Studio Sessions
Discussions about art and the creative process. New episodes every other week.
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Studio Sessions
59. Rethinking Collaboration: Why Working Together Still Matters
On one side, there’s the protected solitude every creator needs: the quiet pass where you can be wrong in private, find the frame, and follow intuition without a chorus in your ear. On the other side, there’s the charge you only get in a room full of capable people. Being back on a large production rekindled that feeling—clear roles, shared language, and the thrill of adding a small but meaningful piece to something thousands will experience. We unpack the difference between leadership and tyranny, how to invite notes that respect intent, and the sequencing that keeps collaboration from becoming micromanagement: make it, then collaborate.
We also get practical about attention. Phones steal rooms. Presence creates rooms. We trade stories about phone-free sets, building spaces that force focus, and experimenting with dumb phones to defend deep work. Along the way we spotlight the hidden collaborators behind “solo” wins—editors, producers, confidants, and the friend who quietly says, this scene drags—and why the best teams treat feedback like a craft, not a power move.
If you’ve wondered when to protect your vision and when to call the room, this conversation offers a playbook: sequence feedback, name the goal, empower specialists, and design environments where attention can’t leak. Subscribe, share with a teammate who makes you braver, and tell us: when do you go solo, and when do you bring in the chorus? -Ai
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
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Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
It had been a golden afternoon, and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the sunlight.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I think the biggest reason I wanted to change things up a little is I just felt like I was being lazy with it. Right, yeah. Like the craft of Yeah, it just wasn't like every writer needs an editor kind of thing. Yep. Like I just felt like I was, you know, oh, let's just sit down and shoot the shit. And then it also, I was like, man, I kind of feel like we're just talking about the same thing. Because you and I can talk about it again, and we we mentioned this in the last one, but it's like we can talk about the same thing ten times. And when we're right here, and we have all the context of like, oh yeah, we chatted on the phone for 10 minutes here, and we've sent each other these things, or like to a movie a couple weeks ago. We have this context from seven years ago that informs this, or from you know, three years ago that informs this that was off air. Yeah, there's like a shorthand, and it's like we can literally talk about the exact same thing and still glean some kind of nugget from each other from it. Yeah. And be like, oh, okay, that's interesting. Let's revisit that. And I just don't know if that translates as well when we're here for an hour out of context. Where I think yeah, it might just feel like meh, we're just talking about the same thing over and over. So yeah, that was the biggest reason. Um, but yeah, just kind of like a guy. I think I titled what did we title the episode was um Deferring the work you're deferring, yeah. And I kind of felt like there was some life stuff that matched up with the episode topic. So definitely. But now we're here and we don't have a topic.
SPEAKER_01:We just talked for about an hour and yeah. And I would say that that you know, that conversation obviously has sort of like it's drawing upon things that were happening happening, you know, from a video that we watched or, you know, whatever, but there's lots of um uh connection points to the stuff that we've talked about in many of our previous conversations. And I think there is part of me that would be excited to kind of chart new territory a little bit. Um is there anything in particular? I wish. I know I I I yeah, I know. I think I thought about it in the drive over. Um but I I don't think it's anything to sort of sustain a conversation. I think it would like start one and then it would, you know, move into other things. Um but again, like when I was reading more and and and sort of consuming in different ways different work, I mean there was like stuff where I'm like, this is a whole conversation, like this idea. Um and yeah, definitely haven't had that. And certainly drawing on a card or you know, that book that we that you had that we would open and point to something and just like do it, you know, like those are fun prompts to yeah, to start a to start a conversation. Um but yeah, I I wish I I wish I had something that I read or watched and we could really talk about this uh a specific idea.
SPEAKER_03:How did it feel being back on set today? It's been a little bit, yeah. Set.
SPEAKER_01:And you mean like at TSO? Oh uh you know, this year it was you know, there was excitement because I could you really use the money. And I really enjoyed the work last year. Um a lot of what I made prompted AI to make, didn't end up in the show. But uh because I kind of I started out last year with a very sort of negative attitude, like this like going back to making content was sort of like uh uh a symptom of moving toward failure as a as someone trying to you know make work on YouTube. But this year I was really excited, and it's it's a lot of stupid reasons. It's you know, um being in a room with a couple guys that you know you enjoy their energy, and especially Nick, my close friend who brings me on, um, you know, it's always great to just be with him, not only because he's so true and real and open and vulnerable and all that stuff when you can have private conversations, but you know, I've been doing this long enough, even though there were several years where I never I didn't work with him on anything, that it it's it's it's like going to see I'm going to see Back to the Future on Sunday and IMAX with the family. It's like it's like that. There's nostalgia, it's like, man, I remember back in 2008, we were in a windowless room in Bourbon chopping up, so you think you can dance, you know, uh content, and you know, you get back in that room and you're like it just all comes back. Yeah. And uh and that's interesting. The other thing too is it's it's it's there's just always something for me that is cool to be part of a big fucking thing. Big because of money, big because of the fandom Transserbury and Orchestra has, and you get to play a role in this little slice of the greater show business universe, yeah, that people like plan to come to it every single year. It is non-negotiable, and you get to be there behind the scenes and like walking around the venue today, and all the crew that was there, and the you know, production team, the manager, tour manager, all that stuff, and then you're there with a designer, like the entire designer of the show. It's just like I don't know, there's something cool about you being welcome to be to be there. You're part of it, yeah. Couldn't happen without you, right? In a in a sense, yeah. Yeah. Um, and even if I have a very you know minor contribution, ultimately what you see in the show, there's still it's still fun to sort of contribute to you know, in a creative energy that like if Nick's struggling, like, oh what do we do here? Like, oh, what if he did this or what if we did that, you know?
SPEAKER_03:Um do you think there's something to be said for like some I mean, we've talked about this before, and like collaboration is one of my favorite parts of the process. Like, I love getting general ideas and then putting that out into a room and seeing what happens to it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um, I mean, obviously, I have like controlling tendencies and things that like, oh, I like to do it this way or this way, yeah. Um, but I do love the collaboration aspect, and that's what's cool to me about bigger things like that is you have all of these pieces, and everybody's doing like yeah, their thing, hopefully to the best of their abilities. And if you have a good, you know, producer, showrunner, director, whatever, yeah, hopefully they're empowering the people that are working to you know want to give all of all of their energy. And um, and then yeah, you just have this like massive force that's always gonna be bigger than the individual. Yep. And um I just I feel like we've moved away from that a little bit as a as a society, yeah, especially in creating things. We were watching, you know, we both watched that interview. Um, and uh he's talking about um like I just can't work with people, like I can't work with anybody else. I, you know, don't like collaborating. And while I get that, that's like a very like that's one person who I feel like did have a lot of influence and influence a lot of people to think that same way. Yeah. Um so being back in the collaboration, I'm I like that you felt like wow, it's cool to be a part of this. Well, and do you think one one? I think what do you think of the state of collaboration kind of became not cool with the influencer and like the I run my own business and like I don't want to be a cog in a machine, and like it we kind of threw the baby out with the bathwater in some sense, because I think what we can achieve together this sounds so well, but what what you can achieve as a group of people is so much more than what you can achieve as an individual, yeah. No matter what, and I mean I you know I work with teams like on a daily basis, and it's like you you you come up with something that you're like I would have never come up with that by myself, especially in the creative process. So, yeah, like what do you think about the state of that?
SPEAKER_01:And then was it a good reminder or well, I think I think there's some nuance here to outline, and I think I want to the person that we're talking about, you know, while he may make his videos for the most part by himself, but get some feedback or whatever, you know, when he's in that sort of I have a vision and I'm gonna execute that vision, it's relatively collaboration free, right? But he's getting collaboration in other forms. He's consulting brands, he's doing um uh, you know, maybe he's helping other creators with their stuff, but he's not in the lead, he's not the vision holder, but he's helping serve someone else's vision who who wants that input and that help. And not just because of who he is, but because of his gifts as uh a collaborator.
SPEAKER_03:He's he's proven that he can do the collaboration thing, and it's like not for him. Like you just so that's you know, that's one thing where I'm not dogging him. No, a hundred percent. I just think that you have a lot of people that probably looked at that yeah and took the influence from that, and all their only takeaway was, oh, it's cool to just do it by yourself. Yeah, and they never got to experience the other side and see, like, oh wow, this is actually really good. Like, there's a lot of fertile ground here to explore.
SPEAKER_01:And today for me, so so this person, you know, I know I know he probably collaborates with his brother in a sense, even if it's just jamming about ideas or what you could do, or you know, whatever. So there's I think he has a lot of collaboration in his life in different ways. And like today for me was this very interesting dichotomy of creation. I wasn't at TSO today making anything, but you're laying the groundwork and you're chopping it up about what to do for this song or that song, whatever. This morning I'm shooting B-roll for the intro to a video on one of my channels, and I'm like, I don't I wouldn't want anybody here while I do this. I don't want somebody over my shoulder, I don't need them moving stuff for me. Like, this is like I want to be alone with my vision and my idea, and I don't want anybody to make me second guess myself or um make me self-conscious about my choice and the framing and this. There's something that about that specific act of creation that I'm like, the only way for me to do this the way I want to is to just be here by myself. Yeah. Um, but then again, today I'm in a room with four guys, and we're setting the stage for what is going to be made, when I'm gonna come in, what's my role gonna be, um me getting on the same page with Nick about what I can and can't do schedule-wise, but then also what I can, what I want to contribute creatively. Um and you know, Brian, the designer, in some instances, be like, I mean, you know, I'm not sure what to do here, but you know, if you guys have any ideas when you're sitting here, like just put something together, you know. Um and last year was the same thing, you know. I'm like, oh, this would be cool to do this. Yeah, throw it all together as sort of like a proof of concept thing. He takes a look at oh, that's interesting. Let's put it up on the screen in the you're in the arena looking at your stuff up there, and then you know, some of it the tour management goes, Oh, well, we can't it's cool, but we can't do that because of this. You know, there's some political thing or whatever, you know, and you just didn't catch it. Um I you know, I'm definitely looking forward to having uh uh uh an experience in both ways. Um but then at the same time, there's times in that room where I can kind of see maybe Nick's looking over his shoulder to see what I'm doing, and and I can tell that that whether it's how I'm technically executing it or creatively executing it, he wants to whatever. And I'm like, I just want to be left alone until I think it's done. You can tell me it's no good or we can't do it, whatever. Yeah, but don't get in there when I'm in this sort of like interrupt the process. Yeah, because there's like a there's like a I have to see this through. I can sense maybe it's not gonna work, or you're not gonna like it, but I I can't just abort the that creative process. I have to see it to the end and like come to the conclusion myself, or not myself, but with you, yeah, that nah this isn't gonna work. Yeah. But then also just like how I group my clips or this or that, like I get like you know, somebody might know better how to do that. I don't want to get in the weeds there, but it's it's sort of like I don't know, there's some kind of vulnerability there. I I don't know what it is. Um where I kind of just need to be left alone to do my thing.
SPEAKER_03:When you're executing yeah, like particular tasks. Right. What do you think about like this state, broader state of yeah, sorry, yeah that yeah. No, I mean I I mean that's exactly kind of two cards. I don't know. I I like I haven't really spent a lot of time thinking about it, but it does feel like you know, we have been I mean, you you talked about YouTube. Like think of how many people do YouTube or social media related content. And you know, you you even you said it that is the type of platform that kind of drives you towards isolation. Or I mean I don't that you didn't say that, but you said like I kind of want to be alone with myself to do this.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And I think there's you know, you have a lot of people that are making stuff for that those platforms, and they're probably just following that intuition of like, I think I want to be alone to do this, but then I think you start to lose this respect for oh, there's a there's also like and maybe it's not for maybe it's it's not for like I don't think you see a lot of people trying to make a movie by themselves or do you know some of these things, but then but I do think there maybe is it's just not sexy right now, like the collaborative process working with yeah, people.
SPEAKER_01:It's hard because the stuff that I'm consuming, you know, like coming in here, I you know, just listen to um you know uh an episode of Smartless and uh Armchair Expert, and it's all these actors talking about collaborating with scene partners. I listened to Oscar Isaac's episode where he talks about working with Gail Mort Guillermo del Toro and all the different things he said, and you know, he watched a cut of the final scene and felt he could do it differently. Guillermo told him no, and then he's that then the next day he's setting up for him to do it again, for Oscar Isaac to do it again. Um, you know, so like that gets me charged up about like lots of collaboration is happening out there. Um, I think about like uh Grainy Day's YouTube channel, and while he doesn't have people helping him shoot and editing his videos, every video he makes, he's got other phot photographers with him and they're making their thing, but together, and there is a collaboration in that. There's an exchange of energy, there is inspiration that their work brings, you know. So collaboration isn't always a bunch of people making the same thing. Sometimes it's a bunch of people making their own things together, yeah. Um, but then yes, there are situations where people are I mean, even even Casey, when he talks about working alone, he still has a guy that watches his stuff and gives him feedback, you know. So there's still collaboration there, even though the majority of his work he's saying, I want to do it by myself. Yeah. But again, the collaboration comes in sort of like vision, execution. I can't think of anything else to do with this thing, but I need someone to watch it to just double check if there's something that doesn't be true or a false beat or whatever. And that's kind of what I'm talking about with the TSO thing. Like, just let me make it, let me do my version. And then look at it, and then I'm ready to move it over and get collaboration at that stage. Yeah. Versus you over my shoulder.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And I don't think over the shoulder is a I don't think that's collaboration.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's more I think what the way I just said it, it sounds like micromanagement or sort of like just telling me what to do as a button pusher. But I do think there is sort of like I don't know, what do you think of it? Like there is like a there is like a uh there is there is sort of like making the thing together in a good way. Um but and I'm sure that's happened with me, um, or could happen even on the show, but uh and that sometimes maybe that happens when there's sort of like there isn't a like someone doesn't have the vision, you know, like oh, I I see it, let me go off and do it. It's sort of like I don't know what this is yet. Let's screw around with it and see if something bubbles up for you or me, and then if it does, talk it through and then go do it.
SPEAKER_03:I just think we underestimate, like, because we are kind of very focused on like having the vision, having the finished product in in mind. And we've talked about before, like just when when you kind of play with the unknown, you're more likely to get work that sustains that has a you know has a more depth to it. Yeah. When you go past just what your mind can conceptualize in that in that moment, yeah, you're more likely to get something that's meaningful. Um and I think the same thing is true for collaboration. It's like there's the the in an independent vision, but then when you when you do, you know, kind of mind meld, you get all of these different perspectives and things involved. I think you can make something that kind of transcends what you could have come up with. Yeah. Or you you know, you just run into an idea that, oh, that was right in front of me. I would have never seen that. Thanks for bringing that. So yeah, I think we've just kind of we we fixate on that independent vision a little bit just because of how culture is. Culture is a very individual thing, yeah. You know, sort of and especially to authorship with like, oh, my, you know, you're an entrepreneur, my small business, my my life, my creation, my whatever, my product to the my consumption habits, my you know, I think there's just not as much like I'm not necessarily saying it's like an arbitrage opportunity or something, but there's just I think people miss out on how great that just an open collaboration can be. Yeah. Kind of what value that could bring because they're so focused on the the single like like my vision, carrying it out. Nobody else could possibly help me take this to a different place. Yeah, I just think it's an interesting thing to think about.
SPEAKER_01:I think especially is you know, especially because so much of our you know what we do comes from you know what we consume and what we think about making comes from film. Yeah. I just think of like a painter, a sculptor.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_01:I just don't you know, I don't you don't hear lots of stories of collaboration and then making the thing. You know, certainly like I've mentioned before, you know, some of them have assistants, they have people that like help them with logistics of working with a large.
SPEAKER_03:Even like photography, uh unless you're shooting models, yeah, like it's a pretty isolated art form. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I know Alec Alex, we were talking about him. He has an assistant who comes with him on his shoots. And what like I'm sure the role is everything from sort of some creative input or you know, what do you think about this? Like, I don't know. Like uh, you know, if they earn that sort of trust or whatever, but then it's also like, hey, can you we're gonna stop in Jackson tonight? Can you like get the reservation there instead of and then yeah, make sure the lights are yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, and while the sort of creative collaboration aspect of that relationship might be minimal or sp very um sporadic, yeah um uh you know, there is collaboration happening.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, there's something to be said for just the yeah, make sure we've got a hotel room.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and sometimes it's just like your energy. Like I know that Nick probably had me on some shows where he didn't like need me creatively, yeah, but maybe I do something just a familiar soothing presence, you know, some therapy sessions, you know, whatever that just help with the flow state and sort of managing emotions and things like that. And there's a strong argument that that is a form of creative collaboration or collaboration versus like we gotta hire a production designer to figure out how this shit's gonna look, and they do, and you shape it, and you know, you collaborate creatively, logistically, you know, all that stuff. Um, but I I do I do think about these art forms, um, you know, again, painting, sculptors, all that stuff, and for the most part, the the the the big aspect of the project, the painting of the thing, the sculpting of the clay, is just done by the artist on their own. For sure. At least that's my understanding.
SPEAKER_03:I think of these things though, like we watched a documentary on the moon landing a while ago, and um, I forget what it was, I forget it was like a year ago that we watched this, but um I'm just sitting there and I'm like, how the fuck did they get people to the moon in a ship that Stanley Kubrick filmed it all on the stage? Um but this was like before computers were useful. Yeah. Like they just kind of the amount of just organization and brain power and I'm like it's that's incredible to me. It's it's impossible for me to even conceptualize how that's possible. And yet somehow it happened. And so I look at that, and yeah, I look at some of like my you know the films that I love, and I mean, yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent. But even like great painters, like the Sistine Chapel, like I I mean, you know, fact check this. I don't know this to be a hundred percent sure like true, but I'm pretty sure there were like assistants. Because I know that a lot of painters use assistance, absolutely, like a lot of especially in that era of like you know, we look at some of these pieces, and it's you know, the vision was cast, and then the assistants would help execute, especially for these massive pieces. I mean, uh now that I'm saying it, I'm like, yeah, the Sissine Chapel, absolutely, like there's no way one person can do that.
SPEAKER_01:Maybe he you know he piloted the brush, but somebody who would be like mixing paints and you know, getting him something to eat, you know, all this kind of stuff. Well, and then here's another question, you know.
SPEAKER_03:We should look that up, actually. That's it's a stupid thing to, but I'm just very curious.
SPEAKER_01:I'm just like one thing you hear with a lot of artists, especially artists that are sort of singular creators, or seemingly, you know, you think a painter, a sculptor, and I mean a painter who's painting like a canvas, you know, Bob Ross style, you know, like he's not like, hey, yeah, whatever, you know, or what do you think about this? Should I do the happy tree here? Or should it just or not, you know? But um what role does a muse play as a collaborator, even if it's not in some official capacity? Yeah, you know. Um, you know, you hear stories about artists that find their muse, and then it's like you can't go away, you're like something is happening. You're a wellspring of inspiration, of uh new new ideas, of um maybe di you help with my discipline, you know. The creative inspiration you give me keeps me sitting there painting instead of fucking off or being dramatic or you know, whatever, you know, whatever. Yeah. Um but even like you know, you think about a novelist. Obviously, they have collaborators, whether it's a family, a friend, or a significant other who reads their work, have editors. 100%. And for those editors who you know in some instances have off, you know, contribute significantly to the work, you know, you don't hear about them. Like do you know any editor by name? You know, do you see, you know, they they certainly have like a credit in the on the dust cover, but you know, like do people have interviews with them? Do they show up on podcasts? Are they on talk shows?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and there's I mean, there's definitely well-known editors, but yeah, I think well well known, well known in uh in sort of neat circles.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, circles, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. But I mean, yeah, no, I mean that's a that's a good point. Like you're not they're kind of I mean, it's like an editor on a film. Right. Right? Who gets the credit? It's probably the director. Um sometimes, you know, the writer, you don't really know who that is. If somebody did a second or third draft, sometimes they don't even get credited because they didn't make a significant enough um contribution to the to the script to when in reality it's like, oh, they actually changed three scene structures or like the structure of three scenes around, or they you know wrote a new scene and it completely unlocked the entire piece that wasn't working. So it's like you could say that they had a hundred percent uh can contribution to the piece because it didn't work and now it works. But yeah, I mean I just it's it's something I've I've you know, I was we you're talking about um kind of you being back in you know in it today, and I'm just like, man, I I think that's something that maybe it isn't undervalued, but it seems undervalued from my perspective.
SPEAKER_01:What do you think of the sources of that feeling? Is it like what what are you seeing out there that just gives you that feeling?
SPEAKER_03:Just I feel like people are just kind of thinking about every like the lone genius theory is just the predominant narrative to creation in our society right now. And I'm like, I just it makes me uneasy. I'm like because you're you one, you're gonna like the the quality output of the outputs are gonna go down, I think. I mean, some people can do it without you know a lot of collaborators, and you know, there's always gonna be edge cases on everything, but I just I mean, you know, I just think of them, yeah, the the moon landing or something. It's like wow, look at what pee like a group of people can accomplish together.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I think about that, you know, and I watch a lot of stuff just in the culinary world, whether it's everything from Oh my god, a restaurant or chef to a restaurant, yeah. Well, restaurant is a and what's fascinating about a lot of restaurant examples is you know, I think about Yoshitomo here, you know, I know David, um, because he's talked about it on social media in a couple QA's I've been to, you know, he's off on his own crafting dishes. You know, again, similar to what Casey does, you know, you sort of make the thing, and then you have your trusted collaborators who give you feedback, taste it, you know, maybe advice, you know, whatever it is.
SPEAKER_03:You've got people giving making the Setting possible for him to execute these things, like the kitchen, how well run is it? He's obviously not managing the like bit-by-bit operations of that.
SPEAKER_01:But you know, the the core art form, make you know, the dish, he's making it on his own. Then you know, you're sort of expanding it to the next circle of collaborators, getting their feedback, and then you know, execute it and the entire staff, the kitchen staff, everybody, you know, helps out in the making of it. Yeah. And off you go. Um everybody's skill is involved in the eventual presentation of it. Makes me wonder, and I don't want to start a different thread, but we we can just put no put that. I don't think it's worth going down, but like I think about you know, that whole stereotypical well, you think about a lot of the collaborative arts, you know, like we're trying to move away from this sort of dictatorial, authoritarian auteur. Yeah. And you see that as particularly, like it's almost like a it was just like an accepted thing in the world of the culinary arts that the chef is a total jerk and they're yelling, you know, the Gordon Ramsay approach to to to leading, yeah, you know, um, and uh and and that idea that their authorship, their vision, their art is they need these other people to help do it. And what gets lost in handing off the creation of your work and your vision, um, even if it's the tiniest little bit of offness from what you think it should be, creates an abusive response. Yeah. Um, you know, that's just that aspect of collaboration, that like this is just how it is. Yeah. And if you want to become a chef like I am, you need to take your licks and toughen up and all this kind of bullshit to to get there. That's that just drives me nuts.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I I mean, I at the same time though, I do think that that like kind of singular authority figure is important in a collaboration, in a collaboration. Like you have to have somebody who has a strong enough vision to cast it over a group. Because like if you just have a group and you're like, we're collaborating and nobody has a vision, yeah, you're gonna crash. And it's gonna it is gonna be the worst thing. Like you would be better off with a single thing because too many cooks in the kitchen is the the the saying. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:And I agree, you have to have somebody that's holding the vision and is the ultimate decision making. And I agree that you don't have to be a you don't have to be an asshole. Yeah. Um if you ever watch Band of Brothers, which if you haven't watched it, I highly recommend they lay that out perfectly. Um David Schwimmer plays the uh the regiment commander, yeah. And he's just yelling and punishing them all the time, all this stuff. They're like basically they're like, uh, you know, if this guy took a bull in the battlefield, good riddance. Yeah, we wouldn't be upset about it. And then when Dick Winters takes over, completely different leadership style. I mean, these guys, every single one of them would have taken a bull for this guy because he got dirty, he just a totally different approach. And I I always think back on that movie when it comes to um, you know, if you're sort of the point person with a family outing or on set or whatever, like it just it perfectly delineated um you know, a person in a position of leadership and how to um how to inspire the people that are there to help accomplish a common goal. Yeah. And it's it's just the best. Yeah. That show is so good. Have you ever seen Banner Brother? I've never seen it. No, yeah. What is it? So it's a World War II um uh it it really um what what was the network? Uh that's on HBO.
SPEAKER_03:HBO, okay. It sounds like an HBO showing. And it was um Yeah, I've never, never tuned in.
SPEAKER_01:It yeah, um Tom Hanks, Steven Spielberg were involved. It sort of feels like it's in the world of saving private Ryan. Yeah, EP's gotcha. Um and uh has a a similar vibe and feel to saving private Ryan, but um really sort of I think paved the way for like the golden era of cable drama, yeah, like Mad Men Damages, Breaking Bad, all that. Like, look to this as something that helps set the bar for what uh a television series, even though it was limited, I think it's 10 episodes or whatever, but it is phenomenal.
SPEAKER_03:The idea of television is so fascinating. Like you have a season ticket, yeah. It just seems I was think because I was thinking um about some of these network shows and just how tight the crews are. Yeah. And you'll have the same crew for 20 years. Absolutely. They're just like, oh yeah, dialed in. We're in season, we gotta rip out an episode a week, pretty much, and you know, you're three weeks to air. Yeah. And you're running like a slight delay on. I mean, it's crazy. Yep. Some of the yeah. Uh but yeah, I mean, just to tie a bow on it, I think I just think it's something that is a little undervalued, like collaboration in kind of our and maybe again, maybe that's just my clothes. Like, maybe everybody's like, oh, I fucking love collaborating. Right. But it just seems like something that I I think deserves more public affection. Sure. Yeah from like uh from like the lower level creative, cre creative, uh, lower level um like you know, you're talking about Oscar Isaac or like these Hollywood like collaboration is a necessity there. Absolutely, it's always been music, you know, taking a band on tour, even just like a a singles act, you know, you've got you know you've got um players with you, you've got producers, and you know, I mean, there's a lot that goes into yeah, even just recording a single singular artist project. Um and I yeah, I mean, we just kind of took this idea of like, oh, we're liberating the group because now we can do all that, you can record an album in your bedroom and mix it yourself and play all the instruments. And while I think that's super cool, I'm like I we are kind of losing something by over-indexing on that that you can do it all yourself. It's like just because just because you can do it all yourself doesn't mean you should be doing it yourself. I think creativity is just one of the great social experiences that we we have. I mean, there's nothing better than just like throwing ideas back. That's what we do all the time. We'll just toss ideas back and forth. And sometimes we'll get super fired up about something and we'll plan like a whole thing around it, and then you don't we don't do anything with it, but it's like you leave and you're just like floating. That's right. You're like, who cares? We didn't do anything with it. We just did something.
SPEAKER_01:Do you think that any part of you maybe doesn't gravitate toward making videos on YouTube because it's so singular. Singular. Maybe. Not that that's the sole reason, but an ingredient in that.
SPEAKER_03:Definitely as I've gotten older, I'm like, I love, I mean, I'm because I think I would have been more on that, like, I just want to do it all myself at one point. Yeah. And now I'm like, fuck that. Like, I want the best, I want to work with the best people. I want, I want to like work with people who can do things that I can't do. I want new ideas, I want to, you know, cast a vision and then see what their take on that is. And so like just the way I talk to people when I'm doing creative collaboration has changed to where it's like, okay, I need to make sure I'm presenting this idea or this set of ideas or this like kind of end goal that we have without boxing it in. I need to make sure that I'm presenting it in a way that leaves it wide open. Yeah. Cause and like I need to make sure that like I'm I'm providing what needs to be provided to get us moving without locking it down to like, hey, we're we're we're gonna it's gonna look like this or feel like this.
SPEAKER_01:I just need you to make it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh I don't want your input. Just yeah, paint it green. Yeah, just do it then. And sometimes you get to that point and you're like, yeah, this like, no, this isn't right. This needs to be like this. Right. And you know, I I have problems with that. Sometimes I'll I'll do stuff like that. And I'm like, where do I know? But then that's kind of where it comes down to just like trust your instinct. But I mean, that's rare. Like where you're like, because most of the time, especially when you're when you're having the dialogue in a right way, it's like this doesn't something doesn't feel right here. Do you feel that? It's like, yeah, I feel it too. Yep. And it's like, okay, let's let's take a few beats and figure out what what is what's not working.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:And then usually if you're really approaching it from an authentic place, you're not coming from the side of I'm right, you're wrong, or I have the the solution. Usually, and and not even from like the psychological manipulation of like, well, I'm gonna act like it's their idea. Yeah. Usually it's literally just stare at it, what's wrong here? Yep. And then it's like, I think it's this. And then it's like, yeah, it's that. And you kind of just both like will reach a conclusion about a thing. I'm sure you've had that experience with editing. Sure. Like I mean, we've worked on projects together editing wise, where it's like, you know, it's like, let's try to move this here to do this, and then it's it opens up. Yeah. So I don't know. Um yeah, I mean, I think it's just I s I I think it's been valuable for me, and I'm I'm like singing singing the praises. I mean, I just yeah, I I think that in your original question, do you gravitate away from some of these things because of how individual they are? I think maybe.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Because maybe it's just not as fulfilling.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and do you think just overall this is something that you're feeling, observing, um, clocking because you, you know, granted you collaborate at work, but it's you're still essentially alone. I know you have these mandatory in-office days or something like that, but you and I haven't gone out for doing our own thing but together in a long time. Um, you know, does does any any aspect of kind of being on your own and all aspects of your creation work, you know, your actual job and uh your personal work kind of magnify that feeling a little bit? And I don't mean that it's it's making it making a feeling that at work, I feel like I'm I mean that's constant collaboration.
SPEAKER_03:Of course, like yeah, that's it's everyday. Yeah. So that I mean, I'm definitely like getting that from that side of things. And even remotely, you feel like you get oh yeah, it's satisfying. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know I like I I think um yeah, I don't know what's magnifying it. Maybe it is just like some of the stuff I've watched recently. I just I'm like I don't I don't know. It's just like yeah, man, I feel like we should talk more about this, not the like I just want to do it myself. I just like there's something to be said for that, but it's I just want you know people to see that oh, that might be like the sexy creator does it all by theirself thing, and it's I just yeah, you know, I want people to experiment with both and see which one works.
SPEAKER_01:I know I talked about like AI and being able to maybe that take one of my scripts kind of could be, yeah. Yeah, taking one of my scripts and crafting uh, you know, a full feature out of it, however that happens. But you know, part of me sort of like without having without having said it goes, well, of course I'm gonna let people sort of like watch a scene or watch an act or watch a cut of it, and I want their feedback. Yeah, you know. Um I think too, and this is a thread that we can touch on just a little bit.
SPEAKER_03:You know, there's there's um I didn't even make that connection, by the way. Yeah. So yeah, maybe that was just sitting in my head. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I I sit there and go, again, idea or vision, I want to go off and make it all on my own. And then I want to bring in a collaborator, just as like, you know, and this happened with all my screenplays. I didn't like, hey Micah, I'm trying to work on this scene, and like I don't know what that guy's supposed to do. You know, it was like, let me just write the whole thing. Yeah, I'm not gonna write it to where I think this is done, it's great, I could shoot this tomorrow. It's this is the best I've got after six revisions, and I need your eyes on it to either test whether or not, you know, like I need you to check for untruthful, you know, untruthful moments, dips in energy, you know, all this sort of stuff.
SPEAKER_03:But where am I bringing my own context to it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But the big thing too is, you know, it's possible some people gravitate towards working on their own because not because they've gone uh to collabor, you know, that they've summited collaboration mountain and realized it's not for them. I'm sure there's some people that don't have a lot of experience with healthy collaboration. Yeah. And the example I'll give is the things a good example. Yeah. The things I struggled with in screenwriting or, you know, um showing somebody a video or whatever was they would give feedback based on what they would do with it, or versus sort of seeing what I'm going for and making it more or better my thing, you know, like the thing I'm trying to do. Um, or they would get caught up in like rules, like uh, you know, like they're giving feedback. Well, you're not supposed to have that happen before page 12. Like, like I don't that's not helpful. Yeah. You know, I need I need to know whether or not this feels honest, pure, truthful, whatever the word is. I also need to know, like, where does where do you get bored? Where does it feel like the energy dips? Where's you know, where's something confusing? Where are you disoriented? You know, logistical stuff. Yeah. Um, but then I also want you to kind of just understand what I'm going for and help me bring it closer to that. Or, you know, open up and I, oh, what if you did this? Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, but that yeah, that that is in alignment with what I'm trying to do, and I hadn't thought of it that way. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03:Do you think that's like a byproduct of us going more down the route of individual thinking and like because part of learning how to be a good collaborator is probably doing it more, and so I think you do run into some people. I mean, one, I I think there should be a distinction between ego and bad collaboration. Some people are just egotistical, sure. Their way is the right way, they're arrogant, they think binary, yep.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, or like the the person provides the better idea, but because it wasn't yours, you know it's better, but you throw it out.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, exactly. And that's always gonna be a thing. That's not a byproduct of like bad collaboration, that's just a byproduct of like shitty people. Yep. Or just maybe not even shitty people, but just like people who aren't good at that. Um but I do think there's probably some people that just don't know how like the only feedback that they've ever been given is from like a teacher or something. Yeah. Where it's like, and and you know, maybe it's a teacher who wasn't great at I mean, the the one of the greatest blessings anybody could get is a teacher who is good at giving feedback. Absolutely. Like I think back to some of my teacher, especially in like English, and just some of the feedback that I got on, you know, papers or stories or whatever, and like literally probably changed the course of my life and like where and that's so powerful.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:And I can think of like a couple of you know, really strong examples, and like that is how you collaborate, especially like part of the collaborative process is is again yeah, recognizing okay, this isn't like a perfect thing. Yeah, like this is a work in progress, this is a draft, and also it's not mine, right? So, like that's right, I need to figure I need to work on this level.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I don't need to make this about me and appropriate your work, yeah, um, or sort of like put my stamp on it so that when it does get made, I can go, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that was my idea. That's mine, yeah. Yeah. So do you do you think it is a byproduct of like excuse me, of let like we're doing less collaboration as a culture, and so people therefore are kind of less attuned to elegant feedback or well, I think I think just in general, a lot of what we have in our world creates more isolation, and I don't mean like total isolation, but we tend to sort of be in our own bubbles, you know. We're we're in the magic rectangle, you know, like looking at our social media, our this, our that, you know. Um uh I that's why I asked about sort of working remotely. There's sort of a physical isolation that while for some they might just honestly be like, look, it wouldn't matter if this person was in the room or not, like I think the the outcome wouldn't really differ at all. Um but for some maybe it does, and they're just not aware of it.
SPEAKER_03:Um and I like just to be clear, you know, I I think like I get a lot of cloud, but even still, like if we're working on a big project at work or something, we'll typically try to go in person for bits and pieces of of the process, just because creativity is kind of it thrives in physical proximity.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. Uh but then just you know, the tools that we have at our disposal, whether it's music software or AI or whatever, like or publishing software. Yeah, I mean you can you can go make things on your own. You don't need to get a band together, like you know, you can just like get a drum beat. You don't know how to play the drums, but you're a good vocalist or you're a guitarist or whatever, and you can just sort of plug that stuff in or use AI to you know create it, or you lay down your guitar track, your vocals, and AI just, you know, maybe you know what the time signature is, or you know, whatever. Um I think about my brother making his piece, but you know, again, he showed it to me at numerous stages and was comfortable with me going, this beat doesn't work for me. Like there's something like my brain wants you to cut to this angle. Like I'm I'm confused because you know, whatever. Now, if you're like if you want some sense of disorientation for the vibe, like I can see that, yeah. But I'll just tell you my gut instinct is this feels off to me. Yeah. Um, you know, like uh such a random example, but there's like a scene in uh Aangley's Hulk movie where he he what is he what's the call? Like I always forget this, you like jump the line or whatever, the 180 rule, oh yeah, or whatever. You know, like we used to pounce on that shit in film school because we like if we learn that it was a thing.
SPEAKER_03:I hate that's how I can that's how you can find the green person on set, is if they're like Well, you jump in the 180, you're jumping the line. Yeah, well, it oh my god, dude. Like it's funny too, because sometimes it'll be this is for work, like in my experience. Like we'll be in a production meeting about something, and they'll be like, Oh, well, you could that's the 180 rule, and it's like it's like how like you know, this is somebody who's literally like, Oh, I've been doing this forever. Yeah, and it's like I've been doing and it's like just really bring up the fucking 180 rule, like you're trying to slide that in there is I don't know, dude. Yeah, that's that it gets me every time.
SPEAKER_01:I just I'm like I know Jesus and then in that scene, he you know, he jumps the he breaks the one eight he jumps the line on purpose to create evoke a feeling and all that, and obviously, you know, you have to learn the rules to be able to break them and all that kind of stuff, but um but yeah, I I think uh you know uh 180 rule yeah the 180 guideline. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um well I mean, yeah, and I mean direct like directors have been jumped, like I mean that's a very well known as you'll jump the line or you'll break the line. You know, uh the climax of a beat or you know, you know, a dramatic sequence, you jump the line. It's like things have changed officially now. That shit is just echoed though in every YouTube video. Absolutely. Yeah, everybody does.
SPEAKER_01:But just to wrap up the point, you know, I do think that that there just is sort of like a larger sense of isolation and self-I don't want to say self-centered because that's more psychological. I mean sort of like self self-focused or sort of self. What I don't know, I cannot think of what the best word is. It's not self-absorbed, feedback. It's sort of just like alone, maybe. Yeah. Alone together, yeah, if to be corny. Um, just just our existence, you know. I I I gravitate to these photos of people in sort of public or private places like a museum or whatever, and like they're with their kids or their family or their friends or whatever, and like the everyone's on their phone. And this is not me deriding phones, it's sort of just like our you know, you you go out with a bunch of people to you know be together to talk to whatever, you know, yeah, we gotta check our phones, you gotta see if our wife texted us, you gotta whatever. But it's like I'm like, I'm like observing people together for sustained periods of time being in this sort of isolation. Yeah. Um, and whether it's their anxiety they're trying to assuage, or it's um you gotta check, you know, what my subscriber count is, or you know, or like a neurotic. Yeah, yeah. Or just just, you know, it's it's sort of like uh like even at a concert, you know, everybody filming the concert by themselves. It's sort of like my personal needs is of paramount importance, and I'm going to ignore this communal experience or this collaborative experience or this togetherness before that.
SPEAKER_03:Well, we were like in office today for a bit, and everybody's just on their computer in the same room together. And I had to, I just got up and left. I was like, I'm not doing this, this is ridiculous. Yeah, like this is insane. This is dystopian. I actually like everybody's I know. I was like, this is creeping me the floor. Like, I gotta leave.
SPEAKER_01:Well, when it's under the umbrella of mandatory in office day for what? Yeah, this is what it's for? Yeah. Everybody just like leadership just feels better that we're all on our computers in the same area.
SPEAKER_03:It was like we we do have like I just got up and left and went and you know, we did other things. Like we have the freedom to kind of go and operate, right? Do work on whatever you need to work on. But yeah, there is like this it starts out where it's just everybody's just yeah, and I it was I mean, it was creepy. I had a feeling of like this is dystopian.
SPEAKER_01:Well, when you're in an office setting like that, you have the bird's eye view of the cubicles, you know, it is it's just odd. Like we're all just we're all working toward the same thing, make the company this or do this outcome, this mission, and we're just whatever. And that's I think why I take these photos. Um, and these aren't photos I share publicly. I'm not like making an Instagram story like this guy's ignoring his kid because he's checking his Facebook. Um, but it's more of a just something that fascinates me that you're sort of in your cubicle in the world, in the out in, yeah, you know, like at a park or at an art museum, and you're just like and don't get me wrong, someone could photograph me and catch me in a moment where for seven minutes I'm on my phone when I'm out with people or whatever. I'm I'm not like Mr. Don't yeah, my phone never comes out of my pocket when I'm out in the world, but uh No, it is just weird.
SPEAKER_03:It is I don't check it at the movies, I don't know. There's something about it where it's it's somehow the most isolating behavior that somebody could do is just being in their own digital space, right? Like you know, when people talk about oh the everybody's walking around with like goggles that they can see that like oh that's so dystopian. Yeah, there is something about the idea of like you're in a different world in the world, yes, that is just not and and you know what's different about like that and reading a book because technically you're in a different world, but it's in your head, so this is just making that more visible.
SPEAKER_01:Um well, and and here's another perfect example of that sort of self-centeredness or self-focus. We sit down every night in the fall and watch Roseanne. Like our little marker is what do we do? Do is it October 1st or I forget what our marker was? Are you guys running it right now? Yeah, so every fall, and you know, the kids are old enough now that they can they can follow along, and we start with season one and just go through it as far as we can, you know, into probably Christmas time, you know. We kind of trail off after season five because we don't love it as much after season five. Yeah. But if I had my choice personally, like if like if I was on my own and wanted to watch something, I would not watch this. Yeah, but I recognize that we want to have this shared experience. I certainly enjoy it. It's gonna mean something for the kids for the rest of their life. But because it's not my ultimate preference, if I was on my own, yeah, I feel the pull to check my phone for things that are important to me and sort of how I am perceived in the world. Did I get any comments on a YouTube video? Um, did anybody buy my shit on Depop? Um did, you know, is there any emails about a sponsorship thing?
SPEAKER_03:Or you know what it's it's very checking that that number, yeah, that line, yeah, that progress.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And it's you know, it's okay, you know, well, I'm running a business here, I gotta check this, you know what I mean? All this dumb shit like rationalization, but it's like I am like seeking validation from what that you know what I mean? Like it's all this sort of self-focused stuff that um that you're long that that you're that you're drawn to.
SPEAKER_03:And you're giving yourself an excuse because you're like that well, this benefits the whole family. Like this is good for all of us. Like I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_01:And so then it makes you sort of, you know, because because watching something together and like engaging with the content and and having your energy shared with the other people in the room, whether it's laughing at the same time or like, I forgot that, or making a comment. I love this part, you know, whatever. When you're half your brain, a quarter of your brain, three quarters is like looking at the dark the dark rectangle on the armrest, you're not in, you're not there.
SPEAKER_03:Well, it's so interesting. Um, like I I'm really I'm really one thing that I I you know we love our apartment. Yeah. Um and you know I love your apartment. Yeah, I mean it's you know, we but eventually I wanna when when we do get a house, like I'm I'm excited to have a room for just like watching I watch a lot of movies in there and we've got the projector and sometimes we'll run that, but it's just too accessible to everything. Yeah, so it's like even like you talked about looking at the dark rectangle in the corner, you might not even be engaging with it, it's just there and it's taking up mind shape. That's right.
SPEAKER_01:And I can hear the siren song.
SPEAKER_03:I'm a big believer in just separate, like like I want to room where it is. Just a projector and some chairs and like put it in a Ferry cage. Like, you know, block the Wi-Fi. Like, I don't know. Yeah. Um, and and yeah, you know, when you're it's like when okay, when I'm down here, I'm watching whatever I'm watching. Yep. And it's like, you know, for you see you hear this with uh writing all the writers all the time. It's like they'll they'll rent a space and it's just a room with a table. And it's like, well, when I'm in here, you know, the phone's in the car and I'm just writing. Yep. I can have coffee and my computer or whatever.
SPEAKER_01:Like well, that's the part of the typewriter. Yeah, part of the poll, you know, toward the typewriter or um, you know, my iBook G4 and writing on that, you know, yeah, sure, my phone's in my pocket or it's over on the desk. And that's the other thing, too, is you know, again, the creative act is very self, it's about what you're making. Yeah. And so I don't feel the pull. I I am annoyed by the phone.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But when I'm in a communal activity in certain situations, they can break you out of that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Sometimes it's just like it's it's have you ever been on a set where they where they no phones? This is something I heard about. I didn't know this was really a thing.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I know like they talk about that with Nolan and all that, you know, and for like capture reasons, I think, right? It's that's more of like don't I thought or is it I might be misremembering, but I thought the whole Nolan thing, it wasn't about him just not having a cell phone, but it was like no phones on set just because it's it just I don't even mean like um you know the concern is that people are on them because that certainly is a thing, and obviously you know, secrecy is another thing, but just if your phone's around, you you're the you're gonna hear it calling you.
SPEAKER_03:Well, so this is I didn't know it was an old thing, yeah, which would make sense, and then I'm sure other people I mean he's pretty influential. And um yeah, I didn't know this was a thing. Yeah, and I've heard this happening more and more in productions, and I'm like, I kind of love that. Like that's kind of the I think and you you certainly might have people that are like, oh like I'm an adult, like if there's an emergency, uh it's like it's like okay, then bye. Like I'll get we'll replace you. Like, sorry. Um, because I kind of love it. I because I think you're absolutely right. Um, if it's if it's even in the vicinity, if it's possible taking mind share, and so put that thing in a plastic bag, put that thing in a bin. Yeah, you know, it's like, well, I need my phone in my pocket. It's like put it in the car, yeah. Like, you know, take a cigarette break, yeah, go check it if you need to for a second, out there, and then when you come back in here, you leave it. I I yeah, I I so I I I don't know why that came to mind, but you were talking about and I was just like, I did I didn't know that was a thing until probably a week or two ago. And I was like, wow, that's a great idea. Yeah, that is a also that's like crazy that that's the spot we're at. We've gone so fast.
SPEAKER_01:I honestly it makes me wish like I had this idea. I was like, you know, it'd be cool if there was a phone where like and for people listening, I'm holding my phone to sort of quasi-demonstrate this, but I'm like, I wish there was a way to have a phone, and like there's an eject button, and a little phone comes out. That all it is like a minifine. It's a minif and receive calls. Yeah. And for me, that way you know that way if Aaron needs to call me, I have that connection. Yeah. Um, you know, you could argue that the watch is that when you have cellular activated, but you can get notifications on that thing. You can get notifications. I can't like obviously post to Instagram or check my Facebook feed or whatever, but you know, you can you can you could text or call basically. Yeah. Uh or you know, I don't know, like get fitness metrics or activity, you know, whatever.
SPEAKER_03:But like if you could if you like instead of having the massive camera, yeah. If it was just like, you know, the new camera's like that big, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:On the new 14 or whatever. Right. So what if that instead of being a camera, was just like you just pull it off? Yeah, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_01:And even if it's a this little screen, you know, it's it's it's I can enter a number, I can, I don't know, hold it to my ear, whatever I need to do to like to deal with it. There's part of me that's like, man, there would be I I really honestly think there would be a lot of situations where I would purposely choose to take the the little phone, yeah, and just leave the smartphone at home. Yeah. Cause for me, I'm like, I feel like I have to either, you know, the other option is like I just go get some flip phone with a different number, and eight people have that number.
SPEAKER_03:Anybody that you know, like yeah, you know, wife, kids, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I just take that one. That's a reasonable people do that too. And I would have to pay for the separate line, you know. I want it to not cost anything extra. I just want it to be a little thing. Or if it's like a little, a little, like a, like a little iPod nano looking thing, you know, and it's it's it has the same.
SPEAKER_03:I guess technically you could take like your SIM card out and swap them. Yeah. But that is a little bit of a pain. Yeah. I gotta take the case off. I gotta it's funny, they kind of do have the technology with the nano. Yeah. Like just put a nano on the back of the something iPhone. You know, like that would be really I would really love that. Or sell it separately. Yeah. Where it's like, hey, you can sync your nano to your iCloud and like it'll split sim. I there would be security concerns there, but yeah, something. But something that lets you lets you have like maybe it has to touch and you have to give it access every time. So it's like you yeah, you just touch it and you're like, make this my phone, and then I'm sure there's something software-wise that Apple could figure out.
SPEAKER_01:But I would like I you know, you know, I don't know if they could resist letting it have texting. Like, I don't want it to have anything but phone calls. Yeah. I don't want it to like play music, I don't want any capabilities at all other than if it had phone calls.
SPEAKER_03:I think a lot of people would just only use that for 90% of the time.
SPEAKER_01:The problem is I feel like with texting, it would start to defeat the purpose.
SPEAKER_03:Um, I mean, I don't know. I don't think texting really personally. I mean I don't text a lot. I don't text a lot.
SPEAKER_01:I feel like like if I could, I'd think about it. Like, oh, I should text whatever. And I know that phone can text.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, it can, and the voice of text on this thing is amazing. Yeah. I mean, I don't I don't think it's ever been a like I'm never like, oh man, I want to text. Yeah. Well, maybe that's just me though.
SPEAKER_01:Like I've never been a But don't you ever feel like being able to receive kind of like unimportant texts is a thing?
SPEAKER_03:Well, also though, but you kind of reprogram everybody in your life over time to where you just don't get a lot of unimportant text. I and I know that's talk, I'm not talking about like, but like, I mean, legitimately, I think most people in my life, if they're gonna send me a meme or like a link or something, they send it to my iCloud. Right.
SPEAKER_01:And that's at home.
SPEAKER_03:So like or if and it's like if you need to contact me, you'll call me. And like even you do this, and I don't even think it was it's conscious. I think it's just over time that's just you're like, oh, this is kind of like you'll if you're sending me a link or we're just like bullshitting, right? So it'll go to the iCloud and it's like it's there for me when I get home.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:Or group text or whatever. And it's like if they're but if they're if you need something or if we're meeting up in public or something, then you just kind of know to go. Yep. Text the number or call. Yep. So I mean, yeah, I and I feel like most people in my life are kind of like that at this point.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So but I mean, yeah, I get it. It's it's I I can't sit here and be like this is the solution because it's just it's difficult, it's way more difficult to for a lot of people. At this point, though, it's like easier for me because I've just been I've had this thing for like two years right now.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, and I personally don't ever made in my life, by the way. Like, and I personally don't I mean, probably the YouTube aspect maybe is probably the the bigger um sort of and I mean YouTube not like to check metrics, although that might be something that draws me to the phone, but it's a little bit more like oh, I have an audience, so I have to like connect with them when I'm when I haven't put it in the phone.
SPEAKER_03:I wish a video to see you try a flip phone for a like a month. Oh yeah, like just as like a personal experiment.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I I have thought numerous times about seeing how much it would cost to just have a separate number, yeah, a separate number flip phone, and I can just look at my contacts and be like, all right, my mom needs to have the number, Alex does, Aaron does, you know, like give it to the kids. Five people, yeah. Five people have that number. Yeah. My sister, my brother, maybe, you know, and um, and then when I would just want to go out and do something, go to a movie with you, I don't need to have my yeah, my shit.
SPEAKER_03:Like, I don't need to put your contacts in there. So if you need to reach out to somebody, hey, this is Matt.
SPEAKER_01:I could tell them, you know, add this number to my contact card so like if I call you, you know it's me, it's not some random thing. Yeah. To just to just see what it's like to have experiences out in the world where yeah, you're just you're just more wholly present, whether it's a photography excursion or uh even like thrifting or uh going to a movie or whatever. Like I'm just like you know, like everybody's gonna survive if I don't post a photo, if I don't put up an Instagram story. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Like they're gonna be all right. I see, I have this I mean it'll never happen because I mean it might, but I don't think it will. But at this point, it's you you talked a couple of weeks ago about the AI just single purpose computer. Yeah. Where it's just a chat interface. And I'm like, you could there like it would absolutely somebody could do this right now, and um you could just have a number. Like remember Cha Cha or those like ask, ask like a movie phone, yeah, things like services like that where you call and where is this movie or da-da-da-da. Cha cha cha cha cha text in a question and someone gets back to you. Um you could just do that with AI, and you get your own personal assistant that's linked to your chat account, and you can call it and it brings up the voice interface. Hey, I've got a question. What is uh, you know, I'm looking for a place to eat um here. What is, and then you you're you have a flip phone and you know, maybe you have GPS weather and you know, whatever. And it's it's usually a very rudimentary flip phone. Yep. And then yeah, you have literally the world of information at your fingertips. Hey, I just want to bounce an idea off you, even like even as bizarre as that. I'm like that that's super possible.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_03:And um I mean, yeah, it it's more it's more difficult to execute in execution because of some of the technical because I I literally looked at it, I was like, can I just do this? Can I just like make my own little like link it to Chat GPT or something? Yep, but yeah, I mean you text it and it like texts the model and then it gets back to you with whatever the answer is, like that could work. I don't know. I just I'm like that that seems like the perfect integration of technology and not technology, right?
SPEAKER_01:Like technology and detachment from technology, and that's kind of that device you were talking about.
SPEAKER_03:Like, yeah, you know, we already have like this thing that can communicate, and like obviously this this is not the best form factor. Like, there are some like beautiful like the punked phone is beautiful. So, like get that, make the text experience better, yep. And you know, and then have it where you can call AI, yeah, or whatever. And I think I how that's the best version of the thing. It's like you don't have all this extra shit that is just gonna be a parasite to your functionality and attention, and yeah, you have access to any information you could ever need. Yep.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, these are interesting ideas for having more power to choose, you know, like that like Apple would be like, well, there's focus there's focus modes. You can program a bunch of focus modes to this or that or whatever. And I'm like, it's just not enough. Like I just want to make it. No, it's it's like it's like this is the problem.
SPEAKER_03:Like you're not gonna like that's that's even though even though that's that's like my house is on fire, so I put on a fireproof suit. Yeah. It's like I just want it's like you're not gonna get burned if you put this on. It's like, yeah, but my house is on fire.
SPEAKER_01:Like I I just want more, I don't know, more more yeah, more choice in how I carry technology with me at a given time. And even with like the little slide-out phone, you know, like I want this in the truck with me because maybe I do want to stream music or I want the turn by turn, but when I get out, yeah, I can pop out the little thing that literally can only, you know, or you know, your AI thing, you know, is interesting. You know, at least for me right now, I'm like make and receive calls. That's it. Yeah, no texting, just calls.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Uh and and and maybe there's options. Maybe like there's a there's versions of it where it's like the little dumb phone that slides out, it only texts and calls. There's an option where it can text, there's an option where it can do an AI thing, you know, whatever. But I I get to leave my truck and be sort of free of any possibility of doing anything but making or receiving phone calls.
SPEAKER_03:I like how Apple keeps making like some new stupid version of the iPhone. Yeah. Uh and they're like, oh, there's four versions or there's three versions. Like I'd be interested if they just stopped with like the bullshit new model with the Kevin Hart commercials, and if they just made a fucking dumb phone, yeah, and then their flagship model.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Like, okay, get your bullshit out of the way and then like make a dumb phone. Try to just try to do something that's a little different. Yep. Like we know there's a market for Nokia is a thriving company in 2025 because of it.
SPEAKER_01:The problem is that the integration, you know, of hardware and services for Apple is so strong that that piece of technology that they would, you know, you would buy and pay for it's it's disconnected from iCloud.
SPEAKER_03:It's just, you know, it's yeah, but make the original iPhone. Just make an iPhone without the app store. And they're like, why would you ever do that? Right. Like I understand that. But it's like, it's like, but why not? Yeah. Or like make a like, you know, maybe there's a version of iOS that you can choose to have that doesn't have the app store. And it is literally just the iPhone.
SPEAKER_01:And then they, you know, they just see their I'm not saying I agree with that. They see their revenue plummet because there's a lot, there's enough people that would choose that. Yeah. I we I was just talking about about the the original.
SPEAKER_03:But it's it's it's it's again, it goes back to that like the innovators' dilemma. It's like, okay, then ignore that, and somebody else is good, they're just gonna like it's a trend. And it's you know, there's gonna there's a lot of people that are buying dumb phones that are gonna be back in a smartphone in five months. There's a lot of people also buying dumb phones that will never buy another smartphone for the rest of their life, yeah. And so why not have that segment of customer as well? And it's only gonna get more like you ask, I I I think if you asked a hundred people, 55 of them, 60 of them would probably be like, I fucking hate my phone. I hate social media, I hate my phone, I hate my daily experience with all this bullshit. Yeah, and I just can't get out, like they're trapped anyways. It's Stockholm Syndrome. Yeah. But just habit. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Like I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:No, I I I'm with you. Uh I like how we just circle back to this kind of dumb technology conversation every time.
SPEAKER_01:But well, but it relates to the collaboration thing because I think you know, when you have you don't have the temptress with you when you're with people, you're going to have it's a little bit of a stretch, but a sort of collaborative communal experience, more likely.
SPEAKER_03:Well, yeah, it's I I don't know if I've I think I've talked about this on the show before, but we were in a bar in Key West um last year, I guess. And we're in this bar, and everybody's kind of on their phone. Yeah. And I'm like, man, this place is insane. Um, I think it's a green parrot. Um, I mean, like you've had like legends have played. There's like a Bob Dylan sign guitar on the wall. Like, I mean, it's crazy. It's the whole thing is just nostalgia all around it. Excuse me. And we're in there, and uh yeah, everybody's on their phone. There's like a couple people at the bar on their phone, and I'm just thinking, like, you know, I'll watch a movie from the 50s, and sure, it's like maybe dramatically heightened a little bit. Sure. But these people are at bars and they're like singing and getting into like I mean, yeah, maybe getting into physical brawls and things like that is not the best thing, but there's just an energy because they're relying on that collaboration with the others to get something out of the experience. Yeah, whereas now you can just rely on this to get something out of the experience. Yeah, like, oh, this is like it's not fun to just sit somewhere.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So eventually you're gonna be bored enough to be like, what's your story, guy? Absolutely. What's your story? Like, or you know, okay, this band is I'm gonna get up and dance, or I'm gonna go talk to the bartender, or I'm gonna go play pinball, or like, you know, or or to um just open yourself to possibilities.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Or for um a movement to happen because you go see a band, and because you're there and present, everybody is, you're exchanging the energy, you're feeling the vibes, you're getting caught up in it. Um, and then that experience makes you then tell other people about it that they go see the show. You gotta come with me next time, or you gotta, yeah, you gotta go see this. Things spread, or you know, uh uh, you know, uh an art exhibit, a photo gallery, um, you know, uh whatever it is.
SPEAKER_03:Um isn't it ironic too that this was supposed to be like the liberator of move, like it was supposed to make movements more possible?
SPEAKER_01:Right. Well, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Like now we're all connected, like now we can do all of these things. There's nothing stopping us. Well, and I think honestly probably done the opposite.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think it's evolved that way. You know, it's I think there was probably some hope with some social media or the connectivity that our phone provides that it would, you know, foster, you know, a deeper connection. There's arguments that when there's unrest, you know, people communicate over Twitter, when governments suppress populations or control this or that, you know, there's certainly, you know, things like that going on. But when social media and all that just turned into, you know, um colonizing attention, it like just it was like, well, you know, we just need to sell ads, we need eyeballs on this, we need to keep people glued to the screen. So, you know, we've got to become the national inquirer and just have bullshit on here non-stop so people can't look away. It's gotta be 24-7 car accident, train wreck, drama, you know, whatever. And so it just it just becomes like this little you know, little uh little addiction thing, little dopamine hit, little whatever it does. Um because it's not about that utopian interconnection, collaboration, communal togetherness, you know, uh thing. Yeah. Yeah, it's just about it gets corrupted or co-opted or whatever. And this is you know, we've talked about this, you know, you're your YouTube channel, you you set out, you make it, you're all mission-based and conviction, then money comes in, and some people move toward, I'm just uh internet salesman and I'm gonna attract and extract. Let's go, let's rip, let's get those views, let's get these metrics up, let's do all this stuff. And it's this essentially the same thing, right? Well, uh, what content do I have to create to attract advertisers? You know, what did the village voice have to do to not lose their advertisers? Um and then eventually that you know they get shuddered. Um it's like it's just like the cycle of things, it seems, in in in technology or media or whatever. Um, maybe uh are we better off just accepting that, just accepting that, or um you know, hoping that something's gonna you know break the mold and and not succumb to this this cycle. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah, I do I feel like people have to you know act. Vote with their dollar like that. 100%, yeah. That's yeah, that's the term that comes to mind. But because nothing's gonna change. Like people are like, oh, I hate this. There's so many people that will just I hate this thing. This is the worst thing ever. Can they do it every day? Yeah, and I get I get that mentality, like I get the sometimes there's external forces that drive that behavior or whatever, but like at a certain point, you just like if if you're doing it every day, there's zero incentive for things to change, and complaining about something will not change it. Like, that's not how a market works.
SPEAKER_04:It had been a golden afternoon, and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer experience.
