Studio Sessions
Discussions about art and the creative process. New episodes every other week.
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Studio Sessions
47. Escape Velocity: The Quest For Autonomy in Art
We examine the tension between creative expression and commercial necessity in the digital age. We explore how the pursuit of expensive camera gear and equipment can become a substitute for actual creative work, and discuss the corrupting influence of affiliate marketing and sponsorships on genuine artistic curation. The conversation moves toward the concept of "escape velocity" - finding ways to separate commercial considerations from the creative process through patronage models, financial independence, or simply refocusing on experience over acquisition.
We reflect on how social media and internet culture have shifted focus from seeking meaningful experiences to collecting objects, and consider whether it's possible to maintain authentic creative practice while still earning a living from content creation. We discuss the appeal of older, non-commercial equipment and the challenge of building genuine audience relationships in an increasingly commercialized creative landscape. -Ai
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
And it had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summons. But there's something in me that's like that's in a fun way, not like a competitive, like screw you guys with your fancy Leica cameras. Let me show you what I can get with these, these cheap like um forgotten about Leicas but there is.
Speaker 2:There is some elements of that. I've seen plenty of shitty photography come from Leica.
Speaker 1:Oh sure, sure I think I'm just sort of emboldened to say well, what you know, what can I, what can I squeeze out of some of these um less desirable, like a camera systems, um and uh, and and see what you can get and and also appreciate some of the the design work that went into it. You know, the V Lux is essentially a Panasonic camera with like a stuff on it, but the D Lux too, that I have, you know, while I think it has the base architecture of whatever the equivalent Panasonic Lumix Digicam was like, the whole thing has a lot of Leica design cues on it, from how the lens cover works to shifting aspect ratios with a slide button a slide dial on the lens of the camera.
Speaker 1:So just some really interesting things on a camera that came out in 2005. I mean, this is early days of digital compact cameras.
Speaker 2:Best days of design, though, in terms of pure industrial design for that.
Speaker 1:I just look at it and I'm like God they did this in 2005?. I mean, there's cameras I have from like 2015,. 2016, compact digicams that don't even come close to those features, um, and obviously price point like I can charge more so they can do more of that kind of stuff. But yeah, so it's interesting to to get these cheap, cheap cameras and see what they can do.
Speaker 2:But at some point.
Speaker 1:you know I want to, you know, still tinker with those, but I want to kind of find my, you know my ideal digital camera, which, at least right now, my mind would be towards a leica m9, um, to be making work with uh, and then, of course, my f1 for uh, any slr, non-street, non-street type photography, yeah.
Speaker 2:What do you? So this is, yeah, this is like relatively new. Um, when you brought up the M11, I was. I was a little bit like oh yeah. Okay, Cause you haven't really.
Speaker 1:you've always been like satellite interested, but I think it's just additional touch points. You know, there's there's probably a little bit of like sort of FOMO or feeling like you're on the outside looking into you know, like a family of people who have, you know, an M10 or an M11 or you know, have continued to consume that content because of my interest in photography and learning about the camera systems and and really street photography in general. That you know, that you know it's just what, it's what the culture does to you. It just kind of keeps tapping you on the shoulder, going, hey, what about? What about this?
Speaker 1:What about this. Or and then the the ugly side of it, which is you are on the outside looking in right now. Yeah, and um, and while I don't think I fully succumb to that, it does. It does bubble up from time to time and and occupy a little bit of the subconscious surface area of my of my mind and and comes out.
Speaker 1:In situations like that, yeah, where I mention it, I think too, there's just a general longing for settling into a camera system to make work yeah as opposed to a lot of the fun and experimentation that's going on with my second channel, the photography channel, and seeing what a Canon digicam can do or a Fuji digicam or whatever. That's a lot of fun and, while I think I could pull some images out, missing the, the quality of image, uh, the clarity of image, um, to feel like I'm really, uh, I really have an image that, uh, that that that holds up over time as a, as a piece of work.
Speaker 2:There is something about just knowing the camera, just like, oh, if I'm shooting, it's going to be on A or B.
Speaker 1:That's right, yeah.
Speaker 2:And yeah, that was always something that really attracted me, more so than searching around. I mean, I obviously went through my phase where I bought a shit ton of cameras, but the goal was to get to that right. It always it's. I I'm really impressed whenever people there's a lot of youtubers especially who can just shoot with like 20 different cameras yeah, and I get it like the novelty of trying something new every time I understand, but to me it's just like.
Speaker 2:I don't know how much I care about the photos either, though, so I don't know if it's like oh man, you're wasting the work, but there is something where I'm just like oh, just set up. I, I think going back to a conversation we had, probably a year ago just the, the um, the um, provenance of an object Right, right that's, that's what kind of gets me excited too, is being able to link Right, you know I mean at this point, half a decade of work to one singular camera body is just really cool.
Speaker 2:I think that's part of it's like amazing to me.
Speaker 1:I think that's part of a part of mentioning an M11 as well. You know I'm watching the Leica 100 year event and you know it's all centered around their flagship store in New York. There's a you know, the part of me that's a dreamer and fantasizes about stuff is how cool would it be to take a trip to New York and buy your first like real deal Leica at that store. And then you know that's part of its provenance. Moving forward, you know wherever that camera ends up going five, 10, 15, 20, 25 years from now, or it gets passed down to one of my kids if they're really into it. Yeah, that's exciting to me and it's something that you know. Like we talked about in previous episodes about um. You know luxury, what was it that like luxury? And it was some quote you mentioned about um. You know luxury, what was it that like luxury? And it was some quote you mentioned about um like luxury is having the ability to age.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like something with. It was something about time and it was a really a really uh, a really cool way to articulate the deeper meaning of what the idea of like a luxury, A true luxury item.
Speaker 2:not a luxury item in terms of public relations or whatever, but a luxury item in terms of what makes something, what elevates something, is having the ability to take on patina over time without losing its function.
Speaker 2:So I mean, just in that statement alone you have some inherent truth. It has to have a function that it can serve. It has to. I guess in my mind it has to serve that function elegantly. I guess it. Maybe it doesn't have to, but it also has to be able to like what gives it significance is the stories that go into it. I mean that gives anything significance. But what gives any object significance? I mean, we talked about the marketing of a lot of these cameras, where they'll go to these exotic places. All that, in my mind, all that is doing is expediting or attempting to expedite the process of giving an object a myth. I think it's much more effective when you can do that.
Speaker 2:Personally, yeah it's your personal myth to the object. It's why I mean yeah, we talked about this bracelet on last week's episode and that's why I wear mechanical watches and, you know, leather boots and just anything that can wear brass cameras.
Speaker 1:You know I I love things that wear, but that I know I'm confident this is gonna last for a long time well, I think when you make a larger upfront investment for an item like that, whether it's a big investment of time to track down that item, you know, because it's both expensive but a little bit more difficult to find sort of the right one.
Speaker 1:Uh, maybe because of, like with the M9, you know there's all kinds of issues with the sensor. So to actually like spend the time tracking down one that has been repaired or is eligible to be repaired or whatever kind of checks, all those boxes, but then also the price point. So if you do buy an M11 and a 35 millimeter Summicron Summicron lens and you're in 15 grand or whatever it would be, there's also. There's also an element of that where I feel like when you make that kind of a move, it's going to sort of set a threshold of getting a return on that Like you're going to step up to the plate to like make, make that purchase worthwhile in most cases, like I remember.
Speaker 2:I mean, I remember when I bought the m9 and this was in what like 2019 yeah or some somewhere around there.
Speaker 2:But I was, was. It was the almost the opposite effect. Yeah, and at that point that was such a stretch financially that I mean, I remember I was talking to my mom I'm like, yeah, I'm uh, I'm driving to to do something. I'm like I'm staring at this camera that I just bought and it costs more than my car is worth. Yeah, and that was a very you know. So I didn't want to use it, I didn't want to take it out yeah, because the risk, yeah, the risk is so high.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, if something happens to this, I'm fucked right. So it almost goes against the.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the like that was a big lesson to learn that of oh, I don't want to fuck this up. Yeah, and that's the problem. And I mean similar with the. Uh, when I bought the hustle blood, it was, you know, really cool camera, totally not the most elegant functional camera and um, but yeah, I mean I bought, I bought the Hasselblad and I was like, yeah, like I just I'm too afraid of fucking this up, especially with the Hasselblad because it was rare. Right the same reason why I sold the Mamiya, the Mamiya seven, was I was like if it.
Speaker 2:You know it was less of a financial thing at that point, it was more just. But I you know what terrified me, the, the mamiya 7, the pentax 672, the contacts. I was, oh my god, the electronics are gonna go bad and I'm gonna be stuck with this. You know, four thousand or three thousand dollar brick, right, right. So yeah, I mean, I almost think that I would almost argue the opposite of yeah, of that it it really. I do want to. I want to move this conversation out. Like I feel like we're just talking about stupid, hyper expensive yeah, like this is entitled to entitled dudes talking about like nonsense, um, um. But I, I, I'm curious to dive more into the idea of what, that concept of wanting an object that represents adventure rather than seeking out the adventure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you know the first thought I had when you said that was will this object pull me into adventure? Because I've got to make the investment in it worthwhile, like, and I'm inspired by what this could mean to start making work with it and go to places where better work might happen. And that doesn't mean like you're going to Bombay or you're going to you know far off places.
Speaker 1:It could mean you're going up to Norfolk, nebraska, you know, uh, for the day and exploring there to to see what's going on. Um, but I think it goes back to we talked about this in an episode a long time ago when my sister told me she was going to send me her iBook G3. I couldn't.
Speaker 1:I can't write anything until I get it, there's a better, there's a better, cooler tool out there, so I couldn't possibly write, you know, write another screenplay or outline until I get that better tool that'll allow me to do this.
Speaker 1:Or go to the coffee shop to to realize a fantasy that has has that you've just created, because an object that I couldn't have gone and bought at the Apple store myself back then but would be provided to me, um, and so, yeah, you get into stuff like that. I mean, I, you know one of my things like with my studio, if you guys watch the studio tour, um, you know, and you obviously being there, there's a lot of purchase in there that are part of a fantasy, or what I call like an ambition based purchase. You know, I see the item, it's inexpensive but it means a lot to me, not necessarily because of its value, finance, you know the, the, the monetary value, but what I could do with this, I could take this old stereo and clean it up and use it or sell it for a profit, or, um, I can take all these digital cameras and make videos on my channel and have, you know, another, another revenue stream, another place for self-expression, another way to build community and connect with other people, and I'll give that object all this ambition and all this fantasy. Um, and then sometimes, you know, sometimes you follow through on that and it does, it does help you to step up to the plate and deliver on it, but more often than not, after that initial explosion of dopamine and the fantasy generation and all that stuff.
Speaker 1:It's a something that's just kind of a burden, taking up space in your studio and you're seeking out the next moment where you see an object that spawns fantasy and ambition and all these things that you're going to do, because in that moment your future is boundless and it is uninhibited and there are no obstacles. You don't have a kid who's homesick, you don't have the limitations of, uh, financial resources to take your truck and drive to someplace for two or three days, like all of that stuff is completely doable in that moment and and and this is literally like in an instant all this you know blooms in your, in my mind and my emotions.
Speaker 2:All you have to do is spend that money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you just just acquire this thing and then and then and then, where's the follow through? So sometimes you know, in the M11 could be again your mind going well, you're, you're acquiring some of these items that spawn those kinds of fantasies, but the risk is so low. It's a $5 thing, it's a $20 thing, it's a $30 thing. So there's no follow-through because the risk isn't there. And I don't think that if I spent $15,000 on a high-end Leica system, that for a sustained amount of time, months, months, years later, I'd be out there toiling away with that camera. You know, making work and some of that is, it's not poor self-discipline, it's not a lack of ambition, it's not a lack of desire to do it, it's, you know, for me, the crushing reality of adult life is partially self-imposed and partially, you know, just being a dad and having to earn money, like there's things I just can't do in my fantasy world that will allow me to be present with my kids, to earn the revenue that I have to earn to pay for all the normal stuff we have, uh, so. So there's that as well.
Speaker 1:And I think and I'll wrap up but you know, even when I watch photography, youtubers or a Gary Winogrand documentary or something, um, or something like that. I just sit there and think that they lead this amazing life where they literally can spend all day out taking photographs. They have nothing holding them back. They have maybe minimalist lifestyles where the demands on them for revenue are low or they don't care about it as much as as somebody else. You know all these things and you just think, man, they've got it.
Speaker 1:You know, william Eggleston just had it made because he could just go out anytime he wanted to and just make work endlessly and the resources to print it and develop it, and, and you know, once he got that first show at at MoMA, he was I mean, he was golden and obviously that's all not that's none of, that's true, but that's the, the sort of um, the downside of how my mind and emotions work is I just sort of see these idealized, mythological, fantastical situations and and I contrast that with you know the the crushing reality of adult life as a 46 year old guy with two kids and a house and all these, you know, and all this stuff and um, and I and I and I think I, I, I have little flotation devices for that of, if I get this thing, then I'll unlock the key to that world, and I'll be able to participate in it.
Speaker 2:And that's just not going to happen. Take one person as a point of reference and then build our entire potential or our entire future around the idea or the narrative of, but is beholden to that one individual.
Speaker 1:Right, yes.
Speaker 2:When in reality, that's complete nonsense. You know the billions and billions and billions of people that have come and gone.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Everybody kind of figures out and does things a little differently. Um, there's just a lot of, a lot of different ways to get from point A to point B. And I mean, yeah, it's, you know, you can look at William Eggleston, this is this is kind of what my realization on that was. Um, it's like, you know, I look at these people and I'd be like, well, I want to, I want to be like that, I want to do that, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then you look up and you're just like man, years just keep going by, like I'm just getting older and I'm losing, and then at some point, you kind of just have to be like, okay, what? At some point you kind of just have to be like, okay, what interests me, where am I at? What are the resources I have? Let's go there Instead of trying to position myself as this person or as this person. It's just like what do I care about? Let's lean into that. And it's tough, though there's always something new and shiny that pops up, especially in the world we live in now. Constantly there's something new and shiny and there's FOMO and there's a little bit of um, just I don't know if it's social anxiety or but oh, I'm, I'm not part of. I'm not part of the group or I'm not.
Speaker 1:Right, yes.
Speaker 2:And most of that stuff is just fabricated. Most of that stuff is not real in my opinion. Um, might feel more real for some people than others, but yeah, I'm like what do you? How do you deal with that? How do you fight those? Curious, because, like with with me it's. I mean usually if it, if it is something and obviously we're not, you know, we're not perfect at this, but yeah, if the result is the only way to feel better or to accomplish this thing is to spend X amount of money on this product, I'm like, okay, that good marketing, yeah. And then, once you realize that it almost does give you a it's just marketing I'm I got sucked in there, like I got sucked in, pulled into a vacuum there, because that's not reality.
Speaker 2:Reality is not as binary as with this. You'll succeed without this. You won't Right. So if you find yourself in that situation, you've probably been manipulated to to feel that way. Yeah, um, I mean, that's kind of the. But yeah, what? What do you? What do you? Do you have tactics or tried and true methods? Yeah, I mean uh.
Speaker 2:I'm figuring out every day.
Speaker 1:Like no, and I think it's interesting. You know the the place that I'm coming from now and this is all self-imposed is my main focus right now is just revenue, and everything that I've done the last year and a half, two years has put me in a place where, oddly enough, where I sort of like have clarity of what I want to do. But to get that clarity I kind of broke things a little bit, or at least not not neglected them, but sort of um, uh, just didn't give the revenue aspect of being a youtuber and all that stuff the attention that it needed. And because revenue is way down and I still have my financial responsibilities to meet Part of the clarity I have not only in what I sort of want to do in a more idealized setting, like a realistic, idealized setting, like I just have, like I'm making five grand a month paying taxes, you know like I'm, I'm I'm like a middle-class person, uh, you know, just, just, just that has revenue that I can count on, even if it's a little up or down here and there is to just focus everything around getting it back to the way it was before.
Speaker 1:So then when I have free time I'm not thinking about how I can monetize everything, thinking about how I can monetize everything. So, like tonight, if we go out and do photos, this part of my brain has a digicam where I'm like, well, I can get more photos with that digicam so I can make a video for my photography channel, because I'm 500 watch hours away from getting you know, monetize all this stuff, I guess he just got demonetized.
Speaker 1:You did yeah, oh, because your watch hours are down.
Speaker 2:I haven't posted a video in over a year.
Speaker 1:Oh, so because of the videos.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I didn't mean to no that's good to know.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that, but I forgot that a lack of posting can demonetize you, even if your watch hours are okay. God, it's really been a year, huh.
Speaker 2:I didn't realize it had been a year, yeah, which isn't like some depressing thing that you've been posting in a year. Oh no, I mean, it's depressing for me because I like your videos. But yeah, so Something will come eventually. I just yeah, I got to find the right tone.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and and and part of why that's not an issue for me is because my revenue is tied to making videos, so I'm just doing it all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Whereas if I had employment or I was doing something else that generated revenue and YouTube was not a primary focus.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean I had a stretch last year where I didn't post a video for 70 days because I was doing other stuff. So so that's the. With that focus around revenue, it's like I don't even have the luxury of thinking about how to be disciplined and get out there making work, how to be disciplined and get out there making work. What I would like to do, like I said, is get revenue consistent to where I'm meeting my goals and potentially exceeding them, to where it can take the pressure off of feeling like I have to find every little thing that I can monetize to win the lottery or get another consistent revenue stream going or whatever, with um, with making content. Uh, because right now, yeah, I mean I just I'm thinking of everything through this lens of pun intended of can I make money doing this? Can I get some revenue Like and I would enjoy earning revenue from doing this, rather than like selling a plugin or making a video about what's in my bag, you know, to try to get some commissions going?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that that's.
Speaker 1:That's kind of where I'm at, but would be curious to know your thoughts from where you are.
Speaker 2:I'm before we completely leave that do you feel like, I don't know, like dissect the dissect, the feeling, just a little bit, Is it, does it feel like you're trapped or does it feel like you're?
Speaker 1:I think, I think like a fire is yeah, I think before maybe there was a feeling of not being trapped, but sort of like.
Speaker 2:I'm just and where I'm getting to, just to give you better. Context is is it a negative feeling? Is it a positive feeling?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, where, yeah, where is it? Where are you falling in that category?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I think overall everything's positive because I took the last year plus.
Speaker 2:You're like it worked out fine yeah.
Speaker 1:To sort of like re to, to, to, to do a couple of things. You know, like if I was trapped, let's say, let's just use some imagery. Imagery like I was in some kind of container. There was like a dirtiness or a fogginess around the container. I couldn't see things clearly, sort of like the commerce side of what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:I think initially, when I started making money from content creation, you're so excited that's something that you love doing, talking about computers and video editing and all that stuff turns into a stream of revenue that you don't realize that you're getting pulled into, uh, not like a dark world of commerce, but like a world of commerce where you're participating in the thing that was designed by, sort of designed by the people in higher positions of power, so that you'll be a good little producer of content that gets people to buy stuff or do this or do that and it's open source, but it benefits one company, yeah, or not even just youtube, but just um, every time you talk about a product, you know obviously I'm not getting paid by Apple to talk about Final Cut Pro.
Speaker 1:You don't, because your intentions are sort of true and a little bit more pure, because you're just talking about an app that you love and you want to show people how to use it so they can make things that they're excited to make. You don't realize that you're also selling a product. But then when you actually think about that, what's in my camera bag video a big part of doing that is going well, how much could I make in commission if I talk about this or that or whatever?
Speaker 1:Well, I don't usually have this in my bag.
Speaker 1:But if I don't talk about this product and put it in the bag and in the video, then I might not make as much money.
Speaker 1:And then if you make that video well intentioned, like these are the things I don't leave my house without, if you make that video well intentioned, like these are the things I don't leave my house without, but then you sit back and think about it, you're like I'm excited to share this information with an audience, but the people that are in those positions of power are going, yep, keep making those videos, keep selling this stuff, keep you know, keep pushing, um, pushing the commerce side of things.
Speaker 1:So I think I, you know, took that time away to not only build an awareness of that and do research and to you know everything from we talked about for the century of the self and Edward Bernays and our society shifting from needs-based, desire-based sort of learning, how all those strings get pulled in people, um, to feel like you have a little bit more of an understanding of how all that works. So you can still participate in it, but in a way that's more on your terms and that's I mean you can't, you can't not have a commerce element to it if that's how you're choosing to earn a living, and we both play a role in that, through your career and through and through what I'm doing. But how can I make it a little bit more so that I both see what's happening and the forces at play but then make my content with an awareness of that rather than a cluelessness about it? So that's been a big help, but again, in figuring that out.
Speaker 1:revenue has nosedived, while financial responsibility has remained consistent, maybe decreased a little bit because of paying down certain obligations. But one thing goes away and another one comes up, and that pressure is still there, and now it's.
Speaker 2:Wants have increased too. I mean, maybe not increased, but there's definitely like your interests have broadened and you've, yeah, discovered different worlds of oh wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's some cool. Yeah, yeah, whether it's you know, yeah.
Speaker 1:Uh, personal things like vinyl records or uh, uh, you know, overhauling my studio stuff like that to you know. You know having a desire for travel with my family, travel with friends, and by travel I can mean something as simple as a three hour drive to a lake up North and spending four days, you know, checked out that kind of thing. Yeah, um, I feel like I left something, a part of the answer to your question, um, unanswered, but I can't remember.
Speaker 2:Kind of optimistic, pessimistic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I'll remember it when I watched the episode back through to do show notes, but that's okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's. I think it's interesting, the and you pointed it out we, you know we both play a role in the commerce side of things and I don't know how you get away from it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think the artists that we look up to, you know, in the photography world, you know Winogrand, saul Leiter, eggleston, they did, you know they did commercial work, you know, it's not like they didn't have bills to pay, you know, and they and they had to use their art and their skills and their mastery of of those of that form and apply it to fashion shoots and other stuff.
Speaker 1:Is it a little different than sometimes harvesting an art form to create content? Definitely, I don't know that one is better than the other. I haven't know that one is better than the other. I mean, I haven't been contacted by Vogue to shoot forces at play, even though I'm not aware of all of them still at this point, and I don't think ever would be. Uh, I can feel better about engaging with the commerce side.
Speaker 1:Um hopefully not at the expense of doing the personal work, cause you know my, my understanding of Gary and Saul lighter and all that is they went out after. You know they went out whenever they could to to to make work Some of that that hadn't been seen, you know, in terms of Saul lighter, ever, you know, until.
Speaker 2:Gary as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and Gary, yeah, I mean geez like how many Hundreds of thousands of photos.
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah so I still dream pretty consistently about escape velocity though. Yeah, I think that's pretty constant in my vision. How can I?
Speaker 1:Elaborate on that. What do you mean?
Speaker 2:Just how can I hit an escape velocity? How can I either separate the commerce, if a cation, just get it as far away from the actual product, or not product? Yeah, you see how? Yeah, but get it away as far away from the actual creation or whatever the thing is? How can I pull it away from that, whether that's a different tucking it down the line in terms of the revenue model or having some kind of secondary whatever I just how can you? I don't, I don't want to sit here and be, you know, oh, it's not pure if it, but and obviously an important aspect to any work is having something that's accessible.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And if you talk to somebody who's really good at selling something, they'll be like well, it's got to be accessible. You want it to be accessible, and if it's accessible, then it's sellable.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And if you have something that is accessible and that's strong, then you deserve to make money off of it, or you and I. I think there's something to be said where you can have something that's accessible and not drain it for every, every ounce of. Uh. There's just something that's a little bit corrupted about the idea that, yes, you want it to be viewed by or, you know, appreciated or just taken in by whatever you create, that is, by as many people as as I mean, as many people as possible, right, but that doesn't have to be in my head, and you know everybody's perspective is is probably a little different on this but that doesn't have to mean that you're sucking every, you're like a vampire and you're trying to extract as much capital from it as the end. All be all doesn't have to be capital. Yes, and I think you get a hundred people together and I'd be curious how many would disagree with me on that statement. I guess it's probably a lot.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think for me, I think about.
Speaker 2:You know, like you said, it's important, but yeah, I'm always thinking about, like, how could I reach an escape velocity to where that's not? You talk about it not being the driving factor or whatever. Yes, obviously that would be, but you know there's plenty of artists who operate on their own terms. They go directly to their fans, they make the work that they want to make. There's a patience on both sides and that probably leads to better work, whatever that means.
Speaker 2:Probably leads to work that's more thoughtful and yeah less influenced by externalities, but there's plenty of people that have figured that out, figured out how to get there. So that's constantly on my mind how do I get there? Yeah, how do you reach that point?
Speaker 1:And is that when you say exit velocity and reaching that point, is it like my mind goes to something that I think about, something that I think about which is how can I secure myself with financial things, revenue or savings or whatever. It is where that security then makes me focus minimally on commercial pursuits or revenue-based pursuits and and make more. You know, take more time to make work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I mean I, yeah, I think it's. It's that I mean I. I probably tend to approach it a little more financially minded.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Um, just yeah like reaching, whether it's yeah. Just yeah like reaching, whether it's yeah. I think a cash flow is probably more of a realistic potential than uh like a savings right point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just yeah, you've got eight million dollars in your life. I can pay myself 80 grand a year and and and, and you know, live a modest life and just make work all the time. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I think that I do think. I just want to be careful. How yeah take your time there's almost a, and you know I have to be careful that I'm not sitting here, and once I get here then I'll be able to create all of this.
Speaker 2:Whatever, once I get to be careful that I'm not sitting here and oh, once I get here then I'll be able to create all of this, whatever, Once I get to this point, because that's never going to come. There's two things that are kind of true at once. One, yes, I'd like to reach this escape velocity, but two, I'm just going day by day. Okay, try to create when you have time, to try to make something when you have time to make something. Um, try to make sure that it's a practice, try to make sure that it's constant. Uh, it helps, like I've. I've a broad set of interest for sure, Right, Um, we both do, but it helps to.
Speaker 2:Not everything is kind of satellite around a couple of core things, and so you know it's. Oh, yeah, I'm interested in a lot of things, but it all filters through a couple of things, which makes it easy to kind of be. I mean, yeah, I don't know, You've known me for six years, I don't, I don't, I'm kind of into the. I mean like I'll get new interest, but I don't know what. I don't know how you would gauge that or what you would say about it, but I do feel like I'm. There's just a couple of core things, that kind of everything filters through.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I felt that way too. Uh, for for you, as far as what I've seen, you know obviously your writing, um, uh, you know your your desires for filmmaking, and then you know photography and you certainly have interests in things like whiskey and you know watches and you know there there's, there's interest in those, those things, the books that you're, you know you're reading and all that. Um, but yeah, as far as the, the, the work goes, I felt like it's always been in those three areas, yeah, and even, yeah, every.
Speaker 2:All the other interests kind of filter through that, but so that that makes it easier to kind of return and maintain things as a, as a practice or as a recurring practice. But, yeah, I, I, I think I just have this idealized version of oh, I can just I mean, we've talked about it before my, my ideal world is just oh, I have a huge bit of land out somewhere and I'm in the middle of it and there's a writing cabin Come up for air when I feel like coming up for air, maintain, put time and effort into the close personal connections. But that's like the fantasy for me, like that's the product in my mind, where I'm like constantly, man, if I could just get there, like, like that's the and I do have to try to fight that. That doesn't corrupt me doing anything right now. It's like, oh, if I can just get to this point.
Speaker 2:But I also don't know how realistic that is. Yeah, don't know how realistic that is. Yeah, I just know that some people have done it like I. Like I said, there's definitely people that have gotten to a point where they are either they are producing a cash flow, but the irony, and getting back to the original conversation of you know you try to get to this point like, oh, I want the m11 right um, do you want the m11 or do you want the motorcycle?
Speaker 2:Well, the M11 is going to sit on the shelf or the motorcycle is going to it. What I'm the the, the idea that I'm trying to get at is lean into the action, lean into the adventure of it. Like, where's the story, what? What is what is going to give you the? It's going to teach you the most and it's going to give you the best story to come back and tell. Because that nucleus of things at least for me, like, with the nucleus being, yeah, like film, photography and writing, um, it's only about experience I can be like, oh, I need this new computer, this new typewriter, this new camera, this, it's that. Stuff doesn't matter, it's completely useless if you don't have something to actually put it towards. Yeah, and so, yeah, getting getting to the, the, the broader point it's you know, usually it's easy to sit here and look at those things as if that is the oh, I want to get this thing.
Speaker 1:That's my destination. That's the destination. Ownership of the object.
Speaker 2:A lot of times. The irony of it all is if you chase the other, if you just chase the adventure you chase the the meaningful thing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's when that stuff is the byproduct right A lot of the people that we've been referencing who have for lack of a better term achieved escape velocity. Yeah, they didn't do it because they were thinking about achieving escape velocity. They did it because they were just focused on making something that captured what they wanted to say. They focused on the adventure, they focused on going out and living a story that was worth telling, and then the byproduct of that was the escape velocity telling and then the byproduct of that was the escape velocity. So that's the lesson I think I keep telling myself, or keep contending with.
Speaker 2:And I think it makes a lot of sense in my mind.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think for me, part of this last couple of years is going. Was I that way at one point? And then, as social media and the internet and all that stuff took up more and more real estate from what I looked at, what I consumed, what I was just presented without even thinking about it, does all of that shift you from pursuing these experiences or making things to create, you know, objects becoming the destination?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had that exact thought on a run the other night after we got off the phone. That exact. You know how much has have these social bubbles, yeah, these digital bubbles, or whatever, how, how, how, how much has that shifted our perception towards the thing? Is the destination right or the? Yeah, the? You know the fabrication of the? Thing, is the is the whole point.
Speaker 1:And then my experience was Holy shit, If that is what's happening, or what has happened to me, what role am I playing in doing that to other people by making these videos? Yeah, and it was like, oh, you need to really be careful about what you're doing and and or, if you are doing it, having an awareness of it will inform how, not how you. How, how you do it. And I think part of why I've gravitated toward older stuff is because I can't. I mean, yes, you can go on eBay and buy that camera, or you can go to eBay and buy a copy of Aperture and install it on your computer, but I'm gravitating towards stuff that is old because it doesn't feel like you're selling a new shiny product when you talk about it. Oh, by the way, there's a link to this magic trackpad in the description. If you go to bnhcom, I get a little affiliate, you know kickback, and you'll have a new $130 thing that you think will solve all your problems.
Speaker 1:But no, it'll just. You just move the goalpost toward the next object that you need to acquire, to to start making meaningful work.
Speaker 2:What's cool too, if you do that enough, and if you go against the echo chamber enough, you start to teach people, and not in a didactic way, but you start to teach people in a very subconscious, almost intuitive way, that the whole point of experience is to just find things that you enjoy.
Speaker 2:That's right, you're not going to get. You're going to get a lot more joy from being the only person that uses this thing. That's completely serves the need you have. Yeah, Rather than being one of a hundred thousand people with the same exact thing and everybody's looking around like, yeah, this is good Right. Yeah, this is good Right.
Speaker 1:Yep Right, so you had to buy this right.
Speaker 2:Yes. And you gave it to me yes, it's going to solve all your problems, and there is nothing about that experience with you that makes me go.
Speaker 1:Alex is helping the company that made this book, or the people who own the rights to these thoughts, or this writer and his revenue and his money. And you know, is Alex getting a kickback because he handed this to me and if I do something with it he's going to get a little 5% commission. Like there's no, nothing like that in us having talked about young you mentioning this book and then giving it to me as a birthday gift, and I spent the last two years going. How do I do that on the internet? Yeah, how do I take an innocent transfer, curation of an item between two friends and apply that to making videos on the internet? Do, and I'm asking sort of not for an answer. But you know, and, and I think I've gravitated toward these old objects because I can't earn a commission on them yeah, I can't get a commission on aperture. I can't tell you about a Canon f1 and I guess I could sign up for the eBay affiliate program and if someone buys it I could get a little commission.
Speaker 2:Well, until we sell out. This podcast is a good example of until we get that sponsor Right. Until you get that sponsor, no, but this is.
Speaker 1:That's what I want to do, I just want to have a friend and we talk about all kinds of shit. Have a friend and we talk about all kinds of shit and I send you a video or I send you a product or I buy a camera because your work inspired me. You know all that stuff. I just want it to feel like that, but on the internet. And yes, in some instances there might be a commission or something, but I would at least want you know I feel like I would know if you shared something with me and there was some little side hustle to it there was some little, little little kicker involved, if you well if you've got page 13 now, yeah but can you imagine like giving me something where you have this sort of yucky thing to gain from it?
Speaker 1:yeah like it doesn't. Even when would that ever come up, like if you got involved?
Speaker 2:it's yeah, it's not really like a pyramid scheme or something. It's not really a thing that happens in the physical. I mean, I guess scams happen.
Speaker 1:obviously People get in a bad way and they try to get stuff from their family or friends to buy this or sign up for this. You know selling, I mean, you know all that stuff Like hey, trust me, this is.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I mean, especially with close relationships, for the most part I think it is hard to. I mean especially with close relationships, for the most part I think it is hard to. I mean it's not like it's hard, it's just like we don't have Like I've never had the thought of like, oh, I'm going to make a few bucks off of Matt in this way, like I've never had the thought of oh, I'm going to make a few dollars off of Audrey Right.
Speaker 1:Like it's just like if you gave me a coupon, essentially for this book, like, hey, I didn't get you the book, but if you go to Amazon and click on my link. I sent you the books free for you. It'll ship it to your house.
Speaker 2:But, like somehow there was a kickback for you for having done that, I guess like I've sent the if you get somebody to sign up for the credit card you get like, or Dropbox 10,000 free points, stuff like free storage or something, but I mean, it's not like I'm like hey, sign up for this.
Speaker 1:Right, it's always like I love this thing. I'm like, I'm like and there happens to be a yeah, sort of the worst. I want it to be on my channel. Like guys, I love this thing.
Speaker 2:Well, but the problem, the problem is is we've gotten so far into that. Yeah, that now a lot of I love. This thing is actually pretty. It feels fake.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yep, and and it feels good on channels that are small and new and they don't have affiliate or sponsorships. But the minute. You monetize your stuff, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, and especially when it's like oh, this is, this is something that I absolutely love and is unique to me, but it's also the sponsor of the other 43 podcasts or the other 74 YouTubers. It's also the sponsor of the other 43 podcasts or the other 74 youtubers, right? It's like so do you love it or do you love?
Speaker 1:it because it's paying you well, right?
Speaker 2:I almost just prefer you to be like you're in a community of people that are sponsored by that sponsor and I mean it's just like you'll watch review videos and they'll like review a product and they'll review it pretty openly, but they'll be like, but it tested nowhere close to this product. And then you're like, oh, I need to go check that product out. And then you realize they're selling that product. Yeah, this review is a real review, right, but they're selling that product yeah so it's a fake review and that just people are sick of that.
Speaker 2:And I heard, I heard a thing this morning where it's the. The audience is not dumb yeah the audience. There's a billy weiler quote and it's you know the the individual is. You know the individual might be dumb, but the group is genius. And I butchered the quote but it's that idea.
Speaker 2:You get an audience. It's hard to fool a lot of people and I think and then, yeah, it was the idea of being, you know, good work doesn't try to talk down to the audience. They expect the audience to be able to meet the work where they need to, but dumb people try to make they think that they're smarter than so. They try to dumb it down for the audience and in reality, you're just making dumb work. To dumb it down for the audience and in reality, you're just making dumb work.
Speaker 2:It's the the idea, though, that, yeah, you know, we've, we've reached a point where it's so corrupted that I think most people just don't like you hit a sponsorship of video, of video, and I almost appreciate the ones where they're just like, yeah, fuck this, Like this is just a sponsorship of video, of a video, and I almost appreciate the ones where they're just like, yeah, fuck this, like this is just a part of it. I'm like that's more genuine than the, you know, trying to act like it's integrated and trying to yeah, just make it just intrusive and
Speaker 2:gross Cause, that's kind of what it is. Yeah, and I hate to you know, we talked about I don't know if we talked about this on air or not but the idea of you know, having some quote unquote film on the internet and then, right in the middle it's this is brought to you by Squarespace, or this is brought to you by BetterHelp, right. It's like if that's could you imagine, you're watching Goodfellas, and then, halfway through, brought to you by BetterHelpcom, right, and you're like what the fuck is BetterHelp? Because Goodfellas was made in 1989 or 1990.
Speaker 2:It's like what the fuck is that brand? Yeah, it's just.
Speaker 1:I don't know it's not it's going to look bad at some point.
Speaker 2:There's just no way that it's not going to look disgusting at some point.
Speaker 1:And there is elements of that in movies with product placement. I mean, you know there's.
Speaker 2:Oh, 100%, but it's so obvious now too, yeah, and you watch back movies where there's clear product placement and you're just like.
Speaker 1:Well, and the ones that I like most are, you know, a movie like goodfellas, let's say, one of the you know old cars, or you know uh, I don't know whatever some object in the show that's from the past, obviously, because it's a period movie but it's highlighted or you see it. You can't just go to Target and buy it, but it creates an intrigue into seeking out that item.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Versus, you know, et with a box of Reese's Pieces. Yeah, you know, you can go to the store right then and buy them. Which people did you know and put that company on the map? Right, yeah, right, yeah. And that's part of like the thing with my, my stuff.
Speaker 1:Having old stuff in there is it's I think, subconsciously, it's a desire to just not promote anything but to to use these older things that you can't just go to the store and buy because it it, I don't know, it just feels less commercial to me, less commercey to me.
Speaker 1:At the same time, I am open to sponsorship on my channel because the cold, hard truth is, if I don't generate revenue through my channel, then I have to go get a job Period.
Speaker 1:There's no other option. My wife doesn't earn enough money for me, to me, to just have a, a YouTube and hobby, uh, or making work that doesn't generate revenue by itself from a gallery, showing or selling prints, or you know what, whatever you would do to, to, to make we're selling a screenplay, you know making a, you know making an actual movie that gets picked up at a festival and then gets a deal on Netflix, or this or that or whatever you know like, uh, I just can't deny the fact that there has that stuff has to play a role in what I do. The only thing I can do is again be aware at all the forces that play, as much as humanly possible, the role I play in that arena, and then figuring out a way to do it that is more palatable to me, that is, more me handing you a book that is sort of an honest and pure and sort of selfless curation type of thing, rather than hey man, have I talked to you about this parcel of land down in Missouri? This is a great opportunity.
Speaker 1:You gotta hear this yeah, trying to cold call somebody yeah, you know, like you, literally like trying to sell me I don't know Tupperware. Yeah, cause you, you know you'll.
Speaker 2:I mean, first of all, that's crazy to me that that was actually just a thing that people did.
Speaker 1:And stole.
Speaker 2:I mean, could you imagine, like, like you and I have been friends for six years now. You know six plus years, really really good friends, for you know past three years or so, dude, if you came and were trying to sell me some tupperware or something on the on the I would never be able to trust you again.
Speaker 2:Right, that sounds so shitty, but it's like, yeah, it's, it's, it's. So I guess we're in a we're in a better place societally where that's recognized to be such an unacceptable form of behavior. But yeah, it still happens on the internet and I don't know. I mean, have you? We got to get off here pretty soon too, but have you? What do you think about? Like the patron model, like I in my head?
Speaker 1:head, that's the, that's the end all like content creation, yeah, like that is the peak and that's as good as it gets, and that's what I'm trying to build, but through the youtube memberships, because I I personally just like the idea of having it all under one roof. Um, nothing, nothing against Patreon, but Well, I'm just yeah.
Speaker 2:When I say patron, I just mean oh patronage, yeah, Just the concept of patron.
Speaker 1:Yeah, patreon Not Patreon yeah.
Speaker 2:Like the concept of loyal group of fans yes, engaged and willing to pay for what you provide.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think that's the yeah that's the best of the best.
Speaker 2:I think that is the. It gives the artist the ultimate freedom, it gives the audience an investment in the product and in the artists, and then it also gives the confidence that there's no ulterior motive.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:No, a hundred percent win, win, win.
Speaker 1:Yeah, uh, I yeah, I completely agree. Um, I think that that's a difficult concept for people to get their heads around in our culture or society, for whatever reason, but it does exist, it's out there. But I think, I think too, we're just so inundated now, especially with I'm not equating patronage to subscriptions, but it's a similar. Yeah, you know it's, it's for sure it's, you know it's, it's.
Speaker 2:it's on the spectrum of similarity Um well, and it's almost been hijacked by tech or any kind. Of. I mean it's mainly tech, but yeah, it's well, yeah but, but we've, you know, we've, we've.
Speaker 1:Grocery subscriptions Grocery subscriptions and all that stuff. But yeah, I do think something like that would be incredible, and I don't other than like literally having a Patreon or YouTube memberships. I don't know how something like that would happen, sort of naturally, where somebody was like someone just sent me an email and said I love your content so much. I would like to just help fund your operation and I'm going to send you a check for $10,000 as part of what I think should be an annual giving to what you're doing, so that I feel secure in getting more and more work from you and freeing you up from concerns about commerce to be able to do stuff no strings attached.
Speaker 2:We'll have to put the old Kevin Kelly article, the thousand true fans whatever it was. It's from like early 2000s, but yeah, I mean that's kind of the birth or not the birth, but it was one of the original like digital marketplace patronage.
Speaker 1:Well, and just as we wrap up, you know I do have YouTube memberships and I have, um, you know, probably 20, probably, yeah, 20 to 30 people who pay a monthly subscription to get additional content and perks and all that stuff through my channel. You know the it's a low cost barrier of entry. You know, um and this is not me plugging it, but just to explain a little bit of how it works there's a low-end subscription of $0.99 a month, all the way up to $20 a month, and I create videos that are just sort of like that kind of book club vibe where you're talking about a video you watched or a book you read or something that you're dealing with or whatever, and the base subscribers have access to all those videos.
Speaker 1:And then there's some additional. I'm creating Final Cut Pro content. That's a little bit access to all those videos. And then there's some additional. I'm creating Final Cut Pro content that's a little bit easier to turn around quickly but goes more in depth and has more value, but is more palatable to a member rather than somebody getting fed this type of video and the algorithm where they're gonna tune out quickly because it's not sort of doing all of the production value that a normal YouTube video might have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um so do you think if you, if you just came out and were like hey, this is the number I want to hit, and it would give me ease, like I basically have to launch a?
Speaker 1:kickstarter or something and basically I would, through my channel, say hey guys, for me to continue doing this and not have sponsorships and not have that, I need $50,000 a year as just a baseline. And if I hit that goal, then these are the things I won't do on my channel. Maybe I won't take a sponsor, or I won't, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Whatever I would do and that you know that's hard because you can have unlimited sponsors.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But you know, the subscription model or the patron model, whatever you want to call it, kind of fixes it and I I feel like if I saw one of my favorite YouTubers do something like that, I would be intrigued.
Speaker 1:I'd be like that's interesting. I am not opposed to giving you, especially if I can see that other people are contributing as well. I'm not opposed to giving you a hundred, 150, $200 for the year to help you raise that kind of money to then be sort of free free from the traditional means of commerce on that platform and if I could contribute to your uh wellbeing so that you could keep doing what you're doing, because I get a lot of value out of it, that that's interesting to me. Yeah, one thing that I that I wanted to touch on with my channel membership. This is just a hunch. I don't have any data or anything to back this up, but YouTube changed how they present your channels to where now non-members see the videos that are available to members and it's badged with this members only green badge on it. And my channel is not gaining subscribers like it once had.
Speaker 1:but there's numerous times where I'll refresh YouTube Studio and I've lost four subscribers you know, whereas in the past it was gaining six and eight and 12, you know, when some of my older evergreen videos were more prominent on YouTube. And part of me wonders. I wonder if some people are arriving on my channel and seeing a paywall and they see a video that they would click on if they, if it was free, and they're irritated that they don't have access to it because of the commerce, you know, because of the membership thing, and they're like fuck this guy, unsubscribe.
Speaker 2:But then again it's like getting back to the thousand true fans.
Speaker 1:It's better to have a thousand people pay you a hundred dollars a year than it is to pay, than to have you know a hundred thousand people and right With, casually, 10 of them give you anything, so yeah, that's kind of an interesting thing to sort of facilitate a patronage through a fundraiser like a gofundme or something to say I'm thinking like the old telethon, dial-a-thon, yeah I mean pbs does it all the time, and while sometimes I'm annoyed when it's that time of year, well, kvno, our local or NPR, yeah.
Speaker 2:I know KVNO, which is the local classical station. They do it, I always try to donate to that. If TCM ever did it, I would be the first one to.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's definitely things that I can assume, that I would I mean, yeah, if TCM was like.
Speaker 2:I mean, they're Warner Brothers and it seems like they've got the backing of some pretty powerful people, at least for now, which I'm very happy about.
Speaker 1:I've never thought about that a YouTuber making a fundraiser essentially to hit a baseline, being honest with it, not being a dick about it, but just, hey, look, here's the math.
Speaker 2:Yeah, here's the math that I'm looking at and it's like this is what I do and this is like, and you know you're going to have some people that are turned off by that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, there's a YouTube channel, this guy drinker, and he has like this, you know he's a Scottish guy and he has sort of a character, um, that he puts on and you know is pretty harsh, uh, but then also very complimentary to different shows or movies that he likes and dislikes. And I think he's decided to put his money where his mouth is on critiquing a lot of shows and calling them out for story issues, plot holes, you know, cliches, all that stuff to start making his own short content, short films and all that. And so he put together a fundraiser and this guy this guy like averages a million views per video and I think he's at like 250 to $300,000 that he's raised towards making these short films. And I sit there and go, geez, if I would need someone with 33,000 subscribers, we need 50 grand. And this guy with two point something million subscribers has only raised 300 grand. Like, holy crap, what a, what a mountain to climb for a small channel.
Speaker 2:Um, it's kind of how you climb it, though Do you get airdropped at the top, and then you right you don't have the gear to make it back down, or do you? You know, do you work it the right way?
Speaker 1:and yeah it had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summary.
