58. The Work You Keep Deferring

We establish guardrails for the podcast after recognizing we've been on autopilot for months, using this as a state of the union where we commit to actual accountability instead of vague intentions. Matthew discusses diversifying revenue streams to reduce dependence on sponsorships that feel like selling rather than curating, while trying to build financial stability that allows space for reading and creative work. Alex confronts how illness disrupted his morning writing routine and the challenge of getting back to consistent discipline when life knocks you off schedule. Both of us recognize a pattern: the foundational work that makes everything else possible—exercise, reading, morning creative time—keeps getting deferred for reasons that sound legitimate but might just be avoidance.

The conversation shifts when we randomly select a notecard reading "Arrogance is a dangerous cliff," leading into an exploration of ego, narcissism, and self-awareness. We examine the difference between confidence and arrogance, how arrogance removes the checks and balances that keep work honest, and whether constant introspection is genuine growth or just another performance. Matthew wrestles with the spectrum of narcissistic tendencies and how self-awareness might be a tool for getting what you want rather than actual change. We discuss how success can breed lenience with craft, how you can get arrogant even about a podcast, and why humility before process matters more than chasing outcomes.

The dangerous cliff is isolation—not just interpersonal, but creative. When you skip the prep work, ignore the disciplines that made early efforts good, or believe you've mastered the process, the fall happens slowly until you're alone with work that's lost its foundation. We land on the necessity of checks and balances: accountability structures, state-of-the-union conversations, and honest assessment of whether we're actually doing the work or just performing the idea of doing it. -Ai

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.

Links To Everything:

Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT

Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT

Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT

Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT

Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG

Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG

Chapters

• 0:00 Framing The Guardrails
• 1:06 Why The Show Needs Structure
• 4:23 Autopilot, Energy Dips, And Intent
• 8:35 State Of The Union Setup
• 9:07 Rethinking Work, Money, And Creative Identity
• 12:30 Building Stable Revenue To Protect Creativity
• 18:20 Routine, Exercise, And Momentum
• 22:05 Public Accountability As A Tool
• 27:36 Getting Back To Focused Episodes
• 31:14 Morning Writing, And Time
• 36:00 Root Causes And The Creative Center
• 40:32 Defining A Finish Line For The Script
• 45:20 The Reality Of Routines While Sick
• 52:00 Full-Time Dreams vs Present Constraints
• 56:20 Mixing Mediums And Creative Variety
• 1:01:36 Using The Podcast For Accountability
• 1:07:24 Picking A Card: Arrogance As Cliff

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:01

It had been a golden afternoon. And I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with someone's for context, I think this is gonna be like a guardrails episode.

SPEAKER_04: 0:17

Yeah. I also have a little bit of a cough. It's hasn't been bad, but Alex almost died last week. If I if I turn away, that'll be that'll be why. Um hopefully Alfana clears it up. I think now that I'm thinking we talked for two hours, I think. Barely coughed, yeah. Um so I think we want to put up some guardrails um for the show going forward, which is always difficult because you know we it's striking a fine balance between the the form and the medium and also the intention. Because you know, the the intention is like, oh well, we don't want to do this because that just feels like more work, or that feels like it's not it's adding some kind of artificial uh expectation or artificial, you know, veneer to the the thing. Um so we don't want to do that, but then at the same time, you know, we do I think we can both recognize the times when oh, you know, we're kind of veering into this direction too heavily or veering into this direction too heavily. So this will be us trying to figure out um what the show's gonna look like for the next couple of months, I guess. Um I think we're trying to yeah, I mean, I just you know less of just a recurrent therapy session and keeping that energy and inspiration still. I don't know. What's your take on it? Put it in your words.

SPEAKER_00: 1:49

Yeah, for me it's um I from my point of view and my experience of what I bring to the table literally, uh, it's um sometimes just not putting any work into thinking more deeply uh about ideas and topics that are interesting. Again, without them being spoon fed to me. Oh, I was reading this book and this thing is interesting and I want to talk to Alex about it, or I sought out this book based on your recommendation or a video I watched because it has to do with art and creativity and life and all of that stuff, and so I want to I I I want to uh try a little harder at seeking out interesting ideas that are worth talking about for 45 minutes to an hour. Um and that might mean like literally looking for them, yeah. Or creating opportunities for them to uh come up, whether it's going to the movies, going to an art museum, reading a book, you know, all of that. I don't know that I've been thinking sometimes when I do those things. Is there anything from this experience that would relate to what it feels like we talk about on the show?

SPEAKER_04: 3:17

We've almost been on autopilot for a couple of months. Yeah. And I don't know if that's been noticed. I mean, we still get like nice comments and things like that.

SPEAKER_00: 3:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 3:25

Um, I mean, I'm sure it's been noticed a little, it's definitely been noticed in I think we're not as like pumped about it all the time. Like we'll put on an episode, we're not as pumped about it, it's just kind of like going through the motions, which like that's gonna happen. We've been doing this for two years, right? And you know, I don't think we have any intentions of stopping. Um so that's gonna happen. That's just how life is. You go through periods of greater enthusiasm and lesser enthusiasm. But yeah, I kind of want to make it to where I don't want to say we're using this time, use this time more productively. Yeah. Because that's bringing in this metaphor of like a productivity curve. And I don't want, I don't want to think that like I don't think of that in this way, but just you know, using this to be a little more to explore a little bit more, I think. Um so I have it written on here, State of the Union. Do we want to do a quick State of the Union and then maybe pick a potential topic? Or what do you Yeah? Let's start with State of the Union. Okay, so what does State of the Union look like? Why don't you just do five minutes on what's going on?

SPEAKER_00: 4:36

Or yeah, and into and sort of like give me a little container. Is it like what's just going on with me and my life? Is it what's sort of going on in the life of the show? What's going on in the world?

SPEAKER_04: 4:48

Maybe it's maybe it's like what's going on in your life, what's going on in relation to the to the show a little bit. Yeah. And then maybe we leave with some kind of concrete, like, I want to do X. Yeah. Um, you know, I don't want to like say goal setting, but like a bit of a I want to do this. You know, just introducing some like accountability into our yeah, just some kind of actionable thing.

SPEAKER_00: 5:22

Yeah. Uh okay, well, I'll talk about my State of the Union. And this isn't like the therapy thing, like what's my emotional situation, but just uh I mean I'll touch on that maybe, but uh so you know, obviously we talked a lot about over the last year or so, two years, a little bit of upheaval in my life and sort of moving away from just cranking out videos about Final Cut Pro on my YouTube channel to getting into photography and starting a channel there. Um different developing different streams of revenue to try to figure out like what's the the best way to be more of a curator um than a promoter of things, less less of an influencer/slash salesman and more of like someone that just helps people discover new interesting things, and there's a little bit of a financial kickback with that. So I'm just in a state right now where I'm figuring out uh a little bit more experimentation with stable revenue streams that help me sleep at night, um, where I'm not uh on one extreme and to me the bad extreme, cranking out videos on my Final Cut Pro channel about products and services that I know if I talk about them, I'll just make money off of talking about them because I want to make money. But I don't really like love the thing or I don't really care deeply about it, but I just want to make money from it. Um so I have spent some time developing um a couple other channels that just help me creatively have a different outlet than the Final Cut channel. And uh I've also immersed myself more in seeking out like vintage stuff that I can either sell on e-commerce platforms or in my friend Josh's shop to develop those revenue streams. Um and trying to figure out how to like get that steady flow of revenue that creates a foundation that gives me more leeway to go back to reading in the mornings and exercising and making videos that are less about commerce and more about creativity and things that I'm interested in. Um so I feel like I'm starting to kind of hit a stride with all that, and things are better, less um, less uh less scary with not making enough money. So that's kind of my state of the union. So I think part of just to wrap up, part of what you were talking about with the phoning, did you say phoning it in? Uh, that energy. I mean, I don't know if that's yeah, I guess I can't remember if you said that. And I don't think that we were necessarily phoning it in, but maybe just what it was.

SPEAKER_04: 8:33

Yeah, same. I mean, same, same, same idea.

SPEAKER_00: 8:36

I think what I had been doing before that, when we had some episodes that I was really excited about, um, and some topics that we discussed that were really exciting for me, all of that stuff that I was doing was such a priority that I was not allocating any brain, any bandwidth toward thinking about my experiences in the world or seeking out material, written video, whatever, film, art that gave me questions or ideas that I wanted to discuss on this. So things sort of got generalized, or you know, you and I having conversations that kind of went from topic to topic without just sort of stream of consciousness, we'll see where this goes. Um, so I hope that if my State of the Union continues to improve, that things will go back to that. Yeah. I'll be able to allocate bandwidth to cultivating better ideas and questions and topics for this.

SPEAKER_04: 9:36

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know if if we've ever really done it that way, but I would I think I'd like to just uh just to see how it how it, you know. At this point, you know, we've done fifty some odd episodes. Yeah. It's like, okay, let's just see what it looks like to do 10 where we're like very focused.

SPEAKER_00: 9:58

And well, and I was just writing stuff down a lot more. Yeah. I'd be reading a book or watching videos, and I would I would just like, oh, that's interesting. I like that idea, you know. And then we would in our pre-show be able to kind of go through that stuff and go, oh, that's interesting. And then we would launch into a show, you know. I I haven't written anything down that I'd like to talk about in quite a while.

SPEAKER_04: 10:18

I think we've written even like there's this isn't an agenda, by the way. There's two things on here.

SPEAKER_00: 10:22

Yeah, two things.

SPEAKER_04: 10:23

Um and uh one of them has been covered probably a hundred thousand times.

SPEAKER_00: 10:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 10:30

But yeah, I think just bringing a little more form to it, and I think that'll help us too, because I I, you know, we'll sit here and go through three, four hours, and that's one thing we were talking about right before we went live is yeah, I like the idea of just being able to get this done in an hour.

SPEAKER_00: 10:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 10:47

Um, just be like, hey, we're gonna sit down and do this, and it's not gonna be a big thing today. Yeah. But then it can be a big thing if you want it to.

SPEAKER_00: 10:57

I think too, part of me not writing stuff down or like harvesting my experiences in life for ideas for the show is just this feeling of like, all right, I have to pull back from exercise and reading in the morning and all this because I'm in a state of a financial state that, you know, has me has me, you know, sort of elevated concern or sort of I need to uh circle the wagons and figure out a a new strategy or plan of attack to get things back to where I feel good about them again. Um and sort of this idea like, well, once I achieve these milestones, then I'll be allowed to allocate bandwidth and time to these other things. And and I think that that's potentially a mistake because you're you'll probably just get in a cycle where you're moving the goalpost. Okay, well, okay, yeah, once I I know I said that once I had this, then I'd be, but now I really feel like I need to have this, and then I can. Yeah. And that especially pertains for me personally to like exercise, you know, like I'm just gonna keep moving the goalpost because I don't want to do it.

SPEAKER_04: 12:08

Well, it's like it's funny too, how how much like especially exercise and I mean in your case, reading in the mornings, yeah. How much that can act as a catalyst for everything else.

SPEAKER_00: 12:18

And you were saying that earlier.

SPEAKER_04: 12:19

Like you're you know, yeah, you're like, once I get time for that, then you know, once I get these other things going, then I'll go back and I'll be able to do that. But it's like maybe that's the thing to get these other things going. That's exactly right. At least that's my experience with a lot of this stuff, is no especially exercise. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 12:38

No, and I think I think that's a hundred percent um the thing. You yeah, I I am I am trying to align things that could be more quickly aligned if I just gave into uh the discipline and the stuff that I really want to do that I'm excited about creatively, yeah, instead of like the work and hard labor and nuts and bolts stuff that I feel like I've got to get through all that. And then once I do, I'm allowed to do the fun work.

SPEAKER_03: 13:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 13:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 13:17

So if you had to set like a goal or two off of that, would it just be kind of getting back to some of those discipline?

SPEAKER_00: 13:23

Even related things. Yeah, it would even be something as simple as, well, why don't you for a month just try putting exercise reading and all that back in and just see what happens? Yeah. And and and you know, I I talked to you about articles I want to write or a creative video idea I have. Like, what if you just put that back into the mix and then just see what happens? Yeah. Both to your emotional state, your emotional well-being, but then also to results. Like what impact does it have on results? And maybe it would need to be more than a month, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 13:55

Um well, we can come back in a month, and yeah. I mean, that's another thing I kind of want to use this for more as just this came with our last episode. I was discussing some personal work and you kind of you just took a beat and you're like wouldn't discuss like you're you don't want to discuss that stuff on air because of XYZ, or you feel like it creates an expectation. You were kind of like, wouldn't that isn't that not the worst thing? Yeah. And thinking about that, I'm like, you know, you're kind of right. Like, yeah. You've you you you make a good point. Like it it wouldn't be the worst thing to just talk. I mean, you know, for the 25 people that watch this shit, no, just kidding. It's a little bit more than that, but it's not, you know, it's not like a crazy amount of people, but I think that kind of accountability actually could be productive. Yes. And I I want to start using that a little more. Um, accountability and also just um expectation or uh not expectation necessarily, but um I guess real-time feedback, maybe. Yeah. I want to take advantage of that more. Because I do feel like, you know, y you get s caught in an echo chamber of your immediate peers and you kind of lose that sense of progress. And I don't mean that since again, I want to be very clear. I'm not talking about progress in the source of like gotta be better, gotta like this very linear curve of an of the I this idea of progress or this, you know. Um but progress in the sense of just you know uh uh setting up a foundation just for the even if just for the purpose of like building just making the thing.

SPEAKER_00: 15:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 16:00

Um and yeah, I wanna use the so you know I want to talk about I I guess getting into my state of the union, it's like I want to talk about some of the more intricate things, set more realistic or you know, tangible timelines on certain things and yeah, hold I mean, hold ourselves accountable because I it's it's a lot harder to yeah, be like, I'm gonna do this, and then you get on and you're like, Well, I haven't done any of that in a month. And you've you know, having to take that public accountability, I think, is something that could be valuable. And it's like we do this show every week, might as well add that to the to the mix. I don't know what your thoughts are on that, but honestly, I feel like you gave me the inspiration behind that idea.

SPEAKER_00: 16:44

Yeah, I I mean part of why we do this podcast, and do you put the time into editing it? And I, you know, and I'm I'm all over the place with putting clips up, but I never not put three clips up before every episode, you know, all that stuff. It's there is You nailed it this week. Yeah, the clips clips up on it. Yeah, uh, I think I have all but one. Yeah. Yeah. I was trying to be good. Yeah, it was great. So just this thing existing and you do it twice, and now all of a sudden, like, there's this it it makes you know, again, I know I've backpedaled on like every Tuesday, Thursday, Tuesday putting a new clip up, but I will never not put three clips up, even if it's right before we put the next episode up. It is I'm not gonna let you down, and I'm not gonna let sort of like the channel down by not doing that. Um so with you know, me having my YouTube channels, part of making them is that now I have this thing that I'm accountable to in and people, you know, there's there's an audience growing there, there's people who comment on every video, even on my newer channels. Um but at the same time, like my the the photography work channel with sort of like the video clips and and photos of the stuff I do, I haven't posted a video there in like four months and it just gnaws at me.

SPEAKER_03: 18:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 18:17

And so um, you know, I have to be careful that I don't spawn all these public projects that then collapse in on themselves already. Right. And then it makes me go, well, I can't exercise and I can't read in the morning because you are behind on this obligation you have.

SPEAKER_04: 18:37

Is that about character you build a character and you miss out on life, yeah. But yeah, I mean, I I want to use this platform more effectively for that of just guiding my personal sense of expectation, I think. And yeah, I mean, force like I need some accountability on projects and everything, and I think we we could both probably benefit from that. Seems like we've just kind of left it out there. But it is funny how much it works, like even if it's kind of subconscious, yeah. It's like like today, even it's it's a Sunday. You know, we tried to record a couple times, and there were just like little life happens and life comes up, and we're like, okay. And there was never like a are we not gonna get this in? It was just like when is it? When are we gonna fit it in?

SPEAKER_00: 19:27

And how do I give you enough space to to edit it, you know?

SPEAKER_04: 19:30

Because we don't have one in the hopper, I don't think, right? Yeah. No. Which is kind of nice too. It's yeah, fresh. Yeah. Which I I kind of like about this too, because it is just okay, fresh slate. Yeah. Which falls a good time for it. Knock the leaves down and we'll see.

SPEAKER_00: 19:46

But even with like back to the accountability thing, not to like turn it into a bigger beat, but you know, we haven't done our film photo Friday walks in a f a long time. Whole summer, pretty much. We could say you and I haven't even jumped in a vehicle and gone like some of those small town outings we would do early in the morning and just go out and take photos. We haven't done any of that. I haven't gone out to do one of my photography channel videos, which was always something that I love doing. Um, haven't done that in a long time. Yeah. Um, so yeah, uh the sort of uh uh a backtrack or a backslide on some of that stuff that you know I get like you got this going on, personal life stuff, travel with you know Audrey over the summer to this and that, and it's like, but then I'm also bummed. I'm like, man, we haven't yeah. So it to wrap it up, it it dawned on me because you and I and Audrey and my kids were in Jean Leahy Mall, where we'd usually do our little film photo Friday thing, and I'm looking at all the trees and I'm like, these trees got big. These are big, yeah, these are these are large, they're huge, yeah. And I'm like, has it really been that long? Two days a week there, almost guaranteed. Yeah, and so like the fact that I hadn't been down there for that long to that specific spot and walking along the sidewalks that we were walking, that perspective, it was I'm like it just so completely shocked me that that much change had occurred in what feels like two months.

SPEAKER_04: 21:18

Yeah, yeah, but it's not, yeah. So that's wild. Yeah, I mean, I um I mean, just I was hanging out and yeah, I kind of recontextualized some things about the show and everything. I think it I think it's probably needed to happen. Yeah. Um so I mean, moving on really quick just to kind of city the union for myself, that's the that's the whole idea is to build more accountability into this. Um the projects I'm working on and like things like that, being a little less concerned to talk about them, but I do kind of want you to make like check that I'm not well, I mean, one check in like you know, the guilt of not doing the thing that you talked about, yeah, is part of the uncomfortable benefit. Yeah. So I mean, yeah, like I'll check in with you on the in a have you been reading? Have you been and I mean, yeah, it you know, I I think having that, like I don't want to let this person down, or I don't want to let this group of people down. Yeah, it's just a powerful thing. And um, I think I need more of that in my life. Um because I mean, yeah, like I mean recently I've been I've been sick for the last couple of weeks, so it's just been I mean, being sick is the worst because it does mess everything up. Um like I haven't been exercising, obviously, because I can't really breathe. Yeah, can't exercise when I'm like dying.

SPEAKER_00: 22:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 22:58

Um so I mean obviously I want to get that back into my routine as soon as possible. Um and I mean reading, yeah, just finishing more stuff. Um part of me is like, oh man, like should I how should I track these? Or I have a book and I just write everything down, and I don't necessarily want to be like publicly talking about like, oh, I'm reading this book and then I finish this book. Well, I think that might be helpful. I think it might be more hurtful because then you're just you're editing your selections of books you're reading or whatever based on the expectation that is set from the public. So I think that stuff is kind of I'll keep that private. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean, yeah, I've been reading pretty consistently. Um I want to get back exercising. Um writing was going super well, and then I mean, just getting routine messed up, and I'll I'll be up all night coughing, and then by the time you know you roll out of bed, and I I kind of lost that time that I'd set aside for myself in the morning where I was just coming in here and writing for an hour or two, to where now it's like you immediately are opening the phone and you're like in work, and yeah, you have to be in work mode. Yep. And then you know it's really hard to write after lunch or something like that, just because you're not yeah, you're in a different state. Yeah, no, completely just yeah, you're like, okay. Um so I mean that definitely hasn't been going as well as as it was, and I want to get back to that. Um, because I I really have been focusing on kind of one story and trying to finish one story that I've been working on for a couple of years now, and I'm just like, okay, let's get this done. The end. More idea, yeah, more ideas are coming up, and I'm just like, okay, let's just work through this and get it, get a product, and I'll share that with you eventually and uh get get thoughts. But um, you know, trying to learn that thing of oh, like I mean, there's still like things that need to be written, and I'm like editing stupid stuff. It's like this can wait. Yeah like you just gotta get the like the core points in here. Um but yeah, I mean that's that's where I am, so the union wise is like I need to kind of get back into the routine that I had. And I can feel it, like you're just more upset and you're just like, you just don't feel the same.

SPEAKER_00: 25:30

I'm what do you think you know for me for me I look at financial insecurity as the source of me I think getting off of like whatever you would whatever you would call a sort of a center of a center state of consumption and creation of creativity of books, movies, uh videos, nonfiction, fiction, writing my own stuff, articles, uh videos that are less sort of function and more interesting or creative or whatever. Like I feel like I'm not allowed to do that stuff because I'm not making enough money. And so it's like this this root cause of the problem, and I am very pragmatic in that regard. You know, I work for tech support for Apple and what help people troubleshoot their computers, I still do to this day, like we gotta get to the root cause. What's the problem? And so like I just like have my the little center of the universe of what I do on a daily basis is whatever you know, whatever's gonna get you out of that state. Do you have something or things that you feel like you can attribute to uh to the root cause of not doing what you think you should be doing or what you would prefer to be doing?

SPEAKER_04: 27:01

Um, well, I mean so what I wanna what I really want to be doing is just finish this script and make it. Yeah. And just have it done, and you know, who cares if it's good or if like good or what I just want to have it done.

SPEAKER_02: 27:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 27:17

Like written and uh produced. Like do a figure out, find the whatever has the short potential, make that, to test some ideas that are in there, and then go out and try. Like, I just want to go through the process with it. Yeah, the traditional process of okay, have this thing, you know, does this have any potential, and then see it through to a point where I'm either like, okay, on to the next thing, or you know, this is done. Like, this is a film that is is made, and so that's I just I want to be done with this project and move on to the next one. And the whole idea behind this was like, you know, I I do want this to just kind of be the thing, like this is like all of the you know, all of the the culmination of all of these things, not trying to like experiment too much, but just find a very basic, like this is the foundational voice, and we'll build from here. Yeah, kind of what I talked about earlier. Yeah, just get it done, get it out, start building. You can build once you have concrete laid. And so that's that's where I am with this. Um, and I mean, yeah, I I've talked last week, like or a couple weeks ago, like I'm working on other things as well, just to keep things interesting, like I'll jump over here, I'll work on this, and like doing different like writing things and projects and stuff like that. But this is the core one where I'm just like, okay, let's just get this done. Okay. And um, I mean, no, it's just sometimes my time gets away from me, and it's my fault. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, you know, if it if I'm especially in the last couple weeks, like I write the best first thing in the morning. And so what I need to do is be on top of my life enough to where I'm going to bed at a decent time and I'm waking up and I've got the coffee, you know, ready to go, where all I have to do is hit the thing, and then I'm in here after 20 minutes of dicking around and I'm writing. Right. And I can do that for two hours and then I can shift into work mode. And that's where I need to be.

SPEAKER_00: 29:31

Um So like you might stay up till two o'clock in the morning one night and go to bed at 10 the other.

SPEAKER_04: 29:38

Well, and so that's what's happening right now, and especially with this cough. Like, I mean, not to like make it really, but for the last couple weeks, I mean that's been the problem is I'll go to bed at I can go to bed at 10. Yeah, and I'm still waking up at like nine. Oh wow, yeah. Because I'm just yeah, I'm recovering coughing all night. Yeah, or I'm just or yeah, you're not getting crushed, yeah. And I'm I'm and I'll still wake up and I'll feel like shit. Right. And it's like if you're waking up. Up and it's at that at that point, at least for me, like it's time to start like people are starting to reach out. Hey, what about this? What about this? What about this? For work. Yeah. Yeah. And it I if somebody's texting me, what about this? What about this? And it's eight o'clock, I don't care. Yeah. Like I'll I'll get to you in a minute. Yeah. But yeah, if it's like nine or nine thirty or whatever, it's okay. I need to I need to be dealing with this. Like that's where that obligation is. And it's okay. It's not like I don't I don't feel like I'm held down by that. And obviously there's lit time later in the day where I could probably like shift it or spend time. But it that's just hard, it doesn't work for me. Yeah. It doesn't work for me to write at like one o'clock in the afternoon. Um after work, you know, I'm sure that it could, but it's not my favorite thing to do. Uh usually like I like to, you know, hang out, do things with Audrey, things like that. Yeah. So I don't my favorite thing is not writing at that point.

SPEAKER_02: 31:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 31:01

So it it just works for me to get it done in the morning.

SPEAKER_02: 31:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_04: 31:05

And so I've yeah, I've lost that time. Um, and I just need to get that fight that back. And obviously, yeah, that's getting into sleep routine and things like that. Um, and yeah, just getting into like, okay, like 6 30, I'm up and I'm in here and I'm doing my thing.

SPEAKER_00: 31:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 31:24

Um, and then yeah, I mean, I need to make sure I'm making time to read, making time to exercise, just little things that give me the energy to sustain and do things over and over and over.

SPEAKER_01: 31:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 31:38

Um, and yeah, I mean that's that's what it comes down to, is it's just me. Yeah, like you said, if you're going to bed at one in the morning or something, right? You've jacked up that next day. And especially being sick, it's like I like if I'm fine and I go to bed at one, I'm like, okay, well, you messed yourself up, but you're gonna be up at seven tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00: 32:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 32:01

Or you're gonna be up at 6 30 tomorrow. Yeah, like you're just not gonna get that sleep. But when I'm sick, it's like, oh, I don't want this to get worse. I'm gonna 100%.

SPEAKER_00: 32:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 32:08

So yeah, I mean, I not to give that that this I'm not trying to use that as a scapegoat, like it's also just me.

SPEAKER_00: 32:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 32:14

It's not making the time for the thing, but I found that's what works best, and I'm not I haven't been taking advantage of that in the last couple of weeks. And yeah, I I just it messes everything up. Like everything is just lags a little bit when that's not dialed in.

SPEAKER_00: 32:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 32:29

Um, so I want to get that dialed in again, and then obviously the momentum of the project will carry um from there. Yeah. But I have to be giving it the right amount of time and effort and energy, or else it's not gonna do anything, it's just gonna sit there. Right. So um, yeah, I mean that's the biggest thing for me. It's just like, let's get that routine dial back in. Um, I am a very routine-oriented person. I some people can just like sit down and just jump into something when they're at any time. And I I've just found that that's tough for me to do.

SPEAKER_00: 33:04

So how do you think it would be if you were doing it full time?

SPEAKER_04: 33:09

If you didn't have your job and see, part of me is like that that would be great, you know, but then there's also like that's not realistic right now, yeah, for me. Like what is realistic though is doing it the way that I I can I can actually make it work. Um and I mean I I I've like I've been enjoying work, like we've had some fun projects, and there's been some interesting stuff that I've gotten to do, and you know, I've gotten more leeway over the like the past couple of years and things like that. So I don't know if yeah, I mean I I I obviously I'm like, man, I would love to just do this full time.

SPEAKER_00: 33:53

Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 33:54

But part of me also kind of thinks, like, if you can't get this done and made, you don't deserve to do this full time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like get this done and get this made. And you know, if it if you do it the right way and you know, the stars align and you are lucky, then maybe you do get that gift of being able to do something like this more full time.

SPEAKER_00: 34:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 34:17

Um, and maybe not, but then at least I know I can do it this way too. Yeah. And so it's kind of just like I've got to work with what I have, what's in front of me. And um it's not useful for me to have that, like, if I could do this, then attitude. I think it's just more this is what I this is what I have.

SPEAKER_00: 34:36

And yeah, and I was let's make work. I was mostly curious, sort of like what do you think your day would look like if you were a full-time writer?

SPEAKER_04: 34:44

Oh, I'd wake up in the morning. I'd still like to wake up in the morning. Yeah, and that'd be the first thing. And then I'd probably write till, you know, like noon. And then I'd just dick around, you know, watch movie, um, work out. I always I always I but even like I I kind of like the flexibility I have right now because it's like I can work on like a project, yeah, like a more design-oriented project for work or something like that. I can kind of shift that gear and that there is a little bit of fulfillment that I've found in that as a contrast, as long as I'm doing yeah, the work on the other side.

SPEAKER_00: 35:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 35:25

Um I do enjoy the the mix of activities.

SPEAKER_00: 35:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 35:31

I mean, obviously, I'm not like I don't have like an accountant job or something like that, so I I can't speak to that.

SPEAKER_00: 35:36

And it makes sense because I like the mix as well. I mean, uh if if you know, my sort of ideal situation would be, you know, getting back to writing more articles that are interesting to me about stuff going on in life or this thing happening culturally and and uh uh and all that, but then you know, making a video that's more creative, making a video that's more educational, you know, like I like switching back and forth between the type of thing it is within the form of writing or making a video, you know, doing doing a creative act is nice, you know. If I was like just writing screenplays for six hours a day, yeah, and like wasn't really doing anything else on the creation side, yeah. But but then of course diversifying consumption, watching movies, TV shows, reading books, nonfiction fiction, going to art installations, you know, photography, whatever, like that like that would be tough. And I had that for a long time, just writing screenplays. Yeah. Um at the same time, not to appropriate this, but I can get a little bit uh obviously where I'm doing way too much, or you're a photographer. Okay, now you're a writer and you're a writer and you're making videos, you're making educational, but you know, it's like uh answer.

SPEAKER_04: 36:55

Like I would I like the time that's going towards work projects now would hopefully shift towards yeah, like full like photo projects and right things like that. Yeah. Um, but yeah, for now that this is what I want to I want to do. I want to get this thing done and made. I want to see what that feels like to like see that through. Yeah. Um and I mean it's time, you know, it's it's it's time. So um yeah, I mean that's kind of where that where that is. I don't know what that looks like either. Just right, one step at a time is kind of all I all I can do. But yeah, I mean I'd I'd love some more accountability on the side of just like, hey, where are you at? Where you at? Like right. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 37:41

You're um not to this this is gonna seem like a subject shift, but um that just made me think of your YouTube channel. You're about to hit 2,000 subscribers, buddy. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_04: 37:51

I don't know if I just I have no enthusiasm for that right now.

SPEAKER_00: 37:55

Yeah, that's fine. I just I just saw I think I was look I changed a little bit of the formatting of this web of this YouTube channel to just be like vit the videos and less like I mean I there's still playlists and stuff, but I was looking at the channels that we have linked, and yours is the first one, and it was at 1.99k. I was like, oh dang, dude's about to hit 2000. That's a rollover, I guess.

SPEAKER_04: 38:19

Yeah, I think I've been at 1.99 for like a year.

SPEAKER_00: 38:22

Um I feel like it ticked up like yeah, from like 198, obviously, but yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_04: 38:28

Yeah, I'll um I don't know what that'll be. Um see the thing is is the the only like feasible content route I could see right now is talking about the stuff I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00: 38:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 38:41

And that I kind of get to do that here. And if I did it there, I think I'd turn it, it would turn more into like trying to monetize the idea of writing. Yeah. And we talked about that a little earlier today. Just that's just seems gross to me. Like, I don't want to monetize I don't want to be like the person who makes videos about being a writer instead of writing. Like, I just want to get this fucking project done and get this try, you know, try to get this film made and then you know, once that's seen through, go move to the next one. Yeah, just keep my head down. Um, and so the idea of adding like an extra layer of complication to have to uh like this this is plenty accountability, I think. I hope. Yeah. And um beyond that, I'm like, yeah, you know.

unknown: 39:29

Dropping pens.

SPEAKER_04: 39:32

Um, but yeah, I mean that's that's the real thing with me, is yeah. Hopefully next time when we sit down, maybe later this week, even um, I'm back in a routine and I can hold that. I want to hold it through the winter. I'd like to. Yeah. Just consistent. Because I mean, if I if I can get a hundred days of doing that, I'm gonna be upset. So I do want to start sharing the work though. I'm not maybe not on the podcast, I don't think, but um and now a stage reading.

SPEAKER_00: 40:03

A stage reading of act one.

SPEAKER_04: 40:06

Um but yeah, I'll probably I'll probably share with you a little bit more and just kind of yeah. I just because I want to get it into the I just get it moving. Yep. Just push it. Like I gotta get over this idea that oh well it's not gonna be like this, or it's not gonna just like fuck you. Just get just go. Just it's time. You're send it wasting time. Yeah, yeah. So uh that's my state of the union. I don't know if if I miss anything, but 45 minutes. Do you wanna just pick a topic and maybe riff for 20 minutes and get out of here? Yeah. I think this is okay. Do we want to give some context? I think they peep some people know about this, some people don't.

SPEAKER_00: 40:46

The listeners don't know that on Alex's cabinet he has all these three by five note cards with a typed statement idea quote on it.

SPEAKER_04: 41:00

And some of them have been there for like what long time years. I mean, yeah, probably longer than that. Yeah, a long time.

SPEAKER_00: 41:08

I don't yeah, I've never read them all.

SPEAKER_04: 41:11

Yeah. So we're thinking about picking one and then just discussing it as an easy way to kind of fix around a topic. Obviously, more of this episode has been putting up guardrails and setting an expectation. But I think, yeah, maybe that's a good way to end it.

SPEAKER_00: 41:28

Alright, I'm gravitating towards the top right card. Okay. I can't see it. Yeah, I can't. Is uh something, something. Top right. Can you read it? Right there. Yeah, top right.

SPEAKER_04: 41:43

It says arrogance is a dangerous cliff.

SPEAKER_00: 41:45

Oh god. We're gonna retread into all my ego and narcissism bullshit that I talk about.

SPEAKER_04: 41:52

Do you want to keep that card or do you want to switch it?

SPEAKER_00: 41:53

No, we gotta keep it. We can't bail on it. See it won't that arrogance is a fragrance is a dangerous cliff. Dangerous fragrance. It's a fragrant, it's a fragrant cliff. Arrogance is a dangerous cliff, it's also a fragrant cliff, I guess. Smells like shit.

SPEAKER_04: 42:12

Um, so all of these are just uh little uh ideas that I've come across at different times, and I'll type them up and I'll put them on there. And yeah, the ones at the top have been there the longest because obviously it works down. So that was one of the OGs. I'm sure if you peeled that one off, there's a layer of dirt.

SPEAKER_00: 42:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 42:28

In an index card shape around it. But wow. Yeah, what's your takeaway when you read that?

SPEAKER_00: 42:36

Well, yeah, you know, I think if I took it where my first thought was it would actually lead it away from what arrogance is, you know, um, without spending a lot of time on it. Something that I think I've grappled with myself is being on the spectrum of a narcissist and in the sense of um I think the definition of a narcissist, there's an element of it where a narcissist has grandiose thoughts about themselves. Um and I again I don't want to turn this into a thing about that, but I I going back to like root cause and like trying to troubleshoot, like why why are you this way or this or that or whatever, I I think in those terms a lot because I am levying introspection and sort of these diagnostic tools against myself as a result of being frustrated with where I am in my life. And part of that frustration isn't just you don't have enough money or you don't have this or you haven't hit this quantitative goal, whatever. It's being plagued by that aspect of narcissism, which is this grandiose feeling about what where you should be. Um and we talked about an episode before where I I talked about um indulgence versus sacrifice and uh this feeling of um I feel like I deserve the bad example is being an Academy Award-winning filmmaker, but I don't I I don't want to do any of the work to actually get there. Yeah. Um, and that's what that aspect of narcissism does to a person. It thinks like that should be me. I deserve that, but I don't I don't I shouldn't have to do all the hard work to get it.

SPEAKER_04: 44:39

Um I think that's one of our most popular episodes, by the way. Oh, really? One where just like do the work.

SPEAKER_02: 44:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 44:46

Or like stop.

SPEAKER_00: 44:47

Yeah, stop making and arrogance to me is maybe like you know, a form of uh a corrupted form of confidence where someone who's arrogant doesn't necessarily have this grandiose delusional per like idea of what status they should have in whether it's financial, artistic, um, social capital, you know, whatever, but they're just um so self-centered and self-absorbed that they have no ability to see anything but what how the world provides them with an immediate benefit. Yeah. Um everything runs through them. And so that inability to have any kind of empathy, introspection, self-awareness, it's just this blind allegiance to whatever you want in a given moment. Um, you know, and the dangerous cliff is to me ending up as somebody who's entirely alone because that allegiance to your own self-interest alienates people and um creates creates uh uh you know damage in those relationships that um ends up putting you on the path of being on your own, completely on your own. Um and I think to wrap it up, arrogance also can block a person from learning from the consequences of their action. And the concern I have about narcissism is narcissists see the consequences and they don't change, but they modify their behavior to get the better long-term benefits because they learn that doing focusing on the short-term benefits costs them too much, and that's what I worry about for myself that go into that a little bit more. Um if a narcissist thinks um, you know, is uh treat somebody poorly in the moment, and they see, well then when I do that over time, I don't get these things in return. Maybe it's affection, maybe it's um money, you know, who knows, whatever it is. So I don't like those consequences. But I understand that if I behave in this certain way toward these people, you know, like if I'm nice, if I'm charming, if I'm seemingly self-aware, if I'm like if I if I play the the part of someone who understands empathy, that will let that person's guard down, they'll feel comfortable with me, they'll open up, and then I get all of those benefits, you know, over the long term. Um, even though in that moment that person, whatever they're doing, maybe I want to be mean to them or um or I want to tell them they're wrong, or I want to get upset or irritated or whatever.

SPEAKER_03: 48:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 48:35

Um and I think someone who's arrogant, they don't think beyond that moment, but I feel like a narcissist is way more calculating and and aware of those things, and then able to perform in a way that gets them the ultimate things that they want. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 49:00

And that's is that like a reflection, or is that like just something you've observed and people that I guess carry narcissistic would it be like tendencies or yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 49:14

I mean, I think definitely I've crossed paths with a few and had sustained exposure to one in particular where I I observe that specific aspect of what my understanding of narcissism was. Well, this person isn't really changing. They're going, oh, they're learn they're just learning and innovating on their behavior. Oh, if I apologize, it will like then they'll feel like I care, and then they'll give all these things to me. Yeah. I couldn't give a shit about actually apologizing. Yeah, it's a performance. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, and and you know, this isn't me like saying like I'm a full-blown narcissist, but I do think that there's an aspect of me that's on that spectrum. Yeah. And I, you know, we talked before the show about immortality and legacy and all that stuff. Like that stuff, that stuff swirls around in there. And again, as I deploy introspection, I'm like, God, you know, like like I read an article about this guy that became a content creator around his narcissism. He was he sort of branded himself as like the I'm a narcissist.

SPEAKER_04: 50:29

Get in the world.

SPEAKER_00: 50:30

Well, he he was sort of a failure, you know. Um, he hadn't really he hadn't really sort of delivered on the promise of what he seemed capable of. And I don't know what happened, I can't remember what catalyzed it, but he started making content around his narcissism and like all of his introspection and talking about you know his flaws and all this stuff, and he like got a million subscribers and it's a whole big thing. Yeah. But it just, you know, it's like the effective narcissist. Yeah, it's like well, it's like and it just it's just like you you just like sort of double down on your narcissism, I think, in some of you, you're you're you almost feed it, I would imagine. You're you're you learned that being a this combination of a self-aware narcissist is like this captivating thing for people to to see, and and you figured it out. Yeah, like you got the you got the financial benefit and all that stuff, and then I don't know. Like, I don't know, you know, I don't know that he's actually like a better or different person. It could be making him worse, you know, who knows? Um but I read that article and I was like, is like because I feel like I'm very good at being self-aware and introspective, and I'm like, am I doing it because is this a performance? Yeah, well, am I doing it because a narcissistic element or a a big element of my personality that's narcissistic? Is that fueling that self-awareness and introspection because I want to modify my behavior to get more of what I want?

SPEAKER_04: 52:15

Yeah. I don't it was like It's like a performance, but like is this a character? Like, is this am I Well, it really goes back to the the Am I fueling this or like is this I guess is this in this example is this trait that I've always taken as just a piece of my innate personality? Is this actually a byproduct of right?

SPEAKER_00: 52:42

Yeah. Yeah. And so it was like a moment like that David Foster Wallace speech where the fish is like, what the hell is water? Yeah. It felt like that. I read that article and I was like, Yeah. Am I in water right now? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 52:56

Uh like it really. Yeah. I don't think you're you're I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 53:04

I I don't Well, you gotta watch out because narcissists can really make people feel like you know, they're for sure.

SPEAKER_04: 53:11

I mean then then again though, like you and I don't have like an entirely surface level relationship. Right. And like, you know, at this point we've you know, we've been pretty close for yeah, you know, the better half the better part of a decade at this point.

SPEAKER_00: 53:27

So I mean you're either a much more talented actor than well, I'll tell you what, uh something else that I've observed in in trying to diagnose behaviors and stuff is like you know, you think about your family and then you think about your friends. And I don't know if I've talked about this on the show before, but you know, when you have moments that you're not happy with yourself about or you feel shame or you don't like how you behaved or whatever, I always go to say to myself, I don't really I I I'm pretty good around friends. I'm like, but I can be more difficult and challenging around family. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 54:14

And I'm like You get like a pass in your mind.

SPEAKER_00: 54:16

Well, I I said uh but made me go, I wonder if the perception of unconditional love takes those you know, it removes the checks and balances that you know a friendship has.

SPEAKER_04: 54:32

Yeah, I can't just be you'll you'll blow the friendship, but it's harder to blow a marriage or to blow your relationship with your kids or your mom or whatever, you know? I well, as somebody who is who has been very close to people who have decimated the relationship with their kids or their mom or their spouse, I've seen that a lot, especially when I was growing up. Um that does happen and it is bad. Right. And yeah, you know, I've seen that come from narcissistic narcissistic tendencies in people. Yeah. Um, I mean, I'm not a I'm not gonna diagnose anybody as a narcissist or not, but sure. Um like I've hung out with you and your kids and your wife.

SPEAKER_02: 55:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 55:12

And I've hung out with people who have destroyed those things, and the dynamic is very different. Right. Um I I don't know, personal personal experience speaks to that, but yeah. I mean it's one of those things where you're when you're in it, you're like, it's like the fact that you're like, Am I? Right. Is probably a good sign.

SPEAKER_00: 55:34

Well, and you know, and I think again, there's a spectrum, you know. I think some of the people you may have encountered have been I don't know, and there's also a spectrum where it's like maybe both of us are full-blown narcissists, but the self-aware narcissist is so good at controlling their behavior because they don't want to lose their feelings. I need to get into acting immediately then. I need to channel this. Whereas the the the the narcissist who has no self-awareness, yeah, but still f perceives of unconditional love, I don't know, and doesn't think there's gonna be any consequences because they're so blind to it. Yeah. Obviously, there are.

SPEAKER_04: 56:12

There's only so much somebody will take, but I the and like, I mean, obviously, you know, you read about narcissists and you the the first thought is like, Am I a narcissist? Right, right, yeah. Um maybe this is just something a narcissist. No, um narcissist bastard. I fucking I I I think I I'm way too emotional about like people. Like, I just I don't know, I'm too sensitive. Right. Like I don't know if this sensitive narcissist is quite a which uh you know maybe that's just like me being a narcissist. No, but I mean I'm I'm a very I mean like it's not easy to just wreck me and then I'm like I'm really concerned with how this person is. Like, how did I make this person feel? Or and I'm I I try to be pretty aware of that in every interaction of like, oh man, like I've something's happened to me in the past where I've felt this way and I don't want to feel that way, and I'm gonna go out of my way to make sure that I don't make another person feel that way. Yeah. And sometimes, I mean, especially in like your spousal relationship and stuff, yeah, that you fuck up. Yeah, 100%. Um, but yeah, I try to, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 57:31

Yeah, I think the only thing for me that trips me up about self-dianism. Next week we're gonna have a psychologist on the show is just that the grandiose aspect. Because whenever I read that aspect of narcissism, it freaks me out.

SPEAKER_04: 57:44

It's almost like a like a horoscope though. Yeah. Like you read the horse, like you're like, I'm Capricorn, you're like, I'm a fucking Capricorn for sure. Labeling and yeah, becoming becoming it because of the you're you're like, I'm this sign, and then you're like, oh yeah, 100% that's me. And then it's like, oh no, you misread that. You're actually this. Oh fuck. Oh, well, that's definitely more me.

SPEAKER_00: 58:04

Right, right. Yeah. No, absolutely. Um, but arrogance, and I think I think you know, the things that you articulated that maybe push you put push you away from any possibility of being a narcissist.

SPEAKER_04: 58:17

Oh, and I'm not I'm not saying like I haven't I don't have like a medical diagnosis. No, I know no capability of doing that to myself.

SPEAKER_00: 58:24

But but I think people in the absence of maybe a s like a like a on a sociopath narcissistic spectrum, where sociopath is like to me the far, you know, the super extreme of the whole that whole that whole side of a human psychology. Arrogance is sort of like the extreme state of a non-narcissistic or sociopathic type person. Yeah. This is me just I am not like obviously it's like I haven't taken psychology courses. I am just speaking out of everything that I've read and and and and done, just as sort of like a casual observer, not somebody that's studying human psychology. So if anybody out there is listening and they're like, dude, you are way off. Yeah, please, I'm not trying to say this is this is what it is. This is just my interpretation of what I've pieced together in my life. But arrogance being an extreme state for sort of a non-narcissist sociopathic person. Yeah. Um uh and it is a dangerous cliff and and the consequences to me are complete solitude.

SPEAKER_04: 59:33

Yeah. Yeah. You said it, you said it during when you were speaking just a minute ago, but the thing I wrote down, and I I try to read these, you know, a couple times a month. I'll just walk over and take a look and yeah um, you know, use them as a check. But I wrote down checks and balances. Yeah. Um, and that's what comes to mind, and like that's what those are. Obviously, we've talked about these conversations, like using this these conversations more towards that. Um You know, say the union with your family, with your with your spouse, with your you know, friends, things like that. Those are good. Um looking yourself in the mirror. But checks and balances, I think, uh what I like arrogance is a dangerous cliff, and it's also a deeply human thing. Yes. Um most people are arrogant as like their their default state.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:26

Um or a learned state, yeah. The consequences, if they feel them, yeah, may help them recover from arrogance. May say that, say that again. That that you move toward arrogance versus like born arrogant, yeah. But you can move toward arrogance because consequences don't happen. You somehow double down, double down. And then as things fall apart, you start m getting sh you know pulled off you know toward the edge of the cliff. Yeah, some people figure out how to keep themselves from the state.

SPEAKER_04: 1:01:05

It definitely builds on itself, it feeds on itself. Arrogance is going like arrogance breeds more arrogance. Right, right. Um and you know, you can you can think of like what is the cure to arrogance? It's like detachment from your your sense of self. Um, I think that's a very important thing. I think um having checks and balances, uh having things that almost like built in pre-built or pre-designed speed bumps to kind of am I being an arrogant piece of shit right now? Like not I mean, not only like am I being a piece of shit, because arrogance doesn't necessarily have to affect just on a relational level, it can affect just how you're you know uh we were talking about writing. If you write something and you're like, oh my god, this is the best thing ever, that's arrogance, absolutely, and it's like realistically, it's probably not. So I mean you can um you know, but do you have that checks check in balance to where you're um you're gonna step back and you know get out of the immediate rush of emotion and double check yourself to okay, or you know, put this, put it out. Now, there's also though there's a fine line between arrogance and like I don't want to say like self-hatred. What's a better word for that? Um uh arrogance and uh no self-esteem or yeah, yeah. I think there's a fine line between those two things. Self-loathing. And maybe, maybe like you said, arrogance is is confidence gone astray. Yeah. Um, so maybe it's more like the the maybe the the black and white of it is more confidence and lack of you know, self-esteem or self-hatred or whatever. Um but yeah, I think those that's also something to I have to keep in mind.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:01

Yeah, because to me, comp because confidence is like there's still a like there's a kind, warm, loving person there, a self person capable of selflessness, whereas arrogance is probably an unkind, potentially cruel, um, selfish person. Definitely who thinks everything they do is right.

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:19

I think it's more of a detrimental behavior than confidence, yes.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:23

Yeah. Yeah. And I think you that was interesting, like the like somebody's arrogance is gonna inform their work, you know. Part of me saying, you know, uh think it, feel it, make it, send it is I I get concerned about the grandiose aspect of narcissism with me making me believe that if I made it, it's good. It's good. Yeah. And and it can be sent immediately after creation because that unwavering element of my psyche that says you are meant to be some big thing makes you put everything out there and try everything you can to create that thing that's gonna that's gonna align your your existence with the grandiose per you know idea of yourself.

SPEAKER_04: 1:04:27

Well, and we like it when we talk about arrogance breeds more arrogance, like success breeds success, unchecked success kind of breeds failure eventually. Yeah. Um, which obviously then you're you're kind of giving in to this idea of success failure as your as your goalpost or as you're measuring your points of measurement. But this idea that you know, if if you let's let's you let's use photography. If you have a photo exhibit and it's a success, right, then you're gonna immediately yeah have that thought, like, oh, I've reached this point where like, oh, I edited my head, or oh, I don't need to do this because uh X, Y, and Z, I figured this out. Um you know, you you can kind of start to get lenient with the processes that that keep things on a you could even say we got like arrogant about the podcast, yeah. In a in a sense, like right, but you get lenient about these processes that uh these craft quality control, these cra the craft. And um, you know, you start to just look for the next success or you look forward through the process to like, okay, well, I know the process is there, I've mastered it, and in reality, I think the most useful thing to do is always be like, okay, let's get back to the you know, the process is the thing that never changes. We harp on it all the time, and there's a reason. It's like you get back to that always, and you never look forward to like the the victory or the success or the whatever, it's a byproduct of uh I mean, it it shouldn't even be a byproduct that you aim for, it can just be a byproduct that it's cool. But you know, if if if the craft in the constant refinement of the craft and the respect of that is the is is the intention, then I think you're setting yourself up for a much more sustainable output. Yeah. Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:29

It's a humility that that that you know, it's this humility before.

SPEAKER_04: 1:06:33

Humility is the is the opposite, I think, of arrogance in a in a sense. Yeah, humility. Um not performative humility. Right. No, for example. Yep. Performative we live in a world of perform performative humility.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:46

Uh and that's everywhere. Isn't there the the phrase uh faith in the process or believe in the process? Um just the idea of you are not sort of worshiping at the altar of outcomes and or how this how this feeds what you think you deserve, or the all this ego and all this other stuff. It's just like uh you know, the the craft is the thing, the discipline, you know, um it's the only thing that matters. Yeah. Yeah. It's like um it's like uh, you know, I think of like some of the kung fu movies, you know, or Luke and Yoda, like they have to break you before they can train you. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like Uma Thurman goes to the destroy your sense of yeah. Yeah, like you like she's so arrogant and cocky, you know, he's gotta put her in her place. What's the big in her mind, right? And that's that's interesting in that conversation.