destroy the machines kind of way, but right, just in the sense of okay, is this, you know, is this actually improving the product? Yeah, we talked, you know, you talked on the phone yesterday about the schools that were like, oh, we're gonna invest 50 million dollars in the school district and every school will have five computers or four computers in each classroom. It's like, well, could you have just maybe paid the teachers?

Speaker 3: 6:15

right you know, more money and trained them, or you know, required more skills to teach out of that $50 million, and would the result have been did the kids get much smarter because you gave them access to computers? Probably not. Could you have just invested that in the teachers and probably had a greater impact? Probably. And so when we're having the conversation of I don't want to be a Johnny Walker walker where it's oh well, the whiskey is fine, but the reputation and look at how beautiful the brand is, and you go to the factory and it's, or the distillery and it's. You know this amazing tour and all of this and that, and it's like but is the? Is the whiskey good? Is the? Maybe? I't know. Maybe we come back to it in like a year or two to see, but yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:10

And I did like what, what you came up with and how we you know, my input and all that kind of led us to that. That look, and I'm I'm glad it's there. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:21

And that we gave it, which is kind of room to breathe. There was no feeling, which is what kind of happens to me think it feel it, make it, send it. You know like you're so amped up about this thing that you made that it's just like you implement it without, uh, a little bit of objectivity or, um, a moment to breathe and go you know a clear head Like what's you know what is at play in wanting to do this and is it the best thing to do?

Speaker 2: 7:53

And I, when we started recording this episode, you know we're sitting, honestly, sitting here going what are we going to talk about? And part of me is it's interesting that, again, we've had a range of things where sometimes an episode with pre what we call pre-show, which is our conversation before we roll cameras we just kind of arrive at something really interesting to talk about or, um, you know, we might come in with something that we've been reading or watching or whatever it is, and we start a conversation on that, which kind of gets us to a common thread or a shared idea, and then we can kind of launch into the podcast from there. I thought it was interesting and that's why I kind of pushed us to start rolling, to just be like we don't know what we're going to talk about and and and. The other thing that's interesting to me is, especially in the shadow of finishing Neil Postman's book, um, amusing ourselves to death, uh, that this, this thing inside of me as a, you know, with my own YouTube channel and, um, you know the all the talk about providing value and whatnot this feeling oftentimes of not wanting to, but but some thought and I don't think I'd ever act on it or or encourage us to consider acting on it is we need to make this a show Like.

Speaker 2: 9:26

This needs to be a show, you know, and that doesn't mean, like in tonight's opening segment, blah, blah, blah, or you know, you know, you know, and I think there there certainly are good shows that that have that. You know, I I enjoy real time with Bill Maher, the the daily show when John, or the weekly show when John Stewart hosts it. You know stuff like that that has structure. And you know something that you know like an opening monologue, and then we're going to go into this stuff the funding, then a wrap up or an interview or whatever you know, we're not.

Speaker 2: 9:58

You know I, you know our sort of show is the conversation we have whether it's I feel this way about this, let's talk about it, or I don't know how I feel about that let's work through it.

Speaker 3: 10:08

Well, it's like if we turn this into a show, I think we would do five episodes and then we would never do it again. Yeah, like to be honest because we've talked about it before, but this, this serves us in a way. Yeah, there's something very selfish in here.

Speaker 2: 10:24

It's not self-indulgent like we were talking about.

Speaker 3: 10:26

Yeah, but it's. It's not like this. The self-indulgence that comes from us doing this isn't, you know, some following, or like it's not an external thing but we get both of us get value from it. It's like, oh, challenging to pick up new ideas or look through different perspectives and shift through world views and hold ourselves accountable on the work we're creating or the lack thereof. Or, you know, work through psychological tensions, or there's a benefit that we get if, if we turn it into a show, you might be able to incorporate bits and pieces of that, but you would lose that, and then also just the people that actually do pay attention to this. Um, I mean, yeah, there's plenty of shows out there. Sure, this isn't one of them.

Speaker 2: 11:20

Yeah, this is about nothing. Yeah, no, I just a Seinfeld reference isn't one of them.

Speaker 3: 11:27

yeah, this is about nothing. Yeah, no, I just a seinfeld reference. Uh, because I can't not contextualize this in terms of anybody. If anybody needs the explanation of where the show about nothing came from, yeah, I'm upset. Well, yeah, right no there might be a few I think, but remember too, and and and hold your thought.

Speaker 2: 11:41

the big thing was we would sit down, grab coffee, hang out here, whatever it was, and these conversations would just happen, yeah, and I think we would come out of them inspired. We'd come out of them satisfied. We you know the, the volleying back and forth of ideas, exploring things, not knowing what, how we feel about it, you shaping my opinion, or, uh, how we feel about it, you shaping my opinion or perspective on it, and vice versa. And I think again, when we had those conversations, it wasn't like we were on the phone ahead of time or sitting down on our own going what should we talk about this In our next conversation? That's not filmed, that's not recorded. What should I talk about with Alex?

Speaker 2: 12:22

There were probably some preparation, like, oh, I just read this thing, alex might be interested in that. Or I watched this video, I might want to share that with Alex, you know. So there's sort of like an exchange of ideas or a sharing of stuff, but there's no, there's no formulation of this thing. And then roll cameras, let's get into it. And I think the self-indulgence, to a certain extent, is other than what bubbles up and what we're reading, what we're watching what we're experiencing. We're not, like, tasked with sort of this homework every week of yeah, pre-producing the show which, if there was, was I doubt either one of us would do it Right.

Speaker 3: 13:06

Exactly it wouldn't happen.

Speaker 2: 13:08

So is what we're doing here better because of it or, ultimately, is what we end up doing, and I'm asking more?

Speaker 3: 13:23

I think it's completely non-linear. It's not better where it just is it just is right, it's just this is like. This is what it is the whole intention of us. You know, recording the thing and putting it out was we always left the conversation feeling pretty charged up, yeah, enthusiastic having had gotten value out of it, happy.

Speaker 2: 13:42

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 13:43

And not not, maybe not in like a one-to-one value sense, but just in, and we're leaving these conversations with a little brighter. Yeah, better yeah, just whatever. That euphoric feeling is when things are going the right way, right, and I, you know, personally I was like man, I want access to this. I bet there's people out there you know at least a couple of people that would get the same euphoric feeling. Yeah, so then you create a digital proxy. Yep, just a podcast. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 14:20

And you put it out there and you know there's probably just as many people that would completely hate this or not get anything out of this or leave it not.

Speaker 2: 14:31

You know what is this? This isn't anything.

Speaker 2: 14:34

But for the people that do, I'm sure that it means a lot to and yeah, you go and turn this into a show or something and start putting these artificial boundaries on it, it's going to lose all of its lose all of its value to anybody If we did make this a little bit more of a show, even if it was something as simple, as we're coming in with a hot take or a thesis one that comes at us Hot take and I don't mean necessarily you and I each have a hot take but a subject comes up. You know we're given a prompt. Whatever it is like. What would, what would a show version of this even look like?

Speaker 2: 15:16

every that that we would be even vaguely interested in see.

Speaker 3: 15:21

But I but I think, like there's, there's a this, I don't. I don't know how to define a show, but this is we've developed our own tendencies and formatting without even realizing it. Right, you can go back and watch the last 39, 40 episodes and I'm sure there's a progression, right, it's like if you, if you take a thousand photographs and you're interacting with you know, oh, I took a hundred, I'm interacting, took another hundred, I'm interacting with those and I'm learning from those, or I'm taking things out of that. It's going to slowly evolve. You're going to have things that you go back to. You're going to have. That's right, I'm sure that's there.

Speaker 2: 16:06

You're going to have things that you go back to.

Speaker 3: 16:07

You're going to have. That's right. I'm sure that's there. You're going to have patterns develop and that what is a show, but just patterns.

Speaker 2: 16:12

It's just sort of pre-determined patterns.

Speaker 3: 16:14

Almost we're just kind of figuring out ours from, yeah, from scratch, and I'm sure it'll continue to evolve. And, you know, episode one will probably look a lot different from episode 50. Episode 50, I would wager it'll probably be different from 100. But what I heard this quote like um, you know you, just you. If you're real, then your art grows with you. Like, if you're completely transparent and you're just real and you're not trying to project any kind of false sense of, uh, you know, the idealistic version of yourself or whatever that is, then your art will grow with you. Yeah, hmm, because it's only you're only making what you can make in that moment. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 17:06

You're not trying to, so I I don't. I kind of think this is a good. It's a good summation of this. This is just us, what we've got right now at the, at the current moment, and we're sticking to that pretty much a hundred percent for some reason or another, and it grows with us. I mean you're a different person. 40 episodes ago I'm a different person. Of course we are. It was two years ago yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:34

Yeah, and I'm I'm just you know, I'm just you know really fascinated with the where doing this comes from, like why you know just that that idea of these are really good conversations that we have. Like I selfishly want to document them, but I also think it'd be cool to share them. And there's not any deeper strategic playbook show business, what others have done. There's no deeper thought about it other than let's hang out and talk about what's going on and see where it goes. And I don't know I'd be curious if there were other shows like that podcasts, whatever how I would react. I'm sure there are, yeah, and I'd be curious if anybody has seen other things like that.

Speaker 3: 18:45

I'm sure they're probably pretty small like ours. Yeah, I think you just kind of organically develop a.

Speaker 2: 18:52

Right, and I mean like, if you think about it, you know some of my favorite podcasts.

Speaker 2: 18:56

you know, like, obviously, you know, if you watch sorry, not just just in general like a Joe Rogan podcast, a Smartless podcast, a Rick Rubin podcast, they have a general idea based on the guest sort of things that they're curious about, especially because they're getting to know each other, sometimes for the first time, right For the first time, and maybe with someone like a Joe Rogan interviewing a prominent figure, they're sort of like, well, we've got to hit on these things because it's part of the cultural zeitgeist right now, or my audience is going to be frustrated if we don't mention this thing.

Speaker 2: 19:33

That is, you know, happening right now. Which is interesting about us is obviously we're friends. We've been friends for a long time and you know I don't need to like well, how did you start out as a photographer? How did you start out? And you know I don't need to. We don't need to do the origin story. You know, every time we have an episode, so you have a different experience where you're. You are sort of doing an origin story because you're really peeling back these layers, especially me being so like treating this sometimes like a like, a bit of therapy but, we're also just not very funny.

Speaker 3: 20:07

People like I think there's a lot of podcasts where you have two buddies that have known each other for a long time.

Speaker 2: 20:12

Yeah, it is more of a comedy podcast and they're just really funny here and there's certain you know friends of mine where you know my comedy tendencies come up more than with you, and that doesn't mean that I don't crack jokes, especially when we're off camera.

Speaker 2: 20:29

But, I'm attracted to you in our conversations because a lot of it's grounded in the work that we do or the work that we consume of others, the books that we're reading and, to a certain extent, especially with me just talking about psychological aspects of why we as people, or me as a person, does what I do, uh, on a daily basis.

Speaker 2: 20:53

Um, and I don't know that I get to talk about that with too many other people, because I'm usually the one hearing from them why they do stuff or why they're struggling with this or that. Um, so it's it. It is interesting and for me to be able to to relate it to making work or creating content or doing the show or, you know, pursuing the arts, all of that stuff and the struggles that come up, um, for me, especially in the context of books that we're reading, novels that we're reading, shows that we're watching, movies that we're we're consuming, et cetera. Um, and just to double back to that sort of the patterns that develop, you know, we have episodes where it is a little bit more about why do I do this? I as in us, or me as in me personally, like you know, why am I drawn to this or why do I make these choices, why do I want to post this or make a video that's like this why do I want to talk about these things in this sort of public forum?

Speaker 2: 22:17

Or we just read a book on ontology and we're just going to basically have an exchange about what our takeaways were from it and you're going to illuminate things maybe I overlooked, and vice versa, and just go ham on it I think it's interesting.

Speaker 3: 22:30

Uh, one thing you said about the public forum is like both of us are probably private people in a sense, but I'm I'm like pretty. I think my personality type is just pretty private, reserve Absolutely In most things, and it is yeah, it is funny. I don't really think about this as being a public forum but, it no, but it totally is.

Speaker 3: 23:02

I that's, that's just the. It's interesting to me that sort of ends up in one although I don't, it's not yeah, and I don't have that connection until you point it out in an obvious way Like, oh, this is a public forum, right, it's like, yeah, some yeah, you know, there's definitely other people that aren't as watching or listening, um, and maybe that's just better that I just, you know, push that out and don't really think about that.

Speaker 2: 23:28

But, but I do think that part of why I talk about some of those more psychological things you know, why I do this or this struggle with this or whatever is because that's what I crave to hear in the content I consume, um, but in a in a way where it's not again self-indulgent or masturbatory like, oh, I just got to unload all my stuff because I just need to clear up the blockages and I need to signal that I'm working on things and all of that. You know, I'm sure there's some uh, some motivations in their conscious or subconscious that you know, some might observe and be like this guy really likes to talk about himself or sort of what he's going through or what his struggles are. But I think I'm drawn to that too. Going back to this idea of like making a show, because sometimes consciously, sometimes I think subconsciously, this is the type of stuff I want to hear from other people.

Speaker 2: 24:23

And I think for me one thing when I listened to podcasts and listen to people talk whether it's a Rick Rubin or you know, and somebody he's interviewing, a smart list, whatever I'm always going you, you all, have reached this level of success, a high level of success to varying degrees, right Character actor and you know and this or that you know um a prolific music producer, you know um some people there are, sort of artistic footprint is much, much more vast. Some it's a little bit smaller as far as um the real estate they occupy in show business. But I've always been like, where are the podcasts about the people that are like in the middle struggling?

Speaker 3: 25:06

They just have such low viewership.

Speaker 2: 25:08

Yeah, right, and but then part of me also goes. If they're out there, though, how do I find them? What tools are there to have somebody be like hey, you should check out this podcast from these sort of I don't know. No, normal is not the right word, but you know people that are you know that are in the thick of it or they're not. Uh, uh, and not to take away from the people I'm referring to, rick Rubin or you know, those guys on smart lists, cause they're in a struggle.

Speaker 3: 25:40

I know it's Rick Rubin and those guys on Smartly.

Speaker 2: 25:42

These are the two podcasts I've been listening to most in the last couple of weeks. Although I have a range of them that I listen to, it's just it's like right there at the forefront.

Speaker 2: 25:53

But you know where are those, you know where's that community with people that are in a similar situation to me and maybe talking about the things I talk about is, you know, there's some hope that you're going to connect with them and that they're making stuff too that I can then go watch, listen to or consume. Yeah, it's a big long point about, about, about.

Speaker 3: 26:21

It's probably a good opportunity to like ask for yeah, If anybody knows anybody else. That's kind of yeah doing similar things, or I mean, I don't think it's an if I.

Speaker 3: 26:31

I mean I know there's just absolutely yeah there's people out there that that do things, but I do think we I there could be a bit of self-selection happening or just if you don't really just care about doing the thing for the thing. Like podcasting is a medium that draws. I think there's probably, you know, 50 million people who have done like an episode of a podcast.

Speaker 2: 27:00

I don't know, I just made one or been a guest, just participated in a podcast.

Speaker 3: 27:04

Yeah, yeah, and you know there's, but most podcasts. Most people are probably doing that because they hear of podcasting whatever that is, as like this pathway towards fame or money Influence or money Influence. Yeah, there's not a deep. Maybe that's not a good way of putting it, but there's not a reason to do it.

Speaker 3: 27:36

They're not compelled to do it if you take away the potential for fame or for money and so maybe you have one, two, three, four episodes and then like, how many of our friends do we know that have done four episodes of a podcast? I'd wager a lot of them. Or like X amount of YouTube videos. You do it for a little bit for two months or three months or six months. And then you don't see success and so you lose the motivation, right um? I mean, it's probably the same kind of thing that leads people to sort of gym membership or something that's exactly right.

Speaker 2: 28:18

Yeah, ambitious, I always call it. You're not doing it as a practice. You're're doing it as a means to an end, that's right, you want to cultivate an external result, but there's not I don't know if this is the right language to use but sort of that intrinsic motivation. Like. I do this no matter what. This is non-negotiable.

Speaker 3: 28:42

And so maybe it's just a lot of the people that start podcasts where it's like the people it almost does, you know, position itself as a as a medium of extremes, because you do one or two episodes and you're not getting anywhere, right, well then you stop, yeah, or you do, and I mean there's plenty of podcasts out there that I've listened to where it's like two guys talking about movies or something that they they did the thing for a decade and they probably never had huge viewership, but they just did it because they love the thing and those are great. Those are great podcasts. Um, but yeah, I think there's probably a large majority of people that stopped doing the thing after how many, I think of, like YouTube photography channels or something. How many channels are there where somebody did you know four videos about you know right, and they didn't go viral?

Speaker 2: 29:36

So they just they stopped just stopped, yeah, yeah, that brings up an interesting point. You know, um, think about how many things in your life, my life that we have set out to do and it doesn't stick. You get to a point where it's like I don't want to do this. I feel like I should, but I don't want to. And that doesn't mean that you know you don't have certain areas where you form discipline and you and, and, and something makes you push through the. I don't want to do this, um, because you know you should. You made a commitment or you have a goal that you're, that you're hoping to achieve, um, and you stick with it. The crazy thing about this how many episodes have we done? 40, whatever this is, there has never been one instant where we have talked about getting together to do this, and I've been like, oh fuck.

Speaker 3: 30:32

Well, see that and that's.

Speaker 2: 30:33

I think, and that to me is If there's any motivation to keep doing it.

Speaker 3: 30:36

It's that.

Speaker 2: 30:37

And that to me is like a. When I think about you know we talked about purity in a lot of early episodes. I think about you know, like we talked about purity in a lot of early episodes are sort of like, uh, like you can't argue the the perfection of that Like I never have been like oh God damn it, what can I do to get out of it? This week I don't really feel like it.

Speaker 3: 31:00

You talk about like how many? Like you, bend over backwards to make it happen. How many things have we picked up and dropped in the last since we started this thing?

Speaker 2: 31:09

Absolutely.

Speaker 3: 31:12

There's not a lot of things in my life that I do on a consistent basis. There's just not Right. You know, everything that I consider adding, both of us think are at a point where you've added something, you probably have to sacrifice something else. Right. And there's just not a lot that I'm willing to pull away from. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 31:39

You know. I mean, there's certainly some things that I'd like to pursue here and there, but yeah, certainly some things that I'd like to pursue here and there. But yeah, yeah, it's just. There's something amazing about the fact that it has been frictionless and that, and I think that's why we do hear from people that watch and they're just like, wow, where did this come from? And you know, but I, you can't. You can't start intellectualize or like trying to create some kind of framework around that, or else you'll lose that. Like it's.

Speaker 3: 32:08

it just is what it is, and as soon as we try to kind of grasp it, I think that's that's how you lose it.

Speaker 2: 32:19

Well, I think this um kind of brings back full circle the potential change to the look, the vibe.

Speaker 3: 32:29

That's almost trying to grab it or observe it.

Speaker 2: 32:31

Well, to me it's like, you know, it's a little bit of like well, don't mess with it. You know like, don't mess with the secret sauce, don't change the, you know the whatever like the just the simple fact that two people will bend over backwards to have a conversation, I D, you know, roughly once a week, or once every twice, every couple of weeks.

Speaker 3: 32:54

however, it shakes out yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:56

Is that? Is that something special enough that, like that's the show? Yeah, it's two people who really want to talk to each other, just having a conversation.

Speaker 2: 33:09

Having a conversation within, not like a, a chosen framework in a sense but sort of like the framework is determined by the fact that we have these common interests. That were. We have certainly a lot of different things between us our ages, you know our kids, no kids, youtube, no YouTube. Job, traditional, job, non-traditional, you know all that stuff but still, you know there's the shared interest photography and you know art and cinema and writing and expressing ideas and making a, you know, a podcast. It's just that. Is that the show Like? So don't like don't fucking okay, this segment.

Speaker 2: 33:54

Alex is going to do a monologue and now we're going to do our you know five cool things.

Speaker 3: 33:58

Well, my favorite, my favorite. Always we had this like wood table in college and, um, I don't know it, it's just like my, my, my down home country roots, you know, but there's nothing better than just sitting at a table and just having a conversation over some drinks or over a cup of coffee.

Speaker 3: 34:23

Yeah, like there's literally nothing, like that is one of the best parts about being human. Well, it's one of the greatest joys that I have on this, like existing on this planet is sitting across the table from a person or a group of people that I care about and just catching up. Yeah, and that's kind of all I care about, like that's all I want to get. Come on over, I'll make you a cup of coffee and we'll sit down Like that's that's it, that's that's the entire. If we can just capture that, then we got it entire, if we can just capture that then we got it and that's, that's almost the art project of this, or like the.

Speaker 3: 35:11

You know, the is just trying to capture that. How do we, how do we strip out all of the layers of artificial? And I and we do a pretty decent job at it at this point and not really thinking about I mean, obviously this is a very meta episode where we're talking about the stupid shit while we're doing the stupid shit and then, like, we're looking and referencing the cameras.

Speaker 2: 35:31

Uh, it's a very this is an exercise, I guess, but but, but it's still it's centered around like sort of like, the, the, the, the, the nature of, of making something, and sort of the, the, the, where making something comes from, especially in a collaborative setting where you have two people where there's a lot of potential for it to fall apart, yeah, and you, you, you strip every like candles are candles.

Speaker 3: 36:01

We have fire. We have water, we have a solid table we have some comfortable chairs. We're in the same space every time, pretty much yep um, sometimes it's morning, sometimes it's afternoon, sometimes it's evening. We, you know you use the medium close-up, you know you've got the square frame so you don't have all like it's just yeah, what, what's standard definition?

Speaker 3: 36:27

standard definition for ease more than anything just for like data create a frictionless process and then it's just sit down and have a conversation, um, that's, I think that's like the exciting thing of trying to capture that. You know, know, it's, it's almost like uh, this is a. You know you, you told me, you told me a couple of weeks ago that somebody left the project or left a comment, pardon, um about like, make a, make a movie, or yeah, yeah, it wasn't like uh, stop sitting there talking, go make a movie.

Speaker 2: 37:03

It was just basically, like you guys seem like you're two smart, talented guys Like you should.

Speaker 3: 37:10

But this is part of that. Yeah, Like this is. Yeah, this is, you know, Linklater makes Boyhood and it's the same. This is a film project and that might not be incredibly clear week to week, episode to episode, but I'll tell you what in in five years, yeah, it's going to be incredibly clear. Yeah, and you know, 20 years which, even when you say that, even if you say that, I'm like I could go 20 years.

Speaker 3: 37:43

If we can, if we can maintain, can maintain. Obviously, forces of nature aside, that is a project in and of itself. And if we could go 20 years and manage to just make it all look the same from the start, sound the same from the start, the only thing that I mean I don't think we're going to go 20 years in space.

Speaker 1: 38:04

Yeah, unfortunately, Unfortunately, I would love, mean I don't think we're going to go 20 years in space. Yeah, unfortunately, unfortunately.

Speaker 3: 38:06

I would love to. I don't know if that's in the cards, um, but like that's. That is a film that's an amazing film.

Speaker 2: 38:14

Yeah, Um, just it's a cool story sitting down exploring. Yeah, it's a cool story like and you guys sat there like once oh man basically every week and had a several hours if we did a hundred a hundred episodes.

Speaker 3: 38:29

You know it's over a hundred hours, yeah, of conversation, that's right somebody could watch and trace and yeah, that's cool to me and yeah, just capturing what it feels like to sit across the table from somebody you care about and have a conversation about whatever. I mean, we're not just having a conversation about whatever we're having a conversation about a theme.

Speaker 2: 38:52

In a sense it loose loosely yeah, but but for me at least, I'm like I want to learn something or I want to explore something that you know, you know opens a door or illuminates a dark part of the cave. You know of my understanding of things, whether it's myself or the world around me, have lots of conversations with people to varying degrees of uh, the varying degrees of um, impact or value or takeaway, or whatever you want to call it. And there are some people where you're having a conversation and other forces are at play and you're like I gotta get going. My kids are, you know, whatever Um, uh, or. Or you want to exit the conversation, not because that person is um, you know there's something wrong with them or whatever, but you maybe you're just not connecting in the best way or you're sort of oh yeah, dude, yeah, that's super cool man, yeah, oh, tell me about you know, like you, you you're kind of going through the motions yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:59

And that's a. That's a one extreme, but then, you know, this to me is another extreme, where you are drawn to talk to that person. You seek out those conversations and that exploration and that illumination, you showing me new books, me showing you texting videos or this or that. They're not all going to be like I'm going to immediately start reading that or I'm going to go watch that right away, but but that's, that's something that in all of the conversations I have with people you know is, is is somewhat unique to you and I now I can have a lot of conversations with my buddy Nick, my buddy Chris, and sometimes it's a little one sided. More of them to me, uh, more of me to them. Obviously, sometimes these conversations are one sided, especially the ones where I'm working through some psychology and whatnot and you're, you're listening um and asking questions here and there.

Speaker 2: 41:03

Um, but I don't, I just don't want to make not that you are, but I don't want to make light of how profound of a thing that is. And again, going back to the catalyst or the impetus to make a show quote-unquote around it, that to me is a very special thing around it. That to me is a very special thing to send to be the center of, of documenting what we're doing, a friendship, conversations, exploration, um, all of that stuff I think it.

Speaker 3: 41:37

Yeah, and that's a good way to put it. I mean, I think, at least in my mind, I do see this more of a documentary project. Yeah, I think this is a long-term documentary film project.

Speaker 3: 41:44

In my mind, I do see this more of a documentary project. Yeah, I think this is a long term documentary film project in my mind, rather than a podcast, yeah, or a talk show or something. So when it's like, oh, can we make it a show? It's like no, because then it's not a documentary anymore. And yeah it's. You know, that's not to say that we won't make other things. Yeah, but you know, I I like keeping this as a consistent, like you know, there's no reason that we have to stop making this to make another thing. Yeah, but this is this is a project, this is a documentary film project. Yeah, and you know, we've been in production for 80 weeks or whatever.

Speaker 2: 42:30

So there's an interesting thing that my brain does as the chopper, that is.

Speaker 2: 42:37

I don't know, I've ever had this like takes me back to being in Los Angeles where the helicopters were nonstop. So my brain works a lot in in ideas like ideas bubbling up that are sort of a setup for a story. You know as much as I, you know, have strayed away from screenwriting, I still think of a lot of things in the context of, like, what's the left turn that this situation could take that would make this a really fascinating story. And I have had they're not dark thoughts, but I think they're a little bit dark. But but thoughts of you hatching a plan to lure me into this like years long podcast where you seemingly you know just like, uh, with good intentions and all this like to have these conversations and draw all this shit out of me, like talking about myself or this or that, and at the end you have crafted this film documentary or whatever.

Speaker 2: 43:45

That's not like a takedown of me, like a like a this guy's a fucking piece of work, but just like a character study or portrait the super long game.

Speaker 3: 43:54

Yeah, I mean to be fair, like it is kind of what's happening here but it's for both of us. But but to me, like this is it's. I mean, I've told you since the beginning like I think one of the biggest appeals to me for what we're doing is I want, you know, our kids to be able to go back and just watch week to week, where we're where. Where was their headspace in regard to this thing?

Speaker 2: 44:22

And so, yeah, it is kind of a character, but there's nothing like I know. But like I think of like, like, like the Andy Kaufman version of of of what would, what would come out of this, like the big twist reveal or whatever, like there's something fascinating to me about that story. Like I don't and I'm not communicating that because I, you know, I actually have a fear that that's what someone would do to someone else or that's what you would do.

Speaker 3: 44:47

Well, it is what is happening, like that is the thing.

Speaker 2: 44:50

But that next step of taking all of this footage and everything that has come from these, while you, in a sort of decept who I am, what, good or bad and put it into the form of a 90 minute film or whatever that you know, you submit to a film festival, and it's like a big deal, it's like what you know what I mean, like, but it's like a bombshell for me because I'm going holy shit, this person that I trusted in, you know so, just completely.

Speaker 3: 45:34

Yeah, but I so I think of that as too much emphasis on like the self there, though, Like there is no like, like that's. You know, that's Matthew O'Brien approaching the situation, right, that's not, that's like your conscious self approaching the situation and clearly putting these like oh man, I will be used and I will be the subject, and it's like that's not as interesting as just what this looks like over 10 years. I completely agree, that's a very finite version of what this actually is going to be, or could be.

Speaker 2: 46:13

I think what I'm getting at is it's essentially a pitch of a story idea like like, not like actually, let's go figure this out, but I'm like that would be an interesting story like this, a film or something about some like someone doing that can you imagine how much work it would be to go through and make a super cut of everything we've done so? That's an ai project if I've ever right, but or you know my character looking back on all the things that you were filming outside of the podcast, like were you walking?

Speaker 2: 46:43

around with a camcorder like you talked about, like going to the estate sales with me and having and filming some of it. I want to grab footage of exactly yeah like you see these things that I'm doing and you're like, and again you present that you want to document it for an uh, for a purpose that I am amenable to but, ultimately, it's a deception to to do this other thing and and yeah, and and not necessarily that you're like matt's a piece of shit and I want to document how he sucks as a human, but just sort of like.

Speaker 2: 47:18

The end result is I've spent seven years with this guy making podcasts and filming him and doing stuff, and here's who he is. Wouldn't that be fascinating? That would be a movie. That would be. I don't know.

Speaker 3: 47:33

There's something interesting about that, see that's not as interesting to me as what I feel like this is, which is like this is well, no, no, no. And I'm not saying but what this is like. This is a movie that I love. It's Louis Malle and my Dinner with Andre.

Speaker 2: 47:54

I haven't seen it.

Speaker 3: 47:55

And it's essentially this. This is. It's a Louis mall and my dinner with Andre. I haven't seen it and it's essentially this. This is it. It's it's a conversation and, like the, the, you know, they're getting different courses brought in but they're just having a conversation over dinner and it kind of steps up to that. And there's other films that have done this. I can give them to show notes or whatever. Um, there's one where it's like it's like a politician and a poet and uh, uh, yeah, I mean there's there's other films that have attempted this and it's like recurring conversations.

Speaker 2: 48:30

It's just a dialogue, or yeah?

Speaker 3: 48:32

or whatever, and um between people. It's essentially a podcast, but it's a film yeah and it's interesting that at you know my dinner with andre, I feel like did it the best. It towed the line without crossing over isn't pretentious garbage, but this is when Louis Malle made that film. That was, yes, the ideas are a little more focused and maybe it's a little more thoughtful or intentional or just it's more boiled down.

Speaker 3: 49:18

It's like the core essence of like here's some ideas, here's a progression. Yeah, but the that was the format. He was a filmmaker and that was the format that he could use at the time. You know you, you gotta make it into like a 90 minute, two hour cut. And you know you, it's interesting. Now we can just upload an hour every two weeks to the internet and you know we pay our hosting fees. It can live there forever, right? We have all of this on like drives, it's on the cloud, like this is all, yeah, recorded. And you know, theoretically, we, we keep keep paying our hosting fees, like it's always going to be there, right, and so this is like the natural progression of that project of my dinner with andre. It's now, is it, you know, as? Is it as beautiful, sure, is it, as you know, well, blocked or maybe not, but but we also don't know what it is, because and is it as?

Speaker 3: 50:19

deep and like in in a it's, it's boiled down to its essence. No, but there's going to be so much more depth if you look at like, if we, hypothetically we did a thousand episodes over 20 years, 25 years, I guess that's such. I mean, that's a life Nobody will ever go through that, but that's an interesting project. Somebody might, I probably not. I doubt it. Yeah, but that's yeah, that's a.

Speaker 2: 50:50

that's a really interesting way to but it's at least something that's interesting to document time and to stumble across. I mean, can you imagine? I mean, can you imagine right now if you came across, uh, a video library of 25 years of my dad's life or or yeah, yeah, you know you're.

Speaker 2: 51:11

you found out that your dad or grandpa or whoever maybe not even someone related to you, a complete stranger recorded 20 years of conversations with the same person over and over, again and again, within a relative framework, a general subject matter art and the life as a creative.

Speaker 3: 51:32

That's kind of what our bucket is what our bucket is. A filmmaker um, I'm gonna just go get my, just because I this is a recommendation. So there's a filmmaker who does he did something semi similar. We'll kill two birds with one stone here too, cause I um. The other film I was referencing was mind walk with the uh, the politician and the poet and the yeah Um.

Speaker 2: 52:06

Oh, are you thinking too about the filmmaker that did the? Um, the kids in school? And every seven years? Um, I know you're not thinking of this, but there's the, that documentary series where, like every seven years, he visited with the same kids from this class where he first met them when they were, you know, like in kindergarten, and every seven years he would go back and talk to them all and see where they were in their lives and what was going on with them. My wife and I watched that.

Speaker 2: 52:38

I feel, like I'm blanking on what the heck it was called.

Speaker 3: 52:41

Yeah, I'm not. That was an interesting project.

Speaker 2: 52:45

I'm going to visit with these same people every seven years and document it.

Speaker 3: 52:49

Yeah, the one I'm thinking of is I think his name is Jonas Mikas. I'm not sure if Mikas is how the last name is pronounced M-E-K-A-S. I've only read it. I've never watched an interview of him or anything. But the movie I'm thinking of is, as I was moving ahead, occasionally I saw brief glimpses of beauty, and he has a ton of projects, reminiscence of a journey to Lithuania, diaries, notes and sketches. I mean, it's just, and these are all documentary projects, yeah, I mean, but like we're talking.

Speaker 3: 53:25

So as I was moving ahead, occasionally I saw brief glimpses of beauty. It's like 288 minutes. It's 30 years of private home movie footage. Oh wow, edited together to create a project. That's cool. So 30 years of somebody's life edited together, and yeah, I mean it's. It's like an amazing achievement.

Speaker 2: 53:43

It's fascinating to think about. Like what? What is the?

Speaker 3: 53:46

what are some of the?

Speaker 2: 53:46

through lines and themes that come up Like distilling all that down to 288 minutes and yeah whether it tells a story or just presents. You know, I I I obviously haven't seen it and to know what, what it feels like, but that's, yeah, that's fascinating to me.

Speaker 3: 54:06

So he was born in 1922. Yeah, um, he was in a Nazi labor camp like crazy, crazy life. I'm not sure if he's passed or I. He might still be alive 22. Yeah, he'd be 103. Yeah, let's see which would be. Yeah, that'd be crazy. Yeah, I mean the. The work is crazy.

Speaker 2: 54:32

And I wonder too, like you know, like that's the thing, like those those long sustained projects, you know, I think particularly with with somebody who's an individual, who's executing it, it's more conceivable to me Passed away on January 23rd 2019.

Speaker 3: 54:46

Okay, so it didn't quite make it to a hundred. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 54:50

Crazy, crazy, uh. But but you know, the the he's the sort of the drive, the fact that it's sort of a non-negotiable that I'm going to document and have these home movies and all that stuff, because, because I can't imagine, it's just sort of like what I captured when I, when I what I just happened to capture, naturally without thinking of making of it maybe being a project, see, but I think Because we have lots of there's something to it where it's like you talk about being compelled to do something or to Like this, we're compelled to record this and sit down and you start working through.

Speaker 3: 55:34

He was probably just compelled to like. I doubt he was like this is going to be some grand project potential then you're pulled out of the moment. You're not, you know, you're not experiencing like I think you. You recognize the potential, yes.

Speaker 3: 55:47

You recognize the significance of each passing moment, yeah, and then you recognize the significance of each passing moment in the context of you know the yeah I mean he lived for a hundred years, like, and so when you, when you have all of those things, then you reckon you, you kind of look at it in a way where it's you just you're doing the thing yeah and you're know that there is the potential for it to be something greater or something, but then it's also just like you're just recording the episode, yeah.

Speaker 2: 56:23

And I think what I'm getting at is the probability of someone following through on that as an individual. Um, I'm compelled, or you know, I'm going to document these things. Um, the the potential for someone to falter on that commitment is less than when two people are involved. Yeah, Um, and I'm not.

Speaker 2: 56:45

I'm not meaning for this to be self congratulatory. Look how amazing Alex and I are that we've made this commitment because it's easier, because you're accountable, but but. Made this commitment because, no, it's easier, because you're accountable, but, but but the the well. The other crazy thing, though, is and it looks like a love fest here between the two of us, but it's just, it's crazy to me that it's effortless. I I literally don't ever think for a second. How do I get out of it this week?

Speaker 3: 57:09

well, and that's probably.

Speaker 2: 57:10

I try to get out of a lot of shit. Hey, I, I do get out of a lot and I do get out of a lot of shit.

Speaker 4: 57:14

I do get out of a lot of shit and I do get out of a lot of shit.

Speaker 3: 57:16

No for sure I agree, but I do think there's, yeah, there's like there's something, some invisible force that just kind of, if you can see, like if certain qualities align, like he's definitely getting something out of the observation and the moment of just recording things.

Speaker 2: 57:35

And I think that's what's interesting about this and, again, I don't know if it comes through. I mean, I like to think that it does and I feel like, when I watch back through to do show notes or pull clips or whatever, that I feel it there's something there about two people that want to be there and they want to talk about things that are meaningful or, uh again, exploratory or helpful. You know, whatever it is that's, you know, and and this goes back to again the beginning, sitting here going I don't know what we're going to talk about. Yeah, um, and and and not, and this not being a show like it's not. Well, we don't have to worry about what we're going to talk about, because both you and I did our homework and we were good little producers and came up with topics for the first segment and the whatever, and we created a structure for the show, because then we don't have to, we don't have to worry about moments where we sit down and go, uh, what are we?

Speaker 3: 58:35

what are we doing here? Yeah, um, I never think. I don't think we really ever sit here too and just like well, what do we, where do we go? Now it's always very natural, like it carries. Okay, we're gonna go here.

Speaker 2: 58:47

We're gonna go like there's always yeah, red to pull well, what's interesting is, when it started started off too, I don't know that you had gotten to a place where you're like, oh, this is the show, this is the episode. But you know, I felt I'm like I like this, let's just get into this right now. Yeah, um, this is interesting to me. What's kind of?

Speaker 3: 59:07

and you have to kind of catch up or, with documentary, take my lead.

Speaker 2: 59:11

Always keep the camera rolling right kind of just learn yeah, you've got to just abr always be rolling, always be, always be rolling but we, we learn that over time.

Speaker 3: 59:19

It's just like you just got to kind of, yeah, get the camera.

Speaker 2: 59:22

Well, and the other thing, too, is like you might be like, well, I don't know that we're ready to roll, uh, like I don't know that we're there yet, but it's like well, who cares? Like you can edit it out. If it's not, if it's, you know we can cut in later. If it's not quite, you know quite the start yeah, that's ideal.

Speaker 3: 59:39

You can always find what. Yeah, what I I think it is interesting, though I would almost I think we should watch that. It's 288 minutes I would love to I think we should watch that, like maybe live stream that somehow. I think that would be really interesting that'd be wild. Watch it with some. I don't know if anybody would be interested in watching that, but sometimes, you know, it's like a long. Maybe we take an afternoon or something we're like hey we're gonna live stream this.

Speaker 3: 1:00:05

I don't know what the technical aspects would look like there or um you know.

Speaker 2: 1:00:09

another option is we sort of say like we're gonna have a special episode where we have just watched this 288 minutes, and then we immediately start talking about it after we're done watching it. Yeah, and just record it like this.

Speaker 3: 1:00:22

I don't even know if I'd want to do that. I was. I was talking to Audrey about that the other night or maybe a week or two ago, and just this like I hate this expectation when you leave a movie. Yeah, like what do you think we got to go?

Speaker 2: 1:00:34

talk about it.

Speaker 3: 1:00:35

Well, no, and sometimes I enjoy it, I really enjoy it. You know, let's go grab a beer, let's go grab a drink and talk about it, but at the same time and you know there's lower stakes with certain people Like you and I can talk about it and it's just. You know, we both kind of understand. Okay, let's just talk about some observations.

Speaker 2: 1:00:54

Yeah, explore it Like what are your initial thoughts? First instance, some people it's like.

Speaker 3: 1:00:59

It's like tell me, yeah, tell me this man, or like it's like look, man, somebody spent the three years of their life making this. I'm not going to be able to digest it.

Speaker 2: 1:01:14

And you know, 12 minutes after we left the theater. Well, I mean, I like, like and I've said this before like, uh, you know one of my favorite movies, uh, the shining.

Speaker 2: 1:01:18

I'm like, I think I feel like I've had to watch that movie 20 times to really feel like digesting it for 30 exactly, yeah like you know what I mean like, and I and I am just naturally someone, even when it comes to a book, a show, a movie, whatever, sometimes I'll read these reviews, the good reviews of a film that really, and I'm like there's no way they watch that more than once. And they formulated these really. I mean, obviously it's something they do all the time, it's a muscle that they've exercised.

Speaker 2: 1:01:51

Not that I don't analyze film or stories, maybe just not with any real structure. It's a little that they've exercised. Not that I don't analyze film or stories, maybe just not with any real structure. It's a little bit more stream of consciousness or free form. But I need a lot of time. I need to have not only sort of my gut reaction or my instinctive response.

Speaker 2: 1:02:10

I need to sometimes go back and watch it two, three times, um, to to just sort of double check Is that, is that what I think that meant, or is that how, how that made me feel Um, and I definitely came away, you know, just to throw it out there. You know the last movie I saw, the brutalist, and not to get into it. But you know, I I came away with um, you, you know more than just sort of general impressions or sort of how did I feel in general. You know I had some well, this really meant to me, what I saw with this and what this communicated to me this moment, the end of the film. You know things like that, um, and there is a, there is a desire definitely to to be like.

Speaker 2: 1:02:50

Well, you know, I want to know what alex thinks like I missed out on seeing that with you guys, but still looking forward to, if possible, to either see it again or to hang out with you and Alex and even Eli, and go, let's jam about this.

Speaker 3: 1:03:06

There is something, though, to be said about film as an experience like film as a physical experience, rather than just an intellectual experience and I a lot of times I love approaching a film just from the sense of let's just like see what this take it in absorb it. Take a shower, yeah like you're not really thinking about, like, oh, what the water is made up of, right, this is how you know, this is the temperature and this is what the components of the wall are made of. You're just there?

Speaker 2: 1:03:44

Yeah, just be present with it. Yeah, and I think that that's something that gets a little bit lost when there's this tendency to To like work at it, be a critic or create, create some, or I want to signal to my friends that I really like understood this in a profound way, so I'm really going to work hard to absorb it and then, when I sit down and talk, I'm going to. I'm going to have some real cogent points. It ruins the experience a little bit In my opinion.

Speaker 3: 1:04:10

I know some people love that and I, you know, I think it is. It's different for everybody. But long, long way of saying I think we, yeah, maybe we consider doing like a watch of that. Yeah, that'd be interesting. I mean, maybe we do an episode on it. I don't, I don't know how we would even do that. I don't even know if anybody that listens to this is this conversation.

Speaker 2: 1:04:30

Hatches that idea yeah we think about it, we ruminate about it maybe we even do it and we go you know, yeah, uh whatever like it's, it's an idea 288 minutes on flip cam, so we would have to 120, only 120, so we would have to. Uh, we get three more, we set them right next to each other and when 120 minutes, when the red light goes off we hit the second flips.

Speaker 3: 1:04:51

It would be, it'd be interesting though, yeah, I, I it's a. It's a film I've watched. It's like um Napoleon, like the silent Napoleon.

Speaker 2: 1:05:02

Yes, not the Ridley Scott Napoleon.

Speaker 3: 1:05:04

Um, it's just a film that, yeah, I've started over and, over and over and just never, haven't finished worked all the way through it. Yeah, finished worked all the way through it. Yeah, I mean, because it is an, I mean yeah, it's an experience. It's home, home video footage. Some of it's very brief, yeah, but yeah I I think that'd be a fun. It just fits well with the the idea of this of the show.

Speaker 2: 1:05:26

Well, and it's. I think too it's. It's. What's interesting is is absorbing work that doesn't have a traditional, what we would think is sort of a traditional form. This isn't you just said? The thing that we're talking about is that it's 288 minutes. Right, we're acknowledging that this is very long and that's different than most documentary films or films that you watch. Even the Brutalist people are going in knowing that there's an intermission, that it's almost four hours long and that has an impact.

Speaker 3: 1:05:56

But even that, like you know, that has a very cohesive narrative structure and it's like a more traditional like, okay, this is going to happen, and then, absolutely, this is going to happen, and then we're moving into the second act, that we're moving into the third act and, um, whereas this is, yes, it has narrative structure in the sense that life has a narrative structure, and maybe part of that is just you present information and then the viewer is going to dictate the structure.

Speaker 2: 1:06:23

But I think what's exciting about that is again whether he sort of decided early on I'm going to document our lives for 30 years and then make something out of it.

Speaker 2: 1:06:36

At some point that maybe came up and he maybe was more disciplined about recording and different situations and whatnot. But again, I don't want this to sound self-congratulatory, but part of what I think makes me sit down every week to do this is not only the connection with you and the conversations we have, but I think I just really liked the idea of what this is. That's interesting to me and I think when I'm sitting down making something that I think about, I'd like to see other versions of this. I want to see there's.

Speaker 2: 1:07:16

There's a YouTuber and it's not a podcast, obviously um, where you know there's conversation, but she vlogs. Her name CQ Lucius and she's a, you know, a musician who has had to go into sort of real, like adult life. She's in her thirties and she had to get a job, she had to move out from her parents' house and just sort sort of like figure out life, not as a struggling artist trying to make it as a musician, and she's documenting that process. And I, you, you, you. Your first thought is this is just another youtuber vlogging about stuff, but just just like this could be looked at as another podcast. And again, I don't want to get self congratulatory.

Speaker 3: 1:07:52

There's something different. It's kind's kind of like when I talked to you about all the pipe videos. There's something a little more pure. It's like vlog in the very traditional sense of vlog. Yes, not vlog in like I'm going to try to get a million followers Right. It's just like.

Speaker 2: 1:08:08

Well, even in her early episodes she had a structure. She started because there was like a challenge where you made a video but you took a letter of the alphabet. You went through every letter of the alphabet and you came up with a word that starts with a. That's like the thesis or central topic of your episode. But then she got through z and sort of like. It has evolved and and been a little bit freer but more interesting. Both were interesting, but more interesting because it doesn't have this structure imposed on it.

Speaker 3: 1:08:41

Yeah, and I think that was like a way in.

Speaker 2: 1:08:43

Yeah, and so what's interesting to me is we have a superstructure, that is, two guys that really want to talk to each other once a week and document it and talking about stuff within this framework art and the creative life and all that um. Doing this thing, we have our little practice like we have a little, we have our little rituals.

Speaker 3: 1:09:03

We pour the water right yeah, friday we'll pick whiskey. Yeah, if it's right. Where's the coffee?

Speaker 2: 1:09:09

like the candle there's these in in in the world of what we're doing. Um, the point being is, just those types of things interest me and don't get me wrong, I've referenced Rick's podcast and smart list. I like all of that stuff.

Speaker 3: 1:09:26

I don't think they're the same, though for sure.

Speaker 2: 1:09:28

No, a hundred percent. But I, but I, but I. I like things that are more of what some might argue as a show, like a traditional show, an interview show, a talk show, whatever. And granted, rick and even Smartless, though, they have their little intro banter and all the stuff that they do, then they have their conversation with the guest and then they have their post-talk. I think audiences would be like if they broke from that form. They'd be like where's what? Hey, where's my show?

Speaker 2: 1:09:58

yeah, you know, what I mean and and and not saying that we don't have forms, like you're pointing out, there's sort of these elements that are characters in the world there's an element to the conversation too, and like but this goes back if we change the shit

Speaker 2: 1:10:11

if we not necessarily what we talk about, but if we changed even the banner and the logo and or whatever the avatar, whatever the fuck it's called, you know, like what does that do? Because, because we again we don't have an opening segment alex's monologue and then you know, these things, these the books that we're reading, and this segment and that segment. You know we don't, we don't have that kind of stuff, but there's still, there are still. We don't have that kind of stuff, but there are still elemental ingredients of what we're doing here. And going back to part of what the beginning of this was, why did we think about changing it?

Speaker 3: 1:10:51

Absolutely Well, like you said, like if you yeah, if you get away from why you're doing it in the first place, well then, yeah, it just. I think it just all comes down to just like what's like, what is I don't know. See, I'm having this conflict between part of me almost feels like like guilty of trying to nail this down too much, like we're doing too much Monday morning quarterback right now.

Speaker 2: 1:11:41

Yeah, and to me again, I don't know that I want to nail it down, but it's like it's more. I wonder what are the forces at play in and having a moment of inspiration or an instinct or whatever to make a change. And I don't think we have to come up with the answer, we don't have to go. Well, we were insecure about whether what we were making was a show enough, or if the look of it was this enough or that enough, or signaling whatever the fuck.

Speaker 3: 1:12:11

I just sit there and go, I don't know for signaling, whatever the fuck, I just sit there and go. I think part of it too is I like I very much, you know I signaling and commercialization and just like the, the expectation for that. Yeah, I think that probably had some you know some part of it. But we were both kind of clear with our reasoning and we we've had discussions about this in private many times, even on the on the on the show many times, um, but I think part of it is it's there is like a boredom.

Speaker 3: 1:12:44

Yeah, Desire for novelty Not not a boredom in the experience of creating it, but just a boredom in like oh man, I see this thing over and over. Exactly it, but just a boredom and like oh man, I see this thing over and over.

Speaker 2: 1:12:54

Exactly, and so there's nothing different, or?

Speaker 3: 1:12:56

I want a different cover. Yeah. I want, you know I want, I want to look at something different. But then, almost at a certain point, it becomes hard to think of it looking any different Right it, it doesn't serve it looking any different Right it, it doesn't serve it to change it. Yep.

Speaker 3: 1:13:18

Um, I had a point that I, uh, I wanted to. I shouldn't have, I just cleared it off and I I was, uh, I was looking to try to see if I could find it and I I wanted to come back to it. And I totally find it, and I wanted to come back to it and I totally lost it. Sorry about that, no, no, no. No, we were, it was right in the I'm trying to go back. It was what you were just saying. And then I went to pull something.

Speaker 2: 1:13:49

And I lost it and I feel like I'm too right now to bring you back in.

Speaker 3: 1:13:58

We'll see if it comes, if it doesn't. But no. I think the quality of just whatever comes to mind, whatever we're here to talk about, is what comes out of our mouth. That is the essence of the whole thing.

Speaker 2: 1:14:16

Well, I think, too, something that's interesting about this conversation going in this direction is there might even be something like a word that keeps coming up into my head right now is like insecurity. Okay, and I'm not saying that you having some inspiration to change the look of the channel came from any kind of insecurity, yeah, but I'm sitting here thinking, um, although I could make an argument that maybe maybe there was an element of that, like I keep seeing the same thing over and over. We have to to refresh this, or there is. This isn't new enough that I'm insecure about what the audience you know wants, or what I want to see are the look of this show be you know, whatever, um, and and I wonder too if part of me having a little insecurity or or questioning, or wondering or whatever is like what

Speaker 2: 1:15:11

is this, what are we doing? And is there something in me, psychologically, subconsciously, that almost wanted to have a conversation about it, not to nail things down, because that sounds like well, okay, now we know what it is and there's no fluidity or freeness to it at all. But part of me is, like what is this or what's it going to end up being? And you even talking about like you know, we've talked about this like how cool is it to have a documentation of these conversations. But when you put it in the context of like what if we did this for 20 years? Like I never thought about that? You know, that's fascinating to me. We've talked, too about I would love to stumble across my dad having a podcast with one of his close friends and there's five years of conversations that I can just watch of my dad about serious stuff.

Speaker 3: 1:16:09

Yeah, and also just a clear progression of thought. Again, just watch the episode. Yeah, and also just like a clear progression of thought, Like again, just look at watch the episode. Yeah. And I finally yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:16:20

Okay, he's got it. No, no, no, let's go.

Speaker 3: 1:16:22

So I was just the idea of you know, making this film of 30 years of life moments was like such a novelty.

Speaker 2: 1:16:34

Yes, yes and now it's commonplace, right many of us are going to have decades potentially of online material content that we've generated about ourselves or and yes I have I, you know I in my video about my studio tour, I went back and I was surprised Hold on to where you're going Um, and in sort of telling the backstory of why I overhauled my studio, I went back to footage that was seven years old of me holding the camera in my basement filming all this crap, all over the place With your tight haircut.

Speaker 2: 1:17:17

Yeah, going like talking about what this space is gonna be used for as a production company owner and all this stuff, you know, and that was fascinating to see where my head was at seven years ago with what I was intending that space to be and what it is now, which I never would have guessed. And same thing with this right Like we're going to have conversations and seven years from now, five years from now, seven months from now, we're going to go. I didn't think we were going to go down these rabbit holes and what impact it would have on us.

Speaker 3: 1:17:46

I haven't rewatched any of the episodes yet.

Speaker 2: 1:17:49

Um and I've only re-watched them in the sense of having to go through them for show notes it's very close, but after it goes out, I haven't re-watched a single episode in terms of going back.

Speaker 3: 1:18:03

Maybe I'll watch through some of the YouTube episodes to make sure that we had audio issues for a couple weeks but I haven't like, oh, I'm going to go back and revisit episode three. I haven't. I just haven't done that. Yep. But yeah, the, the um, I don't want to hijack the no, no, no, I I finished it.

Speaker 3: 1:18:23

You know that was that was because I mean, yeah, you're talking about okay. I went back seven years like if you can have that long vision and, like you know, I don't look at this. Most people, they are looking through this commercial lens and they're looking at this as like a six months a year, two years and I'll have a million followers. Yeah. And there's like these unrealistic or just commercial expectations put on the thing, the, the vlog or the channel you talked about or I think CQ Lucius yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:19:03

Yeah, and so when I was in I mean it was probably 2009 was when I found that there was this channel. He still makes videos. I think his name is chris I'm not, don't quote me on that, but his channel name is cc runner, and I remember watching this guy's videos when he was I think he was in high school and then he finished his like thing and went and did you know races and went to, I guess, med school or pharmacy school or like I. I literally like it's just him holding a phone, he walks around his house. He still does the same exact. Yeah, still blogs the exact same way.

Speaker 3: 1:19:51

Yeah, you know, 16 years later, yeah, he's put out videos in the last couple of months and he's got maybe you know, 3 000 subscribers. He never lost it like. He never lost, like his vision was never. I'm gonna get on here, right, and I'm gonna try to get a million followers. I'm gonna try to be, to try to be YouTube Steven Spielberg or anything like that. He just wanted to kind of document himself over time and kept it completely pure, I assume, kind of like what you were talking about, which is part of the fascination of it.

Speaker 3: 1:20:27

And I've been following him for 60. He's like a family member Right following him for 60, like he's like a family member right, like I've been following him and like as he walks around his houses and like talks about goals or talks about his life, or like what he's doing or where he's moving he's moved from state to state to state to state to like house to house to house to house, talked about like different relationships, and it's just an odd relationship that you have with a person over time and he, yeah, he just never lost, he never stopped because he was never doing it for fame or anything like that. And so, by way of that, I can scroll on his channel back to those 2009 videos and watch those and I remember when I was watching those 16 years ago and then I can scroll up to the videos that he put out last week and I can and it's that's just. That is like the coolest experiment in my mind and most people you know we talk about all this content that's out and how it is.

Speaker 3: 1:21:30

It's not as rare to like have these whole movies or whatever, because it's just everybody's got it, but most people are doing it from a perspective of I'm putting this out to get attention. I don't think there's a lot of people that are doing it and there's more now. Yeah, because now we've lived with it for a couple of generations and you can have people that look back and like, oh man, that like when it is, you just do keep it level the whole time. It's really cool, just as a documentation experience absolutely yes and so I think we're gonna see more and more.

Speaker 3: 1:22:03

As time moves on and these storage becomes cheaper, it becomes easier to but, um, yeah, never, never did it for the, so he kept. He was able to keep it consistent. Yeah, and he's been putting up videos for 16 years now. Yeah, never, never did it for the, so he kept. He was able to keep it consistent, and he's been putting up videos for 16 years now.

Speaker 2: 1:22:17

Which is yeah, that's just fascinating you can just trace it all the way.

Speaker 3: 1:22:22

Yeah, and you feel like you've you've been with him. The settings change over time and but same guy and yeah, it's just, it's it's.

Speaker 2: 1:22:32

It makes me want to go re-watch the truman show, just to see, like what?

Speaker 3: 1:22:38

just to see what, what a life observed yeah, especially because that was really pre-intern, like pre-internet as we know it, that this came back to me, by the way, because I was like and that wasn't like a very profound point or anything. No, no, but it's. But this I just wanted. I think of this. I don't know why this guy's channel.

Speaker 2: 1:22:58

I'm sure there's plenty of channels that have done the same, but there's something fascinating about like this guy doesn't care, like, what happens in the traditional sense of why people make a show. Yeah, he, from what you can tell, he is just personally interested in documenting his life and again and not from, not from.

Speaker 2: 1:23:21

I'm gonna get attention like you can almost just feel it in the way that the videos come off of, just like he just enjoys this right and I think that's what happens with what we're making and again, not trying to be self-congratulatory oh, we're so great and groundbreaking and all this stuff, but it's literally like we don't give a shit if, ultimately, we have 600 subscribers in five years and there's something fascinating about.

Speaker 3: 1:23:45

I want to be the CC runner of podcasts.

Speaker 2: 1:23:47

Yeah, there's something fascinating to me about people who do something without what we expect traditionally as desired outcomes. We just want to talk to each other and document it, and if it doesn't go beyond that, there's no, whereas with my main channel there is an element of that, like I do want to gain element of exposure.

Speaker 3: 1:24:12

I want to gain subscribers. I want to earn more revenue and you can still go back and watch your older videos and it's interesting yeah, but it's not, as I could go back and watch Matt from that channel. Yeah. I'm not going to understand Matt from seven years ago, right the same way I would going back to watch him from like seven years ago.

Speaker 2: 1:24:32

But that's the other thing, too, is my channel. In 2018, when I started and I talk about that in my latest video it was how can I use YouTube and documenting what we do as a production company as a tool to make more business? Right, that's the Gary V. You know the whole thing right, and you know already had a like I like this. I like documenting. Right, and you know already had a like I like this. I like documenting things, you know, because because what's funny is and this is this is kind of coming full circle. I'm realizing this. I can go back to home videos of me filming me getting ready to go to college and filming stuff at college. You couldn't do anything with that back then.

Speaker 2: 1:25:13

I have vhs stuff of my classmates, but I'm talking to camera I'm basically vlogging right with a giant vhs camcorder and and, and what's interesting about watching it is there was no other desire but to just document life and to, and maybe to, to, to sort of like be the version of me that was there in front of a camera.

Speaker 3: 1:25:39

You know, like there's a little bit of like I like there was no expectation that that was, but it wasn't going to happen.

Speaker 2: 1:25:44

Nothing was going to happen with it, it was just going to go on my shelf. I couldn't, I couldn't digitize it.

Speaker 3: 1:25:57

I couldn't edit and I couldn't put it on the internet there was.

Speaker 2: 1:25:58

There was nowhere for it to go, but I still did it for a whole year. It's interesting to tie into, like the yes, the video quality here, because it kind of carries that spirit. Oh, it looks exactly the same of there's no reason.

Speaker 3: 1:26:05

Yeah, like I mean, now we do, we can put it up we can put it out there, but but it is.

Speaker 2: 1:26:13

Is that purity of intention? I don't know.

Speaker 3: 1:26:20

Like I want to say, is that the show, and I mean just in the sense of like, I think that's what's important about and this is this is the point I was trying to make a minute ago, when I completely had my brain shut off because I was trying to remember my semi-non-sequitur here. But I think the whole thing is just when the intention is, just when you just let it arise organically. Yeah. It's always going to be more interesting than if you try to build it.

Speaker 2: 1:26:59

Yeah, if you try to craft something, craft it.

Speaker 3: 1:27:02

craft something that and it's exactly what we talked about at the beginning of this episode, and we've talked about it on other episodes or before we went started rolling. We've talked about on other episodes like there's a limit to like the human intellect, yeah, and usually when you just embrace whatever is you know, call it the unconscious, subconscious, whatever just when you embrace that spirit or that energy, it's always going to be more interesting than if you try to completely just grind through it with intellect.

Speaker 2: 1:27:39

So let me ask you this then. This goes back to what I don't know if we were recording when we talked about this, but you talked about. We talked about like monetizing and ads or like you know, sort of a commerce aspect coming into this what we're doing. Can this what we're doing, can this what we're doing be corrupted? Would those forces?

Speaker 3: 1:27:59

corrupt it. I'm monetizing this thing as soon as I get a shot. You know what I mean. It's a paradox.

Speaker 2: 1:28:07

Like is there something that could happen? Because here's sometimes what happens with these collaborations right, a switch flips for one person in the equation where, oh yeah, we started this with this sort of like, innocent and pure intention to just document these conversations, but I saw a financial opportunity and I realized we were gaining this or had this or got attention or some show picked us up. These guys have been documenting their conversations for three years, blah, blah, and I see some opportunity for that and my intentions to sit down and talk to you switch yeah it switches from.

Speaker 2: 1:28:41

I just want to talk to my buddy, I think as soon, as soon as it is like, is it fucked then?

Speaker 3: 1:28:45

with yeah, 100 I mean like do I think? If we were likely if we were like oh, we're to start a Patreon or something that's less fucked, but as soon as we're not uploading this ourselves or as soon as we are like sponsored, brought to you by, it's fucked.

Speaker 2: 1:29:07

It's fucked right, it's done.

Speaker 3: 1:29:09

If there's listeners and they're like I'd love to support or like hey, this was really cool, and they're like I'd love to support, just, or like hey, this was really cool, right, that's one thing. That's one thing in my, in my head. I mean, I, obviously I'm, I'm not, I'm not trying to like force my opinion onto, onto what you I'm curious as to what you think, but in my head, like Matt and Alex's pot or studio sessions brought to you by state, Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly Like that's not a message from our sponsor, not what this is.

Speaker 2: 1:29:37

Right.

Speaker 3: 1:29:38

It's toast at that point. I know yeah. Like oh, you know, we would love to sign on as a sponsor and we'd like to sponsor two episodes a quarter. Right, it's done.

Speaker 2: 1:29:53

That's right. So yeah, I mean, or if it did, you know, we all of a sudden had 80,000 subscribers and even if we weren't doing sponsorships and all that stuff, what results in the world of putting what we're doing on YouTube? What results corrupt the purity of just two people sitting down to document conversation.

Speaker 3: 1:30:24

I don't think like. I mean, I'll be honest, we could have a hundred thousand subscribers right now and I wouldn't know, unless you told me. Like you know, I'll usually check the subscriber count and more, so lately I'll check it less, yeah, because we've had a couple of like bursts and so I'm like I don't really want to be involved in like, yeah, trying to.

Speaker 3: 1:30:46

So, like when I upload the podcast to you know, know, our feed, yeah, I'll check, I'll see it then and I'll be like, oh okay, month week, you know whatever, and I get an email about it every like month or whatever. Here's your monthly studio sessions report or whatever, and I'll see that. Um, I've checked the YouTube thing a couple of times this month or last month or whatever. So, yeah, we could have like a hundred thousand subscribers and like right and.

Speaker 2: 1:31:20

I still want to just like, like and so so that is not a force that would potentially corrupt the thing.

Speaker 3: 1:31:27

And my and on my side.

Speaker 2: 1:31:28

I don't know, maybe that's the thing Like so we watch, you, you watch or read you know a, a biopic about a band or, uh, you know someone you know. I just watched the Priscilla movie where, um, you know about, uh, priscilla Presley, yeah, priscilla Presley the up with Elvis in that film when he's already famous. You know he's, he's in the military and he's, uh, he's stationed in Germany and all that stuff. But you know, how did you know you?

Speaker 2: 1:32:00

You even saw the corrupting forces that you know that that impacted Elvis, um, the Colonel coming in and seeing how he could take what Elvis was doing and, um, turn it into a business and and really do some, some things to manipulate and control Elvis and all that stuff. You know, a person sets out to make music, to make music, and Elvis did it without this. Well, I'm going to use music to get famous. He wanted to make music and he got famous, and then, you know, things get turned. You know it turns into this machine. You know kurt cobain and you know you know so. So this, the me throwing these things out there is just sort of like. I think this the the question I'm getting at after all of this conversation is what forces and this is asking rhetorically. What forces end up corrupting those pure intentions when people set out to make something just because they want to make?

Speaker 3: 1:33:09

this thing. Well, the the other thing too is like I don't, I don't think this is really a format and or a like. There's so many things that kind of push against the idea that this thing would ever be some huge corrupting force. Yeah, like I just don't think there's a massive audience out there. No, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 1:33:34

It's not really wants right, yeah, and we're not which?

Speaker 3: 1:33:36

is, you know, you're almost, it's almost like you build in the the, you build in the restraint at the beginning, right, and just the way that it's just this is not going to be appealing to a large audience, right, most likely, yeah, and you know. So part of it's like yeah, you know, I don't know if we're gonna have to worry about a lot of that, because it's just the, the format itself kind of, yeah, prevents that from I mean, I would argue, anything's possible I, while I agree with you the likelihood of us being as big as all this, the likelihood of us being as big as all of us, the likelihood of us being as big as all of us is very

Speaker 3: 1:34:15

you know, obviously you know there's a part of both of us I'm sure that's like, oh man, well, wouldn't it be great if we could just do this? But then you know, it paid us each, you know, yeah, this was our salary, like this is all we had to do. But I think obviously there's a part of of of of that, to everything we do, which is a conversation of its own, a conversation we've had before.

Speaker 2: 1:34:38

So here's something that was interesting.

Speaker 2: 1:34:40

I watched the documentary on Elvis on Netflix about his 1968 comeback special, and the colonel's got his hands on it.

Speaker 2: 1:34:52

Elvis wants to do this comeback special and he sort of has this desire to get back to basics, right, and go back to singing some of the music that he had gotten away from and to sort of change the trajectory of his career.

Speaker 2: 1:35:12

And the colonel gets involved and he wants them to do all these dumb skits and sketches that are kind of reminiscent of all the kind of the dumb movies he was doing and and all of that stuff that and I say dumb as in elvis, you know got to the point where he thought they were all dumb and trash. But the colonel manipulated him and you have these contracts, you have to do them, and he didn't think he had a choice and elvis is just frustrated with all these sketches and all the rehearsals and all that stuff. And so in this downtime they're in the dressing room and he's got his old bandmates from like his early days of playing, you know, jailhouse rock and all that stuff, and when they're in the um dressing room they all have their instruments and they're just jamming, they're just playing, and he's playing gospel songs and he's playing with he is the pure.

Speaker 2: 1:36:00

And the director of the whole special comes in and he goes, he's like what the hell is this? And he's like this is the show and immediately wants to incorporate this and there's like a whole segment. I haven't watched the special, I can't wait to watch it, but there's a whole segment. It's just terrible. Where Elvis is sitting there with those bandmates, like making the shit up as they go. Yeah. Which is like right, Like television's worst nightmare.

Speaker 3: 1:36:27

Especially in 1968.

Speaker 2: 1:36:30

Like what do you mean? You guys are just going to sit around and figure it out. We can't do that. But it's everybody's favorite part of the whole show because it's pure and he stumbles, he messes up, he's nervous and talking to the audience, it's just wonderful, whereas they'll show footage of this dumb skits that the Colonel wanted them to do and you're just like this is such fake, artifice, bullshit and honestly it goes back a little bit, I think.

Speaker 3: 1:37:01

I think that's yeah, that's part of like this is.

Speaker 3: 1:37:05

It's like sometimes we're just not, like there's there's times in every you know we've we've gone through 40 conversations now and it's like sometimes you're tired, sometimes I'm tired, sometimes we're both tired, sometimes we're not you know as fired up, or sometimes we're super fired up, right, and that there's like the complete opposite energy, or like sometimes there's, you know, there's a moment of brain fog. You've got something else on your mind, like we've both been through situations where we our head is probably somewhere else, but then we're like still like all of those things you're not trying to cover any of that up and what seems like it might be a oh, this is a mistake, or this is a oh, this is a mistake, or this is a moment that needs to be edited out.

Speaker 3: 1:37:59

Right right right, it actually.

Speaker 2: 1:38:01

That's right, that's the most interesting. This part drags a little bit, or you guys don't?

Speaker 3: 1:38:06

It's the scratch on the record.

Speaker 2: 1:38:07

That's right.

Speaker 3: 1:38:08

And you're like, oh, wow, well, that scratch is actually the thing, the character of it all, yeah. Or the standard definition. You're like, well, wow, well, that scratch is actually the thing, the character of it all, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:38:14

Or the standard definition You're like. Well, we just need something that doesn't have a lot of data. Yeah. But then you realize the sort of roughness of it or the softness of it, especially some of these episodes, man.

Speaker 3: 1:38:29

When we are shooting, especially in the winter episodes, when it's dark early in the summer episodes, it's daylight. On most of them, everything's well lit. Right right, right. There are some of these where it's like the cameras are on the very edge. Everything's crackly and broken up.

Speaker 2: 1:38:46

So I think the thing that's interesting to me is and this is just like one-.

Speaker 3: 1:38:51

We're at an hour and 40, by the way. What to? Me is and this is this, is this, is this is just like we're at an hour and 40, by the way. So I don't know what we're cutting out, but a lot's going to have to get cut out, probably just to, or it doesn't or not, and this would be the longest episode, by like 20 minutes, though.

Speaker 2: 1:39:02

So who cares Right.

Speaker 3: 1:39:04

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:39:04

Maybe it doesn't matter. Anyway, uh you know, I I wonder too you know Elvis Kurt Cobain? You know, elvis Kurt Cobain? You know people that set out to make something with like from a place of real purity, and then other forces come into play of their choosing. You know they pushed in that direction, or it sort of happened to them.

Speaker 4: 1:39:35

I would, I would hope that we never got to a point with this where something happened and we went when we just used to sit in your apartment and we just just chopped it up yeah, how do we do that?

Speaker 2: 1:39:41

how do we get back to that? Is that possible? Yeah, you know what I mean I think we'll maybe.

Speaker 3: 1:39:47

You know everybody's like, oh, you don't feel it, and then, and then you know all of a sudden in a different place, yeah but I mean also, you know, you, you hope that you know the people that actually, like, there are some people that watch these pretty frequently. It's like, hopefully, those, those people hold, hold these to account, yeah, but then, um, yeah, who knows? I mean, that's kind of the thing, though, like there's no point in, yeah, pondering on, oh, what if this happens? And what if this happens, because it's like, well, right now, well, this is happening, this is it. There is no like, what if it's just, you know, what are we going to talk about next week? Yeah, um, I am interested, though we talked briefly about some of these channels and yes certain documentaries I there's.

Speaker 3: 1:40:33

I think I'm more familiar in the documentary space, but I'd love to see like if there's any channels that people watch that oh, yes, please I mean, we asked for, like podcast recommendations, but also if there's any like youtube channels, or some people host self-host on websites.

Speaker 2: 1:40:49

Yeah, there's any websites, or something, um yeah, where people are making something and it feels like and they've been doing it for a long. Yeah, doing it for a long time where you just feel like they're not trying to get famous or make money, Like they're just yeah they're just making something from a a a pure place or whatever. At least that's my personal. Yeah, I would just I'd love to just observe something.

Speaker 3: 1:41:12

Like you know, there's different communities where this is definitely present yeah, um but yeah, I mean I I can think of yeah, a couple. There's this one, one guy who's I used to watch. I think he made. He just makes like madden videos yeah and I don't. I don't even have a console or anything. I haven't played Madden in years, yeah, but I used to watch his videos when I was younger and he's been making Madden videos for like 12 years and I think he gets like 10 views a video maybe. You know what would be cool.

Speaker 3: 1:41:49

I mean I literally think he's got. I mean he's probably got like 4,000 subs or something. But I mean literally, I literally think he's got. I mean he's probably, he's probably got like 4,000 subs or something, but I mean literally, I think he gets like five, 10 views a video. Okay, like very low, but I see him pop up, he releases videos every week. He's never stopped for you know, a decade plus, so maybe that's. How cool is that?

Speaker 3: 1:42:12

Like he's, he's just like putting them out there to like, yeah, I know it's just amazing, like that's that, I don't know, that's exciting. That's. That's the part of the internet where I'm just I'm like man, there's still something very cool here, no matter how corrupted it gets, and that's kind of the original spirit of the internet.

Speaker 2: 1:42:31

So really cool that one comment you talked about earlier. You know, like you guys are, whatever I didn't mean to to respond to that and like like that's not.

Speaker 3: 1:42:39

I wasn't responding in a negative way, like obviously I appreciate.

Speaker 2: 1:42:42

No, no, no, he's willing to interact and.

Speaker 3: 1:42:45

I just I wanted to recontextualize kind of what we're.

Speaker 2: 1:42:48

And so what I'm getting at is that guy's comment was like blah, blah, blah, you guys should make a movie together, just pitching this, you know, and not you know who knows what it will be. What, if that's one of the things that we're supposed to make, is we go to these corners of the Internet where people have been uploading videos for 12 years, even if there's only nine views of video, and we just why do you do this? Talk to them about.

Speaker 3: 1:43:11

Yeah, where it. Just why do you do this? Talk to them about, yeah, where it comes from that'd be a fun.

Speaker 3: 1:43:16

You know we've always talked about doing like extra episodes or something or like how to incorporate or something that would be a fun way to incorporate that because that is something I would like to do yep uh, maybe, maybe it's not a guest or I don't know how we would do that, but yeah, I would love to to, to. To extend the wonder, the wondering just to be like why are you doing this To other people?

Speaker 2: 1:43:32

yeah, we're wondering what's all behind this and we just want to hear from you, like, what's the deal?

Speaker 3: 1:43:38

But not in a disrespectful like.

Speaker 2: 1:43:41

you have to tell them no no, no, no, no, you don't want to be like, yeah, it's not good it's.

Speaker 2: 1:43:50

You know, I don't know there's a little bit of like maybe there's a shared experience there with the purity of intentionality behind sitting down and just making something because you want to and you're not thinking about traditional results or they're not getting them. Which YouTube gurus would look at your channel and tell you everything you're doing wrong to not have a million this and all this shit. But we don't want you to do that. So why are you doing this? And not because we don't think you should be or that it doesn't make sense that you are. We have an idea, not that we're on rails or anything, but we have some, some, some insights as to why maybe you are. But we want to hear it from you. Is that? Do you even know?

Speaker 3: 1:44:47

yeah, I don't even think about it, I just I think it's so easy to you know, we have these forms of media that it's easy to kind of contextualize things into the show. Yeah, one of them, the film, the novel the short story, the blog, the post, yeah, the vlog.

Speaker 3: 1:45:06

Now there's just all of these kind of. I think there's something that maybe isn't as obvious, but it's just like I don't. I don't really know what I'm trying to say here, but there's just this like essence to whenever I talk about early internet or like the spirit of the internet like that.

Speaker 3: 1:45:33

that's you know the part, the part of me that geeks out over that stuff. This is what I'm talking about. It's like these small communities, or these small. I used to love Reddit. It's absolutely just deteriorated now, but I used to love it when it was like these small little.

Speaker 4: 1:45:54

And it's not like oh well, then it got popular and it got lame.

Speaker 3: 1:45:57

That's not what I'm saying.

Speaker 2: 1:45:58

But it lost, it got, did it get commercial? It got corrupted? Yeah, but this is what I'm talking about.

Speaker 3: 1:46:03

And not because it got big, because it changed its approach to things.

Speaker 2: 1:46:09

That approach that's right it. It perhaps went from something not like a declared mission, but sort of a purity of intention yeah to. Well, hey, this is something, now the same thing, you know, I mean it's like it. The first thing I thought of was, uh, you know, a social network with, uh, facebook. You know they're sort of like. You know that thing was crafted not because, well, I have a business plan yeah it was.

Speaker 2: 1:46:34

It came from, from an interesting place. You know, obviously the movie's dramatizing something. That may not be true, but, um, at least the way it was dramatized was an interesting place. And then, you know, you get that line from the the one guy like, well, we don't know what this is yet, so the one kid wants to bring in advertising. The other one doesn't know yet. You know what what I mean. And then it turns into this whole other thing, right, but what you're saying is and I'm is. That part, though the early part, is interesting.

Speaker 3: 1:47:02

It's almost its own subgenre in all of these things.

Speaker 2: 1:47:05

Yes.

Speaker 3: 1:47:07

Where it's just, regardless of the medium. It's just this I don't think size is necessarily a determinant either. No, no examples of this where the people are incredibly successful, or you know completely the opposite so I'm not saying like it has to be some small, but yeah there's, it's like a purity metric or like it's. It's its own genre, almost of all of these things where it's just like well, there's, there's other corrupted, and there's other corrupting.

Speaker 2: 1:47:34

There's covering for corrupting forces besides just sort of commerce or getting big right, like, like having attention or fame, um, uh, being able to monetize something, seeing like. Oh well, actually facebook isn't a like, a sort of a way for us to connect with people on college campuses. It's a way to uh, to uh get everybody on college campuses. It's a way to get everybody's personal information and advertise to them in a better way. It changed its identity right and not to make this about Facebook. But there's musicians or other people that make stuff and maybe their insecurity is corrupting. I'm not saying our um exploration of changing the look of the channel came from, uh, insecurity, but you could argue that that even having a thought of changing it is is a little bit of a corrupt, a corruption of what it is. Like hey, don't change you. Like what you have is good, like it's just leave it like don't fuck with it.

Speaker 2: 1:48:31

So what force? And that's why I asked what do you think the force was that made you get inspired or decide to even whip something up? Was it the excitement that the tools are so readily available and interesting to use, that we can whip up a whole new brand using AI tools and the stuff that we had going on, and that the seduction of that was the corrupting force in changing it? You didn't stop to think whether or not you should.

Speaker 4: 1:49:01

Whether you should, yeah, whether or not we actually should Right Get so caught up in the fact that we could. Yeah, you know so, these forces, it's funny there's this Buddhist concept that I actually wrote.

Speaker 3: 1:49:12

I made this note today. Yeah, it's called the five hindrances and yeah, it's like forces that get you to which didn't. This is not planned, absolutely not, but it all connects. So, like there's five hindrances and you know, I think it's. This is the traditional five. I'm not completely well-versed, obviously, in what these are. I just made this note. But it's desire and craving aversion, dullness, restlessness and doubt and doubt, yeah, so insecurity.

Speaker 2: 1:49:52

Now, this is what that this is. This is what the show is about, this show. This show is about these conversations connecting. You had this in your phone. You didn't think twice about how this might relate to what we're making here changing the brand, any of that shit. Right, you can see the connection once we talk about it, but and that's the stuff that's exciting is you have these conversations from what you're reading, what you're watching, what you're talking about, what you wrote down in the notes app, and you start seeing all the connective tissue between them, and that is that is as good as it gets, my opinion.

Speaker 1: 1:50:33

It had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summits.