Studio Sessions
Discussions about art and the creative process. New episodes every other week.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
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Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
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Studio Sessions
54. Embracing Necessary Imperfections
We examine how digital culture's promise of frictionless perfection has created unrealistic expectations that we unconsciously apply to relationships, creativity, and life itself. The conversation explores the psychological residue of living in an attention economy—how algorithmic thinking shapes our behavior even when we consciously reject it, and why we find ourselves reaching backward in time for tools and practices that feel more aligned with human limitations.
The discussion reveals how consumer culture has colonized our emotional lives, creating cycles of acquisition that promise depth but deliver dopamine hits instead. We explore the radical act of commitment in a culture designed around endless options—whether that's using one typewriter for a month, smoking the same tobacco consistently, or building sustained relationships with imperfect objects. Through examining our relationship with vintage technology and analog tools, we uncover deeper questions about attention, authenticity, and what it means to build genuine depth in a world optimized for surface-level engagement. The conversation suggests that embracing friction and imperfection isn't nostalgia—it's a necessary practice for psychological health in an over-optimized world. -Ai
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
And it had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer.
Speaker 2:Oh, so I forgot to mention not only did I get, okay, so the Leica, the two lenses with it, the crown graphic 4x5, the speed graphic 120. I also got a Kani Omega Rapid 200 medium format press camera and this is the camera that this guy used to shoot all the crime scene photos he was a crime scene photographer, so I got that with flashes of dead bodies, that's terrifying.
Speaker 2:I got that with the lens it came with, and then he had an additional wide angle lens from another manufacturer, a 58 millimeter. So I also have that lens, which is pristine, um. So I got all of those cameras plus a typewriter, plus a bunch of books, plus a couple of uh, like a harley davidson handkerchief I already sold for 20 bucks, yeah, and all this other stuff for 450 bucks. So it was a a big upfront spend. The value is there. There's a ton of work to do. I gotta clean all the cameras.
Speaker 2:I'm just thinking about your text yesterday like I'm getting backed up I'm like yeah, yeah, this is why I know it's like 70 items, yeah I blasted through a bunch of stuff yesterday, took a ton of stuff down to josh's shop and, um, I don't have a ton of time this afternoon but I have a few typewriters that just need. They don't need deep cleaning, but they need a little bit of cleaning, um, and I'll get those in the shop. I have three typewriters in josh's shop right now. I just brought a, a japanese um typewriter ultra portable in there, um, and they've been selling the typewriters, keep selling, so I'm gonna keep keep grabbing them so what is like the I have been thinking about we did.
Speaker 3:I think we just did like, yeah, 20 minutes on I know, yeah, like um another camera story I've been thinking about this like where, where does this go?
Speaker 3:like, what's the logical conclusion of all this vintage? Yeah, um, like you know, people are buying typewriters, people are buying cameras and they're buying these mechanical objects that will last. Yeah, and part of it, like, the logical conclusion could just be, it's another trend and the logical conclusion is, the trend goes away and, yeah, then everybody has one, and then you know, we're in 10 years. We're just back to square one. Yeah, but I do almost think the, the consciousness has been rewritten a little bit in terms of you've seen the value fluctuate or go up from nothing so many times that now, if you own one, you're probably more likely to just, I'm just going to keep that tucked away, just in case. Maybe not, maybe that's not the human we're just like that's the antithesis of how we approach.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this, but all of like vintage stuff has always been the cheaper alternative. Yeah, if this keeps going at this pace, I mean, obviously there's always just a bunch of vintage stuff, but there is kind of a line in the sand you could think of it probably like mid 70s of quality for a lot of things, and obviously there's some electronics that still have, you know decent quality to them, but electronics have a shelf life. A lot of them probably are shelf lives that don't matter to us, but because you know we don't, we have a shelf life too. People don't like to think about that, but we do, yep. But I think a lot of people do like these vintage objects because they are going to outlast them and something you can pass down like like this if you got this working like, there's no reason that this wouldn't also work in 300 years, as long as film is around, absolutely like. That's the only yeah.
Speaker 2:Caveat is as long as like the biggest thing going against it is just the, the lubrication getting yeah gummed up and it needing service yeah so what is do?
Speaker 3:does everything pre-1970 just become extremely expensive, more and more slowly over time? It's like this slow climb up this mountain.
Speaker 2:Well, probably too, because—.
Speaker 3:Or do we pick up modern manufacturing and realize, oh, we need to actually go back to making things like that because that— In my head I'm like I don't know if that market could ever really completely succeed? Obviously, you have the rarity of things, but eventually you see it right now with phone cameras, to an extent the market, the modern, contemporary market structure, is going to set in and be like there's an opportunity here. Yeah, we're going to make new things. Yeah. Hopefully they realize the quality is the component.
Speaker 2:Well, just like Pentax coming up with that half-frame camera, I mean well, just like pentax coming up with that half frame camera. I mean selling it for 500 and it's plastic and yeah, and you know, most of those point and shoots, even from the 80s and getting back into the 70s, are the same thing, but um I want like the, the.
Speaker 3:What would they like? A video I showed you where the guy made the game boy or whatever yeah and he. His idea was um, I want the best version of this right, um today. I want that for all of like. I want somebody to do that with typewriters. I want the best version of the ultra portable typewriter and I think there's a version.
Speaker 2:There's gonna be people like that that again, what I want doesn't exist, I'm going to make it. And while they may not take over the world and be a mass-produced product at that high of a quality, the democratization of a lot of things, it feels like, has included people's ability to learn how to, you know, create things aluminum housing, or how to weld, how to um 3d print something, how to um use design software to create something and then pay a machinist, a factory, a fabricator, you know whatever to make the things that they want. And do you know reasonably priced, small batch, high quality items? I've mentioned the company Retrospect, and this isn't them creating original things, but they are buying up as much vintage stuff as they can, from typewriters to cameras, polaroids, point-and-shoots, all that and they have technicians and stuff that are on staff that tear these things down to like spare parts, clean them all and put them all back together, and that includes Walkmans. I mean I'm like, how do you guys make any money?
Speaker 2:off of this stuff. You have to pay somebody to take apart that Sony Walkman, but they are able to use their marketing and all that to get premium prices for something In Josh's shop. If I had a fully functional Sony Walkman that had new belts in it, I can probably get $60 for it, but these guys are selling them for $200, $300. 60 bucks for it? Yeah, but these guys are selling them for 200 300 dollars yeah, but with sophisticated marketing and content creation and all that kind of stuff, there's certain people kind of like the video that you showed me, that see, see that value and is that like a we'll pay for it?
Speaker 3:is that because that's where I kind of I have. I think I have a slight issue with it, with the resale stuff is inflating it off of just marketing yeah, right, that's our world anyways, but yeah there's so much garbage that, like contemporary product, that is just trash that gets inflated by hyper marketing and then it gets.
Speaker 3:The price jumps up and it's like this is crap yeah so I hate that the idea of that happening with older products, but I also understand it. Like you're selling something you need to make money off of it, how do you even establish there's really no such thing as a fair value for something that, like, its usefulness is hypothetically its usefulness is completely depreciated. Right, if you're buying a typewriter from 1942 or something? Yes, so where's the fair value for that thing? Like, do you price the metal that's in it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like there's really no that's in it and then yeah, like there's really. No, it's hard because I do have to price the typewriters. You know a little bit of sort of gut instinct, my own experience with what I've seen prices online or prices in some of the typewriter facebook groups I'm in like what's the general sense out there of what someone's willing to pay? And I'll be honest, you know some of them, I haven't priced them crazy high, but there's a few where I'm like honestly surprised that people paid for it Like this isn't worth it.
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's worth it. But I'm just like, like I had a Remington 1040, really nice typewriter. I bought it for $30 at an estate sale, had the case needed almost no work done to it. It was all fine mechanically. I just took the shell off, degreased it, hosed it down, re-lubricated it, cleaned the tight bars, all of that stuff, you know, probably took me an hour and you know part of it is I'm just looking at it and assessing the cool factor. How does, like design-wise, wise, what does this feel like to me? Is this one where it's a head turner? Or it's kind of like? Kind of a bland, utilitarian typewriter, like a remington quiet writer, you know, like just a green looking thing that looks like it fell off a jeep in world war ii, you know yeah versus.
Speaker 2:You know these mid-century ones that are, you know, teal, or robin's egg blue, or you know, have sloping, you know kind of curved designs. So I'm just looking, I'm like this one, this feels like 145 bucks to me here in omaha in a shop and, sure enough, like two days later, you know, and we, josh let's, you know, I always tell josh, I'm like there's always wiggle room. Someone really wants this thing and they want it for 130 bucks sell it.
Speaker 3:Negotiate yeah, like I don't care. Get rid of, especially because, yeah, you're getting these things in mass.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, you know. And again you know, you sell one and people get the bug and you know. You see what's happened to me. I've got 10 of them. Do you think it's?
Speaker 3:do you think people are? I mean, how much do? Are you still like a daily user of your typewriter? Absolutely.
Speaker 2:All my record labels, like I sell records in Josh's shop. I type them all with the typewriter. All the notes I put when I sell a camera on eBay are written with the typewriter.
Speaker 3:What's your favorite non-commercial use for it right now? Do you still get down? And just chop around.
Speaker 2:To-do lists. My daily to-do lists Stream of consciousness writing. Feel um my daily to-do lists, um stream of consciousness writing. Feel inspiration and just jump on there, throw a piece of paper in and start letting it rip um letters to the friends and family. Dude, I love, I love. Like sending a bill off to the water company, putting the envelope in the typewriter and typing the destination address. I usually use a sticker label for my address.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I really do want to do more letters. I think that's letters.
Speaker 2:That's going to be my thing for the next, the big thing with the letters is it's almost less of a letter. I think of it as just a note.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It is, it's low stakes, it's just whatever comes to mind and people, people tend to make the argument oh yeah, well, text messaging and email replaced the letter, and I would almost argue, no, they didn't, the letter just went away completely. Yeah, text messaging and email and phone calls yes, you can communicate, you can catch up with somebody yeah um, and it's easier, so maybe to that extent like the phone call, but people were still writing letters in the 90s.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:The phone had been around for, you know, 70 years at that point.
Speaker 2:I also use a smaller piece of paper, so I don't feel like I have to fill up a full traditional piece of paper.
Speaker 3:There's something really cool about like hey, I'm thinking about you, or this is what I'm thinking about right now Felt, like it would be cool to share. Or this is what I'm thinking about right now, felt like it would be cool to share.
Speaker 2:Or I really enjoyed our conversation, you know, last week. You know that thing. Or you know, I'm looking forward to seeing you when I come out in the fall. You know, whatever it is, it can you know? Yeah, I thought of you the other day. I mean, I'll write just a simple short three-paragraph letter. You know dear whatever Little little paragraph, little paragraph, you know fondly, matthew, you know yeah and put it in that it gets you better at writing without editing too.
Speaker 3:yeah, in a way, yeah, because you're you're just kind of like we're so used to just vomit everything, right, and then go back, go back and click the okay, correct the spell right, correct this, add this comma semicolon here, period here, whatever. And writing a letter really kind of trains you to just edit while you're going through, because it's a real pain in the ass.
Speaker 2:If you make a bunch of mistakes, you have to literally put a new piece of paper in and copy the letter, and copying on a typewriter is not like copying on a computer where you can just kind of like right, it's like, yeah, so, and I think for me, you know, if there's any, it's a good skill influence that I'll have in the stuff that I make. It's just, uh, you know, wanting feeling an excitement about older things, older technology, um, and like we just talked about how to use a typewriter, like I don't know if that'll be a video that I make on my channel, but it'd be like you know, you probably think that a typewriter is pointless for you, but here are five things that I use it for where it's not overwhelming Just typing up a to-do list or a label or an envelope or a quick note to a friend. Typewriter that you got at an estate sale, or a $20 typewriter you found at a thrift store to just have it on your desk, to use it for those slow productivity moments to connect with something from the past, something tangible. It isn't a computer with blue light and a screen and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:So if Retrospect is doing like hard marketing influencers, you know, talking, hyping up Walkmans and typewriters and all that stuff you know I want mine to be more of that quiet curation and just like it was with you in this space showing me your typewriter and that kind of catalyzing oh, it's interesting. And you showing me letting me shoot that kind of catalyzing oh it's interesting. And you showing me letting me shoot with the leica m9 and just going, oh, this is, this is what I'm. This is like an experience I forgot existed, and, and I'm enjoying it, and I'm gonna go absolutely ape shit on acquiring these things and and uh, and using them. I'll wrap up. The sad thing is, though, that the passion for this stuff has me completely lopsided with acquiring more of it to then share with other people and I'm not actually spending enough time using them.
Speaker 2:You mentioned you were going to go do some photography this morning and I'm thinking I got to time using them. You mentioned you were going to go do some photography this morning and I'm thinking I got to run out to that estate sale out west because there's a 19-inch TV VCR combo and a Smith Corona typewriter and I want to snag that stuff so I can put it in Josh's shop, both to make some money but to give people opportunities to acquire this stuff in a reasonable way here in Omaha people opportunities to acquire this stuff in a reasonable way here in omaha and then that that literally kills my day for for going out and actually making work, yeah for sure.
Speaker 3:So I need to work on get a little bit more balance that way yeah, well, you're gonna have to help me find a uh one of those crt computer monitors so I can build my weather station.
Speaker 2:Yes, now you want a computer monitor, or you want um, you want a TV monitor.
Speaker 3:So this is really dumb to do live. I mean, I think, if I like, I could describe what I want to do to people and they would be like, why? And I, I literally don't have an answer Like it's why do I do any of this stuff? Yeah um, but so I, I want to build. I want to install windows on a raspberry pi, yes, and then install this piece of software called, like I think it's, the weathertron 4000 and so it's the.
Speaker 3:It's the software like the, the presentation software that the weather channel used in like 1980 and 1990s, and it's just weather yeah and there's two. There's also the 3000, which is more blue screen. It looks like a government, like broadcast screen or something. I like. The 4000 it's one of the most beautiful pieces of art cultural art. And I literally want a painting of it. That's useful.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like you know, we talked about like having like people using these old CRT monitors for like I mean, it's total waste of energy too but people using these monitors for like stock tickers or like you set up a news terminal or something yeah and it's just all written word.
Speaker 3:Or you set up an ai um interface through a terminal where you have, like, you take the graphical aspects out of it and it's, you take all the dopamine out, it's just like text, um, and I want to do that with weather dude, just to kind of have a weird little painting of the omaha weather I wish at all times, and so I I don't know if I want, I don't know if there's a crt monitor tv that's smaller than that, but then I'm also like there are I like the idea seeing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is where I also like the idea yeah, this is where I also like the idea, though, of having that desktop monitor 100% yeah. Because then I could kind of yeah, I mean I could probably even skin Windows to like. Be an older. I mean that's stupid, though I don't really want. It's not the oldness. Yeah yeah, yeah, it's just like they built this timeless, beautiful design and I want it to be displayed on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the biggest thing, the biggest thing to figure out with that we won't spend too much time talking about the technical is the, the thing that's going to house the Raspberry Pi cap, getting a signal, of a video signal, out of that and into an older style CRT which typically has you know, the ones I'm thinking of have a VGA connection.
Speaker 3:And I'm sure it's easily doable. So I would have to do HDMI to Like a VGA. Vga yeah.
Speaker 2:Which those adapters exist, I'm sure, or there's a you know like I have just RCA composite to HDMI that I use to digitize VHS.
Speaker 3:Well, that's what I have on all the CRTs and I think these little Like that project sounds.
Speaker 2:This is going to be a little corny, but it sounds beautiful to me. I just think of the inspiration, the vision you have for that, what that vibe does for you. And first of all, I get very selfish and I'm like, please document the process. And just dude. It doesn't even have to be a video where you talk to camera, it's just a wide and a couple shots of you connecting it and firing it up. I just want to feel like I'm hanging out with you while you do it.
Speaker 3:I might make a video after, so I sent you all of these. My obsession for the last year has been making a website.
Speaker 1:And I sent you all this indie web stuff that I got sucked into.
Speaker 3:And I sent you one of the videos and I mean it's just something I've been into for a while the non-corporate web, or whatever I love. One of my favorite things in the last couple of years has been going back and reading books about the internet in the 90s. Oh, dude, I was on it.
Speaker 3:It's funny because it's more of that going back to close the loop like you have to go back like, okay, we went astray down a path, now we have to go back to where the path was the most open and then we create a new loop, like that's how I'm thinking of it.
Speaker 3:And so I'd go back and I read these things from the 90s and the vision was so open and we went one way and it, you know, we kind of fucked up. In my opinion and in most people's opinion, I don't think that's a hot take at this point, yeah, and we, we like, got a little greedy and we jacked it up, but like the core technology is still there, like nothing has changed, it's completely democratized. The whole point of the internet is that it's open and no matter what people will try to say or try to scare people into thinking, it's still there, it still exists. I can literally host my own thing right now, I can do whatever I want, and that just gets me pumped, like the original vision of what that technology was supposed to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's me super excited and little projects like, yeah, um, you know that it, it's similar to that. Yeah, like, okay, that's a. This is a single use piece of technology that also doubles as, like a piece of art.
Speaker 3:Um, this is a single use piece of technology that also doubles as like a piece of art. But then you talked about making the video and I you know I've been trying to build like this website for a while now and hopefully that'll come live in a bit, and then I want to put start putting like videos there. So I might maybe I'll do like a YouTube thing and then re-host them there, but I might also just do private on youtube and yeah or unlisted, and then host them on the website only.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just use youtube as, like a hosting platform. Um, that way, you know, I don't know it's it's more of that original like that was the original intention of youtube. Was you host your videos here and then you put them on your website? Yep and um, so we'll see, but I don't know. That's an interesting thing to me. Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Exploring that. That's like a and it feels separate. We've had the discussions before about like, oh yeah, like why do you not, you know, just do the YouTube videos, or why don't you do this? And my YouTube channel got like demonetized for lack of, and I just I just don't really.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know it doesn't really bother me that much, but the metrics part bothers me. I kind of like the idea better of just building a little community space online and, um, it doesn't feel as. It doesn't feel as it just feels different. It's like separated from the like. I can do that and document a bunch of stuff there and like thoughts and everything and it's mine and it's personal, and then I can also do. It's not as much like oh, I'm going to be a content creator and I'm going to try to make this work that I feel is important. It's more just like this is me, this is my little corner, yeah, and then it informs all the other stuff. It feels more cohesive. I think that's great.
Speaker 2:We'll see. Especially, you know my experience with just like going to websites in the late nineties. You know the website was a self-contained experience and it had things you could do places to click, resources, faq, videos to watch.
Speaker 3:For anybody who hasn't heard of the IndieWeb, just give it a search and start looking through some of these websites, because I mean, and they're goofy and they're like really niche and yes it's. You know, there's a type of website and it's like quizzes and pop and and it's very 90s, uh, but I think there's like kernels of wisdom in there of you know. It starts with like, oh, we're revisiting this thing, and then the idea grows into something where it's like oh, what can I do with this? That's? And there's still blogs and stuff like that. That are super interesting.
Speaker 3:But, yeah, like you don't have to host your blog on Substack Right, it's nice because it has discovery, but you know, it's like you could totally just host a blog. Yep. Um, the discovery is the biggest thing, though, because then you're probably going to have to come to one of these walled platforms to Yep, well, and I think the commerce side.
Speaker 2:I think some people just go well, but I can get monetized. Or if this does catch on, you know it's cool to have a website that has videos or content on it that are, you know, getting mentioned or people are sharing them or there's sort of virality no-transcript.
Speaker 2:Or just it is what it is it's not about. There isn't a commerce element underneath it. But I think we've all been trained like well, if you're going to invest the time and energy into like making this project or this work or whatever, like what's your plan to capitalize on it, you've got to treat it like there's all this.
Speaker 3:I mean, the best, best example this is one of my favorite things in the web is open source communities yeah you'll have people that dedicate 20 years of their life to improving a product that you know hasn't been officially updated for 20 years and it but they're.
Speaker 3:They're working on it day and night for no money and you see a little bit of that in like um, like certain web3 communities or in certain like like. There's browsers that, yeah, have been kept up. There's games there's a lot in like game. I think of like matt, like, uh, not the madden but the madden competitor 2k5 yeah, yeah, they still re-release that tech. Mobile tech still re-release it.
Speaker 3:Uh, there's this, this driving sim game that I just learned about, called, I think it's, grand prix legends okay, was released in 1998 and I mean there's literally people that have spent thousands of hours designing like completely accurate with physics courses, of these, like 70 mile drives, and then they had to go in and report the game because it wouldn't allow you to create a course that's like over 20k.
Speaker 3:So then they have to figure out okay, what's stopping this? Okay, how do we make this five times larger? And we're gonna reskin it. And this game is still relevant 27 years later because you have this completely dedicated community that is just doing it for the love of like man, like the guy that designed this one course. He's like yeah, I'm Italian, so I just wanted to do it right. He's like this could be my contribution to like keeping a piece of history that I care about relevant for future generations.
Speaker 2:And this for me feels like, like you just perfectly described the, the, the root reason I am sort of fixated on acquiring stuff, and that was.
Speaker 3:It is not that quote that I just said was actually something that I was. I was thinking of you when I heard it, because he said I just want to preserve these things, yeah, and like show why this is cool. Yep, because it doesn't like. That course doesn't exist in real life anymore. It hasn't been an official like a formula one race course, or not even I don't. It was never really a formula one, but it was a uh, it was like um endurance racing, enduro racing, and it hasn't been an official race course since 1968 maybe yeah yeah, so like you've got this guy who's he's doing like his father or grandfather's generation, and just to keep it alive something that doesn't exist anymore.
Speaker 3:The area has changed. He's like this is like the most beautiful thing. Right for that, this hyper niche. He's like I gotta preserve it and so I look.
Speaker 2:You know everything from a restaurant that a chef has, to this Leica, to a typewriter, to whatever. And here's what happens to my brain. I sit there and I go. First of all, this is interesting to me Just by first glance. There's something about it that speaks to me and I start spinning this not a story, but this emotion around the people or person who dedicated their life to this thing. I watched that Polaroid documentary about Edwin Land and the SX-70 Land camera and I completely I mean the first time I held one I was like holy shit, this is amazing, life-changing experience. And then I watched the documentary and everything that went into good and bad making that thing. I was at the estate sale this past Friday and this will be quick.
Speaker 3:No, take it, we got time will be quick.
Speaker 2:I don't take it, we got time. I um have become sort of uh fixated on going to estate sales, in part because if I get lucky enough to go to a house where and this is predominantly more common with the, the wife, it seems where they were an aspiring artist and they have their own paintings in the house, mixed with the paintings that they've bought that are expensive and by expensive I mean probably in the $500 to $2,000 range something they bought when they were in Europe or an art gallery or whatever. And they have this appreciation of finer art and within reason for them to afford. But they also were making paintings in their home themselves.
Speaker 2:I saw a painting, you know, of a barn and you know the little weathervane windmill thing. And my friend Mark, who has just like the most amazing taste, he found it sort of unremarkable and he wasn't negative about it or mean or anything, but he's just like. You know, I can find you a better painting of a barn or whatever, and I didn't explain this to him, but I'm like, but this person, yeah, what it represents is greater than what it represents is greater than even if it was a hobby.
Speaker 2:There was something in them where they were drawn to paintings and they bought easels and they bought they wanted to make an attempt, whatever they yeah, they, whether it was from a technical standpoint or they, they, they were expressing themselves through these scenes or whatever, and i'm'm like I want to own their artwork.
Speaker 3:It's so funny Let me finish this.
Speaker 2:I want to own their artwork. That is their attempt to be in alignment with these painters that they revered. Yeah, and there's something in that that I love. It's not that the painting is a technical or artistic masterpiece. It's they were trying and they made something that's you know it's good, but it's not magic, and that I want that in my house.
Speaker 3:It's. I was just going to say the value coming from the personal. Yeah, like it's like a deeply personal story. You, yes, gives that more value. That example of if you could only grab two objects and your house is burning down and or you grab one thing and it's like, okay, over here you've got this beautiful five thousand dollar, you know, mac studio or whatever, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:And then over here you've got this. Yeah, you know you're like, okay, I want the thing like my dad's watch, or I want the painting that represents my entire life's work, or yeah.
Speaker 2:It's just, there's something about all of the energy and effort and focus that goes into making something and the ability for me to acquire it, and I think that's why I have so many objects in my studio and spreading into the house. And there's a little bit of an unhealthy side to that when you start getting into 10, 15 typewriters. But you know, that'll you know and that that'll you know get kind of dealt with. But I had kind of forgotten that I I I had, you know, adopted a lot of objects of great beauty to me, both the emotion I ascribed to them, but then just knowing like these people or this person literally dedicated their life to this and you get to own it or eat it or drink it or experience it it's interesting I'm just thinking out loud here, but I would love to see that like, I guess like a no-spin equivalent now that you have, yeah, amassed all of these objects.
Speaker 3:so one thing I think about is um a buddy of mine, um casey. We both share this hobby of you know know, pipe smoking, yeah, like okay we'll.
Speaker 3:We'll just put like, try different tobaccos and different pipes. And we found out like, kind of came to the realization, like we keep buying all these new, like oh, I got to try this one, I got to try this one, got to try this one. And we're like, honestly, honestly, I rather like the thing that is most romantic to us is this idea that one person you know smokes one tobacco. Oh yeah, my granddad always had smelled like this or like, and it's kind of similar with music, like if you listen to the same song over and over you, you're essentially pasting your experiences onto that. Yeah, and it's, it is the best thing. And you can do this with smell. You can do this with visuals to an extent. You can do this with music, um, taste, obviously. But you can almost take a period of time or a specific moment and lock it into this, this thing, forever. Yeah and um.
Speaker 3:So that's what attracted us to the, the hobby or, you know, whatever pipe smoking would be defined as. So probably a year or so ago, we started deciding like, okay, we're just going to smoke like this one tobacco for a month, or like this one for a month, and just commit to doing this and and I would love to see that from your perspective of, because it gives you such a appreciation of that one and you start to explore it and find little idiosyncrasies, or like I don't actually like this, like I thought I liked the idea of this, but I don't actually like this specific one, or this, and, um, I would love to see that with your objects that you've kind of collected, yes, like, what does it look like? When you're like okay, like I don't know, say in January, you're like, okay, not buying anything for myself anymore for six months. Yep, and you just, these are the, these are what I own. I'm going to use them and just write about them. Yep, almost like a reportage, like I'm just going to okay there's one typewriter for a month.
Speaker 3:Every thought I have, I'm going to record it. And, yeah, you could put it in a video or whatever the format is. That would be interesting.
Speaker 2:That's interesting yeah.
Speaker 3:Just okay, like I'm only going to listen to these two records, yeah. For the entire month like, okay, you're creating these artificial constraints. And then you have to go through and be like, oh man, if I'm only going to listen to two, what are they going to be? Do you want one that's like a comfortable, like you know, it's going to be good, and then one that's kind of experimental, that you don't really appreciate, right, but building. Because you have all these great items now and I'm like I would love to start seeing that.
Speaker 3:What does that personality your personality look like when, as it's kind of pasted on, I don't know why I'm saying paste it on.
Speaker 2:I'm picturing whitewashing, a you know, paper mache right into a uh onto yeah well, I think that's, you know, sort of a good challenge for someone that is drawn to collecting or acquiring, is not to get caught in that loop and then sort of generally use certain items, this typewriter, listen to that record, whatever, um, but to focus more on, you know, going through them, like, spend, spend a month on one typewriter, you know, the underdog one or the one that you like, but you, you know, probably the first one that you would, you would sell if you had to start, um, unloading them.
Speaker 2:Um, I actually did that when I prepped the typewriter that I took to Josh's shop on Friday. Uh, I, you know, I type up a whole summary of my experience with it and what I know of it. Where did I get it, what's it called, where was it made? What store was it sold in typically, what's it feel like to write with it? Is it easy on the ears? Any quirks that it has? I do this big write-up and I'm like this typewriter is really good. I'm like oh dang.
Speaker 2:I'm like a lot of the metal. Ultra portables from the 70s late 60s really hurt my ears. They don't have as much sound dampening and all that. And so I'm sitting there going. Do I really want to sell this? But I'm like just move it along.
Speaker 3:Move it along. Who's the YouTube channel? She does this with cameras. It's like one-.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Allie, Two months one camera. Two months, one camera.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's just such a cool concept it is, it's great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would love to.
Speaker 3:You've got so much cool stuff too. I just think it would play really well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that was a really fun conceit that she came up with, especially not that she came up with, especially not that she thought of it to differentiate herself from other camera content creators. But I think, because she, you know, kind of the undercurrent of her, similar to me, is the gear acquisition syndrome, You're just like constantly wanting to experiment with new cameras and that was a challenge to herself.
Speaker 3:Like just focus on it. I think it's important to be like-.
Speaker 2:One month, two cameras? I think Is it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, one month, two cameras, Just the idea, though, that you know the acquisition is fun. It sure is. It's amazing, yep, don't get me wrong. Yep, but there is something about building personal experience onto an object.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And just okay, don't acquire anything else, just and just okay, don't acquire anything else, Just spend time with this, build a relationship with this, because it does take time. It takes a long time, but that relationship just gets more and more insightful and just the depth is almost limitless.
Speaker 3:Once you start, it can be a very simplistic thing that doesn't really seem like it would have a lot of depth on the surface. But time reveals all of these intricate little, because you're not. You know, it's not always like the features of the object. A lot of times it's the object in relation to the context that you're bringing to it that day. So what is this object like on a good day? What is this object like on a bad day? Yeah, I think if we explored the world like that or things like that, it would be a much healthier relationship with things than than the one we have, because I do think we have a lot of like. I just I need this or this. This is great, but it doesn't do this it's like, well, what does this do really well?
Speaker 3:and you see that you know, in some places where people are looking at something or they're like, oh man, this is my favorite for this kind of thing, but I just, yeah, I want to see more of that. I want more of exploring a thing like that clock. That clock has been there for what? Like five years, yeah, and I guess no three years, because I got it because we were doing this podcast and we needed a way to track time.
Speaker 2:Yep, so especially in your eye line, because yeah, you track it.
Speaker 3:I love that clock so much. That clock cost a dollar. It keeps perfect time. It's super cheap, but it looks so good. If it was gone it would look empty there. It's like I just love it.
Speaker 2:I've looked at that clock.
Speaker 3:I've thought about it on good days and bad days. I will never look at that clock and not think about I was having a conversation at this table, because we've put 100 hours of time into building that.
Speaker 2:yeah and I have my um two clocks. I have one on the left side of the room and one on the right, depending on which direction I'm looking and they're two sound design, which is a company that made alarm clocks. They're sweet, they're tape the tape, uh, cassette tape um alarm clocks, and you know they're tape the tape, uh, cassette tape um alarm clocks. And you know they're red and digital, whereas yours is, you know, traditional, um, uh, a regular clock and uh I love that.
Speaker 2:Uh, like a analog clock clock, I guess yeah, you gotta read it to tell time yeah it just tells you, uh, and yeah, I love them, love them for that reason as well. I actually picked up a third sound design, but a Sony Dream Machine alarm clock, a little white one, and have that in the mix as well. And yeah, I just.
Speaker 3:There's something about. Yeah. There's just something about committing to an object and being like okay, you're not perfect, Neither am I. Let's figure this thing out together.
Speaker 2:Figure it out together.
Speaker 3:And not look for something better.
Speaker 3:It's yeah, it's a lot like I mean, that's kind of the expectation you should have for a human too, right, if you were in a human relationship. It's like you're not perfect. Neither am I. Let's figure it out, right.
Speaker 3:I think we have developed a different relationship with our objects and we kind of have a culture where, at least from a noise perspective, the culture is dominated by our relationship to our objects, unfortunately, and I think it has created some unhealthy expectations, because we're starting to bring that oh you don't do this or you don't do this well, so I need to replace you with something that does. We've started to bring that into our relationships, like expecting perfection out of our objects, as if it's like some linear graph where you have to just continue to get better and better and everything's linear. We've started to bring that into our relationships a little bit, where we're expecting perfection out of a partner or a friend, or you know if we find something out about it, that isn't, that's just dangerous. That's a really bad way to approach the world, I think. And I think maybe the solution, the solution obviously you'd hope the solution starts with the people, but I do think we kind of start with our objects and then we, we just put that lens on everything.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, start redefining the relationship that you have with your objects and well, especially if those objects require you know they're not some perfect, easy, streamlined, convenient, iterated upon thing that you know has as few obstacles as possible in the use of it. You know I like some of the objects I've acquired because they're quirky or oh you can't do that, you got to kind of do it this way. Or, you know, you got to have a little bit of friction in using it. And there's, you know, maybe other things where if it's not working correctly, it's like it's got to go. You know this thing needs to be replaced.
Speaker 2:The faucet isn't doing this correctly or it's blocked up. I can't fix it, you know, whatever Like, sorry, you're in the trash and you're getting replaced with something new. And I think too, with the relationship thing, not only that expectation of perfection, sometimes from those in our lives, but also an expectation of perfection and how we handle everything OK in this situation, this person's upset, I'm going to deescalate, you know, I'm going to deploy self-awareness. I'm going to do this Like you're going through the playbook of all the things that make you like the perfect human and you're working on.
Speaker 3:ironically, you're focusing on you inside the other person. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, you know, maybe just having a little bit of grace with the um, the, the chaos that can sometimes and this doesn't mean like it's okay to be abusive or you know whatever but give yourself a little, a little leeway if, um, if you don't handle everything perfectly.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We could go down a whole other pathway with this, but I was not expecting this conversation after our pre-show. I kind of took it over with the Laika story and then it just went where it went, and that's kind of interesting that we were talking about something completely different to start. We're like, well, let's get started, because we're going to talk about this.
Speaker 3:And then we didn't have a talked about it at all direction. I do think, though, like the way that it relates, in a sense, because part of what we, what we were discussing in the pre-show, was, you know, certain attitudes that people have that cause them more trouble than they probably realize yeah and maybe they're adapt, adopting that perspective or that attitude because it's in the cultural consciousness, it's in the zeitgeist, or maybe it's just it seems like the easiest thing.
Speaker 3:maybe, yeah, when you're weighing it against your, the obligation, it it is easier to come to terms with and some of the alternatives would be. But I mean, yeah, I think we, we have this and it really is. More of it has gotten, it has gotten, it's consumed more of our world since digital technology, because digital technology gives us this illusion of almost perfection. Yes, and yeah, I think we do chase after that and it's started to influence the way that we interact.
Speaker 3:And it's like you can't just, it's not meant, humans aren't meant to do that.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 3:And I mean, I don't know what humans are meant to do, so who knows? But it just we've been doing things in a very imperfect way for the entire period of time we've existed, and all of our myths, all of our stories point towards this reality. And so there's, you know you have to almost embrace that and you know, kind of expect that, yeah, and that's okay. Yeah, there's. Yeah, you know you have to. It's a framework that doesn't fit on what it means to be human.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think you know the conversations we've had in the past about technology, everything from you know Technopoly and what it does to us and how massive revolutions in technology from the printing press to you know television and all of that stuff. You know part of the cultural zeitgeist right now. At least what the algorithm is serving up to me—and I know you're off the algorithm, which is great—but what the algorithm is serving up to me from a few of the things I've watched is just, you know, people trying to embrace discomfort, people trying to embrace inconvenience, people trying to embrace friction and how they interact with everyday objects. When you can tell a HomePod to play whatever music you want in the world, obviously there are some blind spots that it has. In some of the stuff that I've acquired, I'll pick up a record and I'm like cool, when I'm in the kitchen cooking, I don't have a record player in there. I can play this record on the HomePod. Well, it's not available on Apple Music, so I can only listen to the record.
Speaker 2:You might look at, someone who has a HomePod can literally tell it whatever they want to listen to instantly, but they're going to go to this bin. Pull out a record, pull out a black disc, stick it on the record player, clear off the dust, drop the needle, whatever, and listen to it. That way, with equipment they had to acquire I had to get a receiver, I had to get speakers, I had to get a record player. Those require service and maintenance and bulbs and belts and needles and all this stuff, you know it just seems ludicrous. Why would you not embrace the HomePod? We have iterated on this technology.
Speaker 2:It's perfect, yeah, this thing of listening to music and this little tiny thing—I have the HomePod Mini—the little tiny thing has room-filling, warm sound, everything you want through Apple Music, all this stuff. You know why we are so fixated on, consciously or subconsciously, reducing all of the steps and the friction and all this stuff. And then we're all finding out, whether it's with our phones, the HomePod, whatever, like it's boring.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's all the stuff that gives it flavor and life and quirks. I was thinking about this yesterday. We were on highways for a while and I was thinking about this idea of the highway and this is maybe I mean it's a goofy. It's not original and it's pretty goofy, but it's like this idea that when we're driving, that we literally went out just to drive, yeah, just to go and experience the highway, and it was a scenic byway, the Iowa Scenic Byway or the Lewis Hills Scenic Byway.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, did you go south toward Glenwood North North.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and we made it Old Lincoln Highway. We want to do the whole thing eventually, but we went north and the experience was wonderful, because you're just like you're just there to drive, yep.
Speaker 3:And it made me think, you know, we've kind of built our entire society in the last hundred years or so around this idea that you've got to reach this destination. It's all about the destination Right, right, right, and. But everything was kind of designed around this idea of, like, we're here to just drive Right, drive Right. I think people were a lot happier, life was a lot happier when the perspective of most people was I'm just driving.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm just experiencing and like it whatever I can do to get a little bit of color in my day to day experience, whether that's you know having to go through some friction with dealing with an object to play some music, or whether that's you know a person who's completely different than anybody that you've seen before or who's saying something that's different or who's acting in a way that's quote-unquote, like bizarre.
Speaker 3:That's color. It's giving color, whether it's a place that you walk in and you're like, wow, this is interesting, why did we make these decisions? It's adding to the experience. It's adding to the the drive. It's look at that tree, oh, look at that cow, look at that house, look at that truck. Yeah, that's what it and we've we've kind of focused around.
Speaker 3:It's just about the destination and it's like, well, spoiler alert, the destination is you die, that's it. Yes, like there, that's the only destination. And like it's not a fun destination and like you can set these career milestones and most people you know, if you look at the psychology behind it or you know people's experience, they reach these highs or they achieve these things that they set out to achieve and they're like, yeah, it kind of sucked after like five minutes or 10 minutes or a day or a week, like what didn't mean anything. Yeah, it's because it's never been about the thing, it's been about the process to get there. Yeah, and if you realign yourself to think like that, um, it changes everything I wanted to touch on. You said I'm off the algorithm. I think it's interesting, cause like I'm off the algorithm technically.
Speaker 3:I'm not, though, because everything that I consume is influenced by the algorithm. Yeah, because all the people I'm consuming are influenced right like there is no escaping the algorithm or the zeitgeist like it is what it is like yeah, you know I I thought I was talking about in the pre-show a little bit about like, oh, I'm hearing like these things pop up all the time and yep, just like over and over. And yeah, even the things we're talking about here they're not like original things, they're probably influenced by the algorithm.
Speaker 3:Whether we like it or not. I mean, the only way to be off the algorithm, I guess, would be to remove yourself from digital, but then at that point it's like also remove yourself from society or cultivate a group of friends who are also off the algorithm.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I mean, I like the original algorithm, there's just no way. Which would be like the internet doesn't exist, social media none of that exists, and the algorithm is just word of mouth.
Speaker 3:See, but I— Just what people think about stuff. The other thing I want to—like we sit here and complain about technology. It's like there's a lot of technology that's really good. Absolutely, we both agree with that. Like there's nuance to this.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because I hear a lot. It is like I see right now to be like anti-tech.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And you know what I agree A lot of it is. It's exploitative and it's like just crappy and it's, you know, orwellian, and there's a lot of crap that like, but you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater, that like, but you can't throw the baby out with the bath water. And that's probably what's going to happen, because that's what our culture is really good at is. You're going to have this group of people who just, like tech is all about I'm going to be amish or like whatever, yeah, and I'm not necessarily saying that's a bad thing, but also like learn how to work these things together, like we just have.
Speaker 2:We live in a world where all of these things exist, so it's up to you to make something and vibrant out of it, and when we we say technology, we mean more sort of like elect, like generally electronic yeah you know um uh type technology, obviously every human tool and all that is technically technology.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that yeah, I guess we that's which is also, again, that's a good piece of nuance right in and of itself. Yeah, um, but yeah, just there's this attitude of like all digital technology is bad and yeah, just like there's nuance to that, just like there's nuance to everything, and you're not going to hear it because it doesn't sound good in a tiktok. But right, we'll talk about it. Yeah, and there's plenty of other people who are going to talk about it too, and yeah, there's some people that are completely misaligned with their incentives and they will talk like tech is the lifeblood of the world and it's the only solution.
Speaker 3:But you know, and you, you can discredit those people. And it can also be true at the same time that there are a lot of solutions and there are a lot of things that will be solved that have been problems for years by digital technology, right? So it's like, yes, you can have snake oil salesmen, and then you can have people that are also, you can have technology that's actually going to meaningfully improve the world.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think again, everything's about balance. You know, you know you can be on one side, one extreme side, and it's like stark minimalism.
Speaker 3:You know, you have as few objects as possible. I was thinking about minimalism when you were making your point earlier.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or you know the complete opposite where things are, you know, maybe unhealthy hoarding of of objects um or uh, instead of you know hoarding to kind of to me is is more related to the dopamine of acquiring something and then you just put it in your house and it's not, you know it's lost or buried versus like extreme collecting where everything is displayed like every you know, like it's all you're building it's all experienceable but it's everywhere, um, uh, versus to you know technology, where people are like sort of obsessively finding every app, everything, whatever.
Speaker 2:It's sort of like if you I put this all in movies Like what's the name of the guy, like there's a name for the person that makes all this crazy intricate technology, to just like open a can.
Speaker 1:The Rube Goldberg, yeah the Rube Goldberg, yeah the Rube Goldberg.
Speaker 2:And like in Back to the Future. You know all of the stuff that this guy created to just like put dog food in a can, so like.
Speaker 2:We create apps and we use AI and I have this thing to program this and my coffee starts brewing, and then this happens like I want as little input into things as possible and I just want everything sort of served up. That's an extreme that I don't enjoy. But then I also don't want you know all this manual, all this manual stuff that I'm like constantly having to give input.
Speaker 3:There's some things that are just annoying yeah.
Speaker 2:And trying to find that middle ground, where sometimes it goes a little bit shades, a little bit to one side or the other, but trying to find some balance and and all of that stuff do you?
Speaker 3:there's I. I don't want us to go too deep because we got to wrap pretty soon, but I had this thought the other day and I haven't really explored it much deeper, but I remember when the iphone first came out, or when I first got a hold of one in 70 years, probably 2009, 2010 and I had this feeling because there was at that time, it seemed like there was this prevailing idea that technology was going to take everything over, and by that I mean, like like name, all these physical activities yeah, it was just going to colonize your physical analog life.
Speaker 3:And I had this thought like, oh man, and I carried this probably for about five years, probably until about 2015. Yeah, but I used to constantly have this thought that it really doesn't do anything in the real world. Like you know, you spend all this time building social media. I'm like it really isn't like moving any needle in the real world.
Speaker 3:Like you know, you spend all this time building social media, I'm like it really isn't like moving any needle in the real world, yeah, but and obviously that's not completely true like there have been revolutions that have been, you know, oh, started on facebook, right, um, so it's not completely true, but I was like I just had this like like this feeling in the back, like this feeling in the back, like this gut feeling that, oh, it's really important, but it doesn't really like it's not real, right, and somewhere that went away and I like it just disappeared.
Speaker 2:That feeling for you disappeared that feeling disappeared.
Speaker 3:But I feel like I think that feeling for me at the time was probably influenced by some cultural things, but at some point it seemed like like there was this recognition that like we need to get over this hurdle. That these things are like it's almost the idea if I had to quantify it in like a sentence would be creating artificial problems so you can solve those artificial problems.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I kind of that was what I felt like it did yeah.
Speaker 3:Like, oh yeah, this, yeah, this is, you know, it's creating this. Like what's a good example.
Speaker 3:There was an iphone app and it was like the swiss army app and it was like 14 apps in one yeah and it had all these things that it did and I'm like this is useless right, like at the end of the day, like this is just like a money grab like2 and we're going to get some money and we built this app and it has like a flashlight and a compass and a bunch of bullshit. That is completely useless really.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But it serves this idea that, oh, look at all this utility, I need to have this on my phone. Yep, I might need that. Yeah, I might need that. And so I had this idea and then it seems like that disappeared. And so I had this idea and then it seems like that disappeared and I'm now that I look back on it, I'm wondering, like was that? How intentional was that? Like, how much was that? Like we have a marketing problem. People don't think that this is necessary or that it this isn't like. Like you had all of these people that were holdouts to social media and they were like you don't need this. This doesn't actually like influence the real world. I'm just going to focus on my business. And then you had this kind of sea change around 2015, 2016,.
Speaker 3:where everybody was like, suddenly, no, I have to have social media, and now that we're fucking 15 years out you start looking and you're like, man, if you would have just held tight like those people I, they were right. I think a lot of them were probably right. There's some businesses, like you know, being an influencer. Obviously that was an industry that created itself. It didn't exist. I mean, it did like you know you could have celebrities and all that kind of stuff, yeah, but like it, it kind of created itself out of the thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But a lot of those people who were like I don't fucking need this, this is just like they were kind of right. They were kind of like just a little early on, and now everybody's starting to or not everybody, but there are larger groups of people that are starting to be like you know, you don't need this isn't the real world. You know what? You don't need Instagram, and they were saying that in 2010. And then somehow the conversation got changed and it got broadly accepted Like no, you need to have this thing, right. And really I think, like there are some problems that technology like online banking is awesome, like not having to go to the bank Fucking great problem to solve.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like that's cool. That's a great thing that technology did um. You know what ebooks are cool, like there's.
Speaker 3:There's plenty of like streaming is cool, like just being able to watch stuff yeah ever, and I I understand we can argue about like, oh well, you know, going to see movies and owning the media and it's like there's something really cool about just like. I'm gonna pull this up and stream it, yep, um, so there are cool things that you know have influenced, but a lot of this stuff it kind of feels like it is just this illusion of like you need this absolutely and that at some point somebody recognized oh man, this narrative is going the wrong way.
Speaker 3:We need to change. And you know, I'm not saying there's one person that did it. It could literally just be like the industry as a whole. It was like we have this misconception that this isn't necessary. We need to make sure that people know that this is necessary.
Speaker 2:So there's a YouTube account and I watched the video with Aaron. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And we don't need to go too far down this. We can save it for another time. But, professor, I don't know if you've seen this guy's channel, professor Zhang Zhang. I don't know if you've seen this guy's channel, professor Zhang. So he has a video called Consumerism is the Perfection of Slavery. He talks about how, after World War II, we were a worker-centric society. Everything revolved around the worker unions, all this stuff. And then in the 80s quote unquote they decided to shift everything to being a consumer-centric society, and I feel like that has shades of what you're talking about, which is how do we— You're creating artificial demand.
Speaker 2:Right, how do we manufacture problems that can be solved with products that people will feel that they absolutely have to consume? It's beauty, and I think I can own something that this person—there could be an argument like yep, we thought of that too and we influenced you to feel that way in order to—I feel like this narrative, I tell myself, is well, you're an exception to the normal forces of driving consumerism because you're not acquiring it, because you have some problem to solve, although you could argue just like an emotional problem exists where I don't own enough beautiful objects and I need to have more of them.
Speaker 2:But that you know, and that's where in pre-show I had the little conspiracy theory where you're like, hey, they took Looney Tunes off of. Hbo Max.
Speaker 2:So you know it's not there and I said well, what if they are doing that on purpose to create a problem and all these influencers talk about how this stuff isn't available on streaming? You need to own your media, driving up the investment in physical media, even if it's buying used physical media, because the Hollywood system and the studios and the corporations that own them want to go back to the glory days of DVD sales, when billions of dollars were coming in.
Speaker 3:I'm like I just don't think that these people are one long-term focused enough to do anything. That's that Like it's just. I think the world is. It's completely made up of just a ton of non-correlated complex systems, and all we do as humans is we try to make correlations out of these things that aren't correlated, and it's like the biggest thing we try to do, and I do think there's planning that happens sometimes. I don't really feel like that's my biggest thing. You know we talked about, like, how people have this defeatist attitude about certain things. Like well, there's this. You know these people that are manipulating everything I do and say, and it's like part of that comes down to you and it's like you know you vote with your dollar you hear that?
Speaker 2:yeah, we talked about that you vote with your dollar.
Speaker 3:You vote with your attention. It's like, well, you're complaining about how tiktok is like ruining people's like your life, or twitter is like ruining your life or social media, but you're on your phone all the time like that's your choice yeah that's up to you and you're like, oh well, if I get off of it for work or for this I can't it's like that is your choice.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I'm sorry, like and I I get it like the technology is is meant to exploit people and meant to hurt you, and like are designed to capture the most attention so you can get shareholder returns, and like I'm not going to sit here and argue that that's not, that that's a good thing. Yeah, but it's your decision to put your time and energy and attention there and, at the end of the day, like you've got to accept that responsibility or not. But if you don't, like it's not, you're not going to change anything because you're not. You're not thinking on the if there is a difference between us and they, or like the people that you know you would cabal theory.
Speaker 3:And I don't. I don't I typically don't believe in that. I think it's just like a lot of complex systems and there's just complexity, and I don't think there's ever like you. You do get like your edward bernays types or whatever, who are like I'm going to make a decision that's going to profoundly influence something. It'll change this output, and I think that's the key and, as a consumer, you can have that same mindset. If I don't buy this shit, they'll stop making this shit. If there's no market for something, there's not going to be a market for it. You see all these new sodas? Because people are like, oh, a soda is actually full of shit. There's no market for something, there's not going to be a market for it. Yeah, like you see it, all these like new sodas because people are like, oh, soda is actually full of shit yeah, like traditional so traditional
Speaker 3:soda and so they're like oh well, we need, like newer sodas that's not as full of shit. Why?
Speaker 2:because nobody was buying the old and and if we make the market responds, and if we make that soda full of all the new good shit, we can charge two dollars a can yeah this soda is freaking expensive yep, yeah, like the poppies, sorry yeah and they're delicious. Yeah, and I love them, but I'm not spending two bucks a piece on them.
Speaker 3:And that's kind of how—and our system is slow and it's not very effective. But you know what? That's good and bad. Yeah. And, yeah, we talked about earlier. Do they start making new products? Because all of these vintage products are— For us? We like to think, though, it's because of the quality, but a lot of times it's just for the clout or the social currency that comes from it so, and there's certainly an element of that in all of it and I post what I'm doing on social media.
Speaker 2:This is the record I'm listening to. This is the laser disc player I got. Here's my weekend haul and that's the the yucky consumerism part that gets a hold of me. It's not you know, it know it's buying it. You know this is like oh, I covet this beautiful object. Well then, just keep it to yourself. Well, some of them I got to share. First thing I want to do on this podcast tell everybody the Leica story you know, because Leica has cachet.
Speaker 2:What does that mean about me? You know all this stuff. So that's the that sort of nasty dark side of consumerism In me telling my story of thinking that I'm buying it to covet the beauty. There is a dark side of it which is what it signals the story I get to tell. I know when I post this to Instagram people are going to be like you.
Speaker 3:Found a Leica Amazing Grail All this amazing.
Speaker 2:You know, like grail, you know all this stuff. Um, this is related, but I kept thinking. While you're talking about, like you know, phones and all that stuff, christopher nolan releases a new movie. What's the first thing everybody wants to talk about when, uh, they have him on the talk show or doing the thing so you don't use a cell phone. Is that real?
Speaker 1:he doesn't, yeah and that's like one of the does he?
Speaker 3:just not have a cell phone at all. No, no cell. I mean, if he does, it's a cell phone. Is that real? He doesn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, does he just not have a cell phone at all? No cell, I mean. If he does, it's a flip phone.
Speaker 3:So Werner Herzog doesn't have a cell phone either. I don't think he even has a flip phone. I think no one's full landline. That would be the way to go. If I could get away with that, I know right there is something about that. There's no doubt. No one buys stuff. I'm sure he has. Yeah, you know he has devices. I just I do think it's the responsibility of the artist, like anybody listening to the show calls themselves like and it's like.
Speaker 3:That is so gross. If you call yourself an artist, it's like, are you really an artist or are you just trying to? You're trying to benefit off of the cultural cachet of it. But if, like, if that's what you strive to be or if, like, you have some inclination that that's kind of what you're going for, it's your job to to kind of insulate yourself from, like you. You shouldn't be getting caught up in cultural waves and see, then there's a side of me that even argues against that. Like you know, a lot of art is influenced by the moment and by the zeitgeist.
Speaker 3:So you know I don't take this as a declarative statement, but it's just my gut tells me like there is some insulation that needs to happen, and I'm not a huge nolan fan but I respect that a lot yeah and herzog doesn't have a phone either for the same reason he was.
Speaker 2:Don't worry, he has his phone. Yeah, not a, he's not texting.
Speaker 3:I mean yeah, and I think there's social. There's something to that and I mean it's not like you're better if you don't have a phone, or if you you know, oh, I don't use social media. And you're starting to see people start to use it that way, like, oh, I don't use social media I don't, it's like in this you're just falling into the same trap, like that's you're wanting to.
Speaker 2:You're signaling all you're hijacking this thing that's happening because you see the opportunity, even if it's not the sole reason, but you see an opportunity to signal yeah to culture.
Speaker 3:Is it probably better that you're not? Yeah, potentially, that you're not using it. Maybe you're getting a little bit of benefit, but if you're not using it, in order to do this kind of cringe thing like that's?
Speaker 2:you know, and again I think there are cringe elements of everything we do Me telling the story of the Leica is fun, elements of everything we do me telling the story of the leica is fun, it is exciting. People like the thing you are interested in the camera and whether it works or whatever. But then there is an undercurrent of I know it's interesting to tell this story and there may be, there may be meaning that people have about something like this that they ascribe to me and what it means to me, and it has been working on it since the moment this picture was in the estate sale listing, consciously and subconsciously, things are happening that are processing all the good stuff you can do with it and the cringe stuff that you can do with it.
Speaker 3:Well, you're building a narrative around it, right? You're building like, oh man, this is going to make me this.
Speaker 2:What value does this have? In numerous ways value does this use it for this?
Speaker 3:ways and like secretly also, you're like I'm gonna get a little dopamine hit off of this hit yep um, but then you're like I can mine it for dopamine in this way, like I think kind of that's what it comes down to, yeah it's like mining it for dopamine in different ways, right, and who's to even say that that's a bad thing? I just think it's like calm down maybe. Yeah, like certain things need to, just like they need the air to process.
Speaker 2:Right, and you know with someone like me who is think it make it think it feel it, make it, send it.
Speaker 2:You just have to be very careful that the cringe stuff doesn't take over and you just are in public places on the internet, which I am prone to do there's. You know we've talked about this before, not going to spend a bunch of time on it, but you know the desire for attention that you know, and what's the root cause of that insecurity. You know a desire for attention, you know, and what's the root cause of that Insecurity. You know you weren't popular in high school. You know you want people to think you're cool. You know all this stuff and then you know some good, wholesome things like I might take a cool photo with this that.
Speaker 2:I get to keep and put on my wall, and it's not for anybody else, it's just for me and I'm not going to signal with it. It's just for me, just for me and I'm not going to signal with it. I'm not going to share it, you know whatever. So it goes both ways. I just personally have to be careful that I don't let it take all the cringe stuff take over.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean we all do, and I mean that's just part of that insulation. I think it's tough if you're not actively seeking out, actively seeking out. It's just so easy to just be completely consumed in these like thought bubbles, culture bubbles and like idea bubbles.
Speaker 3:It's like guys bubbles, I guess in 2025 and not even realize that you're in them. Yeah, and that's kind of. You know, if you're going to make art, that's interesting. I think it has to come from you. Yeah, like, start from you, and to do that, you have to have a you there.
Speaker 3:That's not just some manufactured you to like. It has to be the real, like non-perfect version of you, not the non-perfect in the way of like. Oh well, I watched this youtube video about like, how you. You can't beat yourself up, but like. I'm talking about like, the real, like. How do you see the world? Like, right, throw your connection to the outside out for a month and write down all of your feelings and what does that give you? Yep, that's the real you. Yeah, not the like. Oh well, this person's not going to agree with this statement or with this. You know, this isn't going to look good, or this is an ugly photo, or this is this color is not attractive, like, don't take all that aside. What is your opinion on it? And then that's what people you know.
Speaker 2:Well, it goes back to the moment where I looked at that painting. I really respect Mark and I really like Mark and there was a flash of a thought when I declared that I liked that painting and I was going to buy it, a warm but critical reaction to the painting. Where my brain goes in an instant goes well, you really want Mark to like you and respect your taste.
Speaker 3:So I need to say that this is like a—.
Speaker 2:Maybe you should not buy it, yeah, but my instant reaction was everything that I talked about earlier. I know that the homeowner did that painting and there is something that I love about them trying to be a painter because I've tried to be a screenwriter or a writer or a YouTuber or whatever and I am probably like her, like kind of good, kind of okay, kind of okay, and I want to give love to the other. Kind of okay people trying to pursue work that aren't doing things at a level of a Picasso or a Spielberg or whatever, and I want to give them a warm hug and go I see what you're doing here and what you want. You didn't get there. I'm probably never going to get there. Yeah, I'm probably never gonna get there yeah but I love it's beautiful.
Speaker 2:I love what it means that you spent your life trying to figure it out and I think that's it.
Speaker 3:It's just like thoughtful exploration that leads to a like a perspective of things. Yeah, and then you're constantly testing that too, right?
Speaker 1:and it had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer.
