Studio Sessions
Discussions about art and the creative process. New episodes every other week.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
Studio Sessions
51. The Homogenization Problem: Is Culture Losing Itself? PART 1
Part one of two.
We once again dive into the tension between artistic integrity and algorithmic demands in today's creator economy. As YouTube's algorithms continue evolving in 2025, prioritizing engagement metrics and recommendation systems that analyze billions of signals, we explore what happens when content creators face the pressure to homogenize their work for maximum reach.
The conversation touches on the current shift away from what industry experts call "the era of excess" or "the Mr. Beastification" of content, examining how viral success can both validate and potentially corrupt creative vision. We discuss the rise of "second screen" content designed for distracted consumption, the psychology of dopamine-driven short-form media, and the fundamental question of whether platforms are prioritizing content over creators. Through personal experiences with viral videos and algorithm rewards, we analyze the delicate balance between commercial success and maintaining one's authentic creative voice—and whether it's possible to resist the pull toward algorithmic optimization while still building a sustainable creative practice. -Ai
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
And it'd been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer.
Speaker 2:I actually got that feedback from a kid that I've become friends with through Discord and he watched my channel a lot because he's really nuts about efficiency with his workflow even more than I am and my videos were helpful for him just kind of get his head around a couple of ideas with, you know, the file folder template and stuff like that. So we've struck up a relationship and he had switched his content from like doing Minecraft centric videos to retro tech as well and like iPods and stuff. But it was a little bit more um, you know, cuddy and text graphics and memes incorporated, and I don't really do that. Um, I, I certainly enjoy some of those channels, but it's not my, my style. Yeah, uh, I I've done that on occasion, but not too much. Anyway, yeah, uh, I, I've done that on occasion, but not too much. Anyway, it's definitely, it's definitely like a style. Yes, I like it too and you can do it. Yeah, some people just have it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he's like I, I hadn't been caught up on your, like your videos over the last year, but I went back through and started watching them and he's like, um, the stuff that you were doing that was more story based about an old piece of tech or getting this and upgrading that, installing this thing, whatever he's like. There's something kind of really cool about those videos where it feels like there's a touch of like old YouTube to it, like it's not the Mr Beastification stuff, it's not just straight up sort of you know, tutorial or educational content. And he said you know, it resonated with him. He threw out, not saying that my videos feel like his videos, but he threw out people like old casey, nice dad, you know, like like videos that were storytelling or this or that or it's so funny too.
Speaker 3:That's old youtube.
Speaker 2:I know like back when people were making videos that were, you know, I think, more on the artistic side and less the algorithm and results. And this kind of goes into that viral TikTok that I had, where the is a little bit more sensational, a little bit more, you know, certainly higher click-through rate, all of that stuff, sort of like the National Enquirer, you know all that stuff night on YouTube about a YouTuber that started out a cooking channel because he had weight issues as a young man and he had lost 100 pounds and started experimenting with making content around food and like preparing meals and all this stuff. So he sort of had his growing pains period but then he kind of hit his stride. His videos had a good vibe. They were a little bit low lo-fi in the sense that not the best camera and not super well lit, but he was doing these series of food videos and recipe videos. That really grew a strong community as well, as you know, enough subscribers to do it full time.
Speaker 2:And so this YouTuber was doing a video about him where he was just really kind of bummed out that his content has all turned into what you know they refer to as the Mr Beastification them or very sensational, um, extreme concept, uh type stuff, and that he went through the comments and, while there were good comments and people that enjoyed those videos, there were people that were lamenting the shift in his channel and the vibe of it, um, and wishing he would kind of go back to those fundamentals. And even though my subscribers are primarily watching my channel for the final cut content, um, and you know the views on some of those videos I was referencing that are more story-based or involving retro tech and I'm not talking about the shorts, I'm talking about the main channel videos um, you know those, those I don't know. There's something just more satisfying about making them.
Speaker 3:And I think there's something with the shorts too that could translate into a longer video. But also, like, youtube is kind of gross right now. Um, like you just looked, you just tried to find the channel and give you a bunch of shorts, right, yeah, I searched, uh they're, just they're just, they're just trying like what again? Maybe that's just one, a one-time thing, but it's like I feel like I yeah, I'm getting that you still have the option to hide shorts. You don't have that option anymore.
Speaker 2:You're not allowed to hide shorts anymore and we've talked about that in my discord about the prominence of shorts and, uh, they're everywhere there's.
Speaker 3:I've not seen a short yeah that is that I've enjoyed. I mean, I'm again. I'm not a good audience for this. A lot of people watch a lot of short videos every day.
Speaker 2:I don't watch any on youtube. I make, I make mine, but I don't.
Speaker 3:I never go to youtube shorts, or yeah, or like if I search for something and see it I a occasion I'll watch a short if it's educational, like I've never even seen one that's made me be like oh, that's interesting, right Like.
Speaker 2:I don't know. Yeah, it's almost like the combination of that bite-sized content.
Speaker 2:There's like this sort of sensational or extreme stuff, you know sort of gravitates towards shorts, or at least that's what's being served up. But then the fact that it's shorter, it's just it just creates a much more dopamine and emotionally intense experience when you're consuming it and you can lose time when you're consuming it and you can lose time. Whereas when I watch YouTube videos at night and they're anywhere from eight minutes to 30 plus minutes, I'm not just like sort of like snapping out of it at the end, going like what just happened, like holy, like it's dark out you know like you just got broken got broken from a trance yesterday.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and at least the videos that I'm watching, which are, you know, maybe sort of reality documentary style and stuff, and they're just vlogging and documenting their process, their approach, what they found, how much they sold it for, what they're doing with it, what's popping off right now in that world, all the way to like a super lo-fi video about a person who flips a 96 toyota 4runner and it's just cool. It's like bought this on facebook marketplace, I'm gonna try to flip it for a profit and then buy something else. Yeah, but it's like the cool version of that it's not. I'm gonna buy a 1991 toyota trussell and in six months I'm gonna have a lamborghini. Let's go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, it's not that kind of stuff. And while like conceptually I think that's cool that you could flip a 90 toyota trussell into a lamborghini, that way of doing it, yeah, hey, everybody listen up. And it's like the ryan trahan, penny video series that everybody like copies, which I only know of because of some youtube channels that are essentially like a talk show, talking about what's going on in youtube, and all they want to talk about is the biggest YouTubers with the biggest views, because they want their channel to grow and get attention.
Speaker 2:So they'd know if it's Ryan Duran or Mr Beast or whatever like versus hey, this artistic vlogger from Chicago, you know, made a video and it's really compelling and she got a hundred thousand views and like this is valuable to your soul, not just like valuable to the commerce engine.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Anyway, a little bit of a no.
Speaker 3:I yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's what I talked about with my video. You know, the TikTok going crazy. I'm like I don't want. Yeah, I want that feeling, feeling, let's go crazy. I'm gonna go to every thrift store ever and find every apple has it?
Speaker 3:has it made you? Has it changed you? Has it made you like? Have you checked in frequently, like what is the like? How has it affected you psychologically?
Speaker 2:Well, I think, because Maybe give context too yeah.
Speaker 3:There's zero context. I just realized that too.
Speaker 2:So um, two weeks ago and I won't tell the whole story about what I got, but it was two weeks ago. I, you know, I, I, I regularly check thrift stores for just cool shit, whether it's records, cassette tapes, a vintage t-shirt like this one that I picked up this is for those listening. It's a Bruce Springsteen and the East street band concert shirt from like the like 2009 or something, and, uh, you know, I love me the boss. So, uh, I scoop that, you know. So I just check for stuff like that, and I also check for stuff that I can put in my friend Josh's store in the old market, obviously digital cameras that I can sell on eBay. So it's, it's like a little side hustle where sometimes I get something that I keep for my personal collection of whatever I'm, whatever collection it is, or sell it to make some money.
Speaker 3:What's really great, too, is if you've been following this show since the beginning you've seen the entire progression from the discovery of this to like the maturation.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, from not even thinking about yeah, like this wasn't a conversation, we even would have been, nope, slightly circled around, yeah.
Speaker 2:And more of the early episodes was when I bought when I got that camera at a thrift store in.
Speaker 2:Colorado. So, yeah, that set me on that path. So I go to the electronic section of the thrift store and I see a piece of retro Apple tech that is not as prominent Not a lot of people know about it and I bought it and, like, made a video about cleaning it and testing that it worked. The product was the Apple iPod hi-fi, so the video is like a three minute video. It's sort of a little bit of a background on what the piece of Apple tech is, how disgusting it was from the thrift store, whether or not it worked, and I cleaned it and then tested it. At the end, um, and that video has amassed like 780 plus thousand views in two weeks and I have gained two to three thousand followers on the platform. It's regularly getting more followers and comments and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:And so, with everything that we've talked about on this podcast, I have focused my intentions. With my channel and the content that I make. I kind of know what my boundaries are. I don't want that to hijack my emotions and make me create more content like that, getting more extreme, putting text on the screen, like just like homogenizing it with everybody else. I just kind of want to do my version of it and it's nothing super special. It's not like there's some weird thing I do in there. That's unlike anybody else. It's a camcorder and an iPhone and I just make a voiceover of what I'm doing. Super simple. I don't even put subtitles on the screen. I don't even want to deal with that fun. It was just fun, like, oh cool, this thing went, took off. You know you've got a product that probably stole most of the show because it wouldn't work. It's not going to work.
Speaker 2:On the TV that I just cleaned, a 13 inch TV that I made a video about, there was something intriguing. You know all those elements mixed together to create the right ingredients for people to be interested in watching it a certain amount and then you tick, tock, sends it out and more and more people watching it just keeps, keeps going. The tiktok app I'd have 99 notifications max you could have and I see all these followers adding and it's validating and it makes me feel like I know what I'm doing. But I know if I make a video about this tv or this old ipod like, it's not going to get as many views, so I have to find more shit. That's like super rare apple tech and I have to like do stuff to the video and I gotta change my voice and hey, everybody listen up.
Speaker 2:Like, just like, do all this dumb shit, to like to to make the videos more consistently, get that kind of those kinds of views, and then, when they don't go, okay, well, what did I do wrong? Okay, at three seconds I forgot to do this and then I didn't have the subtitle font was weird and the color isn't right. And psychologically, if you do this, like again staying on those, my values, my mission, my convictions with what I'm doing, with the content which, admittedly, is you know, promotes consumerism. I talk about retro stuff, like I'm curating these products.
Speaker 2:But I know that some people are going to go to eBay and buy an Apple iPod Hi-Fi because they saw my video and were like I'm really curious about that. Oh, it's only 80 bucks, I'm going to buy one and try it. Did you screenshot the prices? I know I didn't think to do that, but people were like, how much is it worth? And I'm like, well, the prices right now are like $100 to $ 150, but they might change because of this. Yeah, and that's. It sounds crazy, but it's like, you know, a video that gets close to a million views.
Speaker 2:I mean, you can really drive up the value of something.
Speaker 3:It really that's frustrating, though, because oh yeah. Like if it were to drive up the value of the product. But not one thing we talked about beforehand was like not driving because of the platform yeah like like your conversion rate of people that went to the the channel yeah and there could be other reasons for that, just like, oh, like consistency and like maybe it's that type of content there's just not enough, or things like that yeah but I I do feel like I've I've talked with several people who do use tiktok a lot, or I've thought about it more than than I have um, I don't really know anything about it to be like, yeah, I mean, I have like a general understanding.
Speaker 3:yep, I have a framework that I can fit it into. But the biggest critique on it I've heard is like it prioritizes the. We're going to have to talk about that. It prioritizes the, the algorithm and the content over the content maker yes. And, like you know, you saw that firsthand where you got a million views and you saw like a couple thousand people come over and you would think, and I'm not.
Speaker 2:I think, I'm with you.
Speaker 3:Your brain goes I would thought it would have been a lot more. Well, I mean, my brain goes like you know 10,000 would be, but more likely like 30,000 seems about what I would expect, whereas you know, maybe it's really good and you go somewhere between 30 and 100. Yeah, but like 3,000.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Seems Low Insane.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And then it makes me start to think like oh well, tiktok and all of these shorts platforms are manufacturing content or distributing content in a way that they're not manufacturing it, obviously, but they've created an incentive system to get other people to do that. But then how do you protect yourself against the downside of one particular creator leaving your platform, which was always like the issue right before these things reached like that's a good point gigascale yeah is you had.
Speaker 3:Oh well, this creator left the platform and it's dragged the platform down. Well, how do you make yourself immune to that? Well then, you can just create this platform where the content is what drives the engagement, not the people that are making it. So you're not there to watch the content, you're just there to do this. I don't even think you have to, you just sit content. You're just there to do this. I don't even think you have to, you just sit there.
Speaker 2:You're right, and what it is is the subject matter, is the high-level reason to watch retro Apple tech. There are people that are like I don't care who's making the videos, I just want to watch stuff on retro Apple tech.
Speaker 3:And maybe it's not even that specific of a labeling.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It could just be like tech with some kind of other identifier that the algorithm has picked up. Right, but like you, said the way.
Speaker 2:It's interesting because the way we talked about, like the Mr Beastification right, it's natural for us, as we create content and consume content, to be influenced by the content creators that are doing stuff that we entirely like, literally copying it or plagiarizing in a sense. Then I'll have an increased likelihood to get those vanity metrics that will validate me, maybe validate me to others who think what I'm doing is crazy. Give me the revenue. I want the lifestyle. I want, you know, the ability at the party to be like, yeah, I'm a YouTuber. Oh, really, how many subscribers. You know false humility. You know all that 2.3 million. You know what? Really All that shit. So, does 2.4 million? Yeah, does so. Does your point for me? Yeah, there's the algorithm and does he just? Does basically, like YouTube?
Speaker 2:Go, look, we know that YouTube studio is going to hit content creators with so much dopamine when they make a video that goes crazy, especially at that video was an emulation of another creator who is hot or has a lot of subscribers or whatever. Then just natural human tendency to imitate what's working for other people because of envy, jealousy, desire, all of that stuff. It's going to get homogenized to the point where there is no consolidation of power amongst a youtuber with a unique voice and a unique style and all that. That's going to permeate the culture. It's going to create homogenization or sort of like like the mr beastification of all content. So then it's, it's. It's not about mr beast or that cooking youtuber I mentioned, it's just about the, the, the, the content itself, cooking, whatever mr beast does, and all those videos, kind of video suggestions. What's interesting right now?
Speaker 3:yeah, which most of the time it's something zeitgeisty, right, like, and most of the time you're trying, you're testing things, it's like. It's like a good analogy is a large corporation which is kind of what a lot of? I mean, I, I get it. Youtube is a large corporation, right, but with a large corporation you get a lot of um, homogenous thinking, right, a lot of um. There's a aversion to risk. Yeah, there's an aversion to new ideas.
Speaker 3:There's an aversion to new ideas. There's an aversion to big personalities. There's an aversion to, um, like being an individual, like individuality. Yeah, and so we're just seeing that. But yes, youtube is the corporation and they've also managed to get like, you know, youtube. I guess if youtube's the corporation, then all of the employees are the creators, right, and now all of the employees are starting to act as if the corporation has reached some kind of a maturity right and so, yeah, you have this.
Speaker 3:you know you're looking at statistics of what's done well. Well, the next thing that's going to do well, uh, just by way of um, just by how, how that works, it's not going to be on that list of things that has done well, yep. So you're never going to find that thing if you're just rehashing these things.
Speaker 2:And will it be like sort of like? Um, just a cycle of a counterculture develops a different style of doing it and then it homogenizes to that. And then Rob yeah, probably I mean you could argue that that happens in music, that happens in television. Certain types of shows are doing well or a movie does really well. So then Hollywood makes a bunch of those kinds of movies. That gets exhausted.
Speaker 3:A new thing hits of movies that gets exhausted. A new thing hits the, the. The content thing is super interesting, though, because there are people that are very much addicted to yeah, I mean especially the shorts, right like I know, I know literally people in my life that are addicted to twitter or addicted to tiktok yeah or addicted to youtube or facebook yeah and I'm not like you can be like, oh, they're addicted to that. No, it's like they're addicted to like meth, like that's.
Speaker 3:That's the same, like it is having a negative yeah it's, it's causing negative effects on their, on their life, right? And you see, you wonder how many people are in that cycle. And then how do you clear that up if there's a mass number of people Like, do you just have to sacrifice a generation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3:It's a super negative thought and I tend to lean towards the positive, and I think there's just as many people who probably no, I don't. I think there are a concentrated group. People, though, who probably are not like I mean, you do see it, you see a some kind of a counterculture forming, or people just like I need to get my time back Right, or I need to get I'm going analog Right, but then yeah, you mentioned this like you worry about that, those things being co-opted and just turned into a different form of content as well, right, and I mean, I think what happens when that right?
Speaker 2:and then you know, that's when, when everybody has a camera and a way to edit and to put something out there, I mean you're, you're gonna have sort of a more intense perception of those cycles. I feel like you. Something like 3 million videos get uploaded to YouTube every day.
Speaker 3:That feels low to me. That's crazy. It does sound a little low right.
Speaker 2:It's like crazy at first and you're like wait a second. Yeah, I think I was just watching a YouTube video where they mentioned that and you know, are those the shelf life of those cycles. You know, it'll just be interesting to track all that stuff with you know, especially as you know shorts content, what's the vibe on shorts right now? Okay, subtitles are out fast cuts aren't everybody's using.
Speaker 2:Can't, like you're checking all these boxes of like what's the new thing that's emerging? It started with a counterculture, it became a trend. Now it's starting to, you know, really have virality with that style it is. It is funny though everybody's gonna adopt it. And then a new you know culture will well in contrast to shorts what you like. It is funny, though Everybody's going to adopt it. And then a new, you know culture will.
Speaker 3:Well, and and and contrast to shorts. What like? What did we see after the last like crazy cycle of um, like the last crazy political cycle, like what was? Like the big thing that came out of that? Suddenly, a bunch of old, like fucking clueless consultants figured out. Oh, people like podcasts, right? Yeah, oh, really, they like this thing that's that has been extremely popular with, you know, a large swath of the population for 25 years. Yeah, I mean not, obviously not 25 years, but it's been around for 20 years.
Speaker 3:Yep, I think a lot of people have been in like listening for 20 years.
Speaker 3:Oh, if we put somebody on a podcast circuit, they will be able to have more people hear them yeah that's crazy what's interesting is so and I just speaking of that is like that is almost like long-term, like I feel like I've seen more long-form youtube videos and you know, I I've listened to a ton of podcasts in my life that are over two hours, and audio books are resurgent Maybe. I mean, I don't know how resurgent they are, but they're steady. So I do think there is still shorts or just something that's. I don't know Shorts are. I've also just seen professionally a group of like a large group of people who were like, oh, that'll never catch on, right saturated in the, in the zeitgeist, enough that there wasn't any form of like moral apprehension to the thing.
Speaker 3:It was just not wanting to do something different yep and then they immediately were like oh well, now we have to be doing shorts yes right, you see that and I don't know. That's a bit of a different thing.
Speaker 2:But and the shorts content and when I say shorts, I don't know that's a bit of a different thing toward tiktok, because I feel like, of all the algorithms, I'm served up stuff that is more consistent with what I'm actually interested in and get value out of, rather than, oh, you watched three seconds of this random video. Now we're just gonna bombard you with all of that stuff, like youtube does.
Speaker 3:but for the shortest content. Youtube's the only. So I mean I guess youtube's really like the only thing I I use at this point. But I will clear my watch history. Yeah, on certain things on youtube. I do too, all the time to to not not get that, yeah, I mean I don't even use.
Speaker 3:I don't really like. I've been using the rss thing for three months at this point, but like it's still algorithmic on my tv, yep and um, you know, there's nothing worse than pulling it up on but like it's still algorithmic on my TV and um, you know, there's nothing worse than pulling it up on your TV and it's like, oh yeah, you watched one college world series game.
Speaker 1:All you care about is baseball now.
Speaker 3:Like awesome Oops Like exactly.
Speaker 2:Uh, and so when it comes to short form content, I ha, the creators that I have enjoyed are the ones that are like look, I'm just doing my thing. Like you can just tell they're just doing their thing, they're not doing shit.
Speaker 3:If YouTube wasn't the thing, they'd be doing. It on the other thing, yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's in the just the way that they make their videos. While it's recognizable that maybe some of like the lifestyle shorts creators do panning shot of the interior of the restaurant and then this and then a little voiceover section, and then they're like on camera saying something, you know that stuff's sort of timeless enough that it doesn't feel like this trendy thing that you're supposed to do in your shorts content. And so I sit there and go look, they're just sticking to their guns, they're just making what they want to see and they've got it dialed in and they're not wavering. And so, to circle back to my thing, that was my reaction to the viral video. Like, look, you're going to discover sort of new ideas for how you might tell your story or present what you did. Okay, but I'm not going to change my content and go okay, this video went viral.
Speaker 2:Now what do I need to do to make sure every single one does? Oh yeah, I need this color subtitle. I need to put it right here. I need to preview everything. Make sure every little image is like not on the user interface, all this crap. I need to preview everything. Make sure every little image is like not on the inner user interface, all this crap. I need to do these hashtags, dude. I don't give a shit about any of that, it's just like do you think that matters at any level?
Speaker 3:Like you know, I'm around a bunch of people all the time who were like, oh, it's got to be a certain level of polish, and that doesn't mean anything of quality, it totally just means it's got to fit the subjective taste of one or two people. Do you think there's something to like? Is there any level where suddenly you have to pay attention to those things, or is that just all my intuition? Is all of that's just kind of an illusion.
Speaker 2:I do too, I think, especially with our sensibilities and the things that we care about.
Speaker 3:My intuition is all of that's just kind of an illusion, like it's. I do too, I think, especially with our sensibilities and the things that we care about, and that's that's why I was asking, cause obviously, like you know, obviously sometimes I will be like this is the way that it is and it's not. It's just the way that I. I'm a very yeah.
Speaker 2:Look, I think there's there's two things. There's a business that wants quick, fast, immediate, short-term results and they're creating content, even if it's like a content creator, but they're thinking commerce.
Speaker 3:Say it's like Bank of America.
Speaker 2:Yeah, bank of America, or, honestly, like a little entrepreneurial content creator. That's like I wanted to grow. I sell this stuff and I'm going to use content creation to build a following attract and extract, scale to a million and sell this business.
Speaker 2:All of that stuff, yeah, all that entrepreneurial stuff, and not saying that that's cringy or not valid or whatever, and not saying that they're all looking for short-term results. But whatever that focus is on those results that's going to move you towards those things. On those results, that's going to move you towards those things. Seo, you know, SEO back in the day now hashtags or the description like how to format it. What's too much information? What comment do I write? Do I pin the comment? What color tones are most psychologically soothing to the watcher?
Speaker 3:You know, like all of this stuff, when are you placing your call to action at the end of the video? Call to action.
Speaker 2:Like how are you building mystery? At the beginning you got to have it eight seconds, like all that stuff. You know that's. That's an approach that those people want to use and it may be effective on certain audiences. All that I see it and I just go this is bullshit. I'm moving on to something else. Like you're dead to me, um. So I think there's, there's that. And then I think you have people that they're strong, artistic or creative impul metrics, short-term benefits needing a scarcity mindset.
Speaker 2:I have to watch out for this. I'm low on revenue, I haven't made enough money and I need to promote these products or I need to make some videos that get my channel some heat, and so I'm going to. My instinct is to do this stuff, but I don't think that's going to get me there, so I'm going to do more of what these guys are doing or these gals are doing, or what these businesses are doing. I'm going to start caring about that, just distilling everything down to a fundamental viral human reaction and I'm going to. I'm going to. I'm going to make, gonna make my. I'm gonna make my mcdonald's cheeseburger instead of this thing. That's a burger, but it's like I've got this crazy idea smash patty, this type of cheese, grilled onions. You know this crazy mustard thing or this this uh umami thing I had in japan. You know what mean Like coming up with like this new cool take on something where when someone takes a bite, they're like this is both beautiful and does something to me psychologically, chemically, whatever that like is really powerful.
Speaker 3:But the first thing that I care about is someone really put some soul into this thing is that just it's different or like, because you can make a, you know, quote, unquote, mr beast video and put a lot of thought and time into it. A lot of those videos do have a lot of like. We're talking production teams and do you?
Speaker 2:mean the more like writers, analytical thought and sort of like yeah, I guess soul, like yeah, how do you define it?
Speaker 3:is I guess what I'm soul to me is like it's.
Speaker 2:It's a little bit more like magic it's. You have instincts and impulses. You have your entire life experience?
Speaker 2:I don't know if it's random, because because you are crafting something, but you're going more on instinct, you're going a little bit more on. I've consumed all this stuff. This thing isn't there. I have this idea or have this feeling or I feel drawn or pulled to this, whatever, and I'm just, I'm going to make something hyper analytic approach, which is alright. I read all the psychology books. I read the history of all advertising from all time immemorial. I know that people just headline these words. You know like we just react to this stuff in certain ways and you know like I figured out the 11 herbs and spices that KFC puts in their shit.
Speaker 2:That makes it whatever you know, um, like, I'm just gonna do that. You know, you know I think everybody listening, you know you hear that out loud and you're like, yeah, that doesn't interest me.
Speaker 3:I want like the, I want to like stop by the roadside place in mississippi where the grandma makes like fried chicken in a pan, and it's like everything points to this being terrible and it's like I always get caught up because I like to think like oh man, well, everybody, every human, is like soul and even like uh, there's some things in here where he's talking about like, like, you have to trust that the, you know, the intuitions and thoughts that you hold in your own head are present in every man.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like that's that, like that is genius, or like often in genius, we find our own disregarded thoughts Like um this idea that I mean. That's that's how I was quote unquote taught.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like that's that from the people that I I've always followed or that have taught me the most about. You know, creating it's to um, it, it, it, searched deeply, look closely, pay attention to the things that you would typically not pay attention to, and try to find those things that transcend the moment, that are a bit more universal, and then lean into those things, and that that's typically what has the most impact. And now I'm laying this out cause I have those, you know, I have that where, like, that's how I approach everything, right, I try to, and I feel like that's the way I see things. And then I sit here and I look around and I'm like, obviously there's an audience for, like, mr Beast videos.
Speaker 3:Yes, absolutely, and it's way bigger than the audience of like this podcast or just some like thrifting channel or some like analog tech, like there's a reason analog tech isn't just tech, right, because enough people moved on from it, right? So, like, maybe you have an idea on that, that, can you know sort that a bit more. But you see what, like, I guess what I'm trying to say is yeah, I look and I, I, I romanticize things and I'm no, it's not obviously how it is. Like, obviously the world is in a different place because of these. Things are niche, whatever you would call niche.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like, and you know, that doesn't mean it's not true. It doesn't mean that, you know, maybe it's directionally right, I don't know. But um, yeah, help, yeah, help me score that. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2:I'm still trying to climb inside of it a little bit.
Speaker 3:Is it the National Enquirer thing? But I mean, there's people that are unironically watching Mr Beast videos. Then there's people that are doing it just because they see dollar signs. Sure.
Speaker 2:I mean.
Speaker 3:But it's like trash TV. There's a lot of tv like any like honestly, I was, I was home um over christmas or no, recently, even even more recent and, um, my mom was recovering from she had like a shoulder surgery and was recovering and she was on a bunch of pain meds and just had netflix playing and I was like I kind of feel like the only way that these shitty ass netflix movies get any kind of audience is because it's just people that are recovering from surgery on pain meds. It's funny that you say that like something that I wanted to talk about. How do these things get it's? It's like but I'm being right, like a little bit self-righteous about it, because it's like there's just some terrible stuff that is getting a lot of views, so there has to be an audience for it d, the netflix thing is specific and I don't want this necessary to take us away from the main thrust of what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:But this is sort of as as a as an addendum to that point you just said. These terrible Netflix shows must be sort of made for people that are recovering from surgery and like aren't their full present self watching this thing.
Speaker 3:It's just background noise, it's like. It's like you have now. Did you just did you just discover this idea?
Speaker 2:Like right now, like kind of in thinking through it, like, oh well, no, I mean, you haven't had that, it's like you have-. Now did you just discover this idea, like right now, like kind of in thinking through it. Oh well, no, I don't think you haven't had that thought before.
Speaker 3:It's like CNN or ESPN or Fox News or like any of these, like their business model is literally background noise. So, it's put it on in the airport and leave it on. And if enough airports leave it on, then we're going to make revenue.
Speaker 2:Have you heard about the concept of second screen? Mm-mm, okay.
Speaker 3:Is it like just noise, like how people usually leave the television on Visual music Interesting, Okay go.
Speaker 2:So I've read some articles and watched some videos with quotes from Netflix executives talking about how something that was being made for their platform whether it was at the script level or like the rough edit or whatever executives are saying this isn't really second screen enough. Yeah, they want to simplify the piece of work.
Speaker 3:Oh, so it can be you can be doing something primarily, but it is like Seinfeld reruns of the Office and it's those shows are great main character.
Speaker 2:Re-say what they're doing in in this at like minute 23. Yeah, because the people that tuned out on first screen and like tune back in on second screen, like we need to kind of get them up to speed that's just disgusting and they're like literally engineering content on netflix.
Speaker 3:Oh, it doesn't surprise me better for second screen. Yeah, so, oh no, it's. It's like in any action movie you have so it's even you you have the very much like restate the plot very didactically, restate everything that the audience needs to know and explain it. You even had that with network TV shows, even ones that were around for a while. Csi, Law and Order that's what that was. That's disgusting.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 3:It's so fucking gross so you have.
Speaker 2:You have a mr b side, that is, don't let them blink. We don't want them to blink because they'll. They're afraid they're gonna miss something and we want them jacked in.
Speaker 3:They're gonna watch every second of it, all the way to the end. I've never heard that term. Second screen, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So it makes sense though, yeah and, just like you said, you know this isn't sort of like a new thing. Yeah, airports just want to be background noise or have background noise. Put the screens up bars with TV screens everywhere, which is annoying. I'm almost hyper fox and cnn, because they just got stupid.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and now nobody like you can't put either one of those on in any place if you don't want to. But I think the quote a lot of people.
Speaker 2:I think the quote from the netflix is f was something I believe it was. This isn't second screen enough, yeah, and so they're like asking people who go to make a film yeah, and I think they're approaching it with soul and artistry and they're running into these roadblocks of you need to make this simpler, easier to follow moments where the audience can be caught back up to speed so they like don't feel like they missed a bunch, I hate to say it, like that's what you get for getting in bed with Netflix, or like and what their incentives are like.
Speaker 3:Hey look, we're not here to. We're not a 24 trying to make like the best films that are going to be watching a theater where the phone is not allowed to make this the new golden era of filmmaking and storytelling.
Speaker 2:We just want our shit on with as many subscribers as possible, and if part of getting subscribers is to have visual music that soothes people when they're working or whatever the fuck they're doing, great. And there's also we do it you know, and I'm not saying like we're bad or whatever, but we desire that. I like to have stuff on. We use second screens. I like to have I've been playing all the time vhs all of that stuff.
Speaker 2:But what pains me is that someone watches me do that. I watch you. I go alex is, he's got this on. There's something here, there's something happening. I'm gonna start making content. Yeah, that makes him psychologically prone to watching my second, see, but my mind, my mind goes for.
Speaker 3:Anything that I'm consuming that doesn't have anything to offer is literally wasted life, like that's wasted energy, that's wasted brain power, that's wasted life yeah like this extremely valuable thing.
Speaker 3:We like that's what I don't get Right. Like movies Like if I can have something on in the background, like I'm not going to like, or even just if I can watch a movie. Like I'm not going to watch a movie If, if, if, like there's nothing interesting about it. Like even if a movie is total shit, if if somehow there's like an idea there that maybe was explored and I'll watch it Right, but if it's just like a bad movie.
Speaker 3:I know it's pretty easy to find like, oh, this is just a mediocre movie, I will. I just will never watch it. And it's not like. At first it sounds like, oh, that's just being snobby, but it's not.
Speaker 2:It's just like we are so lucky to have life and like to be here for the extremely limited time and, like we have no idea what's going to happen and it's just using that precious, would want to tell these people, like if they're observing us, we're in a focus group or they're watching us, you know, whatever we do, our habits, because they want to reverse, engineer them to sell more bullshit.
Speaker 3:I want to sit there and go. We're not the. We're not the.
Speaker 2:I know they might see people that turn on the new Chris Pratt movie on Amazon Prime and it's the second screen for them. Yeah, like they set out to watch it something. The phone pulls them in because of shorts or whatever and they just kind of check in with it as they're watching it for the first time. To me that is just like—.
Speaker 3:Oh, I know a lot of people who don't have the attention span to get through it.
Speaker 2:It is soul-crushing right Now for me if I'm doing a second screen thing, and this is where, if I'm Netflix or whatever, I want to make the content that I make second screen because of this, if I'm sitting there and I'm like I got to work today but I need to have a vibe going on where I am.
Speaker 2:Every VHS that I have or whatever I put on my Apple TV or whatever, is something that I own for a reason. And then if I choose that movie like apocalypse now, I just want apocalypse now on, because there is an energy that emanates from that film when you combine it with the energy that emanates from older tech vs vcr, vhs, whatever the sound, all of that, that environment you might click in and it'll give you something, that's right.
Speaker 3:You might click in on accident to a random spot and it's like here's a little nugget, here's a little gift, or oh wait, I just caught the.
Speaker 2:You know this part of the river sequence. Or the opening, you know the opening sequence where he's, you know, in the hotel room, you know. Or the end, you know, like, hold on, this is the part where Dennis Hopper, you know all that, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Like I want to have a second screen on because of the magic and soul behind what that is, and that's why the most successful second screens are not this bullshit that Netflix puts out. That's why the most successful ones are the Office or Parks, and Rec or Seinfeld or Scrubs.
Speaker 2:I'm never going to put something on that I've never watched before. Yeah, if I have Seinfeld on, that's an energy scrubs. I'm never gonna put something on that I've never watched before.
Speaker 1:yeah, either either if I have seinfeld on, that's an energy.
Speaker 3:Yes, if I have tcm on, that's an energy, that's right. If I have a movie that I love on which you know that's the only reason I fucking buy any movies from amazon is yep, because okay, well, at least I can throw this on and that's have it, and that's the short-term thinking that they don't fucking get.
Speaker 2:and and it drives me nuts it's hey, we just accept the fact that nobody has attention spans and we're going to make shit. That is visual music. What is music? Oh, music is like elevator music. Okay, so when you're riding in the elevator, or at the mall, like we got to have something going on. Yeah, and so we need something. Just space filler and like yeah, and so we need something, just space filler, essentially, and like yeah, yeah, it's like you know, and I'm sure there's like a lot of intentionality behind it.
Speaker 1:It'd be fun to kind of like like the people that made music, not the musicians.
Speaker 2:But like the people were like okay, well, this mall or this elevator is missing something. Yeah. Like people can't just stand in silence in the elevator, they'll kill each other, or like someone will fart in my, you know whatever. Like you gotta have something going on, like we gotta. We gotta cultivate a vibe, but a vibe that like chills people the fuck out yeah, oh, it's like.
Speaker 3:It's like weather channel, like have you seen that? And I'm a weather channel and it's just literally reruns from the weather channel from like 1992, yeah, so dope, then like is netflix going?
Speaker 2:hey, listen, see if everybody's on netflix though hold on.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry, I don't want to. I don't want to cut you off. If I'm netflix, though, instead of paying some fucking you know poor slaved director yeah to make some dog shit movie that they're going to rep for the rest of their life and that is going to serve absolutely nothing other than fucking paying a couple of day rates and churning out some shit box on the internet. Just go buy the Weather Channel archive and put the lo-fi elevator vibes.
Speaker 1:You could do that for a quarter of the cost and that's music Right.
Speaker 3:Second screen experience vibes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but Netflix is just going like look everybody's on their phones man, like we can't compete with Reels and Shorts and TikTok.
Speaker 2:Like it's just the data shows everybody's on their phones, or, if they're not on their phones, they're wondering when do I get to pick up my phone? So fuck it. The best that we can aspire to is that they'll choose our shit to they. Like the actor, the thumbnail's good. I'm in the mood for an action movie, this Chris Pratt thing on Amazon, and I'm not saying that of his current movies or the whatever. No, I, I'm with you. I'm with you music, but but that's like they're just like yeah, like let's just have like something on. That's kind of cool, it's not super expensive. Uh, we'll restate the plot. Every you know nine minutes and the people that are just have shit on while they're on their phone. Like they'll, they'll just, they'll watch the whole thing hallmark movies are kind of the same thing, right?
Speaker 3:Hallmark movies where it's just the same. There's something about those Kitchy plot and it's. It's just Christmas.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Muzak, I mean there's some yeah. Yeah, there's definitely like like hey, I'm wrapping presents for on the Hallmark channel.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know like I ain't watching it.
Speaker 3:Hallmark is. I mean the movies are shite but it is like adjacent quality to TCM.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like you throw TCM on just because it's like, it's just a nice companion, sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's some you know, and maybe I'm wrong, but I have a feeling that there's something, there's like this odd combination of commerce and earnestness with the hallmark that like kind of works. Like we want people to be amped about the hallmark channel in december and we want them to either have this shit on or to actually watch it yeah and even if it's campy or it's a little formulae or very formulae, or whatever like it's there's, if we want there to be a feeling like man, how are they going to do this formula?
Speaker 2:yeah, the princess and the thing whatever but then, like you can, maybe some earnestness, you know, or they get some people that are starting out in their careers and they're able to inject the just like a touch of soul, like I'd be cool to have this or it'd be cool to have that, even if the Hallmark people are like, no, let's just kind of keep it simple, it's whatever. And I wonder if they've just kind of caught this special thing, the magic of Christmas, the commerce of it.
Speaker 3:It's interesting because Hallmark doesn't really work outside of Christmas.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 3:Like I mean, does any? Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:And christmas no, like I mean, does any? Yeah right, and like and this is the other thing too like they kind of found out was working, maybe they doubled down on it. Um, wasn't there something too? Or like uh, oh, it was a lifetime movie, lifetime kind of had the same thing I grew up.
Speaker 2:My mom watched, yeah, lifetime movies every day and it got to a point where everything's the same, like infidelity, murder it got to a point, though, where there was a moment where will ferrell and whoever he was working with I don't know if it was adam- at the time, but they did. They were like for us to like tap into something cool that's happening in the zeitgeist. That's kind of a vibe we need to make a lifetime movie, yeah, but it's not going to be a parody like it's just a real lifetime movie.
Speaker 3:it's like we're just going to make a lifetime movie yeah and we but it's not going to be a parody, it's just a real lifetime movie.
Speaker 2:It's like we're just going to make a lifetime movie, yeah, and we're going to make it fun. We're going to like do the formula.
Speaker 3:It's not bad, right, I mean it's rough.
Speaker 1:People are going to talk about it.
Speaker 2:It's interesting.
Speaker 1:They're going to think it's funny.
Speaker 2:They're going. Now there is a commercial result that is desired in that. But then I think there's also soul. Will Ferrell goes, they just go, man. Wouldn't it be funny to make a Lifetime movie? Yeah, Like that starts it and then they go. Actually that'd be kind of smart because it would do this, but then we would make it seriously. There's a combo there that makes it palatable, versus we don't care about any of the soul, we just want the bullshit. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And that's see, and I, we sit here and we're like complaining and I'm just like part of me is just like what you like, and then this is always going to be a thing like commercial pop has always been a thing. Yeah, this is always going to be a thing like commercial pop has always been a thing. Yeah, I mean not always, but as long as you know, contemporary american culture has existed since 19, you know, 1950.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've had this some version of yeah, I mean I've watched the prices right in the summer every day at 10 o'clock in the morning you know, like is it extreme?
Speaker 3:no, that was, that was all right. That was always the thing. When, like I missed school, it was like, oh dude, price is right you get to watch.
Speaker 2:Yeah, every price is right. Every time I stayed home from school, yep, that was a I mean, it was a non-starter and you know they could have stumbled across that formula. They could have sort of taken what every game, what we're complaining?
Speaker 3:about is just the fragmentation of that idea to other platforms well like it was. It was a bit more fixed. It was like shitty magazines and then shitty tv. And now we're like oh well, it's, it's an infiltrated youtube and it's like it's. No, it's just info. It's the same exact thing the thing.
Speaker 2:the thing is, you know, certainly people, you know game shows came out and everybody kind of made their versions of it or whatever. But it would be like, if the price is right, caught on on youtube and like 10 million content creators made their version of the price is right and it's like basically the same. Yeah, kind of Kind of different, a little different voice, a little different color font, you know, but this stuff, but it's like it's basically the same.
Speaker 2:I mean, and a lot of these content creators are literally plagiarizing, I mean beat for beat, and now they're even using AI to do it They'll literally do take the transcript from a YouTube video, put it in an AI voiceover thing and then make the exact same video that a real person made to co-opt the virality of it happening with instagram and tiktok and youtube, and it's happening everywhere because it's just like especially for things that are kind of topical, like instructional, topical, yeah, why?
Speaker 3:yeah, and to me this is where, and it's like, we can sit here and get like fresh.
Speaker 2:I, I part of me with this stuff I feel like old man, old man yelling at cloud. I'm excited about it because I'm like this stuff is reaching, if it hasn't already, a saturation point that's going to spawn.
Speaker 3:Is it though I?
Speaker 2:think it's-.
Speaker 3:Part of me thinks it's just going to saturate into more of the same.
Speaker 2:And it's possible.
Speaker 3:We're playing the same game as the National Enquirer and it's always going to be a market. Maybe I see the argument, for maybe we get sick of this and then it just breaks it forever. But God, how great that would be If the Edward Bernays.
Speaker 2:People get their way. It doesn't happen. They all toe the line. They focus on their desires. They want to be viral YouTubers, they want to be. They want those views. They want to be viral YouTubers, they want to be. They want those views. They want those subs, they want all that stuff. We drive that silver play button down their throats in the background of every goddamn YouTuber who's earned it. They're going to toe the line. They're going to make the content that sells the shit, that gets us the attention, that sells the ads, that keeps the whole machine going. Yeah, I think they might break.
Speaker 3:There is an argument that they just break the machine that keeps the whole machine going, homogenizes the shit out of it. I think they might break. There is an argument that they just break the machine, though.
Speaker 2:Well, but YouTube also holds the key. So you hear a video about the algorithm. They go yep, that's part of a counterculture.
Speaker 3:We're going to kill it, yeah, but I can put that up on my website, sure, if I want, and you know I could put ad revenue behind that and you know, if I place it right they're not going to. So I just like I don't think. I mean, look, I completely. I understand that platforms, sensor based on and sensors like such a overused term. It's been like over politicized, but no, that's literally what platforms do. This is inconvenient to what we're trying to sell. Nobody gets to see this. It's what you would do if, if you're you know like it's. It's what a parent does if their kid says something that's inconvenient to their how they run their household, you will. It's just how humans are wired.
Speaker 3:Yep, it's terrible, it's shit, I know but, it sucks and we should absolutely try to make that not possible, but that happens and um yeah I mean, it's just like yeah, like my video, I could put it on.
Speaker 3:They might break the system, though, like they might break, like if it gets shitty enough. People are just gonna be like, fuck this, I'm just going to go, like, play with my dog, yeah, you will help you, yes, you hope, you hope. Maybe that's not true, but eventually, like if all of these things continue to get shittier and shittier and shittier and shittier and shitty and they are it's just like what? When is the point where this just explodes and it's like I'm going to go play with my dog, I'm going to go see a movie with some friends. This is just this is.
Speaker 1:It had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer. With somebody,
