Studio Sessions
Discussions about art and the creative process. New episodes every other week.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
Studio Sessions
46. Creative Obligation & Reciprocity: The Debt of Inspiration
In this episode, we discuss the responsibility artists feel to give back through their work after being influenced by others. We share stories of stepping outside our comfort zones—including a chance encounter with a silversmith in Badlands National Park—and how these experiences fuel creativity. We explore the tension between control and surrender in the creative process and examine why modern comforts often distance us from making meaningful work.
We look at what makes creative output timeless and how to connect with deeper truths in our art. Drawing from road trips, travel literature, and photography experiences, we consider the difference between talking about creating versus actually creating something authentic. The conversation challenges us to move beyond comfortable routines and safe creative choices to produce work that resonates on a deeper level and contributes something valuable to the ongoing creative dialogue. - Ai
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
And it had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer.
Speaker 2:This is the year of like travel books man.
Speaker 1:Oh McMurtry, huh.
Speaker 2:This is the year of.
Speaker 1:The American Walk Book.
Speaker 2:I don't know why I came upon these Natural walking trails from New england to the pacific coast. That's cool found that one at jackson street last weekend.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what did you say right before that?
Speaker 2:I don't know what this is like the year of travel books. You said I don't know. I don't know what has caused this yeah, I was watching something because I've just kind of stumbled upon um, rings of saturn, um, yeah, obviously, yeah, roads. I'm reading something right now that I'm just Rings of Saturn, obviously, yeah, rhodes. I'm reading something right now that I'm just about finished with Invisible Cities. Just a lot of books about places and movement.
Speaker 1:You said something and it was like I forget how you said it, but it made me think of this YouTube video I was watching. This guy was going through his jazz records and he pulled out a record and told a little story about it, which was you know, this guy has a huge collection. He's like I've had this record for like 43 years and I just listened to it the for the first time recently and he said some of the effect of like um, you know, music finds you when you need it.
Speaker 1:you know, like, these things find you versus oh yeah you know like it was like for the 43 years you had this record sitting on a shelf not one minute up until when you first chose to listen to. It was the right time to listen to it yeah, it happened when it needed to happen.
Speaker 2:I love that stuff no, I, I absolutely agree. I think, um yeah, things just kind of find you at the right time, and especially I feel that way with books and usually film too I think movies, yeah, absolutely, um yeah you kind of always. You're always paving the road for what's gonna come. I don't know it's road metaphor roads.
Speaker 2:But watching now you would make a record you just, you're always kind of, yeah, you're, you're setting the foundation for what's gonna come at some point. You know it'll find you at the right time. You might seem like you're doing something aimless for months and months, and months, and maybe this is just the human tendency to build a narrative around you know what what has happened, in order to kind of better understand it. But I think, yeah, you're kind of always late, like planting the seeds for the future. But yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 1:Have you read Lonesome Dove?
Speaker 2:I haven't read it, I've watched it. I mean it's one of my favorite, and then he also did. I mean he's done Comanche Moon Right. I mean there's, he has a lot of probably well-known works, but he also did Last Picture Show.
Speaker 1:Last Picture Show. I was just going to say that Great, yeah, fantastic movie Peter Bogdanovich.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah and so this is interesting. It's very literary. I'm about halfway through it. I just got the physical copy because I was halfway through it on the Kindle, and so this is he's driving the highways, so he's not. He's not driving highways, though it's like interstate highways, right, just interstates. And so he, he's just doing, he's like, okay, I'm going to do these interstates, and he's he'll reflect on. Yeah, I remember when they first put this in, talking about the only way to get across the country and, yep, it's really interesting.
Speaker 2:He talks like he'll go through states and he'll be like this was the only great artist from this place. And some interesting commentary on the midwest too. Um, that we might get to later, and I think maybe um could inform a project that you and I were talking about. But then you know, like he talks about any writer, from the most obscure to the most well-known, he'll talk about these highly obscure, like you can't find any of their books still in publication to like Faulkner, it's really interesting stuff um and I'm reading a road book too right now.
Speaker 1:So it's yeah, so I actually.
Speaker 2:I put on the road, uh, in my pile. Yeah, because I was. I was like, I mean, I. I think the last time I read that book was in high school. Oh wow, so it. So it's been a while.
Speaker 1:It's been a while and sadly, I had never read it, so I'm reading it for the first time.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean like read that book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I'm sure it was, I'm sure it.
Speaker 2:You know it all comes back around. I've always been like, you know, adventurous and whatever. But but you know, not that you know not taking anything away from my high school self, but I just a lot of things that I'll rediscover, that I'm like, oh yeah, I totally missed out on this. Or like there was like maybe there is like a level of subtlety that was kind of lost on me at that time or whatever. So I figured it was a good addition to the road. I've also, yeah, Rings of Saturn's in there.
Speaker 1:Who wrote?
Speaker 2:that Rings of Saturn. Yeah, I don't know. Wg Sebald I don't know that book, so that one has been on my list for like six years, yeah, and I finally picked it up. And then I've got the Inferno or, um yeah, the divine comedy. I guess. Um, which is, I guess, in its way of travel road, um, and then, yeah, I've got, I've picked up a couple of other um books that he referenced in here.
Speaker 2:Yeah about, so I don't, I'm just leaning into it you know, I'm just gonna see where it goes, and but all of these books have like a different quality to it. So I also have, um, yeah, just yeah, a lot of things. It's funny because there was like there was a different kind of emerging force from a lot of these things and then it converged with, like road travel books. So I, I don't know where we might be in the middle of it, it might converge into something else by the end of the year.
Speaker 2:But I'm just kind of going where my interests yep present themselves. And you know we'll look back on it and try to make make sense of it at the end of the year. But but yeah, it's interesting. I mean I started this like two days ago. I'm like halfway through with it and it's super. I didn't like it came out of left field, didn't know this book existed. I didn't know it existed, didn't know it existed, I've never seen it out there.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm not staring at bookshelves and I haven't seen that one. Yeah, so I feel like there's another larry mcmurtry book that I picked up. I'll have to double check. I've got a pretty. This is just really big pile. What drew me to this was, uh, like the drawings yeah it's awesome are beautiful. I mean, it's just a really nicely put together book too. So it's the american walk book. So I don't know. We might try to do some of these yeah that's great.
Speaker 1:Do some of these, and I don't know well, you guys are road equipped and you just came back from the road, so, uh, I would not be surprised trying to get more road, yeah I would. I, I'm right, I smell what you're cooking buddy studio sessions on the road. Yeah, on the road Could be. Could be interesting to do Studio sessions on the bike. Oh my gosh, we get some good Coms yeah. Oh gosh, wow. I got a lot of work to do, buddy, I got a lot of work to do.
Speaker 2:Hold on, hold on, we record it Split screen it yeah or no. We could just use autopilot. So we literally here's what we do we start at the same time and whenever you're talking or I'm talking, we switch to that pov shot from the helmet cam no, that could be cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, some gopros or those insta cameras like a little pendant, yeah, and of course you know you need motorcycles, so we're working on that, we're working on if anybody, if anybody listening to this has a motorcycle connection. Yeah, uh, I am definitely I'm emotionally all in on the idea. I just have to do all the practical, pragmatic, sad stuff to actually make it happen, unless, of course, you're able to get partnered up with somebody that sponsored it or something like that.
Speaker 2:We have a trip in mind. Yeah, I just presented it. I act like we've been talking about this forever. I literally just dropped this on Matt.
Speaker 1:But you're not at all far off of what I was thinking about. That's exactly what I was thinking was to go up north and west as the first thing.
Speaker 2:I think it would be a beautiful first trip.
Speaker 1:And I know that I would, and it's like something happens, god forbid we can make our way back home with a cab or whatever.
Speaker 2:We're not in California or something Right, you're not up in Alaska. I don't know. That trip might have to wait until the girls are grown.
Speaker 1:They'll be grown by the time we get back from it. We can do that highway.
Speaker 2:You know the highway up yeah.
Speaker 1:That's pretty well known a lot of bikers out there yeah.
Speaker 2:So what do we? I did want to tell a story, please, um. So you hinted at it a little bit. Yo, I like a good hint. We were, um, yeah, we were out, we were traveling. A couple of weeks ago we went to the bad Badlands and just explored South Dakota a little bit and then spent some time in the National Park, spent a couple nights there and then worked our way back down and came through the Sandhills of Nebraska, which are absolutely gorgeous. Valentine, really cool little town. There's a great park there and we were in. Sorry if I adjust, I'm uncomfortable for some reason.
Speaker 1:Yeah, can you get there? It's been a while we haven't done this in a little bit. Flip the chair around.
Speaker 2:So, for those that are listening, I'm pointing to a piece of silver on my wrist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I noticed that. Did I tell you about this? Okay, well, so this is wrist I noticed that.
Speaker 2:Did I tell you about this?
Speaker 2:Okay Well, so this is perfect, I'll just share it with you, and then I'll share it with the um, so we get to the national park on Saturday and so we pull in um I don't know my East West and the other park, but I think, yeah, it's like the, the farther end of the park. But I think, yeah, it's like the, the farther end of the park less so, like the notch trail is on one side of the park, like that's the really well-known trail, and there's like the Badlands, like Badlands is a type of landscape, yeah, and so it's really prominent on one side and then it kind of mellows out and it's it's still prominent, but there there's, you know, more buffalo, or not buffalo, but bison, yeah, um, and you know there's more wildlife, a little bit more greenery and rolling hills, but there's also still some of the badland landscape, um, but we, we kind of found ourselves on that side of the park and really enjoyed it and there's a campsite out there and it's kind of like wild camping. You can just pull up Backcountry or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, backcountry camping.
Speaker 2:And it's like a proper campsite, but you know there's no hookups or there's no electricity or water or anything like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not really, but no, yeah, we pulled up there and we parked the RV and um, or the the camper, um, and then took off and explored the park for a little bit throughout the day.
Speaker 2:And then we get back and, um, we're going for a run and we run by this guy who's camping in his truck and he's probably, I would say, like late 60s, early 70s. We later found out, yeah, he's like late 60s and he was camping in his truck and had a really cool setup. We were just like, oh, like we noticed it and we're like, oh, that's awesome, pointed out a setup a couple of times as we were like driving through back and forth and, um, uh, finished up running and just started. We were like, oh, we'll walk maggie around because we, you know, we needed to walk her and walked over by the truck and he started making conversation. He was like walking down from the hill and, uh, hit cane, like a really cool cane, wood carved, beautiful cane. And so we started making conversation and talked for about 10 minutes and you know he was like, oh, this is interesting about the park and this is interesting and just you know, light conversation.
Speaker 2:His name was Kent and really interesting guy. And so you know, we made five, 10 minutes of conversation. His name was Kent and, um, really interesting guy. And so you know we made five, 10 minutes of conversation. We go back to, to go to sleep, and you know who knows that's that. We're like, hey, will we see tomorrow? And he's like, yeah, I'll be here for a little bit in the morning. Uh, the following day was going to be Easter Sunday, so I was like, yeah, I'll be here in the morning for a little bit. And then his plan was to go out.
Speaker 2:So the next morning we get up and we go for a run and, um, you know, we're, we're gone for like an hour and a half, whatever. We get back and he's still there and so you know, I like grab some coffee and walk, just walk over to to his truck and I'm like hey, like like how are you Just wanted to come say hi? And you know we strike up a conversation again and I'm still in running clothes from the run, hadn't like done whatever. And yeah, we just get to talking and you know we talked about this and that, whatever. Just uh, life, what brings you here? You know what? What do you? You know where are you going next? Where, yada, yada, yada, and find out he's a, he's a silversmith, and so and he, he like has a rig that he travels in his truck with him. So like, yeah, I mean his setup was sweet, like he had this, you know, obviously like sleeping bed, and then like the back here is a closet, not super refined, not like one of these like, but highly utilitarian yeah, beautiful, very functional
Speaker 2:yeah, and I mean it was, he had stickers all over the side. It was awesome. And so, yeah, we talked for like an hour and a half or an hour or so and, yeah, find out, he's a silversmith. And he so, out of nowhere, he's like you want to make something. And he was showing us his jewelry the whole time, by the way, and it's really interesting. And he's like he's like, yeah, I'm just, you know, I'm making my story and then I I wear it, I capture it and then I I put these pieces on.
Speaker 2:I was like, wow, there's something really beautiful that there. Yeah, and um, yeah, he had all these, all these custom bracelets and things like that. And he's like some of my sell, some of my keep, and I mean they're very intricate, like very thoughtful narrative jewelry pieces, like crazy stuff. And he's like, yeah, you want to make something. And I was like I thought, and he's like I'm just gonna be hanging out for the day. He thought he was gonna go and explore, but he's like it's easter, like not a lot's open. Yeah, I'm just gonna be hanging out, you want to make something.
Speaker 2:And I was like sure, so he breaks out this solid block of silver and so right there you can see, there's his brand yeah and there's uh, because it's real, it's uh solid sterling, and so he breaks out this chunk of silver and this anvil yeah and these hammers and I spent the next six hours sitting on the back of this truck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a hell of a process, man.
Speaker 2:I mean, you're literally all of this is just like wow. I mean thousands and thousands of hammers, so I spent the next six hours hanging out with this guy on Easter Sunday that's crazy In the middle of Badlands National Park. I've never silversmithed before.
Speaker 2:No, I know, and he national park I've never silversmith before, no, I think, and he was just teaching me as, as I went along and this thing was I mean, this was a solid, this was a chunk of silver, yeah, like a silver bar, and, yes, slowly worked it into this bracelet and then polished it and I'll probably never take it off that's I probably will not, and I was.
Speaker 2:You know we had some stuff that kind of came up in our lives you know, in the last week or so, and I look at this every day, and so I used to have like Memento Mori on my phone, you know, and this is a Memento Mori, that's so cool.
Speaker 2:Like, every time I look at this, I'm like man, like it's just the experience of making this, the experience of meeting him, the experience, I mean, it was so human and beautiful and real. And he was, you know, when we were talking after, and he's like and I have a picture, I have a portrait of him and got a couple and we were talking after, though, and he's like he showed me this video. So he makes YouTube videos occasionally of his travels and he's like I was filming a video up on that mountain when you guys pulled in and he's like I pointed you out in the video. For some reason, he's like you're the only people that pulled in and he was like and I just knew that I needed to teach you, and he went on.
Speaker 2:And he was like and I just knew that I needed to teach you and like went on. He's like I believe in this kind of thing. And he was like a, like a, a freemason, and had like freemason, some freemason, but this wasn't at all like, like, yeah, I mean super normal dude yep yep and um, but he's like I believe in this thing. And then he goes on.
Speaker 2:He describes essentially like synchronicity yeah and you know obviously different words, whatever, but I but I mean it was I was like, yeah, that's, that's literally this concept that I I you know very much believe in of synchronicity. And, um, he's like I just something told me that I needed to teach you how to do this. I don't know if you're going to make jewelry or what it is, but he's like I needed to teach, I needed to show you this. And every time I look at this it just kind of reminds me, like you know, I mean, yes, everything's impermanent, and just you got to focus on like I don't know man, it's crazy powerful.
Speaker 1:So I got three things I need to just points I need to make.
Speaker 2:Come out. Yeah, I don't want to forget them.
Speaker 1:I was going to write them down. So three things. First of all, totally like thought about what you talked about making that uh bracelet, although it took you longer than it did me. When I was in Poland, we went to a farm and we got to make uh, these little flutes out of uh a portion of a tree branch, like these traditional Polish flutes, and they teach you how to do it.
Speaker 1:You carve the bark off, you form it, you hollow it out, you put the little deal on that makes the air go through it, so you can make it, and it was just like it wasn't six hours. It was probably about 30 minutes to an hour. And it was just this.
Speaker 2:I like I'm here in poland, yeah, and I'm making a flute out of this and you, just you, have to give yourself up to the like you are not amazing there's no. It was so beautiful because I you just totally immerse yourself in the process you give yourself up to what's happening. There's no. Oh, we're trying to get out of here Like no this is a beautiful thing that another person is sharing with me. That like transcends, like even just our time here.
Speaker 2:Well, and I you just give into that and you give into that process and you just live in that moment. And I mean the six hours I it could have been five minutes for all, I care Like it was the same. It was just this beautiful experience, you know, sharing with another human. It's like this deep connection with somebody who you've never met. You didn't know this person 24 hours ago and who knows if I'll ever you know see him again person 24 hours ago and who knows if I'll ever, you know, see the see him again.
Speaker 1:And I think this goes into the second thing I wanted to say, which is just the the lure of the road and you're reading a road book. I've been, you know, looking at, uh, road trip stuff and having, you know, I've done road trips before living in Los Angeles, coming back to Omaha, but it's always like be lining it. You're not actually stopping, you're not, you know, improvising along the way. I was just in Vegas for NAB and hung out with my friends and felt like I came away with a lot of rich experiences and met interesting people and cool stories and we went to a ghost town and we, you know all this stuff right. Same thing with Poland. Or you know, my wife and kids going up to Okoboji and stopping at all these different places along the way, different cities and towns.
Speaker 1:You know one of the things that contributed to my sort of midlife crisis with overhauling my studio and all this stuff. You know I've talked about this before kind of looking up and feeling like I've sat at a desk for 12 hours a day for the last 15, 20 years and I've missed out on all these incredible potential experiences of meeting people, being on the road, having adventures, dealing with discomfort, things not going as planned, and then when you sit around the campfire, us our candle and scotch, or with friends, you've got all these stories to tell. When you live a life like that and I'm like, what stories do I have to tell from sitting at my computer, writing, editing whatever, and while I don't not want to do those things, the imbalance is so severe and has been so severe that I sit there and go and I don't think I did.
Speaker 1:But I'm like, did I waste a good chunk of my prime youth, especially before kids, when it was easier to do this stuff? Um, sitting at a desk hoping I'd get to that place where I could do all those things, only to realize you, just, you have to just do it, you have to, you have to make it a part of your life right now, not not toil away at the computer hoping it's gonna just happen later on when things clear up. Yeah, but yeah, the road books, the trail, you guys getting the camper and going out to the Badlands. My wife's going to Colorado with your dad tomorrow wanting to take the kids places. Us talking about the motorcycle, watching Jason's videos on grainy days, uh, I mean, it is just a big part of my, of my psyche right now, all of that desire for discomfort, adventure, spontaneity, um, you know, just feeling alive out there and meeting people like this, that I mean just.
Speaker 1:I mean how incredible you'll never you'll never part with that Unreal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I haven't taken it off my. I mean yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and I'm wearing my piece of jewelry repairs.
Speaker 2:I've taken showers with it, I've been to the sauna with it. I've run of it. It's only been a couple weeks.
Speaker 1:And I have my ring from the woman I bought some records off of and it wasn't a trip like yours and she was a medium. She opened up to me and told me about her abilities and all that stuff and I just was sort of like, all right, let's go with this whatever.
Speaker 1:And then he said do you want to make something? He talked about having whatever feeling he had when he saw you guys pull in. She told me how she felt about me when I pulled in and then she went and got this ring box and said these are from Hawaii and I'm being told that you need to have it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it was a crazy important experience too in the aspect of just walk over, have a conversation with people Like we're all human.
Speaker 2:Like he initiated a conversation talking about bison and coyotes. Like we talked about bison and coyotes for 15 minutes that first night and then, yeah, you know, learned a little bit about the jewelry and then that led to like a really special connection the next day. Yeah, just because of like, oh, small talk about bison and coyotes, you know, you got to open up yourself to the world a little bit. I feel like to let those experiences come in. Um, one thing I'll say when you were talking about you're like, yeah, opening yourself up to the world or to the road or whatever, and being able to bring those stories back to the campfire.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The quote unquote campfire, and I mean, this is our camp. That was kind of that's a big reason.
Speaker 1:We have the candle. Yes.
Speaker 2:I mean it's also a way for us to connect. But yeah, I think that has a lot to do with it. Then you mentioned writing. Yeah, and I think it's funny to have the expert, and I mean I mentioned this in a couple episodes ago as well, but you have to get out and experience the world to be able to come back and distill that into some sort of observation, or yeah, or you know, I mean you can do cultural commentary, but that stuff is so it's, it's so quick to dissipate and it's irrelevant before. I mean, a lot of that stuff is irrelevant before our time is even past much less anything.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I mean anything that stems from culture is probably not going to.
Speaker 1:but you know it's an interesting time capsule, but it's not.
Speaker 2:It's an interesting time capsule.
Speaker 1:It's not something that you know I picked up on the road, how many years after it was published and you know, and fully enjoying the read and it obviously it's a window into a world.
Speaker 1:You know, that's, that's gone now, but there's obviously all the connections that you can make to, uh, our, our, you know, the current human experience and everything that we're going through as individuals. So, yeah, being able to take all of those experiences from your own travels, your own adventures, your own misadventures, the people that you meet, the relationships that you have, all of that stuff and translate it into new work, whether it's a song, poetry, a movie script, a novel, you know, whatever, whatever form it's in, um, and I feel like, yeah, I, I, absolutely, I just that that has to be a bigger ingredient in my, in my world, just as someone who wants to have deeper, more meaningful experiences, but then also, to, you know, take those experiences and put them into the work, especially, you know, photography, which has I constantly think of the Elia Kazan quote where it's like a director has to feel, you know, feel the river on his feet and has to, you know feel the plains, the wind that blows, you know just, you have to experience life, you have to be in life.
Speaker 2:life, you have to be in life, you have to be, in the world if you're going to attempt to distill anything out of anything.
Speaker 2:And it's so odd, too sorry, I didn't mean to, it's just so odd how we've created an environment where it's completely possible to sterilize yourself for your entire existence from, like the whatever that is, whatever goes beyond that layer of fabrication right. You can completely separate yourself from that for your entire life. It's possible now. Yeah, we've created that, we've managed to make, and to a point where that seems like the anomaly instead of this right, which that's, not, that's. This is the only time in the history of the world that you could say that, yeah, I think not this, I'm not complaining. You have options, right, and I tell this to Audrey all the time Like I want to feel, I want to be as much of a part of that. I want, I want to be a part of that whatever that deeper thing is. I want to completely just surround myself and let that kind of consume me, at least now, at least at this point in my life. But I enjoy some of the creature comforts that are offered by the other I think it's like I, you know it's.
Speaker 2:It is a bit of a of a paradox, like there's, both things are true. I, I, I can sit here and complain about how I this is so terrible and like I can't believe is the state, but then I can be like, but I like getting bagels on Saturday.
Speaker 1:No, yeah, I don't think there's anything. We live in a major city.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not like the biggest city, but we live in a major city.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, farmer's market's tomorrow. It's nice to go down there. Get some green onions and some fresh tomatoes, get a new basil plant, grab something at the deli.
Speaker 2:Go to the record shop. Go to the record shop, hit up the bookstore.
Speaker 1:I love all that stuff Go watch movies in public. I want more of a mixture, a mélange if you will of on-the-road experiences. Yeah, I took French for six years Of those road experiences. Yeah, I took French for six years Of those road experiences and adventures.
Speaker 2:Un peu franco.
Speaker 1:Je parle français un petit peu. Non, non, non.
Speaker 2:Non, non, non non non.
Speaker 1:You know I want the mixture of those. Again, I just have given too much time and attention to building things digitally and again, I count. You know screenwriting, you know stuff that I did at a computer, even if I was at a typewriter all day. You know, I still sort of consider that very similar.
Speaker 1:And while that stuff was productive and I've earned income off of it and have been very grateful for all of that, I think just my experience as a person and what I learned from life and the universe and other people, and all of that suffers because I'm not out there experiencing it. And even just getting back to third places, talking to people at the coffee shop, making connections at record shop, going to estate sales, the richness that I have in my life, just from the people that I've met there, even if it doesn't translate to let's go get coffee or let's go do something together it doesn't need to, it's just coffee. Or let's go do something together, it doesn't need to. Um, it's just great to to connect with people on that level, including your experience with this, with this guy, um at the park and and and the experiences I've had with those things, um, in the things that I've done which makes me think.
Speaker 1:I don't want to spend any time on this, but when I was in Las.
Speaker 1:Vegas. We went to this ghost town, my buddy Brandon and I, and then with these other YouTubers that are, you know, bigger and more prominent, and you know I watched their videos and I'm not like, oh my gosh, there's this person or there's that YouTuber. But you experience two bouts of introversion. I say bout like it's a bad thing. You experience times where you feel like your truth is being introverted or sort of not antisocial, but just not extroverted and talking to people. But something about this connection with this person brought that out.
Speaker 1:You ended up spending six plus hours, even if you were making something and not engaged in constant extroverted conversation. You didn't, um, you know, you didn't kind of shell up, turtle up and and avoid it. And in this situation, at this ghost town like this is what you've been waiting for, you want to like. You got in the truck, you drove, like this is what you've been waiting for. You got in the truck, you drove out there, you're with all these interesting people with stories and backgrounds and whatever, and I just completely locked up, yeah, and just went inside. You know I was making a video for my photography channel, so I was focusing on photos and video. That was sort of my little. You know how people like at a party and they don't have anybody around to talk go on their phone as like a safe place, like that was my thing to do to feel a little bit safer, and I, you know, missed out on.
Speaker 1:You know, I think my problem is in that situation is I'm like, okay, these people are farther along in their content creator, artistic journey, because a lot of them do things with client work, personal professional work and YouTube as well, and I don't want me asking them questions or talking to them to come across as you don't want to be seen as a type of person, or I don't want them to think across as you didn't want to be seen as like a type of person or like I, I don't want them to think like I have an angle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know like I'm worried that they think. Well, like am I gonna want to partner up and do something on their channel? Am I gonna ask them for something? You know what I mean, like I'm so insecure or worried about them it's interesting because it's such a goofy thing.
Speaker 2:I know it's so dumb, like the idea of how they create more content for brands or like.
Speaker 1:Well, just like they're more successful like they're yeah they're more popular. If you will, it's like.
Speaker 2:It's like you're the the freshman it's just such a silly high school like the cool seniors are there and you're like well if I talk to them, they're gonna think I I'm trying to well the high school thing is great. That's a good metaphor, because you look back on 90% of the stuff you did in high school and you're like how fucking stupid, was that?
Speaker 1:and the stuff you didn't do like. Talk to girls if there's people listening in high school.
Speaker 2:This isn't negative, but this is just a fact of life. You're going gonna look back and you just see things from a oh man. There were a lot of socially engineered games that were being played that were completely pointless, right, and we still play those games as adults. They just look a little different and most people don't even realize they're playing those games as adults yeah but I mean, yeah, it's like that was totally you.
Speaker 1:You got like caught in like yeah in a game, and then what's funny is, uh, when I came back, which is bizarre, yeah there was, um, uh, I was there, not at nab, but I was um, connected with bnh, the, the, you know the, the video camera store from New York that has a pretty big website that sells stuff to filmmakers and whatnot, and they had a big party and so a lot of the people that I was at that ghost town with were there, and then other people, and then the switch completely flipped and then I was like full extrovert, confident, yeah, talking, chatting up, like I was actually trying to like help the people that I was not wasn't afraid to talk to, but I was just sort of withdrawn from at the ghost town.
Speaker 1:But at the party I'm like I can see that they've now introverted, yeah, and I'm, you know, I'm just talking to them, you know, and and maybe making them hopefully feel a little bit more comfortable because they're tired or they're ready to be done, or they've been talking to so many strangers because they're more well-known, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's just completely—. It's interesting because you sent me that video yesterday which is similar.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, the one on Jung.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but just kind of the more general idea of you know you're perceiving your world to be a certain way.
Speaker 1:Well, and all of that stuff being a reflection of what's going, on. So you know, I look at that, you know situation that goes down and I'm just like you are someone that is insecure. You know, maybe you think you should be somewhere with what you're capable of, but you're not and you're around people that are farther along than you are, even though they have their own issues and setbacks and things that I wish they had done differently.
Speaker 1:All the same stuff as you, but you let that perception of it dictate your behavior and, like that in that video talks about shifting your perception. Your perception, um, you know. And then the the the thumbnail says you know something like don't give a shit anymore, or whatever it's like in that situation. If I could go back, just like you're saying about, like high school, like in college, I wish I could go back and just not give a shit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just don't care. Well, what would you? What would you be like and what would you do? Um, under those circumstances, like in college, I wish I could go back and just not give a shit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just don't care what people think.
Speaker 1:What would you be like and what would you do under those circumstances? Before we go down any talk of that, though, and not to cut this off, you said that the gentleman said he saw you guys pulling in and some kind of connection or whatever. I just started a new podcast, podcast, and this sounds a little. When I tell you the title of it, it's gonna sound like oh boy, um, I gotta, I gotta, look it up see what matt's podcast rotation is these days so, um, it's called the telepathy tapes, with kai dickens unveiling the hidden world of telepathic communication in a silenced community, interesting.
Speaker 1:So telepathy is a word that I think you know. We think about ghosts, we think about you know, supernatural stuff that is kind of out there. Really, what it's about is it's about shared consciousness. It's not about telepathy, like I'm going to move this book on the table.
Speaker 2:It's about we spent half an hour talking about energy right Like yeah. Picking up energy off of people in situations yes.
Speaker 1:Before we started recording. Yes, exactly, and when you, when you mentioned that this guy felt some kind of connection, when you guys pulled into the park and then you ended up spending six hours with him and it all sort of just materialized, it made me think of this podcast and and thinking that there's a sensitivity that we all have, to varying degrees, about our connections with other people and the energy that we share back and forth. How many times have I, like, told you, when you call me, I'm like I literally was just thinking about you and you called me within seconds.
Speaker 1:So it's stuff along those lines that I think all of us, whether we are open or not to this idea of telepathy, which, again, I don't think it's a good word.
Speaker 2:It's a good word. It's not a good word to describe this Like we're all. We all have some sort of connected energy, which but is getting harder to actually deny.
Speaker 1:But what's interesting about this podcast and I'd be- you know I'm curious to continue to explore.
Speaker 1:It was recommended to me by a friend. Non-verbal autistic kids in this podcast will be in a room and their mother is in another room and they set up this little test Because the parents have reached out to these people to just get a better understanding of what's happening. But the mother will have an ipad with a random word generator and the mother will read the word to herself, see what the word is, and then the non-verbal autistic child, who's in a completely other room and can't see the ipad, will spell out the word that the mom read.
Speaker 2:Interesting yeah.
Speaker 1:There's a story that's coming up about a nonverbal, autistic child who knows the entire Harry Potter story. Never read it, but learned it because while their sister was reading it, they were absorbing it while the sister read it. Yeah, like crazy stuff like that.
Speaker 2:No, I mean you that they?
Speaker 1:that sounds like telepathy, right, like what? What card am I holding? You can't see it Guess what. It is like a very um, light form of telepathy. But what really made me turn the corner with that podcast and you know again it it connects back to what you said about what the gentleman said when he saw you pulling in is this idea of shared consciousness.
Speaker 1:And like a young was right now, yeah, and so yesterday's video that I sent you, combined with this, the things that you know we've talked about to a certain extent on this podcast, and then just these general sensations, feelings. We made up the word parame about my experience in Los Angeles and it being very haunting and strange and surreal, and I feel like another version of myself and another dimension is existing there and I'm right next to it, Like all that weird stuff.
Speaker 2:So it's just interesting to continue to develop and explore these frameworks for these feelings, powerful feelings, vibes, whatever you want to call it. Do you think it's happening with autistic children? Maybe?
Speaker 1:because they're more similar to how someone who's deaf or someone who's blind, Tightened senses yeah, Maybe there's a heightened Right.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm fascinated. I've seen, you know you see different clips of people communicating essentially fluently, but they're both speaking different languages. You know, I've seen that before.
Speaker 1:There's a viral.
Speaker 2:You see, mother or I'm sure you experienced this with the girls, where they're talking but they're not like it's nonsense. And to anybody outside of you know, your family group it would be nonsense. But you become so attuned that you can almost have a fluent conversation with a three-year-old and it's utter phonetic nonsense.
Speaker 1:Goldie was nonverbal. My youngest daughter was nonverbal to the point where we had to get a speech therapist to come in, because we understood everything she wanted without her having to say anything.
Speaker 2:And I don't mean like it was like telepathy. I wasn't like reading her mind, no, no, but I mean, it's probably a similar sensation, it's just and so she didn't have a need to develop speaking because she all her needs were met yeah they're like you know.
Speaker 1:The speech pathologist literally said you guys are too good at knowing what she needs without her having to say anything.
Speaker 2:Ignore your daughter.
Speaker 1:You have to let her say it because she's not going to develop speech because she doesn't need to. There was a viral video of these two adult, identical, twin women who are being interviewed for like a news segment and they literally talk at the same time.
Speaker 1:yeah, like it's not like this, perfect yeah like mind meld where they're, but they, they, they finish that like it's weird, it's a, it's a. When I read the article, I was expecting one thing and how they actually spoke and it was a little different than what I was expecting. But they're like we can't not do this.
Speaker 1:We speak together with everything we do, and that, to me, is another sort of reflection of a shared consciousness, especially identical twins that are in the womb together. All of that. And this thing is really fascinating, just the different things that these nonverbal, autistic kids are able to do with siblings, parents, um, and, and I, like the one kid, the mom had watched a movie, and the kid knew what the whole movie was and had never seen it, uh, in in person. Like the mom watched it in another room in the house, uh, anyway. So so it resonates with me because, you know, we, we all have these experiences where we feel drawn to someone, um, there's something sort of inexplicable about the connection.
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, just all of that stuff I mean, you've talked about joseph campbell before, but then I mean jung, probably the, the forbearer of a lot of these ideas. Um, yeah, I mean I think there's, I think there's something. I think there's something, I think there's something to that in a way that a lot of people don't really comprehend right now. And then but I also think like tying everything together. You know there's a lot of cultural noise that almost hides that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And like when we, when you've talked about in past episodes the source, yeah, yeah, rick Rubens, and I mean the source, I the source. Yeah, yeah, rick Rubens, and I mean I think the source is the collective unconscious.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's all that, yeah.
Speaker 2:And it ties into creating timeless work, if you can tap into that well metaphor.
Speaker 1:Channel something out of it.
Speaker 2:You're pulling from that and, yes, you're a conduit, and I mean that's how I think about creativity. It's not you creating your conduit for some idea that's floating and you're pulling it down, but, um, I think about the collective unconscious and trying to almost purify your, your, your signal, you know your receiver to signal ratio where you can actually pick up on it. Because I think we, you know, getting back to what I was saying earlier where we've created a world like an artificial layer on the outside, where you can go your whole life without connecting and I think a lot of people do like it ties into that. That too, like, yes, you know, I can describe it as like a level of humanity or whatever, but it's also something that's attuned with that collective unconscious, something that's attuned with, kind of the energies that guide, the forces that guide us that we might not see or understand. Um, and I think when you start to strip away a lot of the unnecessary trivial things that bombard us on a day-to-day basis, you get to something that is in touch with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, that's one of the biggest reasons. Yeah, I mean, I make a lot of, I've made a lot of decisions in my life on that idea and it's curious because I have a. I wanted to ask, like you were talking about creating work and I think I've asked you this on past episodes but I'm interested to see where your headspace is at now. Do you feel like you've ever created something that is timeless or that steps out of that'll outlast you?
Speaker 2:It's just something I've been thinking about a lot, not in a not an egotistical way but, you know we've, we've been, I mean I've, I've had a lot of, like you know, eyeopening things over the last couple of years and you've you've had a lot of eyeopening things as well throughout your life. And I think you know, when you see some of these things and you, you start to especially if you interface with things that are older than your immediate you know scope of vision you can start to feel some things.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And yeah, do you, do you feel like you've created, like, not that that should be the goal and again, not an egotistical way, but approaching that in a way of what are we doing? Like?
Speaker 2:you know, yes, there's something to the act of creation that I think is therapeutic and beautiful, but also, you know you should be striving to create. Maybe you shouldn't be striving to, but I think it's a noble goal to to want to create something that outlives you or that taps into a truth that kind of goes beyond what your consciousness can, can, replicate. Yeah, do you? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I feel like I, you know, have have apologies for the crazy. No, no, it's great.
Speaker 2:Um, I, I mean, I feel like I, you know, have.
Speaker 1:Apologies for the crazy just word following. Yeah, no, no, it's great. I've had those things throughout my you know, throughout what I've pursued. I feel like you know I can look back through everything that I've tried to make from sort sort of um, uh, like these. These are my experiences in the world and my connection to source, and I want to take all of that and translate it into something a performance, a photograph, a script, a story, whatever it is, a script, a story, whatever it is, um, and I've done those things along the way and felt, um, you know, powerful connection with another actor, um, a real sort of truth and purity and something that uh, that happened after surrendering to the making of the thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just the truth in the moment, yeah, just the truth in the moment. And you know something where, obviously, like it wasn't presented to the entire world like in a movie or a play, but you know the people in the room might remember it, and that's not. Matt was so amazing when he did this thing. It could have been a scene with other my fellow actors or a monologue I did. But you know I, I had some early experiences with that feeling the, the flow, the conduit, um, nature of it. Uh, and again, the, the, the, the relief that you get, I think, psychologically and emotionally, when you actually surrender to something. You stop giving a shit, you stop trying to control it, you stop just trying to manufacture something.
Speaker 2:It's kind of just the definition of conduit, right, there is no, there's no pretext to be like if you're gonna be a right, yeah, you're gonna just be a vessel then, you have to kind of and I have a couple screenplays that I you know, and it doesn't mean that they're good or like in a traditional like.
Speaker 1:If I entered it into the Nickel Fellowship and everybody would agree that this is, you know, both well-crafted and something special because of the surrender that comes off the page, but then also the, the truth and purity of it, the conduit to the source, if you will, um, but I've written stuff where I didn't give a shit about like, like, like the bullshit rules, like, well, it has to be 105 pages long, you have to have an inciting incident at page 12. You know, like, like all this kind of stuff. But, you know, still wanted to embrace the craft of storytelling. You know whether it was, you know, three or four-act structure that we might have seen in movies from the 40s or 50s, all the way to you know what's more commonly. You know three-act structure, but not so far as to like the formulaic save-the-cat stuff where you're hitting all these markers at certain points.
Speaker 2:I think there's like a metaphysical, like a reality to storytelling, yeah, but yeah, there's also. Then there's like the commercial save the cat, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, it's like what Bruce Springsteen says uh, you know, like you've got the one side of a 45, you know, like you have a container One side of a 45, you know, like you have a container, you have a form, you have a construct that you adhere to.
Speaker 2:There's only so much you can do, and that's almost a blessing.
Speaker 1:Right. Exactly that to me is the way that I feel, surrendered and connected all at the same time to just be out in the world observing what's happening and to have a camera ready to go to capture a moment of truth and purity and whatever that I that I see, whether it's in inanimate objects and light, or it's in something human that's happening on a street, or the expression a person has on their face, or the the pattern of colors. Like how the hell are all of these colors red and yellow, like in a perfect line in this alley? You know, in the scene that I'm seeing, you know all that stuff.
Speaker 2:I think there's. I just want to cut in for a second because it just connects to a quote I was reading in the Photographer's Eye by John Tchaikovsky. Yeah, and there's this quote that the eye sees a perception, the camera sees the truth, and that you can revisit. I read this earlier, like this morning, but it's just this idea that you might be seeing something through the viewfinder of the camera with your perception. Yeah, but whatever is captured in the camera is, in a way, it's a truth that you can return to at any time and then that'll teach you. That's going to teach you something that you may have not known when you took the picture. It's going to transcend the perception. So it's just a beautiful connection to kind of what you just said. You're out there and you're just observing. I mean, the camera is the perfect conduit in a way.
Speaker 2:I mean you can try to contextualize an image, or you can try to create false context within an image, but the most you're going to do is push, kick that can down the road.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, and of all the you know work that I've made, whether it's a screenplay, a poem you know, if I took everything that I've ever made, even like you know, uh, a performance in a play or whatever, if I took everything that I ever made and had to sort of engravitate it to to one area of what I've made that to me is most connected, to source and the conduit and all that. It would have to be the photography work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's not only. It's so interesting too, cause that's so late, incredibly late, yeah.
Speaker 1:But again, I've been an observer of this stuff my whole life and when it was writing or acting it was always taking the constant observation and mapping and energy perception and all that of everything going on, whether it was inanimate objects, the beauty like see how the light and the thing and the whatever. I just never thought 15 years ago like I can take pictures of these things and make work.
Speaker 2:You're mapping it, you're creating it psychologically Right.
Speaker 1:But I store it as an image that's going to go into a screenplay or it's going to be the opening lines in a short story where I'm setting up the space that the characters are living in. Are you filtering it through yourself at that point, the space that the that the characters, uh, are living in?
Speaker 2:you know, so I would. I would. Are you filtering it through yourself at that point?
Speaker 1:I mean, I think always um it's yeah, well, and and you're, and you're, and you're, um, you're, you're, absorbing all of that, and then it's there, in this collection of things that you have, and then something happens where you have a question or something to say, and you know what form it's going to be in, and especially me, predominantly being a writer, in all of my artistic pursuits, after acting school and before now um, you, you look at that collection of things and then you, you harvest it for use in the asking of the question or the saying of the thing, and I don't mean the lesson you're trying to teach the people who read your thing, the you know the didactic nature of it, but just how you've translated, how you've, you know how you're translating your experience of life through these stories. The thing that I like about photography is, for me, it's incredibly instinctual and it's immediate. You don't have time to think about it.
Speaker 2:There is no translation. I mean, you can translate how?
Speaker 1:you decide to interpret about it.
Speaker 2:There is no translation. That I mean. I mean there, you can. You can translate how?
Speaker 1:you decide to interpret.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean there is a translate like yes, if you know, if you take a picture of, well, of two separate subjects to create a new idea, or if you're, if you're linking ideas.
Speaker 1:But it's this hyper-focused process, in a sense, that you know I'm observing things and collecting things constantly throughout the day, throughout the weeks, throughout the year, right, and then you're soaking it all up, you're thinking of it this way, you're thinking of it that way, you're bending it, you're breaking it and you're you know you over a long period of time, you're translating it into a written, subconsciously, mostly subconsciously, but then you know, stuff bubbles up that you put on the page or you put into a scene between the actors or whatever. With photography, I go out onto the street and I am taking it all in, you see it all in. You see it and in an instant you react to it. The decisive moment, right, and you don't have time to be reflective about it, to edit it in the moment, and I don't mean the photo, I mean edit the moment.
Speaker 1:Well, maybe that's not quite aligned. You're like something just happened, or, if you're really good, you can feel it swelling up and you, the cameras, ready when it happens, versus what happens to me a lot, and that's this is part of the craft and I'm I'm like convincing myself it's not going to happen and I missed the photo, instead of like a full surrender to it, to where you, you don't even think about it. You just take the photo and and then you know the sensor or the film and the lens allows for your composition of it, exposure. You know the craft of the image and I love the condensed and hyper-focused, concentrated nature of that. I want to not think as much. I overcomplicate everything. I'm too cerebral and get in the way. With photography, I get to be instinctual. Is that a word? Instinctual? Instinctive, yeah, I get to operate in that plane, which, for me again, is someone who has You're completely subconscious for me again as someone who has dealt with control and just all that dumb stuff.
Speaker 1:it's just a great way to surrender and just let it happen. And then, you know, I can sometimes look at the photograph and see things in it that I didn't see in the moment being in the real world, that I didn't see in the moment being in the real world, and I start connecting it to things that I'm experiencing in life or questions that I have or things I have to say. Especially when you're sequencing the photos, you're like I'm sensing a connection here. Why am I taking photos of all these kids that are on the fringes of these parades? Why does that speak to me? What is going on there that resonates with me?
Speaker 1:So it not only is a way to be introspective and wonder things about yourself and how. It's a reflection of what's going on with you, but also a reflection of how you observe the world and the things that you sense about it, that you notice about it that either interest you or sadden you or give you great joy or whatever. Or to me sometimes it's just like how the hell did these three things come together right there? Did you see that? I took a picture of it?
Speaker 2:I don't necessarily think that's unique to photography, because I do think what you're talking about can occur in writing, or it can absolutely a hundred percent you know, in film or music especially like all of these things. But I do think photography tends to put that front and center a little bit more yeah maybe you can. It's really hard to get you can. It's really hard to get there in writing.
Speaker 1:It's really hard to get there. I get in the way too much. Yeah, I just get in the way, um, and I feel like with photography I don't have a chance to to get in the way and mess it up. Yeah, I mean I do, cause I I won't. I'll be like no, it's not, that's not gonna happen, shit the kid just did, I missed it when it's interesting too.
Speaker 2:you talked about, yeah, you'll, you know you'll learn these. Your photographs will teach you these things. Yeah, yeah, getting back, you know that that quote of it is the truth. Whether you like it or not, like, at some point it's going to teach you something that you may have not even been contending with in the moment. Yeah, or at least it has that potential, which is you know again, you can. Writing has that potential, right, music has that potential, but a lot, of, a lot of you know writing or music or even photography that we see doesn't have that potential, that potential has been co-opted by something else.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I do think, I don't know, maybe photography stumbles upon that a little more frequently.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Maybe it just increases the surface area for something like that to occur.
Speaker 1:Well, it's just when I've been out taking photos and I have plenty of times where I go out and I and I, you know, don't feel like a lot happens, or, you know, I I get very much. And then there's other times where and these are in some of my photography videos on my second channel, but I'll be, I'll be out, having taken photos all evening. And in one one video that I made, there was an older gentleman sitting on a bench and here in Dundee and he was sketching a scene. I'm like I've literally never been out in Omaha and seen somebody just like sketching this sunsetty scene in in Dundee. And I asked him is it okay if I get video of you doing this?
Speaker 1:And I just, you know, set up a couple different shots because in my photography videos I have photos and videos, because it's called photo videos. So I'm just like, how amazing is this that I met this guy who's a sketch artist or artist or whatever, asked him some questions, similar to this gentleman who's a silversmith, and I got to just have this moment of documentation of him doing this as this little coda to the video. And I was in chicago last summer and I came up on a scene of this guy trying to resuscitate a old, sick pigeon bizarre.
Speaker 1:And I'm like, just like the guy, the sketch artist, I'm like I'm going to film this and I had my little black magic pocket camera and I just documented him trying to, like you have this pigeon drink water out of a coke can and like all this stuff that he was doing. It was just fascinating to me and I'm just like what an interesting choice for you to make on this hot ass July day is to be out here in this planter helping a bird that is obviously old and not going to make it very much longer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but stripping, stripping away all of that, like what a beautiful, just image, what a beautiful, beautiful. It's a whole little metaphor. What a video.
Speaker 1:Yeah and I'm just, I'm like, I just I'm like. This is why I want to be out in the world making stuff, because I want to come across these moments, in these scenes, and obviously I've had some scary run-ins as well but, it's gonna happen.
Speaker 1:But but you know, I I feel more connected, um more alive out there doing those things and making that work than I do sitting at the desk, where I feel like, yeah, I'm connected to my friends and my audience through my channel and all that, but I've never felt more disconnected because it's a magic rectangle and a bunch of machinery, versus a guy at Badlands that lets me craft a silver bracelet that I'm going to wear for the rest of my life for six hours.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think you're talking about the guy resuscitating the pigeon. You talking about the guy resuscitating the pigeon really just puts it into a beautiful perspective of when you think about and maybe this is just me, but when I think about the world today, in a lot of ways it feels less interesting, at least the world that I'm exposed to on a regular basis. People seem less interesting, situations seem less interesting. The metaphors and the language we use is kind of dull. It's just been dulled by repeated use, it's been exhausted in a lot of ways, and humanity or these unique situations help us refresh our metaphors. It helps us refresh our, our language and I think you know we've just been beating away at that for two, three decades, four decades, whatever. And yeah, I think you know, if you want any chance at creating anything interesting, you've gotta find language, find metaphors that aren't dull. Yeah, and you know, yeah, find the guy resuscitating the pigeon fascinating oh yeah, interesting, you know, makes me think, make something.
Speaker 2:I'm like wow, I don't think I've seen that one before no interest, like can't probably not going to come up with that and no, just, you know, I don't know. Yeah, I, I think that's really important, especially in in our current where we are in, in our in the world right now, just in in terms of, you know, contending with ai or like figuring out what makes us unique as as human and also just figuring out what makes interesting or worthwhile art or work or whatever you want to call it. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I have a, if I have a clear you know period to put on that.
Speaker 1:But Well, you had asked too, like you know, I think part of that, what I talked about, was spurred because you said um you know, just do you feel like you've yeah?
Speaker 1:I mean, I I was just thinking while you said that, especially based on that video I sent you yesterday about not giving a shit. I think about that moment with that guy and I me filming them with my little black magic camera, and I think about the sketch artist on the bench. Or I think about some of the photographs from those videos, or the photographs I've taken just since I started, you know, going hard on photography and I just go there's, you know, 10, 15, 20 photos or moments that are on video that I just 10, 15, 20 photos or moments that are on video that I just, I just love what's there, and part of that's connected to my memory of the actual experience of it.
Speaker 1:You know a photographer, somebody at the Museum of Modern Art who you know curates photography for the museum might look at every photo I've ever taken that I think is amazing and go, eh, and I just sit there and go, you know, not like it's for me, like in an ego way, but I just go, I just love it so much Like in the end, you know, while it would be amazing to have a, you know, someone want to put up a gallery of your work, or they want to print your stuff in a book, all that stuff, it's worth it for me not only to have the experience of trying to get into source, trying to get into the truth and purity, of just being out there translating your experience into a, you know, an art form, a piece of work, just looking through what I've made and going.
Speaker 1:I really like this. Yeah, I have this one photo of the like four girls that were up on the parking garage when we were just starting to do like those photo walks. And you know I could show that to anybody like, oh that's interesting. And I just look at it and go, I just love that photo. I love the energy from those girls that she's sitting on the edge of the parking garage and if she makes one wrong step she's going to fall off and die.
Speaker 1:I mean she was two or three stories up sitting there smoking a cigarette with her legs over the edge you know all those little ingredients being out there with you, the connection, all that stuff and I just go yeah, this, this is. This is an all timer for me in the body of work that I've made and I don't give a shit what anyone else thinks. I like it. Um and I think that's the last thing I'll say about the photography stuff is, I certainly have screenplays that I've written where I'm like, yeah, maybe it's not the best, the most well-told story, or it's overly complicated or whatever it is, but I'm like this is the movie I want to see.
Speaker 1:And if nobody else wants to, fine, but I made it and the screenplay to fine, but I made it and the screenplay and I like it, I enjoy it. Yeah, and I say all that, I would never let how I like it make me not give a shit about the craft of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to Go deeper on that for just a second. Yeah, I'm interested to see what you.
Speaker 1:I think sometimes for me it's easy to go well, these were my impulses, this is what I felt like making, and because it came from that place of of impulse and channeling, of some connection to source, let's say that is what makes it good. Yeah, and I tend to be someone that is not as diligent about the craft aspect of it and improving how well made it is. Yeah, I'm really good at just going. I feel these things, I'm going to put it out there.
Speaker 1:But then how do you actually, like we've talked about before, how do you sort of have audience objectivity to go, but is this communicating well? Is this reading?
Speaker 2:right Is this strip to strip away?
Speaker 1:the context that you're taking for granted, or refine the your subjective point of view of it and and have a way to to look at it objectively, to bring the craft aspect of it to bear. Yeah, yeah, I get too caught up in the, the emotion of making it, and that sometimes tricks me into thinking therefore, it's good. Yeah, so you know. You know, when it comes to photography, it's I mean, it's everything. It's, it's sensing when something's going to happen and being ready at the decisive moment to capture it. But when you do, to know how you want to frame it, to know what your focal length is, to know what your depth of field is, to know, yeah, you know what the conditions are to have your exposure triangle correct and the editing process.
Speaker 2:I mean everything. You know, printing the photos, sequencing them, all of that stuff, and then getting to a point, too, where you are so at peace with those things that it starts to disappear.
Speaker 1:Right yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the mastery on the other side of craft or whatever, yeah.
Speaker 1:And you don't want to not give a shit at the expense of craft. Yeah, yeah, you know, like you know, think it, feel it, make it, send it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's watch that cycle and I do think the emotion, though, is more important. Like, like and, yes, I would take that over the. I think the craft is necessary, but you do have a lot of very fine craftsmen who are not making, who have work, that is. Maybe it's not moving or doing, causing any kind of beneficial reflection? Yeah, yeah, so yeah, I think the emotion is probably, but the craft is then. And when you get both, then that's when that's when the magic starts to elevate itself. Yeah, I think it's interesting.
Speaker 2:Just I don't, I don't really want the last word, cause you kind of wrapped it up well, um, but I know we're we're close to time, but yeah, I just the reason that I asked that question, just to give a little bit of of background, is I told you a few weeks ago, we, we sat down and we recorded an episode and we, we sat and we chatted a little after and I was just like, yeah, I just really. I feel like I have really gotten to a point where I just I'm sick of just the, the trivial day to day stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like, just like, there's just a lot of nonsense and I'm just like I just don't want to interface with that stuff anymore. I just want to really focus on doing and pursuing things that again that are that are going to kind of outlive me. Yeah, and I don't mean that, and maybe I do. I don't think I mean that in an egotistical way, though, or in a way that's self-serving, but just in a way that is. That's the stuff that's interesting to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know I'm talking about the rings of Saturn, or the divine comedy, or you know Swan's way, or I mean a lot, of, a lot of stuff. I read and just revisiting a lot of these Herzog films over the last year and I mean these, I'm just listing off things that have been, front of mind, influencing- me and they're not dealing with subject matter that's going to change in the next hundred years, probably not the next thousand years.
Speaker 2:They're dealing with subject matter. That's just rich. I want to work in that area and so I'm trying to move in that direction. I'm trying to make a very intentional shift towards that, but I don't know you can hold me accountable on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:People you know other other people can, but no, and I know what you're talking about too, because it's hard to articulate, because it's so easy for us to think that the primary motivator is ego and our immortality, where our work lives beyond our own life. And for me it's, you know, as someone who observes and absorbs and soaks up everything around me, trying to see little moments of truth or purity or profoundness or beauty, magic, love, all of that. You know, I'm often sort of like in a full heart from taking those things in and there is a desire, having received those gifts, to give back to it by making something that is an offering to the altar of truth or the altar of source or something.
Speaker 2:It's not even like a desire, it's more like an obligation.
Speaker 1:It's like if you take two pennies at least put one penny back. That's right.
Speaker 2:It's this reciprocity I've taken like a hundred pennies at this point. I need to put a penny back.
Speaker 1:That's right. That's exactly it. There's sort of like a good indebtedness that you feel and you want to share what you can do back to it. And it's also, having taken in incredible work from other people, from, you know, alex Sothe, the stuff that we have at the Jocelyn Art Museum, the stuff that we've seen from our friends who make great work, everything that just the desire to contribute to that giving of those experiences to other people. I just feel like I get so much from this stuff, this hard work that people do to make things, whether again, it's on the one spectrum, content or stuff that's a little bit more like social commentary or whatever, but all the way to the other side, which is just, you know, pure artistic expression for lack of a better term but just something that's true and pure. You know, I just want to be a part of that because, again, I've I've taken and gained so much from it. Yeah, yeah, so it it's, yeah, it's just the desire to participate in it but not to to make me the exalted one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, you know, looking down on everyone for having been, you know, having made these things, it's one of the like I'm almost.
Speaker 2:I'm happy to make that contribution in silence.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I just feel the need to make that contribution, not even the need. I almost just feel that obligation.
Speaker 1:That's right yeah, yeah, obligation is a good word for it to make that contribution. A responsibility, a calling.
Speaker 2:It's very clear. Yeah, I mean, it's just the only thing that. I mean it's the only consistent force, I guess. Yeah, but yeah.
Speaker 1:And I would say, you know, if you're able to have the clarity of what of that feeling, that my hope would be, and this isn't because I think things are interfering for you personally, but anybody is to let any concerns about how it might appear when you make what you want to make. I'm worried people are going to think this is egotistical. I'm worried they're going to think this is, um, self-serving or you know whatever.
Speaker 2:uh, to try not to give a shit about what it might look like, and if you know it's to contribute to that, but then also making sure it's not, I guess, is an aspect of it, cause you know, we can sit here all day and be like like, oh, I know, I don't mean this in a in an egotistical way, or in a in a self-serving or, and then, at the same time, it's not to say that we are, you know, free of that desire. Yeah, so that is absolutely something that I think both of us contend with.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'd say 99.9% of people probably contend with that and so yeah, having the clarity and just the stamina and the ability to keep that out of the process, even though it's going to fight to, to kind of make its way into the process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the thing that we've talked about this before. My weakness in that is having raw emotion and like putting it out there immediately. You know this thing happened. I'm going to go live on Instagram and talk about it, not not because I think that that's art, but because, um, you know, these tools are there so that you know when I have a big feeling and I want to share that feeling or that thought or that reaction in its raw, untranslated state. That for me, typically, is coming from a place of ego or attention, things like that, when I go out and take photographs, which is why I like doing it so much.
Speaker 2:none of that shit enters my mind, it's just what am I doing right at this moment?
Speaker 1:Yeah, how do I stay open to the things that develop in front of me? That are the things I've been watching my whole life Moments of truth, of beauty, of purity, of of well I mean it's like a good conversation.
Speaker 2:It's the same kind of you're just there, you're okay, I don't know what's going to come next, but then I'm going to figure out what that is. I'm going to react to that accordingly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, versus, every time you talk, my eyes glass over, yeah, and I try to, you know, steer the conversation into ways that only benefit me. Yeah, um, yeah. I want this advice, I want this help, I want you to hear what I have to say. A very one-sided self-centered um self-centered dumping.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, and I've been in those interactions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I've been on both sides of those interactions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've been on both sides of those interactions?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Same here, yeah, and I've definitely learned how to do that, and it's the same thing with the work that we make. Yeah, you learn how to have a conversation where you're not so consumed with yourself and what you're getting. From that conversation you learned those people stop talking to you and if you do that with the work as well, nobody cares and it doesn't go anywhere. It had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer.
