53. The Terrible Master: On Ego, Perception, and the Choice to See Differently

We look at  David Foster Wallace's "This is Water" commencement speech, examining its central themes of awareness, ego death, and the daily struggle against our "default settings." What starts as a discussion of the speech evolves into a broader exploration of how we navigate modern life—from the challenge of maintaining consciousness in consumer culture to the difficulty of having genuine conversations without blind certainty.

We explore the paradox of participation versus checking out: how do we engage with contemporary media, technology, and culture while maintaining critical awareness? Through examples ranging from Netflix's "second screen" content to our own consumption of nostalgia-driven blockbusters, we grapple with questions of authenticity, discipline, and the constant work required to see beyond our self-centered perspective. The conversation touches on everything from movie criticism and artistic integrity to the design of modern attention-capture systems and the challenge of curating meaningful experiences in an age of infinite distraction. -Ai

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to "This Is Water" Speech
• 4:08 This Is Water - DFW
• 25:22 What We Choose to Worship
• 43:23 Breaking Free From Default Settings
• 59:51 Finding Beauty in Everyday Places
• 1:27:19 The Challenge of Living Mindfully
• 1:41:18 Balancing Art, Commerce and Perception

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

It had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer.

Speaker 2: 0:13

I listened to it last night first time in quite a bit. Four or five years three or four years, obviously we just listened to it again, ordered the little book printout of it too, just it's a nice yeah to me.

Speaker 3: 0:32

Uh, I think of two things. I think of the phrase ego death and I think, uh, of course, a popular movie gotta always contextualize stuff into movies. For me, groundhog day, how so? Um, someone who is a character, phil connors, who is so consumed with him being the center of the universe that he has no awareness of his, of anything else going on around him, and the universe curses him with experiencing the same day over and over, and, over and over again, until he finally goes this is all water. Yeah, and that is the magic of that movie. Yeah, you can, you know, explore its deeper layers. But ego death, I think that is um, kind of uh could you imagine getting that?

Speaker 2: 1:31

that's your commencement speech? Yeah, all right, I know like. Yeah, pretty much now the the pretext to that. I'm pretty sure later that year he actually committed suicide, did he? I'm pretty firmly in the camp of. It's one of those things where it's like the message can be right, but he still might have never been able to distill it Right, and I think it's hard to argue with that. Yeah, there's a message, no.

Speaker 3: 2:08

I agree.

Speaker 2: 2:10

Pretty. The the part that hit too was um, you know you talked about the SUV thing and just these little, these little tokens of life experience and like my mom was in a car accident like a little over a year ago and I mean, yeah, she was, she's one of those people like she got the suv because she's more protection, couldn't get into a car again yeah they're like yeah, you just need to get something that's gonna, that you can have confidence in, and I don know.

Speaker 2: 2:43

just little things like that come through life, come through life experience, and you have to learn the hard way or it just takes time.

Speaker 3: 2:50

It takes being in that situation, but yeah, a uh, and that's the, the, the real challenge of your growth, uh, through this life, and hopefully the consequences you know uh, through this life, and hopefully the consequences you know uh, stack up enough to where you start building that awareness. It's uh, it's, it's not easy, Um, and it's tough. I think you know, something that has been difficult for me is and we talked about this a little bit in pre-show sort of that feeling of like wanting people to come along with you or to sort of be in proximity to you while you journey through life. It's difficult for me when I'm around people, and I'm not saying that, I am like, oh, I'm fully formed, fully aware, All the work is done, Ego death is achieved, I'm good to go. You did it, I did it. I'm the wise fish, you know, letting all the youngsters know, you know what, the shortcut to the meaning of life, the capital T truth, as he says.

Speaker 4: 4:08

If anybody feels like perspiring, I'd invite you to go ahead, because I'm sure going to. In fact I'm going to get a hickey right here. Greetings, thanks and congratulations to Kenyon's graduating class of 2005. There are these two young fish swimming along and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way who nods at them and says morning, boys, how's the water? And the two young fish swim on for a bit and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes what the hell is water?

Speaker 4: 4:45

This is a standard requirement of US commencement speeches the deployment of didactic, little parable-ish stories. The story thing turns out to be one of the better, less bullshitty conventions of the genre. But if you're worried that I plan to present myself here as the wise older fish explaining what water is to you younger fish, please don't be. I am not the wise older fish explaining what water is to you younger fish, please don't be, I am not the wise old fish. The point of the fish story is merely that the most obvious, important realities are often the ones that are hardest to see and talk about. Stated as an English sentence, of course, this is just a banal platitude, but the fact is that in the day-to-day trenches of adult existence, banal platitudes can have a life-or-death importance, or so I wish to suggest to you on this dry and lovely morning. Of course, the main requirement of speeches like this is that I'm supposed to talk about your liberal arts education's meaning, to try to explain why the degree you're about to receive has actual human value instead of just a material payoff. So let's talk about the single most pervasive cliché in the commencement speech genre, which is that a liberal arts education is not so much about filling you up with knowledge as it is about quote teaching you how to think. If you're like me as a student, you've never liked hearing this, and you tend to feel a bit insulted by the claim that you've needed anybody to teach you how to think since the fact that you even got admitted to a college. This good seems like proof that you already know how to think turns out not to be insulting at all, because the really significant education in thinking that we're supposed to get in a place like this isn't really about the capacity to think, but rather about the choice of what to think about. If your total freedom of choice regarding what to think about seems too obvious to waste time discussing. I'd ask you to think about fish and water and to bracket for just a few minutes your skepticism about the value of the totally obvious.

Speaker 4: 6:48

Here's another didactic little story. There are these two guys sitting together in a bar in the remote Alaskan wilderness. One of the guys is religious, the other's an atheist, and the two are arguing about the existence of God with that special intensity that comes after about the fourth beer. And the atheist says look, it's not like I don't have actual reasons for not believing in God, it's not like I haven't ever experimented with the whole God and prayer thing. Just last month I got caught away from camp in that terrible blizzard and I was totally lost and I couldn't see a thing, and it was 50 below. And so I tried it. I fell to my knees in the snow and cried out oh God, if there is a God, I'm lost in this blizzard and I'm going to die if you don't help me. And now in the bar the religious guy looks at the atheist all puzzled. Well then, you must believe. Now he says After all, here you are alive. The atheist just rolls his eyes. No man, all that was was a couple Eskimos happened to come wandering by and they showed me the way back to camp.

Speaker 4: 7:51

It's easy to run this story through a kind of standard liberal arts analysis the exact same experience can mean two totally different things to two different people, given those people's two different belief templates and two different ways of constructing meaning from experience. Because we prize tolerance and diversity of belief, nowhere in our liberal arts analysis do we want to claim that one guy's interpretation is true and the other guy's is false or bad, which is fine. Except we also never end up talking about just where these individual templates and beliefs come from meaning, where they come from inside the two guides, as if a person's most basic orientation toward the world and the meaning of his experience were somehow just hardwired, like height or shoe size, or automatically absorbed from the culture like language. As if how we construct meaning were not actually a matter of personal, intentional choice. Plus, there's the matter of arrogance. The non-religious guy is so totally certain in his dismissal of the possibility that the passing Eskimos had anything to do with his prayer for help. True, there are plenty of religious people who seem arrogantly certain of their own interpretations too. They're probably even more repulsive than atheists, at least to most of us. But religious, dogmatist problem is exactly the same as the story's unbeliever, blind certainty, a closed-mindedness that amounts to an imprisonment so total that the prisoner doesn't even know he's locked up.

Speaker 4: 9:28

The point here is that I think this is one part of what teaching me how to think is really supposed to mean to be just a little less arrogant, to have just a little critical awareness about myself and my certainties, because a huge percentage of the stuff that I tend to be automatically certain of is it turns out totally wrong and deluded. I have learned this the hard way, as I predict you graduates will too. Here is just one example of the total wrongness of something I tend to be automatically sure of. Everything in my own immediate experience supports my deep belief that I am the absolute center of the universe, the realist, most vivid and important person in existence. We rarely talk about this sort of natural basic self-centeredness because it's so socially repulsive, but it's pretty much the same for all of us. It is our default setting. Much the same for all of us. It is our default setting, hardwired into our boards at birth.

Speaker 4: 10:28

Think about it. There is no experience you have had that you are not at the absolute center of the world as you experience. It is there in front of you or behind you, to the left or right of you, on your TV or your monitor, and so on. Other people's thoughts and feelings have to be communicated to you somehow, but your own are so immediate, urgent, real. Please don't worry that I'm getting ready to lecture you about compassion or other-directedness or all the so-called virtues. This is not a matter of virtue. It's a matter of my choosing to do the work of somehow altering or getting free of my natural, hardwired default setting, which is to be deeply and literally self-centered and to see and interpret everything through this lens of self. People who can adjust their natural default setting this way are often described as being well-adjusted, which I suggest to you is not an accidental term.

Speaker 4: 11:27

Given the triumphant academic setting here. An obvious question is how much of this work of adjusting our default setting involves actual knowledge or intellect. This question gets very tricky. Probably the most dangerous thing about an academic education, at least in my own case, is that it enables my tendency to over-intellectualize stuff, to get lost in abstract arguments inside my head instead of simply paying attention to what's going on right in front of me. Paying attention to what is going on inside me. As I'm sure you guys know by now, it is extremely difficult to stay alert and attentive instead of getting hypnotized by the constant monologue inside your own head, maybe happening right now.

Speaker 4: 12:11

Twenty years after my own graduation, I have come gradually to understand that the liberal arts cliché about teaching you how to think is actually shorthand for a much deeper, more serious idea. Learning how to think really means learning how to exercise some control over how and what you think. It means being conscious and aware enough to choose what you pay attention to and to choose how you construct meaning from experience. Because if you cannot exercise this kind of choice in adult life, you will be totally hosed. Think of the old cliche about quote the mind being an excellent servant but a terrible master. This, like many clichés so lame and unexciting on the surface, actually expresses a great and terrible truth. It is not the least bit coincidental that adults who commit suicide with firearms almost always shoot themselves in the head. They shoot the terrible master, and the truth is that most of these suicides are actually dead long before they pull the trigger. And I submit that this is what the real, no bullshit value of your liberal arts education is supposed to be about how to keep from going through your comfortable, prosperous, respectable adult life dead unconscious, a slave to your head and to your natural default setting of being uniquely, completely imperially alone day in and day out.

Speaker 4: 13:42

That may sound like hyperbole or abstract nonsense. Let's get concrete. The plain fact is that you graduating seniors do not yet have any clue what day in, day out really means. There happen to be whole large parts of adult American life that nobody talks about in commencement speeches. One such part involves boredom, routine and petty frustration. The parents and older folks here will know all too well what I'm talking about.

Speaker 4: 14:12

By way of example, let's say it's an average adult day and you get up in the morning, go to your challenging white collar college graduate job and you work hard for eight or ten hours and at the end of the day you're tired and somewhat stressed and all you want is to go home and have a good suffer and maybe unwind for an hour and then hit the sack early because of course you have to get up the next day and do it all again. But then you remember there's no food at home. You haven't had time to shop this week because of your challenging job, and so now after work you have to get in your car and drive to the supermarket. It's the end of a work day and the traffic is apt to be very bad, so getting to the store takes way longer than it should. And when you finally get there the supermarket is very crowded because of course it's the time of day when all the other people with jobs also try to squeeze in some grocery shopping, and the store is hideously fluorescently lit and infused with soul-killing muzak or corporate pop, and it's pretty much the last place you want to be.

Speaker 4: 15:10

But you can't just get in and quickly out. You have to wander all over the huge over-lit stores, confusing aisles, to find the stuff you want, and you have to maneuver your junkie cart through all these other tired, hurried people with carts, et cetera, et etc, cutting stuff out, because it's a long ceremony and eventually you get all your supper supplies, except now it turns out there aren't enough checkout lanes open, even though it's the end of the day rush. So the checkout line is incredibly long, which is stupid and infuriating. But you can't take your frustration out on the frantic lady working the register, who is overworked at a job whose daily tedium and meaninglessness surpasses the imagination of any of us here at a prestigious college. But anyway, you finally get to the checkout line's front and you pay for your food and get told to have a nice day in a voice that is the absolute voice of death. And then you have to take your creepy, flimsy plastic bags of groceries in your cart, with the one crazy wheel that pulls madly to the left, all the way out through the crowded, bumpy, littery parking lot and then you have to drive all the way home through slow, heavy, suv-intensive, rush-hour traffic, etc. Etc. Everyone here has done this, of course, but it hasn't yet been part of you graduates' actual life routine Day after week after month after year, but it will be. And many more dreary, annoying, seemingly meaningless routines besides.

Speaker 4: 16:39

But that is not the point. The point is that petty, frustrating crap like this is exactly where the work of choosing is going to come in, because the traffic jams and crowded aisles and long checkout lines give me time to think, and if I don't make a conscious decision about how to think and what to pay attention to, I'm going to be pissed and miserable every time I have to shop, because my natural default setting is the certainty that situations like this are really all about me, about my hungriness and my fatigue and my desire to just get home and it's going to seem for all the world like everybody else is just in my way. And who are all these people in my way? And look at how repulsive most of them are and how stupid and cow-like and dead-eyed and non-human they seem in the checkout line. Or at how annoying and rude it is that people are talking loudly on cell phones in the middle of the line and look at how deeply personally unfair this is.

Speaker 4: 17:37

Or, of course, if I'm in a more socially conscious liberal arts form of my default setting, I can spend time in the end-of-the-day traffic being disgusted about all the huge, stupid lane-blocking SUVs and Hummers and V12 pickup trucks burning their wasteful, selfish 40-gallon tanks of gas, and I can dwell on the fact that the patriotic or religious bumper stickers always seem to be on the biggest, most disgustingly selfish vehicles driven by the ugliest, most inconsiderate and aggressive drivers. And I can think about how our children's children will despise us for wasting all the future's fuel and probably screwing up the climate, and how spoiled and stupid and selfish and disgusting we all are and how modern consumer society just sucks, and so on and so forth. You get the idea. If I choose to think this way in the store and on the freeway, fine, lots of us do. Except, thinking this way tends to be so easy and automatic that it doesn't have to be a choice, it is my natural default setting. It's the automatic way that I experience the boring, frustrating, crowded parts of adult life, when I'm operating on the automatic, unconscious belief that I am the center of the world and that my immediate needs and feelings are what should determine the world's priorities.

Speaker 4: 19:06

The thing is that, of course, there are totally different ways to think about these kinds of situations. In this traffic, all these vehicles stuck and idling in my way, it's not impossible that some of these people in SUVs have been in horrible auto accidents in the past and now find driving so terrifying that the therapist has all but ordered them to get a huge, heavy SUV so they can feel safe enough to drive. Or that the Hummer that just cut me off is maybe being driven by a father whose little child is hurt or sick in the seat next to him and he's trying to get this kid to the hospital and he's, in a way, bigger, more legitimate hurry than I am it is actually I who am in his way or I can choose to force myself to consider the likelihood that everyone else in the supermarket's checkout line is just as bored and frustrated as I am, and that some of these people probably have much harder, more tedious or painful lives than I did. Again, please don't think I'm giving you moral advice or that I'm saying you're supposed to think this way or that anyone expects you to just automatically do it because it's hard, it takes will and effort and, if you are like me, some days you won't be able to do it or you just flat out won't want to. But most days, if you're aware enough to give yourself a choice, you can choose to look differently at this fat, dead-eyed, over-made-up lady who just screamed at her kid in the checkout line. Maybe she's not usually like this. Maybe she's been up three straight nights holding the hand of her husband who's dying of bone cancer. Or maybe this very lady is the low-wage clerk at the motor vehicles department who just yesterday helped your spouse resolve a horrific, infuriating red tape problem through some small act of bureaucratic kindness.

Speaker 4: 20:50

Of course, none of this is likely, but it's also not impossible. It just depends what you want to consider, if you're automatically sure that you know what reality is and who and what is really important, if you want to operate on your default setting, then you, like me, probably won't consider possibilities that aren't annoying and miserable. But if you've really learned how to think, how to pay attention, then you will know you have other options. It will actually be within your power to experience a crowded, hot, slow, consumer hell type situation as not only meaningful but sacred, on fire, with the same force that lit the stars Love, fellowship, the mystical oneness of all things deep down. Not that that mystical stuff's necessarily true. The only thing that's capital T true is that you get to decide how you're going to try to see it. This, I submit, is the freedom of real education, of learning how to be well-adjusted. You get to consciously decide what has meaning and what doesn't. You get to decide what to worship, because here's something else that's weird but true In the day-to-day trenches of adult life there is actually no such thing as atheism.

Speaker 4: 22:11

There is no such thing as not worshiping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship and a compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of God or spiritual type thing to worship, be it JC or Allah, be it Yahweh or the Wiccan mother goddess or the Four Noble Truths or some inviolable set of ethical principles, is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive. If you worship money and things, if they are where you tap real meaning in life, then you will never have enough, never feel you have enough. It's the truth. Worship your own body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly and when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally plant you On one level. We all know this stuff already. It's been codified as myths, proverbs, cliches, epigrams, parables, the skeleton of every great story.

Speaker 4: 23:15

The whole trick is keeping the truth up front in daily consciousness. Worship power. You will end up feeling weak and afraid and you will need ever more power over others to numb you to your own fear. Worship your intellect. Being seen as smart, you will end up feeling stupid, a fraud always on the verge of being found out.

Speaker 4: 23:36

Look, the insidious thing about these forms of worship is not that they're evil or sinful, it is that they are unconscious. They are default settings. They're the kind of worship you just gradually slip into, day after day, getting more and more selective about what you see and how you measure value, without ever being fully aware that that's what you're doing. And the so-called real world will not discourage you from operating on your default settings, because the so-called real world of men and money and power hums merrily along on the fuel of fear and anger and frustration and craving and the worship of self. Our own present culture has harnessed these forces in ways that have yielded extraordinary wealth and comfort and personal freedom, the freedom all to be lords of our own tiny skull-sized kingdoms, alone at the center of all creation. This kind of freedom has much to recommend it, but of course there are all different kinds of freedom and the kind that is most precious you will not hear much talked about much in the great outside world of wanting and achieving and displaying. The really important kind of freedom involves attention and awareness and discipline and being able truly to care about other people and to sacrifice for them over and over in myriad petty, little, unsexy ways every day. That is real freedom. That is being educated and understanding how to think and understanding how to think. The alternative is unconsciousness, the default setting, the rat race, the constant gnawing sense of having had and lost some infinite thing.

Speaker 4: 25:15

I know that this stuff probably doesn't sound fun and breezy or grandly inspirational the way a commencement speech is supposed to sound.

Speaker 4: 25:22

What it is, as far as I can see, is the capital T Truth, with a whole lot of rhetorical niceties stripped away. You are, of course, free to think of it whatever you wish, but please don't just dismiss it as some finger-wagging. Dr Laura sermon, none of this stuff is really about morality or religion or dogma or big fancy questions of life after death. The capital T truth is about life before death. It is about the real value of a real education which has almost nothing to do with knowledge and everything to do with simple awareness, awareness of what is so real and essential, so hidden in plain sight all around us all the time that we have to keep reminding ourselves over and over. This is water, this is water. It is unimaginably hard to do this, to stay conscious and alive in the adult world day in and day out, which means yet another grand cliche turns out to be true your education really is the job of a lifetime and it commences now. I wish you way more than luck.

Speaker 2: 26:52

I one thing I just I like how he says the capital T truth is not some like a grand um, like what happens after you die, it's what you do before, like while you're alive, yeah, but there's a feeling of wanting other people to sort of be along, that you know.

Speaker 3: 27:07

There's a feeling of wanting other people to sort of be along, that you know, along alongside you while you, while you do it and when I'm around, people that are still fully. I mean people who are older, younger, um, who are still operating as if they are the center of the universe and a complete inability to control their perception of things, inability to empathize, inability to think of anything in life other than it being an obstacle to their objective. Self-serving objective is tough and I tend to not spend time with those people, yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:02

Especially because I think it's funny too about what you just said is I guarantee there's half or more of the people that are listening right now. Are you nod along and you're like, oh my gosh, yeah, me too, right, yeah.

Speaker 3: 28:16

And the irony is yeah yeah, and, and as I say this, you know again, yeah, I'm not fully formed, I haven't figured it all out. I mean, one of the concepts that he spoke about that I've just recently started deploying discipline and and exercising that muscle, is the shift in the controlling of your perception of things. Um, you know, I I definitely struggle with things being an obstacle to my egocentric pursuits, whether it's the work that I'm, the body of work that I'm doing or just the work I need to do to earn money. You know, some of those things are so intense on a daily basis that I can think of everything as an obstacle dirty dishes in the sink, a kid has a question, the garage door isn't closing, they didn't pick up my mail today. You just want to lash out at all these things because they are these obstacles as you try to do these things that are intensely controlling your perception, or shifting your perception, or deploying that awareness to go.

Speaker 3: 29:39

Well, it's not that my wife is messy and keeps me from being able to do this or do that, it's all these positive things I get to have this or all that stuff, and all that stuff can sound a little self-helpy, a little hokey, but once you start doing it. My God, does it take the edge off? And I still have a long way to go to actually sort of just live in that default state there. I still have to work at it because you know you have 46 years of I don't know egocentric instinct live in that default state. I think it's kind of like.

Speaker 2: 30:16

It's like you said. You have to constantly be reminding yourself, right?

Speaker 3: 30:20

yeah, I mean, there's sort of like a reflex or an instinct there sometimes to be. You know whether it's self-preservation or um, you know just the, the power of ego, and when I say ego I just mean sort of that self-centeredness. Self-centeredness that you're thinking of everything from its relationship to your own self-interest. How is this helping me? How is this holding me back? How is this giving me moving things along? You mentioned things that you worship. You know you worship power, you worship vanity, you worship money, you know whatever, um, and those are things to work on as well though.

Speaker 3: 31:02

I feel I feel relatively good about. I don't know if I could like nail down right now Like I worship this, but I think the first thoughts I have is you know, love or experiences, um the sort of like the truth that can exist with other people, when all pretenses and bullshit and agendas and ego and all that kind of melt away and you're just with someone authentically listening and responding I've heard.

Speaker 2: 31:37

I've heard people talk about like one. One thing that stood out, always stands out to me when I listen to that, is he talks about you can either worship you know worship a god, or worship you know something. Or you can either worship you know worship a God or worship you know something. Or you can worship something spiritual. Yeah, Um but if you choose not to worship one of those things, then you will fall into subconscious worship of power, money, uh, success essentially this this seven deadly sins you something people, always people.

Speaker 2: 32:15

I've had people, I've talked with people about it and they've brought up well. I think you can worship art or you can worship like, you can have like relationships and things like, and I would almost posit that that's like a subcategory of a spiritual thing. Yeah, if, if done correctly, like, if done at the height, like the kind of like when I say art as a spiritual thing or relationship as a spiritual thing, it's not the, yeah, surface level right, but you're not at the root.

Speaker 3: 32:46

Of you know, that's a yeah that's not the lowest, lowest, the deepest, the deepest level of of the thing.

Speaker 2: 32:53

Yeah, I, but I think I think those are things. I think that's absolutely something that, um, like worshiping love, or worship like that's like love of of another, like those are. Those are pure things. Those are essentially religious or spiritual qualities. Um, yeah, I think I think where, where you get into trouble and I think his point lays this out well is, yeah, when you, when you say I, I don't need that, or that's false or that's not true, yeah, you're almost, you're almost. Yeah, throwing the baby out with the bath water, you're causing more damage by, first of all, the. That's not true. The assuredness you have of that is incredibly self-centered and self-serving. He talked about that, yeah, and then, beyond that, you're, you're just, you're missing out on all the blind certainty. Yeah, blind certainty due to dogma or due to some self righteous position or something like that, I don't know. I wanted to share that, though. I listened to it last night and it's like Whoa really does a really good job of how he presents it to, to where it builds yeah, great.

Speaker 3: 34:11

Yeah, great how it unfolds, good writer. But it's, yeah, very effective and very, yeah, it was very easy to listen to it. You know, I think sometimes just thinking like I'm going to play this thing that's 10, 15 minutes long, you just have to listen to it. Yeah, like jesus. Well, you know, and not in the sense of like, for me it's more like jesus, like, can I listen to that and like, process it on a deep level? I'm someone that sometimes has to consume something several times, whether it's reading a script or reading a book, or watching a scene or watching a movie. Like I have to like, yeah, you know, watch it a lot to sort of peel the layers of the onion, right. Um, this is a little bit different because it's, you know, it's not metaphor, it's six to one kind of idea.

Speaker 3: 34:57

Yeah, he's presenting something fairly straight in a straightforward manner, so it's very engaging in that way. Because of that, I'm not like solving a puzzle or sort of like. You know layers of interpretation when you know there layers of interpretation when you know there's a, an analogy or an allegory or something like that going on, Like if he had told the story about the fish and just went okay, figure it out.

Speaker 2: 35:20

See you later. See you later.

Speaker 3: 35:22

Yeah, which would have been funny. What's funny?

Speaker 2: 35:26

is. I like the story about the two guys in the bar too. That's yeah, yeah, yes, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 35:34

Helpful. Two guys in the bar too, that's helpful. I liked that he says like I'm not giving the speech because I'm the wise old fish, but by the end I'm like, yeah, you're the wise old fish, but then I mean, you know, within the year, right?

Speaker 2: 35:43

So yeah, I think he knew like I, intellectually I can get there, but I'm not sure how to take it, how to integrate this. Yeah, um, and that's kind of how I feel about a lot of his work is intellectually, it's there, and I think a lot of his stuff was very much dealing with the, the time that we're in right now.

Speaker 3: 36:05

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:05

Some of the like, a lot of the problems that we talk about on this show. If I mean, if anybody's familiar with his work and has been listening to this show long enough, I'm sure there's, I mean, obvious. I think he's probably a bit more um, there's probably more depth to the exploration or whatever.

Speaker 2: 36:21

But I mean, yeah, I think he was a little bit ahead of what was coming right and um couldn't quite figure it out, but I think there's a lot of a lot of wisdom in there that can help kind of contend with where we are right now.

Speaker 3: 36:38

Yeah, as a world well and and not to get not to. You know, take the, the bigger view of just our conversations. We've been doing this for two years now and starting a third year and this idea of blind certainty, like if we came into these conversations with that present. This would be a very different show, if it even lasted way worse than it is.

Speaker 3: 37:09

Yeah, and not to be self-congratulatory or sort of you know, um, you know, you know reverent about, you know what we've done here or what we've made. But part of why, you know, I'm drawn to these conversations, drawn to our conversations, is that exploration of ideas. It's. It's about wondering or is that this, or is it that, or is it? You know shades, or is it? You know shades of this, shades of that? And having conversations about things where you're bringing a point of view or a perspective but you're not dead set. It's malleable, it's open, it's semi-permeable. You can, you're open. You know the openness to well. Let me hear your point of view on it and that'll shape what I'm thinking. Or have you read this book or watch this movie? You know the openness to well. Let me hear your point of view on it and that'll shape what I'm thinking. Or have you read this book or watch this movie and now and like, continue to develop that perspective?

Speaker 2: 37:59

you know there's something interesting there the trust of like that's built to. Yeah, it is nice because you can explore something.

Speaker 2: 38:08

There's not that fear that you're gonna right like you're, you're exposing yourself, you're naked and you're just well, please don't hurt me right like that kind of a situation. Uh, there's a trust there. There's a that goes beyond just, you know, putting yourself out there, but also knowing that you know if, if you haven't thought all the way through something, or if something does should be challenged, then that's open, that's an open pathway. I think that's how, when conversation or when fellowship's at its best, whatever this is.

Speaker 3: 38:45

And I thought that idea of blind certainty too. Like do our conversations and just wondering, you know, especially in the, in the context of like creating media right, like this is a show we're obviously not crafting something that's sensational or hyperbolic or whatever, but does us not having blind certainty in these conversations make our conversations less engaging or less? Maybe not less engaging, but less, given them like there's not going to be a likelihood that they're going to be polarizing and therefore viral, or I don't know. Like spread.

Speaker 2: 39:44

I'm sure there's, first of all, I'm sure there's perspectives that we have, that there's ideas we have that just aren't true or that aren't thought, thought through enough. I mean, it's not like I'm not saying I'm sure, in a sense, like I'm a hundred percent certain that is that is true. There's things we've said on past episodes and there's things we talk about that maybe we're not like all the way aware of and we live. One of these cultural expectations that as a society we've placed on media or on people is this idea that you are not allowed to ever change what you think.

Speaker 2: 40:22

Right, yeah, like if you're going to, if you're going to take a thing yeah, stick to your guns, stick to this, like oh, this person's a wishy washy, right, right, right, right, something that I firmly believe. Like we talked about self-reliance he talks about it at the end of that essay Say what you think at the moment, like, be true to the self in the moment, because the context of everything is forever in flux. Yeah, like the context of our entire world is forever in flux. Things are different as the hours, days, months, years, decades, I guess, as time goes by, things constantly change, um, the context of the like. You know, two, two of two ideas can exist in paradox just because there's a different context being placed on them, and they can still both be be true or whatever that they can be applicable, or whatever the word is.

Speaker 2: 41:29

And I think the show are like our conversations carry that spirit. Yeah, um, there's not. You know, I'm going to kind of say where I am right now and that doesn't make the old, like old, old conversations we've had irrelevant, um, but it also doesn't make me look back at anything and have to wear a mask to not cringe or have to, you know, provide myself with permission or some kind of explanation or um means to an end, uh, narrative, in order not to you know, have a yeah, have a feeling that that was not true.

Speaker 2: 42:15

I think that ties in really well too with I mean, that's always kind of been my take on making any kind of work too and I if I struggle with that all the time, right, I mean all of these ideas that I have about what art should be or what good work should. All of these ideas that I have about what art should be or what good work should be, and things like that. I'm constantly like I'm overthinking it or like this isn't.

Speaker 2: 42:39

I mean, you know how I like to overthink things yeah um, yeah, I mean, I'm constantly you know, am I overthinking it? Am I being too strict about this? Is how it has to be? Like, obviously, there's no way that it has to be. Where do you draw the line between something that's taste, or something that's complete opinion, or something that's you know? Is there a realm of truth around creating art in a certain way? Or where do you separate things? Where do you draw lines between the commercial aspects or, like, the spiritual aspects of a thing? I don't know any of the answers to these things and that's why these conversations are helpful and you know they'll be helpful forever, as long as we're here.

Speaker 3: 43:39

I think, when you, when I think about that, I think about, like you know, making work, whether it's a photo project or writing a poem or a screenplay or whatever. I think about our conversations. But then the flip side of that some media where it's heated debate, it's someone presenting these concrete beliefs in contrast to someone else's concrete beliefs, or their blind certainty versus that person's blind certainty. You said the word wishy-washy. Think about these conversations in the work. You know, for me the work is sort of like I don't know like I'm going out and I'm in regards to photography, I'm, I have some notions or impressions or, um, abstractions that I'm wondering about and I want to go out in the world and take photographs of stuff that relates to those feelings or those ideas or those thoughts and sort of same thing. In these conversations that we have, it's Alex, new media is bullshit. Postmodernism is this. You know, this thing is that technology is the devil. You know, like I don't come to these conversations to just like hammer you with blind certainty and you to tell me I'm wrong and for you to have your blind certainty battle against mine, and therefore it's this engaging drama that you know has virality and and uh, polarization and all that. The conversations are just like going out setting out to do the work, like I don't know, yeah, but I kind of feel this and I feel this feels like it's directionally appropriate. Yeah, curious what you think and shaping that and you know, again, not to like lock it down but to just have a better, greater awareness.

Speaker 3: 45:29

You know I talked about this numerous times. Cartography I'm not trying to like nail you down as a person, alex, yeah to where. If you tell me you buy a motorcycle, I'm like, well, that doesn't fit the map that I have of you, so you're doing something wrong. It's impression, impressionistic, it's. It's just a sort of overall feeling and a general map, not this all the rivers here and the things here and like I know exactly what to do and I have all this certainty because I have the map. Yeah, um we like.

Speaker 3: 46:08

We love certainty that's the thing is like. What's that about? Like why? We talk about you know, certainty versus awareness. Like awareness to me is sort of like.

Speaker 2: 46:22

Yeah, but we like, as a civilization, we love, oh, it's mathematically proven or it's scientifically, you know, supported. We love that Like it's got. We got supported. We love that Like we got everything we have to, you have to understand.

Speaker 3: 46:36

Black, white.

Speaker 2: 46:36

You have to understand what's the atomic recipe for this. Yeah, yeah, I think there's a real inability sometimes to but see, even this is like, obviously this is a my opinion on things, um, but no, it seems like there is an inability sometimes to and I'm not saying that's not important, I'm just saying it it may be it's not as important as we make it out to be, and maybe it is. But but, yeah, sometimes it's okay to not be certain about, yeah, it's okay to just be like, yeah, it feels, but we don't like that, we don't. We've built an entire society around that being a outlandish idea, almost. Uh, yeah, well, even when it comes, I think. Also, I think I um, I might have said the row earlier on the s, I don't know why I was thinking, but emerson, just in case anybody's trying to go look right look up self-reliance and the rose.

Speaker 2: 47:43

also great walden, and he's a little more like mystical maybe, but it's great, it's good mysticism. I like some mysticism. I've been diving into the transcendentalists lately, so Thoreau and Emerson and Walt Whitman, but anyways, sorry, I just wanted to clarify that, but yeah, I feel like it's hard sometimes for us to accept not knowing.

Speaker 3: 48:08

Well, and I think when you bring up things like things that we are certain about when it comes to science and mathematics right, you know there are certain things that are, you know this is mathematically true, this is scientifically proven the certainty of those things then create sort of a an, an inability to be aware of the things that are a bit less, um, graspable, yeah, or you know, like quantifiable in the universe, Like there can be things like consciousness that it's just going to be tough to nail that down into an equation E equals MC squared.

Speaker 3: 48:51

Like we're going to find, we're going to figure out to nail that down into an equation E equals.

Speaker 2: 48:54

MC squared, we're going to find the equation. You know what I mean. We're trying to replicate it.

Speaker 3: 48:58

We're trying to replicate it with machines and I worry that sometimes, that you know, like you gave the analogy of the younger fish and the older fish, you know that focus on the certainty of those things then makes you completely blind to the fact that you're in water. And same thing with, like in the scientific community, everything being based on material things. Well, we can't even begin to talk about consciousness because it gets too supernatural, it gets too metaphysical, it gets too transcendent. Transcendent and we can't really quantify that. So, like, we're just going to shut, shut those conversations down. Yeah, right, it's, it's, it's. We're not there yet, but somebody's gonna kind of crack it into and put it into the mathematics framework or the scientific framework and we'll get it all figured out.

Speaker 3: 49:54

And I'm sure there were, you know, conversations and quantum mechanics and big bang theory and all this kind of stuff that you know, the the entrenched interest in material science. We're getting a little bit off here. But you know we, well, that challenges the status quo and you know like that might change the paradigm of things or this or that or whatever. So yeah, no, we're just going to back away from that or discredit you or you know whatever that kind of stuff. And obviously that relates to what he's talking about in a more specific way, but, um, I, yeah, I think that that combination of ego, death and um, the control of perspective, and and not letting um blind certainty, the, the people that I'm around that I feel like look at the world with through the eye, you know, through this perspective of blind certainty, it's, it's just a a relationship that you know, I have our surface interactions, but it's not going to really go beyond that, because, don't step on, any of the sacred cows and some of the other friends that we have are in great alignment or sort of have.

Speaker 3: 51:11

This good chemistry is, you know, maybe that's part of that chemistry is that there is this open mindedness, there's this yearning to develop even more awareness and and this goes back to another through line in all of our conversations this idea of curation and curation being not this is awesome, you should do this, or the way I see things is the right way, you should do this. It's sort of going. You're on a journey of developing awareness. You're on a journey of developing awareness. Here are some things books, ideas, uh, artwork, whatever that will continue that development and I'm going to curate these things for you, just like you curated the speech that we listened to. I would have not come across that on my own anytime soon, most likely. Yeah, um, so that that process of, or that uh act of curation helps me, especially you, knowing I'm someone that is in a ever-growing, ever-changing state of development, of awareness, and all that hey, let me put this in front of you.

Speaker 2: 52:29

Hey, we're gonna listen to this for 15 minutes. Maccos, yeah, you fucking continue to plumb the depths.

Speaker 3: 52:35

I've got a couch to hit Some mindless YouTube videos.

Speaker 2: 52:41

Well, do you remember? Last year I talked to you about a pro it was probably around this time A project called like what the hell is water.

Speaker 3: 52:49

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:51

And it was essentially like a like a year-long journal project and this is for you, or yeah, it was going to be like a photo project slash um reading list slash or slash like journaling thing that I was going to do. And yeah, I just I felt like you know, you talk about how we try to take these things and then quantify them and build this like need or you know, I can't do this because I need to read this or I need to understand this, I need to know this. The more I thought about it, the more I was just like this is, it's an interesting project. I thought it was interesting. It was going to be like a photo project, that kind of built in with a lot of different things, but the more you think about it, it's like doing this project kind of undermines the entire idea right.

Speaker 2: 53:56

That, you know, we're constantly trying to better understand. When it's like just paying attention is the thing that we're missing, right, we're like man, I need to read this book, or I need to watch this, or I need to figure this out or, you know, obtain this, or when, in reality, yeah, it's just paying attention, and you know, you hear, paying attention and it's completely repetitive at this point it means nothing to anybody. Yeah, you know, everybody just heard that you know that phrase and thought nothing of it, but it really is kind of what it is. So, are you in the moment? Are you paying attention to what's going on, like that's the most important thing?

Speaker 3: 54:43

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 54:44

And all these other things are just like almost a form of forgiving ourselves for not doing that, and that's it's an interesting relationship that those things have. Yes, but um, yeah, I mean any other thoughts I have a. I have another thing that I'd love to talk about, but you also brought the journal this week, so I oh I, I just have it. What do we have?

Speaker 3: 55:09

in there.

Speaker 3: 55:10

And just in case I was going to write stuff down, honestly I don't have anything. I mean, I'm sure I could pick through it and find some stuff that feels, you know, like old thought. You know they don't feel fresh, you know sort of like, oh well, yeah, I remember thinking that three months ago. It's kind of interesting, you know, but you got to like spin it all up to, to get into it, versus coming in hot, which I always love when we're able to, one of us or both of us are coming in hot with something, which I felt like you did with what you listened to yesterday. Yeah, I just wanted to respond to what you said.

Speaker 3: 55:45

I thought it was interesting this idea of and correct me if I'm wrong in what, how I and what I heard, but something to the effect of an awareness of this thing, this idea, this concept, and then generating work as a response or as a continuation of it. But then the generation of work around it, sort of of work around it, sort of corrupting it or tainting it or something negative, yeah, almost like I don't know if it dilutes it or has kind of a negative impact on its power. In a sense, that was interesting to me. Yeah, sense uh that. That that was interesting to me. Yeah, it's almost like, um, no, just it's there. You're aware of it, it's growing, your awareness is growing. Let it be.

Speaker 2: 56:43

Do projects on other stuff, like you don't need to turn that into a project, well, maybe and so I do feel like the last year has been transformational in a lot of ways, more so than recent years, and I mean, maybe that's just culmination of different things. You know, just different. Yeah, ever-shifting context, I guess, right? No, yeah, it just felt like I wrote down hijacking and corrupting a little bit.

Speaker 3: 57:16

Yeah, I'm going to co-op this interesting thing that feels fresh and cool and like turn it into work.

Speaker 2: 57:23

Yeah, and I'm going to try to turn it into something that, surely, will be reductive to the actual, you know, idea, or the actual power of the thing.

Speaker 3: 57:37

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 57:39

And by doing so I'm going to force it through my little window of perception and I'm going to miss the entire point of exploring this idea of perception greater, because I'm trying to turn it into something that right, and so I don't know what the answer is of how you, how do you balance those things? Yeah, and that's, I mean that's obviously, I think you just figure that out, you do more work and you figure that out, right, hopefully you do keep plugging away at it. But I mean, yeah, I think I, I, you know, I think it's a noble goal to try to translate that in a way that isn't corrupting. Um, translate that or that, you know, maybe not that idea in particular, but whatever, whatever thing is, is kind of consuming you or is taking you over. Trying to translate it in a way that isn't corrupting of the the thing. Um, obviously we talk about a lot of like consumer, like you're driven by metrics and commerce to create and the rat race.

Speaker 2: 58:44

I don't really feel that, partially just because I just don't. It's not really my distribution. I mean I don't really distribute anything at the moment, but, um, I mean my whole plan for this was just to put it up on the website and, you know, probably nobody sees it, um, but maybe I talk about it and it drives things there. But yeah, I just I don't know. I've been thinking a lot about the idea of like, like, that balance between. So I was editing the episode from last week, couple weeks ago, and it was two parts and it part of it felt a little negative to me yeah and it just like oh man.

Speaker 2: 59:43

We're just so upset with all of these, like oh man, second screen experiences and music and all of this screw you.

Speaker 2: 59:51

Yeah, just all of this like, oh, like, and I I just I typically don't like being that negative because I kind of do think how you look at thing, I mean obviously like, yeah, you know, aside from the, this is water, which was dealt with, a similar thing, but how you look at things kind of drives how you look at everything else, um, and it does, it does get on my nerves, like me personally as an individual, as a, as a singular experience. It it does frustrate me and I see the world as this amazing, limited opportunity. Like we have all of like more beautiful, like just transcendent music than I'll ever be able to listen to, and we have more, you know, good whiskey or great films, or like beautiful, amazing literature, just nature that is so gorgeous that it crushes you inside, like it makes you feel insignificant and just overwhelmed with darkness, and we have all. There's just so much to the relationships and love and, you know, momentary experience. There's just so much the world gives so much.

Speaker 3: 1:01:08

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:01:10

That we just get to experience. And you add in you know, you know, obviously we talked about like nature and relationships and but like, yeah, whiskey, or like a nice camera, or just like that, like like a beautiful sunset, there's just so much amazing thing, like amazing, just so much amazing thing, like amazing, just amazing experience to have. And it does frustrate me when we, when we're like, when we just put like, for example you know, we talked about the, uh, the second screen, yep, like, for example, you know we talked about the uh, the second screen.

Speaker 2: 1:01:59

Yep, Like that concept frustrates me. Yes, it makes me upset, you know it just, and I. Part of that is I don't like I totally understand the idea of like, yeah, you've had a hard day's work, you just want to put something on that you don't really have to focus on. But then I'm like man, all of the beauty that is being sacrificed for that sludge, essentially, and it sounds pretentious and ugly and snobby, and I know that and I don't mean it that way. I think there's something deeper there.

Speaker 2: 1:02:28

I don't want to be a snob. I don't like people that are snobby or that are, you know, thumb their nose at other people's taste, and I get it like that is taste, but for some reason, just all I can talk about is my singular experience and it's just like frustrating to me because it feels like distraction from all of this, Like I don't like hearing people talk about how terrible everything is, Cause I'm like like every moment is a a fleeting opportunity to experience the most amazing gift that you know anybody's ever had, and it's constantly fleeting and there is, for all we know, there's a timer and it runs out at a certain point and I think that's the you know, kind of keep on the second screen thing.

Speaker 3: 1:03:20

You know, I think of what you just said and go. These businesses can make really powerful, impactful work. They can collaborate with artists and tell stories that change people's lives or open up new worlds, develop their awareness without being didactic, and all that kind of stuff. And Netflix goes well, we're just a business that needs to make money and earn profit for our shareholders. So how can we create visual music that will grab enough of the attention of someone who's on their phone so that they just keep whatever we made on their TV playing and keeps them subscribed to our service so we can continue to meet the expectations or exceed the expectations of our shareholders and make money? It's like the most reduced, basic, soulless, lifeless thing they can do to just like solve this equation of we need people to have our thing on their tv.

Speaker 3: 1:04:44

We don't feel like competing with their telephone or their iphones and and their first screens. So how do we just make something that they'll tune into, that they'll have on in the background? Like, how can we just be background, how can we just be on in the background so that we're maintaining subscriptions, growing our subscriber base, and it's just sad.

Speaker 2: 1:05:10

Yeah, it's just, and I don't want to'm not saying that I don't, I don't want to sit here and just be like, oh, corporate, you know, these corporations are all of our, it's all our like, all of our problems, and da, da, da, da like, yeah, these are, they're destroyed like the modern world.

Speaker 2: 1:05:25

It's like, I think, a lot of the issues that stem in our society today and we talked about this before. It's, it's how we choose to perceive, right, like I talk, you know, I talking about how I think he had a he he under like the equation that he understood, that David Foster Wallace understood, from my interpretation of his work, is he understood that when you remove meaning, you're only doing it on a superficial level. Like when you remove, like you have this postmodern world and we've killed all of the everything, all of the meaning, because it was all just fake anyways and it was just institutional propaganda to control populations, yeah, and when you remove all of that, you remove a core requirement for our, for the human being, and then you also kind of remove a sense of autonomy or a sense of how.

Speaker 2: 1:06:24

I look at this is how this is or how I, you know, uh, these corporations are responding to audiences, right? If nobody watched the bullshit second screen experience stuff that they put out, then they wouldn't make it Right, and so I've always, I've always lived by the like in America. Something that I believe to be true is there's really only two ways that you can vote. You talk about voting and having liberty, and it's like you can vote with your dollar and you can vote with your feet. Yeah, where you are and what you, you know, what you choose. It's like what you choose to your feet can be your attention or it can be the physical place that you're in yeah, and then your dollar.

Speaker 2: 1:07:13

That's how you vote, and corporations are slow. But if you say I'm not going to put up with this, they're going to say, okay, well, what do you want? And I know it's not like there's that's a very oversimplified way of presenting it but at the very basic level we complain and then we don't change anything, we don't audit our habits or our consumption and say I don't agree with this, so I'm going to stop. We're really good at being like this sucks.

Speaker 3: 1:07:52

And then we just do it Well, and that goes back to you know, that goes back to those.

Speaker 2: 1:07:57

So it's like I don't want to watch visual music, or like I don't know I don't want to. I'm just not going to give them my vote at all, Right.

Speaker 3: 1:08:17

And the sad thing is is that I think some of those corporations are so sophisticated that they go. A normal person would react this way to this thing. But how do we use the tools that we have to prevent them from having that autonomous thought, that and we make them feel like they're missing out on social coercion or if they're not doing the things that everyone else is doing, even if everyone else isn't doing it, but if we make them think they are? Yeah, and I don't want to get in the weeds too much on that stuff, but it definitely goes back to the things that we talked about with with you know, I think that that's that simple thing.

Speaker 3: 1:08:54

Like corporation creates something, or person creates something that they hope has value. Person votes with attention. You said feet, you know obviously synonymous, but um, or the, or their dollar? Well then, the corporation goes. Well, how do we completely change the wrapper around their mind so that they don't even think in those terms? Yeah, and we don't have to worry about this at all so you always have to think in those terms and that's like that's part of that's part of the response.

Speaker 2: 1:09:23

But and that's and maybe, maybe that's me just being like I I think you always have to think in these terms. Yeah. But you know I, you don't, you know it's. It's easier to get the system to work in your favor than to destroy the system and build a better system.

Speaker 3: 1:09:40

But that goes and that goes back to you know again, you curating something for me, the century of the self documentary, and watching that and learning about Edward Bernays and all that. And that's the water example. Like I had no idea I was in water. And now I watch this and I'm like, oh, you're like you can't.

Speaker 2: 1:10:00

You know you can't the pennies window or the. That's what you talked about.

Speaker 3: 1:10:02

The department store window and that how. That was just, you know, invented to engineer, um, uh, uh, to engineer a default perspective that we all have on life and existence, which is to want things instead of to just think about needing them. Desire versus need. And again going back to his speech, that's what this is all about these conversations, these experiences, um, reading watching documentaries, all of that stuff. Now some people have have have think that that has happened to them, um, and they've been led astray by, uh, the things that are engineered to look and feel real and truthful, and and all that, um, here's here's where we're total hypocrites, though.

Speaker 2: 1:10:58

Like you went to see the new Jurassic park, yes, you went to see Superman.

Speaker 3: 1:11:04

Superman.

Speaker 2: 1:11:04

Yeah, I'm going to watch happy Gilmore too. Yes, Like and some of these. Like you know, I sit here and I'm like well, why is that okay? Is that okay? Yeah you know, and obviously I'll try to come up with some kind of explanation that makes it okay, so I can be like oh, okay, I'm, I'm not tell you what the corporations have learned in a second, when you're done and one one, like one thing I think you know like an adam sandler movie.

Speaker 2: 1:11:39

it's just, in a sense it almost is like visual um, second screen or yeah, yeah, but it does seem like he genuinely has like the intention is. Is not I don't, I don't think his intention is just I'm going to make it. Now, netflix's intention might be he's going to make this movie, we're going to make as much money as we can. Yeah, genuinely feels like his intention is not that. Yeah, he, it seems like you know he's. I mean, he has his own genre of but you know what's like Superman or Jurassic park, like. So you know it's, it's not defensible. We're not, you know we're guilty.

Speaker 2: 1:12:21

Yeah absolutely, and it's like I can sit here and criticize it and then, yeah, there's still the guilt or the shame of yeah, but.

Speaker 3: 1:12:33

But what can happen is we can. We can ask these questions, these conversations like why did I go see jurassic park and why did I take my kids to that? Why do you want to like, you're going to watch, you know, re-up your subscription in netflix for a month and watch happy gilmore 2 and then bounce, that's, that's exactly what you're going to do. But and then I sit there and we ask these questions, right, and the conversation gets us the mind going, the brain turning. Maybe we do some research, maybe we read some articles, maybe we find out that these media companies have been doing intense research into the power of nostalgia and what that aspect of our human psychology is. And they worked with psychotherapists and psychiatrists, they did focus groups, they did testing, they built entire sets where people are in a room and there's like some DVDs down there or this or that, and they studied everything that they did. They went oh, everybody's gravitating. They found this rule, this thing that they did. They went oh, everybody's gravitating.

Speaker 3: 1:13:34

They found this rule, this thing that they can be certain of, and it is, if we create something that taps into an experience they had as a child or a young person, the conversion rate that we have on watching it, even if it sucks, even if it's cheap, whatever, it is the likelihood that they're going to watch that thing and consume that thing and share it with their kids and then get them going. So we can just keep regurgitating these films around, this franchise, with that theme music, with those characters. It's just money in the bank and they take it hook line and fucking sinker every goddamn time. This guy thinks he's got his little podcast. He thinks he's aware of all this shit. The department store, edward Bernays and that dumb son of a bitch is marching his kids into the theater to watch Superman because he saw it when he was a kid. He loves the music, everything that we created, even if we didn't think about those things back then. Now we know that that's what the effect was. Knowing what the effect was, we can capitalize on it.

Speaker 2: 1:14:50

And we can just keep it going. There's a reason they made like six of them, Um, and we can just there's a reason.

Speaker 3: 1:14:53

They made like six of them. Now we're going to make new movies with new IP or new whatever, hoping that that's going to create for this generation the thing that they drag their kids to go see in 30 years. Um, but we've got, you know, one in the hands worth two in the bush. We've got Jurassic Park. We've got, um, uh, superman. We've got Star Wars. We've got Superman, we've got Star Wars. We've got all this stuff. We're good, yeah. And then, to wrap up the point, when we read those articles or hear about that research or the person from the company talks about how this is all by design, when you become aware of that, then it helps you vote, it helps you go. Well, even though I really want to see that next Jurassic World movie, I'm not going to because I know what they're doing.

Speaker 2: 1:15:49

Well, so you kind of took where I was going to take it. Yeah, I mean, no, how do you do it? Is it discipline? Yeah, you know, I'm sure the type like a lot of the viewers or listeners to this one, I would guess that there's probably some similar frustrations. I mean, I just know in our friend group and I'm guessing, yeah, just you know, there's certain predispositions that would would lead you to listen to something like this. Yeah, you know, we're frustrated, we're like, oh, this systems it's not efficient. And I, you know, the answer has never been to check out. It's not. You're not gonna, nothing's gonna happen if you do that. Business as usual. Yep, so how do you? How do you? How do you? You know, how do you?

Speaker 2: 1:16:46

You know, fight back is so aggressive, right, but how do you? Yeah, is it discipline? Is it just like you said? Is it you know? Do you? Yeah, is it discipline? Is it just like you said? Is it you know? Do you establish such a firm set of guidelines and then, just you know, have the discipline of a soldier and not violate those, is it?

Speaker 2: 1:17:07

We're overthinking it, you know? Well, I mean, that's probably a little bit of it, but it's just a massive like, just see what you want to see, like what you like, do whatever Is that. Is that where it is? Um? Is it because, like you said, you know you can easily just make that argument in good faith like what you like, like, and I I tend to lean that way, but then I also do recognize that like what you like isn't really a thing in a 2025, you know, consumerist society, right, it's, it's being manipulated, it's being, you know, there's social cohesion happening, even if you don't recognize it, if you're a part of social media or even if you're just a part of friend groups, like you're getting hurted in in some way or another. You might not even realize it.

Speaker 2: 1:17:59

You are sometimes helping the herd yeah, the herders the shepherds, and it's like maybe that's okay too, like I herded you, I guess, in a way to listen to that, yeah, but you know what, so what? Like you know what? So what, like you know I, I, how does the? I don't think we're going to answer this in the next five minutes, but directionally, like what do you? What does your intuition say? Is it, is it discipline? Is it who cares? Like I, you know, again, I, I lean to like to say like, would you like? But then it's like. But if that's not true, if that's just a total manipulation, then that's not, I know, not the answer.

Speaker 3: 1:18:41

To me the ideal. You know, this is just responding quickly to what you said. I just keep thinking about awareness. It's like I'd rather participate in these things and be selective, but knowing like, well, you're not going to just you know I could, but you're not going to just opt out of the whole thing, yeah, and just bone out and, you know, live in the wilderness with your family and to completely check out of contemporary capitalist society. And I don't. Nor do I want like yeah, I joke with. Nor do I want like yeah, I joke with.

Speaker 2: 1:19:15

Audrey, and I joke about this all the time. Yeah, like likelihood is like we're going to be just on a bunch of land one day in the middle of nowhere and I'm like, but I like getting bagels, yeah, and I like I like going to see movies, and you know, I like going to the symphony. Or I like going to see movies and you know, I like going to the symphony, or I like, you know a good shitty breakfast Taking photos with a Leica you like, walking around the city Dinner breakfast Hotels Like.

Speaker 2: 1:19:43

There's a lot of Like doing work on a computer.

Speaker 3: 1:19:46

you know, I don't know if I like.

Speaker 2: 1:19:48

Well, you know. No but there's plenty of things in you know, in this consumer society, that I love. Yeah, I do like, yeah, absolutely. Bourbon whiskey, scotch baseball, football, film. Hollywood is a complete idea. Absolutely, even literature to an extent comes from that.

Speaker 3: 1:20:09

There's a lot of yeah, and as for me, you you said earlier, throw the baby out with the bath water, which is kind of the extreme right bone out like I'm done. Yeah, versus participation with deep awareness.

Speaker 2: 1:20:25

Yeah, deep understanding I just I don't know if that's realistic because again you get to that well, you can't. I've had a hard day at work. I'm just trying to watch a little TV and go to bed Like that, that vibe, and you know we talked about it in the in the commencement address, where that's real. Yeah, I get that. And having the quote unquote awareness on top of that, it's tough.

Speaker 3: 1:20:53

Yeah, well, it's the main. I mean, I keep going back to the movies, but the Matrix, I just that movie, the scene with, I think, his name's, cypher Joe Pantoliano I don't know if you've seen the Matrix, but you know when he's eating the steak and he's like I don't care, yeah, put me back in, I don't need to know. Yeah, this steak isn't real, but it tastes good. Yeah, uh, versus you know. Yeah, you're just people that are like no, we want to know exactly how it is, how it works, whatever, and then we want to destroy it.

Speaker 2: 1:21:27

Well, see, and that, like we kind of made that point earlier, that it's like people are trying to understand too much, and then we've exactly fallen into that trap right here. Yeah, but at the same time, you know, how do you, how do you shift a system that is driven by, it's intentionally driven, and it's driven by these incentives, these incentive structures and the societal structures that are artificial or manufactured? You know, is the answer to drive it more towards something that's less manufactured? And yeah, I don't, I don't have the answer to these questions.

Speaker 3: 1:22:04

Yeah, it probably what it is is. It's more of like a. It's just more of a balance of both forces at play. You know the example of a movie, right, the studio wants to make a bunch of money. They want something that's profitable. The artist behind it wants to make something special.

Speaker 3: 1:22:23

Like if you watch the series about the making of the Godfather and all the pressures from the corporation that owned Paramount and all the pressures from the corporation that owned Paramount and the board that was putting all this heat on the president of Paramount, and then he was transferring that to Coppola. But Coppola is trying to put pressure on him to be let the art do its thing and you know all of that stuff. I think you know when you can find a better synergy between the two. Like, look, I get it. This is a capitalist enterprise and the capitalist things go quite get it. We need to make something artistic for it to make money. Like we have to embrace the art and magic and soul of this thing for it to really spread and for its people to love it and revere it for generations, love it and revere it for generations. Um, you know maybe that that that balance or synergy between the two is like I do think of it all.

Speaker 2: 1:23:22

Yeah, to get to that, you do have to, I mean, just have a little bit of I don't know like. This is hard for me to say, but my intuition says, and I, this is how I try to live is I try, I try to be careful about what I'm consuming.

Speaker 3: 1:23:40

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:23:41

Mindful, mindful.

Speaker 3: 1:23:42

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:23:43

Because, yeah, I do want to. I want to see more. I want the things that I make to be representative of that, and I want the things that I consume to be representative of that. And I want the things that I consume to be representative of that. And you know, I want the people around me to have you know to to consume, not not in the sense of and we've talked about this a little bit before um, either that or this is just crazy deja vu but not in the sense of like you have to consume what I'm consuming, or like you have to, but in the sense of I don't want them wasting their time on something that's like like you see some people and they'll watch a bunch of movies on letterboxd.

Speaker 2: 1:24:27

I don't know why this, this comes to mind, but I was having a conversation with somebody about this, or joking about this, a couple of weeks ago and there, do you know how Letterboxd is like that? It's like 10 little graphs yes, it's like the ranking bell curve, essentially and they're very skewed to the left, which means they're watching movies that they don't enjoy, right. And if you look at mine, it's pretty much everything's like three and a half stars and up, like pretty much everything I've watched. Yeah, I watch a decent amount of stuff because if I start something and I don't like it, I'm like this isn't where, like this is going to be a bad, it doesn't have some redeeming quality. I stop.

Speaker 4: 1:25:10

Yeah, you don't, I don, I don't finish it.

Speaker 2: 1:25:12

Because the time and the energy and the mental capacity or whatever, is worth way more to me than wasting it on something that I am not enjoying, right, and that sounds snobby, yeah. But then I see people and I'm like man, you've spent potentially some people, potentially thousands of hours Right Watching things that you don't like. Well or you're just processing everything in a negative way. Yeah, and both of those seem not fun to me. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:25:45

And that's the other concern too is like are you signaling your elite perspective by thinking everything that you watch sucks your elite perspective by thinking everything that you watch sucks there's I mean there's, there's everything from someone just legitimately doesn't think a movie is good versus well, what will it mean to those who see?

Speaker 2: 1:26:04

oh, this movie is five stars. It's I think it's shit. No, it's three stars.

Speaker 2: 1:26:08

Yeah, you know whereas you know that's not doing anybody a favor, though. Like you're getting a momentary feeling of satisfaction because you feel whereas you know that's not doing anybody a favor, though like you're getting a momentary feeling of satisfaction because you feel like you're above other people right, well, it's ego, that's not going to translate to most people, so it doesn't matter. Yeah, and then you're going to look like a dick. Oh, and then, by the way, you're going die soon. And because we all do, and you've done nothing to contribute to anything other than your own temporary feeling of euphoria, yeah, which was worthless well in that, in those instances, you've done more harm than good.

Speaker 3: 1:26:47

In those instances where you look at someone and it just the vibe is this is, uh, signaling, or this is an ego play, or what they're. What are they worshiping? Yeah, that they're trashing these films, whether it's a classic or something that's just more, I don't know. Like you know, we all enjoy as a culture, like, for the most part, star wars, jurassic park, whatever, yeah, um, what are they worshiping? That and that? This way, the way that they're rating these, these films, is an, is an externalization of that misaligned worship. Yeah, um, you know, you see that, you see that all the time. Um, and that's why some movie reviewers, I always felt like Siskel and Ebert, you know, I I really always gravitated towards their reviews because I just felt like they just were fair, they just went. It's Beethoven's third movie. I'm going to review it for what it is.

Speaker 3: 1:27:59

I'm not gonna go the dog beethoven like like roger ebert, would review those movies and be like I know what this is, going into it and I'm gonna rate it accordingly. I'm not going to go. How does this hold up against apocalypse now? And because it sucks in comparison, it therefore sucks and there are.

Speaker 2: 1:28:16

There are movies that you can tell. You can watch it and be like the intention of this was shitty. There was shitty intention behind this right. There was a negative intention behind. This is a hateful movie. This is a cruel movie yeah, you can tell sure, and those deserve to be yeah, properly stated yes but yeah or when something's poorly crafted.

Speaker 3: 1:28:41

I mean, like you could argue that you know some of those, those movies that we dismiss, are really well made. You know what's the david mamet thing like? There's he like listed out like three, like the only three perfect movies in existence? Yeah, and one of them is I always forget the name of it the movie with Tim Allen. Galaxy Quest Is the perfect movie. It's one of like three perfect movies according to the Pulitzer Prize winning David Mamet. And when. You know, I saw that movie when it was in the theaters and loved it. Yeah, and when I read that about him I was like I rewatched it and went it's pretty flawless. Now, if you sit there going, but it's not Citizen Kane, it's not, you know, it's not 2001,. It's not this, it's not that, it it's not. Yeah, you know it's not 2001, it's not this.

Speaker 2: 1:29:33

It's not that it's. It's like an over indexing of the formal qualities.

Speaker 3: 1:29:37

Yeah yeah, it is a phenomenal movie and it is I mean, it is a story.

Speaker 2: 1:29:43

It's you and I talking about forrest gump and yeah, you know, and pulp fiction and those.

Speaker 3: 1:29:48

yeah, I think that about, um, you know, there there's some movies that you know are just sort of, you know, popular and they're not plumbing the depths of our human experience and all that. But I think of a movie like Tremors with Kevin Bacon and I'm like I just love that movie If I, if cable still existed and I was flipping the dial, I don't care what scene it is. Yeah, that's an immediate stop.

Speaker 2: 1:30:12

And it's funny because you talk about having different. Um, you know, we have all of our, our worldview.

Speaker 3: 1:30:18

It's like I like the scratchy stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:30:20

I mean, as you know, like, I like the scratchy stuff because that's the stuff that makes me feel like like I'm living, like I'm alive, like I'm experiencing something that's worthwhile. Yeah, I don't love the polished the overthought the intellectual. Yeah, it's important and you know, some of these things I like, I love Billy Wilder. He's a very competent craftsman and you know, the dialogue's just like completely tight. The structure is classical to its core. It's beautiful.

Speaker 2: 1:30:59

it's always, you know, well acted, yeah, and I mean they're great, they're amazing, yeah, but give me something that's uh and I, you know, I some of those are some of my favorite films, yeah, but yeah, I also just give me the scratchy, like yeah, I can't quite nail this, squinting at it, but then you're just like I am in the air right now.

Speaker 3: 1:31:19

Yeah like I am, but that was good yeah yeah, I'm right there with you, and that's. The other thing too is I don't go in going, and that's not the right thing.

Speaker 3: 1:31:29

I mean, yeah, I'll say that again, it's just my but I think it is funny how everybody kind of but I think some people might go like, if it's not scratchy and nebulous and abstract and weird and vibey and mysterious, well then it sucks yeah and like and see, I'm not watching this thing, scratchy and abstract, like if if you make an abstract movie, that is shit.

Speaker 2: 1:31:55

Or if you're like well, it's artsy it's artsy to be artsy, it's like, yeah, it's not good, but what I?

Speaker 3: 1:32:02

think is somebody might sort of like create this blind certainty that those are the kinds of movies I like and they go watch galaxy quest and deep down inside of them they love the shit out of it. Yeah, but they go. Well, that doesn't. That doesn't fit the narrative here that I'm trying to put out. So I need to put out there it was dog shit. Why does everybody like it? And that's what I, you know. Going back to someone like Roger Ebert, he didn't have that pretense.

Speaker 3: 1:32:27

He just I'm going to watch it with this objective purity and just let it be decided if I liked it or not. I'm not going in with an agenda. I don't have some personal narrative. I mean, he's given thumbs up to movies that some other critics were like what the hell were? You thinking and it's like I liked it. I saw this in it. I like this about it. You know, whatever Is it a perfect film? Is it, you know, the greatest film? No, yeah, but it's a thumbs up.

Speaker 2: 1:32:59

I had more positive than negative, yeah, and I think and that, honestly, most of the films that are made like, if you're a true fan of film, Mm-hmm. Not most of the films, that there's been a lot of films, but there's plenty, though there is a lifetime full of film of I had a better time than than I did. Like I had more of a good time than I did a bad time. I enjoyed this more than I didn't.

Speaker 3: 1:33:30

And some of my favorite films. I started out not liking them. I couldn't I mean, I couldn't make it through the Shining when I was younger to save my life. I'd fall asleep every time Like what is this? This is always a horror movie.

Speaker 2: 1:33:44

This is boring, it's always the Kubrick thing, right, it's like Shining 2001. Yeah, you watch it and it's all typically what happens. You watch it in college or in high school or something and you're like, oh yeah, it's the greatest movie ever.

Speaker 3: 1:34:01

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:34:02

But not because you thought it was the greatest movie ever, it's because it's supposed to be the greatest movie ever, right. And then you learn a little bit more and it's kind of like the, the Dunning Kruger curve, right, you learn a little more and you're like, yeah, I didn't like that movie. Yeah, that movie stinks. Then a lot of people I feel like this is what you keep going. And then you're just like, oh, wow, that might've been the greatest movie ever. So were you wrong? Initially, like who knows? Like, were you like? Obviously you were coming from a wrong place. But eventually you get there and you're like, you learn like citizen kane yeah I'd seen that movie four times.

Speaker 2: 1:34:42

When we saw it last year in the theater and I came out, I was just like floating. Yes. I was like, oh my god. I revisited a lot of wells after that. I was just like I clearly was not ready for this.

Speaker 3: 1:34:58

Well, and not to keep talking about the Shining but every time I watch that movie or just have it on and catch a scene or a moment or a sequence or whatever, or whatever new things come out of it as my experience as a parent, uh, husband, as you know, a person trying to make work like jack torrance's, and there's all these new layers and levels and interpretations and I'm like how is it possible that I've seen this movie probably 30 times? Possible that I've seen this movie probably 30 times and then had it just on in the background and it keeps connecting more and more with my experiences as I go through life and to me that that is the subjective definition of a masterpiece. I don't, you know, we can sort of objectively declare a movie a masterpiece. For me to say masterpiece, I go. Every time I watch it. I'm connecting new things in my own experience and the human experience to this film and discovering new things every time, which you talk?

Speaker 2: 1:36:05

we talk about like that scratchy quality or maybe it's better as better described as like an ethereal or like yeah, can't put my finger on it, it's but it we've talked about it before of being like beyond intellect, right, you can only take an intellectual or like a formal piece, so far, right, and you have to be informal.

Speaker 2: 1:36:23

You have to go beyond that, the formalities of, you know, of a structure, of a, of a theme, into something that's a little more ethereal, a little harder to grasp, to create something that's, I mean, one of your favorites is apocalypse now and that's, you know, drawing from heart of darkness and from, like, very abstract interpretations of this very real thing. And, um, yeah, I mean, I think that's a quality of a lot of stellar art is balancing that formal with that, that kind of transcendent, ethereal quality. And I think creating something like that is more in tune with a myth than um, than a, a very like the worst form of this. It's like a very, uh, reductive contemporary idea. Yeah, and that's what you see a lot of now is my gosh, this is so popular and like, this idea is huge, this is the biggest thing in the world, this is life changing, and then, yeah, it's dated. The moment that it is, it's released, yep.

Speaker 3: 1:37:40

And I think, when we talk about his speech and this idea of blind certainty versus sort of openness and awareness and awareness, um, when you think about art criticism or film criticism, there is an attraction to me and the people that consume art and film open, uh, sort of in a obviously not pure or perfect, but sort of in a more objective state than a subjective state. There's no agenda, they're just open to the experience. Not to bag on Cody and Ashley, but they gave this example and they're not in art criticism. But they said numerous times the story of them seeing what was that movie With the movie they saw over Christmas Poor Things, yes, poor Things, it's a great movie.

Speaker 3: 1:38:38

They, you know, had sort of a perception of what it was going to be or what they hoped it would be, based on it being released around Christmas, what they saw from the trailer, the bright, vibrant colors, and they sort of went in with these expectations and when it wasn't that, they struggled. Now I'm not saying that they were wrong. They did something wrong. They're like the bad people because they did that.

Speaker 2: 1:39:03

It's just a good example of like not not taking that preconceived.

Speaker 3: 1:39:07

Yeah, and and and and you know and and and. Them if, if, and you know, and them, if possible, to go into a movie with no expectations, no agenda, no thoughts of what it could be or what they hope it will be for their own experience of Christmas or this or that that. If we can go into those experiences with that openness. Go to the grocery store. Not going. The fluorescent lighting is disgusting. These people are waiting in line. That lady hates her job at the cashier and all that, but to just go in. I mean, part of why I've enjoyed the photography that I've done is I want to go to those places and use the camera as a way to find the beauty in those places, not to just allow the camera to confirm my blind certainty.

Speaker 2: 1:39:57

It's like you said it's created with. Like you can find the same level of transcendence or beauty that you know, the star that present in the stars or the.

Speaker 3: 1:40:08

You know the most beautiful natural landscapes. You can find that beauty, and that's what I'm interested in most is how do you find the beauty? And you know the most beautiful natural landscapes. You can find that beauty. And that's what I'm interested in most is how do you find the beauty? And you know the sidewalk in midtown. You know Omaha, nebraska, or small town, iowa, or you know wherever we end up going and just see something that's like this impossible convergence of things or the way the light is hitting. You know the objects, uh, in frame. You know whatever it is, um, but if I went to that place going, this small town's a shithole. These people suck, um, why am I here? It's hot, blah, blah. You know all this stuff, like whatever you've photographed is just going to be. It's going to be nothing.

Speaker 2: 1:40:52

I do think that's one of the biggest things is we just have preconceived ideas about everything.

Speaker 3: 1:40:56

And we're.

Speaker 2: 1:40:57

We're so conceited that we there's no way that our own idea or our own perception could be even slightly wrong. And the reality is is anybody who thinks that way, their perception is wrong and that that's like you've already lost.

Speaker 3: 1:41:14

That's way their perception is wrong, like, and that that's like you've already lost. That's what you know again, you know. Coming back to popular culture, that's what kills me about groundhog day. I mean all of those things you just said. Literally, you can check a box. He hates going to this place year after year, the people this all he does is complain about. It's the last place he wants to be. And the universe says, all right, buddy, yeah, and. And he, literally, I think, like some people, speculate that he spent years living the same day over and over again until he could finally let his ego die and just see the beauty in all of it.

Speaker 3: 1:41:48

And I think we love that movie. Many of us do, because we get on a subconscious level, a deep subconscious level, that we desire that transformation for ourselves, but we don't know how to do it. And what's unfortunate about that movie is it uses a supernatural device to induce it, which makes us go. Well, as nice as that would be to have that transformation, it's not possible because the supernatural events, the only thing that could cause it. Yeah, there's no way that I could actually unlock awareness inside myself or respond to the consequences of my actions in a different way, learn, learn to apologize, exercise these muscles to develop myself as a better person, who can control my perception and have the awareness that lets me experience life in a deeper, richer, more meaningful way, rather than this egocentric, negative, blind certainty. Meaningful way rather than this egocentric, negative, blind certainty, poisoned, soulless, vapid existence, that that that leaves a wake of, of, of, of people who don't want to spend time with you.

Speaker 2: 1:43:08

Yeah, Um, when in reality, yeah, it's not. You don't need supernatural.

Speaker 3: 1:43:11

Yeah, you don't right it's right there within you to be able to do it. It's just fucking hard.

Speaker 2: 1:43:16

Well, and I you know that's the irony of the whole thing Like, like, obviously, david Foster Wallace, you know, didn't make it, he wasn't like, he had these intuitions and couldn't. It's tough, right, it's constant. There's no how I'm gonna do it and then it's gonna click and I'll never have to worry about it again. Um doesn't mean it's not worth no worth doing but, and I'm grateful.

Speaker 2: 1:43:49

I I think you you should rage against, like the default default mode as you call it. I think you should rage against, like the default mode, as he called it. I think you should constantly press back against that.

Speaker 3: 1:43:59

And, just you know, not only awareness of the forces at play in your life, but just an awareness of, like, how are people feeling when they're around me, you know, do they feel good? Do they want me around, do they?

Speaker 2: 1:44:17

it's interesting too. We, we gotta get off here because we're gonna have to put the clip at the beginning. Maybe we'll put it as a separate video, yeah, I don't know because, yeah, then the podcast listeners. But, um, what you're, what you're talking about right now, is like we've also kind of normalized the idea of, well, if they don't want to, you know, accept you as you are, then fuck them, that's right. When in reality, like no, the feedback is helpful.

Speaker 2: 1:44:48

Yeah yeah, you can't just completely shrivel up in your your own little pile of self and expect good things to happen and then, oh man, well, if they don't like me, then fuck them. Like, well, maybe, like, maybe. Maybe that's the proper response, but maybe it's. Maybe there is some something that needs to happen. There's a searching, there's a you. Maybe there is some something that needs to happen. There's a searching, there's a you know there's, there's work that needs to be done and you're just ignoring feedback.

Speaker 3: 1:45:22

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:45:23

So that's another.

Speaker 3: 1:45:25

And I say all this to wrap up my point, not as someone who has it all figured out. Yeah, there are people in my awake where my egocentric decisions and blind certainty led to relationship failure and my perception of things and managing my ego and all of that stuff on a daily basis. So I'm in the shit. Yeah, it is not. It is not just.

Speaker 2: 1:46:08

We're not. We're not sages. This is a thought leadership podcast.

Speaker 3: 1:46:11

I've got it nailed down.

Speaker 2: 1:46:12

Yeah, if you're taking your thought leadership from us, then there is a problem.

Speaker 3: 1:46:16

Yeah, I listen to his commencement speech and go, yeah, I've got it all. I'm good, I've got it all figured out. Great confirmation that I never do anything wrong. Yep, I am perfect, I am perfect.

Speaker 2: 1:46:33

He's talking nobody's the sinner, but I am. But I am Right, right, right, except me.

Speaker 3: 1:46:41

In this case, in this case, in this case of all the existence in my life.

Speaker 1: 1:46:48

It had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer.