Studio Sessions
Discussions about art and the creative process. New episodes every other week.
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Studio Sessions
60. Artists Make Ways of Seeing, Not Objects
We spend most of this episode exploring James Carse's "Finite and Infinite Games," working through the distinction between societies that defend boundaries and cultures that exist on horizons. Alex reads passages from the book about how patriotism requires enemies to function, why authentic movements like the Renaissance don't oppose anyone, and how any finite concept that tries to contain everything else is inherently evil. Matt reflects on his own pull toward rigid, binary thinking despite intellectually understanding the value of infinite play. We discuss how systems naturally protect themselves when threatened, why baseball feels different from other sports, and how finite games can exist beautifully within infinite contexts.
The conversation shifts to Werner Herzog's question about uranium storage: how do you warn people 40,000 years in the future when language, images, and cultural context will have completely dissolved? Even Shakespeare is barely comprehensible after a few hundred years. We discuss breeding blue cacti, building impossible structures, and why rituals might be the only way to transmit meaning across deep time—though even Stonehenge gets misread as alien intervention. This leads us into territory about synchronicity and consciousness: Alex's story about needing a bat at his lowest point and immediately stepping on one, Matt's impossible birthday coincidence, seeing Alexander Payne right after thinking about him. We talk about channeling, glimpses of God, and whether these moments suggest something beyond atoms randomly floating around. -Ai
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
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Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
It had been a golden afternoon, and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with someone's dipshits have to talk about the mat.
SPEAKER_02:Should we contextualize our brains are our pre-show? Brains are cooked.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, we had uh a big Indian food meal, maybe fortunately without rice, because it was left out of our DoorDash order. But we had a big dinner, and then we were like, we really need something sweet. So we went to Lola's uh here in Alex's neighborhood and got gelato and a cookie, and then I ate all that, and I actually feel pretty good. That makes one of us.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'm here.
SPEAKER_04:He's not sleeping because of me, he's sleeping because of the mood.
SPEAKER_02:I've been this is uh we've been looking forward to this. This is uh I like doing this at the end of the week. It's like a treat to kind of kick the weekend off. I agree. Um okay, so we have three topics that look at us doing our homework in a way kicking around.
SPEAKER_04:Well, the the yeah, mine the where this one came from showing you something and you pointed something out, and it was like, oh, that's interesting. Maybe we should talk about that.
SPEAKER_02:Which uh yeah, so and then we have another one that's just an interesting concept.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, interesting idea.
SPEAKER_02:That I ran it, I ran across, literally ran across. Um and then yeah, just some quotes from this this book. So maybe I'll just start reading through these. Sure. It's funny because we've already talked about the other two. Yep, but we can just work them in.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, we just touched on them and kind of said we should talk about this.
SPEAKER_02:I'm gonna turn this on. I'm a little cold, a little cold.
SPEAKER_04:Julie.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah, nice and toasty. Let's go. Okay. So this is a book that I've been reading in the sauna. It's my sauna read of the of the month. Um so this uh the book is um let's see, let me try to find where I'm so the book is finite and infinite games. And I don't know where I came across it. Who's it by? Um excuse me. I haven't been coughing and then now I'm like going for it. So it's James Karse. Okay. Um I think I got that right. Let's make sure. I mean, yeah, you'll definitely be able to find it. Um it's a vision of life is playing possibility. It's published in the early 90s, probably. Maybe, maybe even a little earlier. Um, and so this is talking about society's. So there's there's a lot of things. I've highlighted a lot, so I'll just kind of read. Here's what I did. I just kind of went back like 10 pages and I'll read everything I have highlighted, and then it'll kind of give an idea if you guys think that this is interesting, and you know, our Indian food chocolate cookie brains, you know, ruin it. It's definitely worth I think reading, but we'll just kind of go. Um and these are kind of scattered, and I'm I probably am not gonna give context, but I think through the accumulation you'll get enough context, and you know, you'll know if you want to read the book or not, and then also it'll give us some some things to talk about. Yeah. So I'm just gonna go with what I've highlighted. You'll also get a good idea of how my goofy highlighting brain works when I'm reading. Uh the prizes won by it, this is okay, the power in a society is guaranteed and enhanced by the power of a society. The prizes won by its citizens can be protected only if the society as a whole remains powerful in relation to other societies. Those who desire the permanence of their prizes will work to sustain the permanence of the whole. So, talking about possession as like a concept. Um it is in the interest of a society, therefore, to encourage competition within itself to establish the largest possible number of prizes for the holder of the prizes will be those most likely to defend the society as a whole against its competitors. Um and so it talks about society versus culture, whereas society is a finite concept, it's a concept that is like a society is a is a self-contained thing. And one of the kind of or the I guess principal thesis of the of the the essay or the other or the book is that anything that tr any like concept that tries to be act as a container for everything else is inherently evil. So like any finite concept that tries to act as a container for all things is inherently evil. Uh for like for a finite game to exist, it should exist within the context of an infinite, you know, infinite um sphere of possibilities or an infinite game.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:And there's more context on that at the beginning, but I'm not gonna, I'm not so I'm starting at like 35, 30, 34. There's just like differentiators in the I wouldn't call them chapters, but yeah. Okay. So um 35. Um culture, on the other hand, is an infinite game. Culture has no boundaries. Anyone can be a participant in a culture anywhere and at any time. Because a society maintains careful temporal limits, it understands its past as destiny. That is, its course of history lies beyond, lies between a definitive beginning, the founders of a society are always especially memorialized, and a definitive ending. The nature of its victory is repeatedly anticipated in official declarations, to each according to their need, from each according to their ability, for example. Because cultures as such can have no temporal limit. A culture understands its past not as a destiny, but as history, that is, as a narrative that has begun, but points always towards the endlessly open. Culture is an enterprise of mortals disdaining to protect themselves against surprise, living in the strength of their vision, they eschew power and make joyous play of boundaries. Deviancy, however, is the very essence of culture. Whoever merely follows the script, merely repeats the past, is culturally impoverished. Society has all the seriousness of immortal necessity. Culture resounds with the laughter of unexpected possibility. Society is abstract, culture concrete. And then I'm just skipping ahead a little. Whoever is unable to show a correspondence between wealth and the risk undergone to acquire it or talent spent in its acquisition will soon face a challenge over entitlement. So this is talking about possession within a society or a culture. Um what is at stake here for owners is not the amount of property as such, but its ability to draw an audience for whom it will be appropriately emblematic. That is, an audience who will see see it just as a compensation for the effort and skill used in acquiring it. After athletic contests in which major titles have been at stake, it is common for the audience to lift the winner to their shoulders, marching them about as if they were helpless, in the sharpest possible contrast to the physical skill and energy they have just displayed. Monarchs and divinities are often born on ceremonial transports. The very wealthy are driven in carriages or limousines. It is apparent to infinite players that wealth is not so much possessed as it is performed. And then uh skipping ahead a little bit. The Since culture is itself a poesis, all of the participants are poet poetai. Poetai P-O-I-E-T-A-I. So I think it's like the the root of poetic. I didn't look into it that much. Let's see, we can actually I can actually literally look this right now because I'm curious. Sorry for my uh my dullness here. Poesis, come on. Poesis. Somebody's just screaming a ghost right now. Losing it. So yeah, I couldn't find it in the in the built-in dictionary, which is why I didn't go to look it up. You want to look it up real quick? P O I E S I S. Little Little Chad G B T I E S I S. I think it's pronounced poiesis. Stupid autocorrect. P-O-I-E-I turned that thing off a long time ago.
SPEAKER_04:It helps me more than it hurts me.
SPEAKER_02:P-O-I? Yep. E-S-I-S. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Poi poiesis. Poiesis. Poiesis. It's a Greek word meaning to bring something into being that did not exist before.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, like a like poetic or it's the root of the English word poetry. Okay, yeah. So that was that was the assumption I made, but it's nice to verify that. Since a culture is itself a poiesis, all of its participants are poetai. Inventors, makers, artists, storytellers, mythologists. They are, however, makers of actualities. They are not, however, makers of actualities, but makers of possibilities. The creativity of culture has no outcome, no conclusion. It does not result in artworks, artifacts, products. Creativity is a continuity that engenders itself in others. Artists do not create objects, but create a way of objects. Since art is never possession, and always possibly, nothing and always possibility, pardon, nothing possessed can have the status of art. If art cannot become property, property is never art as property. Artists cannot be trained. One does not become an artist by acquiring certain skills or techniques, though one can use a number, use any number of skills and techniques and artistic activity. The creative is found in anyone who is prepared for surprise. Such a person cannot go to school to be an artist, but can only go to school as an artist. That's one thing I'm excited to have kids and read out loud to get better at. So I have to go back a lot. It's probably not fun to listen to. So no sooner did the Renaissance, this is this is the thing that I was that was most interesting to me. Um no sooner did the Renaissance begin than it began to change. Indeed, the Renaissance was not something apart from its change, it was itself a certain persistent and congruent evolution. A society is defined by its boundaries, a culture is defined by its horizons. So that restates, I think we restated that from earlier, but yeah, defined by its boundaries, a culture is defined by its horizon. Since there can be no prizes without a society, no society without opponents. So this gets into the concept of patriotism. And so reading this, like this isn't a very like this is gonna sound politically uh potent, especially in like the current cultural context. Yeah, that hasn't been my experience. I'm about halfway through the book. Uh just so as like a I mean, you know, I'm like hyper sensitive to anything that like so that hasn't been my experience. Obviously, I'm taking like really small snippets and reading it. So if that's like the initial thing is, oh, this book is not worth reading because uh I think Matt can attest, I probably wouldn't continue to read it if that was the case. Um but and obviously, yeah, I I I don't know. Um that might not age well. I haven't finished it yet. So um, since there can be no prizes without a society, no society without opponents, patriots must create enemies before we can require protection from them. This is another interesting thing, too. Of the cultural context of this at the current moment is different. Like it reading this detached, it does just feel like a commentary on the idea of patriotism or like a nationalism full like a concept. So um before we can require protection from them. Patriots can flourish only where boundaries are well-defined, hostile, and dangerous. The spirit of patriotism is therefore characteristically associated with the military or other modes of international conflict. Because patriotism is the desire to contain all other finite games within itself, that is, to embrace all horizons within a single boundary, it is inherently evil. Every moment of an infinite game, therefore, presents a new vision, a new range of possibilities. The Renaissance, the Renaissance, like all genuine cultural phenomena, was not an effort to promote one or another vision. It was an effort to find visions that promise still more visions. Who lives horizontally is never somewhere but always in passage. Any culture that continues to influence our vision continues to grow in the very exercise of that influence. Properly speaking, the Renaissance is not a period, but a people. Moreover, a people without a boundary and therefore without an enemy. The Renaissance on the Renaissance is not against anyone. Whoever is not of the Renaissance cannot go out to oppose it. They will find only an invitation to join the people it is. I think that's a really interesting concept of um almost like a litmus test for the authenticity of an idea. Is it opposed? Because if it is in opposition to something directly, then it's not like that almost it fails that that litmus test of its authenticity as a as a concept or as something that's seeking a horizon. It fails that finite versus infinite test. That's something I've kind of been thinking about since I read that. A people as a people has nothing to defend, in the same way a people has nothing and no one to attack. One cannot be free by opposing another. My freedom does not depend on your loss of freedom. On the contrary, since freedom is never freedom from society, but freedom for it, my freedom inherently affirms yours. A people has no enemies. Just as the blowing, and then this is a Hegel quote, and I thought this was great. Um just as the blowing of the winds preserves the sea from the foulness, which would be the result of a prolonged calm, so also corruption in nations would be the product of a prolonged, let alone perpetual peace. And then infinite players do not rise to meet arms with arms, instead, they make use of laughter, vision, and surprise to engage the state and put its boundaries back into play. What will undo any boundary is the awareness that it is our vision and not what we are viewing that is limited. That's that's as far as I say that one last one again. Infinite players do not rise to meet arms with arms. Instead, they make use of laughter, vision, and surprise to engage the state and put its boundaries back into play. What will undo any boundary is the awareness that it is our vision and not what we are viewing that is limited. I think that's uh yeah, really beautiful. Observation. So I don't know. Um immediate thoughts. We don't have to, you know.
SPEAKER_04:Well, the the biggest thing is the f you know, the biggest thing takeaway from me is just the. I'm gonna get you a copy of this, by the way.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, because I'm reading it. I thought I was like, oh, I think Matt will enjoy this.
SPEAKER_04:Uh you know, and we've talked about this in the pat uh in the past, but it's just that sort of um the difference between a very uh binary way of thinking, you know, rigid. You know, there's borders on either side, uh, right and wrong, black and white, um, you know, the literally the the um the all colors and the absence of color. Um and there's there's there's that rid rigidity to it. And I think in a past episode we talked about things being on a gradient, um uh a spectrum. And that's what I think about with the infinite games, is these things, you know, don't have these uh hard rules, binary thinking, right, wrong, black, white. Um, and it doesn't seek to manufacture them. It seeks to just continue to expand and, like you said, push push those boundaries and remain in in an infinite state. Um so that is an incredibly smart, elegant, uh poetic way of articulating for me just that simple idea that often divides a lot of us, those of us who are rigid, black and white, right and wrong, my way or the highway, all of that.
SPEAKER_02:And then other people that are just sort of like, you know, uh every encounter is just infinite possibility.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, or just they're just sort of like, well, I'm not gonna try to define this necessarily necessarily. I'm just gonna try to have the most awareness I can of what it is. Yeah. Um, you know, the people that I have a lot of conflict with, um, not that there's a lot, but they tend to be people that, you know, um think in very rigid and structured ways. Again, right or wrong, black, white, all that, binary. Um and, you know, uh without getting into, you know, therapy or anything, something that I, you know, really try to do. Yeah, we've never done therapy on that. What I really try to do just in my life after my mind being broken out of rigid thinking through going, imagine that, art school, um, acting school, was to seek that information, that awareness um of myself to uh to not have everything so so defined. At the same time, and I'll wrap up, but at the same time, I keep trying to troubleshoot my own issues, my own personality flaws, and trying to like define the molecular makeup of who I am. So I go, ah, I see the definition of who I am, and now I can, I don't know, move on, be at peace, understand my nature. Right for the rest of your life to overcome that, yeah. Yeah. So, so um, so you know, um, that's interesting. And in some of those things that bother me about myself, it's like you seek this molecular construct so you can remove the the molecules that you don't like, whether it's um, you know, having a temper or being condescending or um being rigid in how you think, thinking things in binary ways, you know, um uh not enough discipline, you know, like I want to take all that stuff and remove it from the molecular construct and redefine myself into something that is more to my liking, which then creates more infinite possibilities because I'm not being held back by these things that I think are that I've defined as bad, good or bad. Uh that's a you know so so it's interesting that in intellectually.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you're creating these definitions. Right.
SPEAKER_04:And understanding intellectually the benefits of more of uh being on the infinite side of things than the finite side of things, you still gravitate towards finite thoughts.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. It's almost like everything around us feeds in that in in that sense, especially, I mean, maybe this is more like our Western experience, I'm sure. Like we have it is like we actually do have listeners that are in, I think we have every continent, which is not to say we have representation in like all yeah, but I would be interested in like how some of these structures maybe feel different from like obviously we have grown up in the United States of America, we've lived here our entire lives, and so like that one, there's like a security in uh in a finite state, right? There's like a yeah there's an experience and a and a secure experience and a almost a you know comforted experience or um entitled experience to have that. So yeah, I mean it's like obviously we're gonna have one very rigid and maybe specific way of looking at the world or our world or our yeah, I would be curious as to like hearing out like outside of our very fine night existence. But um just really quick, I uh when you were when you were talking about that, and um especially at the beginning, I was reading this. Um it's like the red pine, I think it's red pine. I don't don't know for sure, but I think that would get you. And it's uh it's his translation of the the Dao Ta Ching. Um and it's like the preface, so it's just his thoughts. And I thought it was like a little bit esoteric. Um maybe I just wasn't on the plane of thought that he was when writing it, yeah. Um, which obviously like that's kind of something that you can revisit over time, so that might change. But he talked about darkness versus light and like the the like the constant um balance of darkness and light, and how like there was like there's this concept of like choose to exist in the darkness, um, because and I don't think like darkness is as easily defined as like good or bad as like the the the natural I maybe um the natural uh association would would lead. But like always exist in the darkness because then there's always the possibility of light, whereas if you exist in the light, the only possibility is the darkness. Right. I thought that was just an interesting idea. Uh and for some reason when you were kind of going into your your thoughts, um uh that it sounded like there's they're either kind of connected or maybe more connected than oh yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah, and I think in hearing you read all that stuff too, there was sort of um I me casting uh a bit of a negative association with the finite and societal construct rather than the infinite and the more artistic creative um uh infinite construct. But I, you know, I'm sort of like applying that meaning to it based on there's one that I prefer over the other. Yeah. But I think to think that there's some sort of utopian construct where the one that you like is exists all on its own.
SPEAKER_02:Goes against the very idea.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. And that that you know, that's a difficult thing to um embrace when you're sort of emboldened with a strong sense of purpose to try to achieve some ideal state, uh like like me. I'm gonna eradicate these negative aspects of who I am to reach this sort of like state of um not perfection and I'm transcendence in this world. Transcendence, you know, like sort of this like state of of varied flawlessness, you know, like you're on the opposite side of flawlessness and it varies in sort of like its intensity, but you're not doing anything wrong. You're not hurting anyone, you're not um you're not um yeah, you're not causing any sort of pain or negativity or whatever towards the environment or other people. You know, I get anxiety about recycling and throwing stuff out. I saw somebody on a video like drop a wrapper that I was like, ah, you know, like you wanna you want everything to have this positivity to it. And then I mean, that's just it's sort of just denying the nature of existence and and I would say uh the the nature of humanity. And it's it's like every process has its has its but I also think we're we're kind of in this state, and I don't want to go down this rabbit hole, but we're in this sort of state of like this multi-generational awareness of self-help and personal growth and with the media and social media and cancel culture and all of these things going around. There's like this pressure to do everything really well. I think about that a lot when I'm out and I hear a parent be like really stern with their kid. And I immediately I'm like, man, you're you're a real like, I don't know if that's the best way to handle this situation.
SPEAKER_02:And um Well it's funny, everybody's kind of playing to their idea of that, you know, that um uh what did you just call it? You it's like not a transcendent, but you said like uh but everybody has their own conception of that in their in their reality, right? And so it's like we're all playing to our idea of that and then expecting other people, like expecting that context to be universal. Right. When like the context itself is inherently non-universal. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_04:It's very very you could argue down to the micro in you know the individual perspective or the family, you know, it it it it it's uh the the Russian, you know, they're stacking Russian dolls or whatever.
SPEAKER_02:It's just a completely senseless task.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Senseless and that doesn't mean that you don't have some standards of behavior or standards of sort of right and wrong, both in a sort of legalistic way or a moral way, ethical way. But again, to have you s you just that carefulness that needs to be there to not just be so rigid and and and harsh about it. So then what that does is it's a it's a tool for creating those enemies. It's well, we feel this way, and you're either with us or you're against us, and I need to fabricate an enemy to not only increase my stature and my um my feelings about my point of view, yeah, but to turn you into the boogeyman that's gonna help me unite everyone else, you know, all that stuff.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it's like yeah, yeah. I mean, that's like, you know, finite game principle, yeah, you know, number one. Or I mean, even outside of the metaphor of just that book, that's like the principle of of building any kind of coalition or whatever or whatever movement. For like for some reason, that's our in our in our current perception of things, yeah, you f you identify the boogeyman. Right. You must have a boogeyman. You have to have, and yeah, I think it's so interesting because if you start to put a lot of the things that we put stock into or you know, quote unquote worship and in the world today, if you put it up to that litmus test of are you just trying to create an enemy, a lot of things fail. Yeah, and it's a really good way. To maybe reorient yourself to what's important or what is actually meaningful and what is more just manufactured or trying to drive some kind of emotional response. Yeah. But yeah, we can talk more about that. I mean, maybe we even, yeah, if you read it and have some thoughts. And I'm only about halfway through it.
SPEAKER_04:So well, when you were reading it, I just wanted to touch on this point that I wrote down when you were reading it, talking about finite and infinite games. There was uh Isn't this pen amazing, by the way? Pretty good. Just like the best pen. Th there was um I watched a documentary about like art and like art culture and um excuse me, the both sides of the spectrum, which is you know the artist and making the work, and then the art collector in a sense, owning it and possessing it. And the documentary really touched on the art being, you know, shared with the public and it's in a place where the public can access it and see it and experience it and um um experience it versus someone who's wealthy who has purchased that art and it's kept in a vault somewhere, um, away from light, away from the public, and the sort of injustice of that to a certain extent. And when you were talking about that, that was a very to me felt like a representation of at least my interpretation initially of that concept.
SPEAKER_02:Um I think there's even a quote in here where it's like um when we when we put art into a museum, you're not protecting the art from the public, but you're protecting the public from the art. Yeah. And it talks about like when uh when an art form or any kind of culture becomes powerful enough, and I wanna I just want to tread very lightly on that because again of cultural context, but when it becomes powerful enough to disrupt like a more system like systemic finite game, then it has to be um almost in corrupted internally, or like yeah, almost has to be um you know, think of dilution, like um, you know, it it has to be um governed or whatever, managed, governed, um castrated, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Gate kept, yeah. Uh uh you could argue sort of curated, but then I can also on the flip side be someone picking the winners and losers. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um no, it's it's just interesting. I mean, I I I thought of film when I when I read that and like how commercialized and just like toothless a lot of contemporary film has become, or like how we've just like given up on some of these like filmic concepts and ideas that were vibrant and untapped in the 20th century. And um, and I'm not saying like it was a massive conspiracy or anything like that, but it's like when something becomes a thread, it kind of is naturally and again, it's like I I want to be careful with the language I use because it can be contextualized in a very uh unintentional, like a way that I don't intend it, especially in in the modern um cultural context. But yeah, it's like when things become threatening, there's not like a collusion to stifle it. Yeah, it's it's just a natural pattern because it's like every that was the thing where it was like those who are invested in the state have a have an incentive to protect or those that are invested in this idea of of uh of a society are invested are invested in protecting that society.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And it's like that's you know, that it I think there's a there's a very agnostic like view on that. Like, is that a good or a bad thing? Obviously, it it kind of posits that in some cases, if that's trying to contain all infinite play, then it is a an an inherently evil thing. But yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Interesting. No, very interesting.
SPEAKER_02:I thought about like baseball too, because we just had baseball season finish up and I was like all of a world series. It it will like do you know, just thinking of like finite games as like a a beautiful thing in and of themselves. Like obviously baseball is not trying to contain all of but it is a very useful, like finite idea, you know, or just sport uh in general, sport as a as a um as a means of expressing that like pent up energy. It's it's almost a more useful f obviously it's a more useful function than war as a like a you know it it almost would would work, you know, you you would love to live in a world where sport was the um I don't even want to say like the proxy because that that like that that kind of implies the wars still still exist, but like sport as the like replacement, or I don't I don't know. My brain is at like 50% right now and it's aren't working, but yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Well, and not to go down a down a baseball rabbit hole, but something I've always found fascinating about baseball is the general perception that it's a perfect game. Um like the 90 feet, that 27 outs, um everybody has the same opportunity to win. There's no clock in baseball. Um pitch clock now, but yeah. Right. But there's no, you know, it's it's not like basketball and football or soccer where there's this container of time that says that that sort of can make you feel at the end of a football game like I know the who the better team is, and but and they didn't they didn't manage the same opportunities uh to win. That's what that's why they fixed the o or try to make the overtime rules better. And I don't want to get into the weeds too much, but there's something there's something really profound about baseball in that way. Yeah. Where when the game's over, there's a different acceptance of loss when your team loses. It it's it in ways makes it more than palatable, not so much more towards winning and losing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. It like it's not like every not every, but like especially modern sport is very heavily oriented towards winning. And obviously winning at baseball is like important. Yeah. But I mean, there's something about it. I'm sure you could ask fans of like I I don't know, like the what's a team that's been, you know, suffering in for decades. Like you think of like Cleveland or I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Uh I guess you could argue the Mariners, but even though they were in the playoffs this year.
SPEAKER_02:I guess they're yeah, they're relevant now more than ever, but the twins. Yeah. It's just it's just one of those things where the experience is valued. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:There you go.
SPEAKER_02:Um yeah, it it is an interesting. This is just slowly gonna morph into a baseball podcast, I think.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, we should do a baseball podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Just a little baseball podcast next year.
SPEAKER_04:Let's go for it.
SPEAKER_02:But anyways, I mean, yeah, we can continue to chew on those ideas or we can move into a different thing.
SPEAKER_04:No, we can move in, we can move into something else.
SPEAKER_02:Go dealer's choice here.
SPEAKER_04:We have a couple of things on the table. I would like though that I this idea just to wrap it up, the idea of finite and infinite games and this concept. It's such a good title, right?
SPEAKER_02:Because it just really just takes the imagination immediately.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. But I I you know, we have these recurring ideas and concepts that we bring up and we struggle with to varying degrees of intensity. Um, and I think identifying this concept, and obviously it's doing that for you as you read it, you're sort of seeing how it's connected to existence. But thinking of ways in future episodes and conversations, even between us away from the mic, how this these ideas relate back to that. Um, and and I'll certainly be able to contribute to that more once I read the book. But um I think I think that's what I love about presenting these things. It's just seems uh what was the the thing? It was something about like the hor like the horizon or moving the horizon.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's like an infinite horizon.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and that's what these books are. It's you know, you go, you just uh you just feel like these new uh frontiers are opening um with someone presenting these ideas or concepts. It's like I'm generally aware or subconsciously aware of the existence of this idea, but I've never articulated it. I've just felt it. Yeah. And then I read this and it puts this language to an idea, then I take that and run with it.
SPEAKER_02:It'll never the beauty of like new discovery will never cease to amaze me. Just every day, if you're open to it, there's some kind of something you've never considered.
SPEAKER_04:Which is why going back to the last episode, I'm, you know, really want to get back to taking in on the consumption side of things, getting back to regular reading, watching film, television to a certain degree, you know, scripted television or documentary television, not, you know, uh, because I've just gotten on a little bit of the hamster wheel of brainless, and I don't mean like stupid content, but just sort of like stuff that requires really no effort to consume, and then you just are like waiting for a hit of dopamine to stimulate you and then go to bed and then go to bed. Yeah. Um I don't like the idea of going, you know, watching this movie that's got a lot of lep depth to it and legs, like it sounds like work. I don't want to turn the turn the brain off. I don't want to. I'm kind of I've been working all day.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Like I don't know if that's good.
SPEAKER_02:And I think part of like in my in my view, because I'm the same way. Um I just have to like make room for it in the times I know my brain is open to to contend with these things. Yep. And then know that okay, there's like a finite, I guess. But yeah, there's like a finite amount of you know, energy that I have to put towards those things on on any given day. And you know, I it's not necessarily like a bad day or a lost day if I don't do that, but at the same time, you know, if I can take advantage of it, all the better. Yeah. I feel better. I I'm more excited. Our conversations are more just energized. Not that they're not energized anyways, but it's just like you know, though that is like sometimes I just want to have the repetitive conversation that I've had a hundred thousand times about something dumb.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Um, but then sometimes, yeah, you just want to have a vibrant exchange of ideas and you want that conversation to open new frontiers through sharing perspectives, or have you thought about it this way? Or well, what about this? Challenging an idea.
SPEAKER_02:Especially with the people like there's certain people in your life who you do have a special relationship with, and yeah, it's like that's where you want you want to be able to give that. Yeah. Absolutely. So so we have two other things that we can we can touch on. What do we dealer's choice here?
SPEAKER_04:Oh, I'm the dealer. Yeah. What was the uh what was the one that wasn't mine?
SPEAKER_02:Um the time like passing our language and images over time. Oh, yeah. Just an interesting kind of thought experiment.
SPEAKER_03:No, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Maybe we go to that last because that's more of just like a just a quick little like here's something to think about and chew. Chew on this. Yeah, chew on this. Maybe it'll also it's my favorite expression now. Uh chew on this. Well, just like let's let's chew on that, or like let's chew the fat. Like, I was on a I was on a plane a couple of weeks ago, and I had a conversation. One of those where you sit next to somebody and you end up talking for the entire flight.
SPEAKER_04:I've had a couple of those.
SPEAKER_02:And I don't even know if I like that, but it's happened a couple of times, and usually it's it's always a pleasant experience. The people are insanely nice and just like it's usually a pretty short flight, so it's not that bad. Yep. Um, for my just insane introversion. Right. Um, but no, I mean it's it's like a really pleasant experience, and you're you're really I also feel like there's a synchronicity to it. Like if if that happens, if somebody engages you and you have a conversation and there's no exchange, there's no expectation or like like I'm trying to take something. So there's something like a purity to it in that sense. And it but anyways, it was pleasant. It was a pleasant conversation, it lasted the whole flight.
SPEAKER_04:I will say about your introversion, I am always caught off guard with it because whenever I see you, you are like completely extroverted when it's just us. Yeah. You are excited, you know, chopping it up, talking, sharing ideas, like you are just Are you saying like I don't have introversion or no, no, in from my perspective, when the bulk of our time is spent alone, like one-on-one, yeah. Yeah, or Audrey's around, you know, very, very, very small circle. I only feel like I get extroverted Alex. So whenever we go out with other people, and especially if you don't know them well, I'm like caught off guard that you're so an introvert. I'm like, where's Alex? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't think about that every time, yeah, but I'm it completely throws me off because I'm like uh it's and it's not like um it's not like uh a negative thing, yeah, but I'm like, where's Alex? You know, like you know what I mean? Yeah, it's like I don't know how to manage it sometimes because it it's it's so foreign to me. That's funny. And I'm just and I'm just putting that together now.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I don't necessarily think like it's not an in intentional. No, gosh, no, yeah, no. I mean I think part of it too is just like I mean like you and I can just chop it up about anything and you know, we're very so for example, like you know, somebody came over the other day and was just hanging out, and like at the end, like there's yeah, somebody there who like I have more of a relationship like like you and I have, and they were there and it was just kind of like I by the end of that, I was like, you know, kind of doing like a postmortem on on the situation. I was just like literally they were leaving. I was like, Oh, I'm sorry, like I just dominated the whole, yeah. I apologize, like that was rude of me. Like, I wasn't providing like uh an like people don't just want to be dominated, yeah. Like, yeah, it sort of and I felt bad about that, and I'm like, this person probably thinks I'm a complete asshole because I just came and like I mean, dominant, like I'm dropping like obscure references, and like like they were probably like, oh, this guy is like a pretentious, like fucking asshole, yeah. And because I can see that, and like I think that like I might think that, yeah, and they don't know like you're like, oh, that's just Alex, and like there's not really like there's not like I think I'm speaking for myself, and obviously that I'm maybe I'm not a very good uh you know, I'm not a very good source because I obviously I might there might be a motivation for me to like hide something, but like you obviously have had plenty of interactions with me. You kind of know who I am. Yep, it's like that's just kind of how I am. Yeah, like I'm just I mean, I'm sure even the podcast audience, yeah, to an extent, I'm sure knows. Like I think I I'm more myself on this show than I probably am in those situations in public where I am more introverted. Yeah. From time to time.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, I'm sure I go in and out, but I always feel like it's a a combination of introversion when there's people that you know but you don't know them very well, you're sort of I don't want to say guarded, but you're just not as open to being out there.
SPEAKER_02:Part of it is just I don't want to like be offensive in the way that like, oh, this is a lot more than what this person wants to deal with at this time.
SPEAKER_04:That, yeah. And then I always feel too that you have sort of like a really strong bullshit meter, and that doesn't mean that the people that we spend time with um you know, have any kind of like inauthenticity or fakeness or whatever, but I I I feel like you get squirrely sometimes around um maybe people who are sort of consciously doing something for some result that just kind of feels I'm like always searching for subtext or like well, you know, it's kind of like that, like when we talked about peacocking, you know, just like sort of like name dropping or um, you know, just trying to like demonstrate to new people like I do cool shit, you know, and like just sort of like the the the bullshittiness of that, you know, like the the I don't know, the manufacturing.
SPEAKER_02:It reads to me like you're yeah, like you're reading a bad script or something. And it's like, oh, they're trying to work these details into the and I can see that you have a very strong into the dialogue.
SPEAKER_04:I probably get a pass sometimes when I do it because you know me so well. It's not that you don't know what's happening, but it just doesn't have that grading quality to it. Well, I mean, it's I mean, and I'm sure I do it too.
SPEAKER_02:Like everybody I think is I don't know, man. I I I feel like a lot of like I don't know. Uh but like I like I'm never gonna step up and be like, I don't do that. Yeah, yes, it is possible, certainly.
SPEAKER_04:If you do do it, it's so minimally that it's it's not uh not as noticeable. Whereas some others and and people who I really like, it feels like maybe there's some insecurity that creates more sort of demonstration of this or that, whatever. Um anyway.
SPEAKER_02:All of this to say that guy on the airplane used the expression chew the fat. Chew the fat. And he's like, he was an engineer and he's like, Yeah, so I'll call it my buddy. Or just and I was like, Hey, I got a problem I want to chew the fat with you on. Yeah. And he's like, so I gave him this problem and we discussed it for 30, 45 minutes, and then came up with a couple of ideas, and there you go. And I was like, You just changed my life.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:This is that's all I want to do is just call up a buddy, chew the fat. It was just so playful, you know, like here's an idea. And you know, there's no like again, it's not like a fixed outcome. Yeah. There's it there's an infinite array of potential solutions to this problem. Yeah. So he calls his buddy and they chew the fat. Yeah, which is just like the just it captures it in a very just it's just what a goofy use of language where you're like, yep. Yeah. And he's like, and we chewed the fat on it, came up with some ideas. Yeah. And I'm just like, that's my outlook on life. Like, I just want to like call up a buddy, throw out some ideas, chew the fat on them, and then move on with our lives.
SPEAKER_04:That's really what this podcast is. It's we chewed the fat. We just chew the fat that's the good title.
SPEAKER_02:Chew the fat. So yeah, just really cool expression.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. I mean, we chewed the fat all the time to where we said we should just record these and into a podcast. Yeah. And we are literally chewing the fat tonight.
SPEAKER_02:There's there's just something so Indian food beautiful about just like, yeah, chewed the fat.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. Something about that, you know. Just yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Like even, yeah, just the idea of, yeah, you're, you know, when you chew the fat, like you're just on the edges. You're just kind of playing with it. You don't, there's no, I don't know. I'm I've thought about this. I've actually thought about this conversation a hundred times since I had it. And it was just like, it's like it was a very good conversation. And the guy was amazing. And we talked about like parenthood, and obviously I'm not a parent, but he was just like, You have a fur baby. He he was, but you know, he was like, hey, like, you know, I was like, oh, like what's what's it like? You know, he just retired, his kids went off, and he kind of reminded me of my grandfather who passed pretty recently. Um, like just the same kind of outfit, similar vibe, similar, like like clear patriarch of the family, but in like a very not like in an aggressive way, or like in a hyper masculine. Yeah, in a hyper masculine way, exactly. And I don't, yeah, I don't know. Um, it was great conversation, and my biggest takeaway was chew the fat. And I'm like, that's the best.
SPEAKER_04:I have found that I have had those kinds of conversations with people that fit a patriarchal or matriarchal archetype for me. And I think it's so funny.
SPEAKER_02:Now I'm going back and I'm thinking about the people who I've had conversations with on planes, and it definitely fits that.
SPEAKER_04:And for me, it's a combination of living away from my mother, yeah, and my dad having been deceased for 10 plus years. Yeah. His birthday was yesterday. Was it? Yeah. Yeah. And I've even been like very conscious of that, whether it's applying a sort of patriarchal um role to my father-in-law, um, to the point where I have like thought about when he passes away and speaking at his funeral. Yeah. And sort of like that cliche of like, yeah, he was my dad after my dad passed away. Even though Tim and I don't do like a ton of stuff together, you know, we've gone golfing and gone to Colorado, but we haven't done anything like recently.
SPEAKER_02:It's like hyper important for you.
SPEAKER_04:It just, you just feel that I don't know, that patriarchal patriarchal connection. And then there's a touch of it with um another man named Tim who owns Canesville Collectibles. And I don't like go in there and chop it up with him because I um but I think that there is sort of like a, you know, he like there's there's like a there's there's there's a father-son dynamic, probably in the sense of just our age difference, right? Like it's just a young man and an older man. Yeah. And he'll ask me, Did you find anything today? Because I, you know, I'm always out treasure hunting, right? And and so it's almost like a dad checking in on how this thing you're interested in is school today. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I find myself examining my layer uh the layers of desire to go there. Yeah. And I know that one of those layers of desires is a patriarchal connection. Yeah. Even though I don't ever sit there and go, I'm gonna go to Canesville today so I can talk to dad. Yeah, you know what I mean? But there's there's a vibe of that to it in a very small way.
SPEAKER_02:I think there's like I I know I talked about like the synchronicity of it, but I think there's even like a synchronicity in that way where it's like almost, you know, there's just like some kind of magnetic pull towards from both sides of like the like this is a connection that is necessary now. Yep. And then yeah, it's presented. Oh, another unrelated thing. I'm not trying to just change this subject, but um, I just want to start noting these because I think they're cool. Um, a little moment of synchronicity. Audrey and I were running the other day, and we're listening to this podcast, and um yeah, we're we're like 49 minutes into a run. And we'd been listening to like three different podcasts, and we're listening to this podcast, and somebody mentions like the Minnesota twins. And as soon as they say the Minnesota Twins, the person that is on the sidewalk in a walker, right beside us, coming the other direction, passing us, like literally Minnesota Twins, we cross paths, we're on Minnesota twin shirt. Just a cool little little synchronicity. Yeah, just I I I like to, you know, you call the call them like glimpses of God or whatever. Yeah, you want it. But I just try to clock them and I want to start like trying to clock them on here because they have to be. I mean, definitely you should write them down too. I want yeah, I need to just keep well. The craziest one was um I've told you about the bat, right? The bat. When my dad passed and we were at the park. I think so. So this is crazy. So I I don't want to get into this too much, but we're at the we're essentially we're at the park and it was like when my dad before he'd this was before he'd passed, I think. Uh-huh. Or maybe it was after, but it was it was like a time where I was really like just in a rough spot, and I'm just like trying to process. Yeah. We just go to the park, and I'm like, okay, we're gonna walk around. And I it was just one of those very empty days where I just like didn't have anything. Like there's no horizon, there's no nothing. It's just like an empty day. And we're at the park, and um Audrey, like this was fall. Um, so it might have been after he passed, because he passed in October um of that year. And so, but essentially every everything had fallen, like the acorns had fallen. And so we were picking these acorns up and like throwing them, and we'd swing at them with a stick. It just, I don't know. We were, you know, we were just at the park and just like trying to literally anything that just carves out a moment of mindlessness. Yep. Um, and so I'm just we're doing this, and we did this like five times, and then and like you've been to Memorial Park. For those who haven't, it's just a giant open lawn. Yeah, it's just space. Open space, it's just grass, yeah. There's like a rose garden, and we're just like in the middle of a field over on the side. There's no like anything around this area, it's just grass. And I literally I say, Man, I wish we had a bat. And I swear I took two steps and I step on like a plastic waffle ball bat. I'm not kidding. Yeah, and I and it was just like, and like this was like it one of the worst moments in recent memory for me. Yeah, like I have like you know, I kind of do clock these, these um like I guess like temporal experiences that you'll just be in this moment and you're like this, like I'm not in a great place right now, and you just kind of clock it. And I was just like, like, if there was any time that I needed a synchronicity or like a glimpse of like of God, that was that that moment. And man, I wish we had a bat right now, and then there's a bat. Like, do you know what the odds of that happening are? Like, yeah, crazy. Like, un yeah, and I s we still have the bat somewhere, I think. It so yeah, just little moments like that.
SPEAKER_04:And I've uh you know tons more examples, but yeah, I I I I have a lot of like um like a flash of a person that I think I'm gonna see. And then you'll see them, but it's like unlikely. There's like a what that you know, it's not like they live in New York or something, and like, why would I see them here in Omaha? But it's like, yeah, it's just someone I just pops into my head, and then I see them. And there was like one person, I wish I would have written this down or kept it, but it like happened like two or three times or something, and I was like, This is crazy. Oh, it was uh Alexander Payne. Oh, yeah. I was going. I went to the post. I go to the post office. This is, I don't know, two years ago. I kind of spoiled it here. I go to the post office, I get out of my truck, and I just have this flash of a thought, man, it'd be wild if I saw Alexander Payne here. Now, for those of you don't know, Alexander goes to the post office every day, too.
SPEAKER_02:Like this is back then I wasn't.
SPEAKER_04:Um but for those who don't know, Alexander Payne, you know, Academy Award-winning screenwriter, big director. Um, he you know has a home here in Oma. He mostly lives here in Omaha. Um, and we've run into him in the past. I saw him one time at the old market. You saw him one time we were out taking photos.
SPEAKER_02:I have a couple pictures of him.
SPEAKER_04:So yeah, it's not like insane to see Alexander Payne, but it's you know, it doesn't happen often.
SPEAKER_02:It's we it's more strange that you thought about what if I like I know. I don't think Alexander Payne is like necessarily uh top of mind for me. No, right. Exactly, so you need to.
SPEAKER_04:But yeah, I get it out of the truck and I'm like, man, what would it be wild if Alexander Payne was inside? I fucking go into the goddamn post office and get in line, and I see salt and pepper hair at the counter, his back to me. He turns his head, I'm like, that's fucking Alexander Payne. Yeah. I'm like, what?
SPEAKER_02:No way. What is going on right now? That is it's bizarre.
SPEAKER_03:It's impossible. It's impossible. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And well, it's like impossibly possible. It's like a glitch in, yeah, it's the they call it glitch in the matrix. That's right. Yeah. And the other one, I think I've shared it on here before, but I'll reiterate.
SPEAKER_04:This one is truly fucking impossible. Yeah. Okay. So much so I'm swearing. My a girl I dated in um college. Um we're on one of our first dates, probably our first date. You know, we knew each other from theater school and all that stuff. And this is like our first night out. You know, I borrowed a friend's car, went, we went out, I think we went and saw a movie, went maybe got something to eat. And then we hung out at my apartment, nothing, you know, like that, but we just hung out. And so we were just talking all night long. And I out of nowhere, I'm like, when's your birthday? And she goes, August 28th. I'm like, Oh, that's my brother's birthday. And she goes, What's your birthday? And I went, April 26th. That's my sister's birthday. I'm like, what? Yeah. Insane. That's yeah, that's impossible. Yeah, yeah. That somebody from Chicago, I would think I was two or three years older than her, meets in Champaign, Illinois. Yeah, yeah. Is gravitates toward you. We both were like, what? Yeah. I mean, yeah, that is weird.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh truly statistically impossible.
SPEAKER_04:Just the fact that her birthday was the same as my brother's was crazy. Yeah. And then I have the same birthday as her sister. So it was my brother, then me, then her, then her sister in in that order. And I'm less like, ooh, man. Yeah, that's weird. That's awesome. I did not end up marrying her. We are not together. Yeah. We broke up a year later, and it was it's gotta be something. Yeah. Ah, something. You have to go mine that experience to get into something there. I mean, and we know we've had conversations about a lot of that stuff, but I I have had lots of what I call you call it synchronicity. I've also had lots of like little premonitions. Yeah. Um, you could argue that yours was sort of a premonition in the sense like of the bat and then it came true. You know, mine's like, I'll think of somebody, then I'll see them, or I'll think of like a little something happening, and then it it kind of does. Yeah. I know that's very vague and it's like, okay, pal, yeah, right. Yeah. Um, but you know, lots of moments where I'm like, huh, that actually just happened. Yeah. And I had thought about it literally eight minutes ago. It's just but it's very small.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it's it's one of like the most beautiful. It really does give me almost reassurance that we're not just, you know, yeah, atoms floating around and in space.
SPEAKER_04:Like there is something random and there is some kind of principle. That's probably why I keep sending you those consciousness articles from popular mechanics and shit. There's something here, bro.
SPEAKER_03:You thought of a bat, you said out loud, and then there was around, bro.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, that I'll never and just the moment like the timing of that too. Like it was literally at my lowest point. Yeah. And it's like, if there's any moment where I need like a brief glimpse of God, yeah, in like the most, and I mean that in like the most earnest way. Like, if there's any like that's the moment, yeah. And it happened, and it's just like after that, I literally just emptied. Yeah. Like I was like, okay, like I'm it's fine. Yep. Like, like you you feel this immense loss in this hole and this just like vacancy. And then it was just like, oh, it's fine. Yeah. Like my dad's right here. Like this is beautiful, yeah. Yeah. And I mean, actually, like since that moment, I mean, I like I've had moments of like, oh, I miss this, or like, oh, I I can't just like call or whatever. But it's like since that moment, I like it's very easy to just kind of be like, oh, yeah. It's like it it's all here. Like it's I haven't lost like well just because the you know the physical parameters have changed. Well somebody's listening to this afternoon. Like, what the fuck?
SPEAKER_04:Well, I'll say something really wild, but you know, like who's to say that the conversation with that man on the plane wasn't with your dad? Yeah. That there was that yeah, I have those thoughts too. Yeah. From the some of the the realms of the deep realms of consciousness we're not aware of.
SPEAKER_02:Like I mean your dad. That's something I I think I absolutely believe in. And like with writing, like most of the time when I'm writing, and I'll read you something after when we get we get done that I dug up that I wrote like five years ago that I just found recently. And I mean, I think we we constantly, if you're writing and it's from a place of something that's outside of your like conscious ego, yeah. Like I think you're channeling. We just said it at the same time. Yeah, yeah. We just channeled that we said synchronously. No, but I think I think you're channeling something. Yeah. Um, like you know, you think of a character and they're just fully formed in your mind immediately.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Like that's channel, like that's not me. Maybe it is me. I don't know how I got there, but like, I don't know. I'm gonna move on for sake of just just turning off every listener that we have to some like mystical whatever.
SPEAKER_04:I think we might, I think well, what could be uh divisive? It could be some are like this is a bunch of woo-woo bullshit, and others are like, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I mean, you I mean I'm going. I mean, you know me. Like, I'm you know me. I I like to say that though, because I like there's not a lot of people who I feel like have a pretty good idea of like I just I feel like I can be like you and I can just be together and not have like any kind of barrier in a lot of the sense.
SPEAKER_04:And or self-management.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and it it's been long enough too. Like the the the the depth in the length of our relationship has been, you know, it's enough to where it's a lot has come down over the years, like and we've been through a lot together and things like that. Yep. Um and it's I'm not a hyper, you know, I'm not a like I'm not super religious or anything like that.
SPEAKER_04:Uh I'm pretty well you did burn some sage at my house when you came to one time. I did a little dance.
SPEAKER_02:It was very I was not expecting a rain dance. I had to bring a rain. No. I had to I had to the food we ate, no.
SPEAKER_04:Um trying to conjure a Patriots win against the cackers, maybe.
SPEAKER_03:Um got you in the Super Bowl.
SPEAKER_02:It is uh Yeah, it's just like you know, I I don't know. There's just certain things that just feel true to me. And maybe again, maybe I'm just looking and I'm just connecting my own dots. But yeah. Should we talk about this? We're at an hour six.
SPEAKER_04:Or do you want to call it an episode and save it for another one?
SPEAKER_02:Up to you.
SPEAKER_04:We've we can I think we should save it because I think this will have another 30 minutes at least if we dive into it.
SPEAKER_02:Do you want to dive into the uh do you want to just present the idea of um of like the the cave, the salt mines, or I think you I mean we've teased it at this point. Yeah, we kind of have to. If you I I I worry that I'll screw it up a little bit. So essentially, like I I was just running and I was listening to uh um Werner Herzog's memoir. Um and I'm like just about finished with it. And he talked about this concept. It's like the chapter begins where he's talking about like thoughts, like reading people's thoughts. And he starts talking about this idea of I mean, what would you call it, like cultural translation or like in cultural inheritance, or like maybe so but I I the imagery is the best way to explain that. Um but there's this um like this uh essentially uranium containment. Um it's these salt mines that have been structurally unchanged or geologically unchanged for like 250,000 years. So there's no risk of like earth shifting or like you know, some kind of leakage or anything like that. And they're far enough away. Obviously, there's people like semi-glows, but and they're not thrilled, but they use it as this disposal site for uranium. And um he presents the concern of how do we warn future generations not to essentially not to interact with this space? Like you'll cause, you know, irreparable damage. Um and I don't know what the half-life of uranium is, but it's takes a minute, it takes a takes a long time. Um and so he's he's literally thinking on scales of like 40, 50, 60, 70,000 years. Like, how do we like our language will cease to be useful, our images will cease to be useful, like the context will have completely faded away. Like he even presents this beautiful image of we will we will like breed the cacti in the area to be blue, to act as a warning sign. And he's like, but that would be that might not be um sufficient because obviously over 40, 80,000 years, just climate change, you know, can render an area as like the climate in that or the the um the environment of that particular area could be completely different. It could be a completely different climate. So what you know, how do you um how do you warn against somebody? You you came to us like you had a similar thought I had about um you almost have to go back to the cave every decade for 40,000 years for 50,000 years and rehash the dangers. Yep. And so, you know, obviously we we we kind of made the connection of like rituals. What is a ritual? Like you're you're doing something over and over and over to translate some like older or maybe ungraspable or unable to capture in the language in the precise language of you know our current cultural landscape. And you're passing that over time. That's like essentially what a ritual is, and like how we don't even take rituals seriously, or like over time, even rituals begin to lose their significance. And so I don't know if I did as good a job of presenting it that second time as I did the first time, but just this idea of yeah, like our language ceasing to be useful, um our images ceasing to be useful, and you use this like there's this aboriginal tribe where they took posters from like 50s um I forget where advertising or was it like a essentially advertising. I'm not sure the what it wasn't revisit, but yeah, I mean essentially for for lack of a better um it was advertising, and it was an eye. It was like a danger, like don't get this in your eye. Yeah. And they had no idea what it meant. Yeah. Where as we'd look at it, and you know, we'd probably be like, oh, that means yeah. And so you take that for granted. And it's such a simple and profound concept of just like how much we're pulling on a very unique and finite cultural context that will completely dissolve over, you know, a thousand years, much less ten thousand, twenty thousand, fifty thousand years. Yep.
SPEAKER_04:It's just one of those ideas that's like well, and when you present it as like, well, if you put a sign up in the cave that said, you know, do not enter, yeah, you will die, you know, something like that. Like literally in those words, 40,000 years from now, um, nobody's gonna know what that means. Yeah. Language will have sort of died through evolution, at least that's my interpretation, died through evolution in a sense where where it's I mean, they could spend the time, yeah. They could spend the time trying to decipher the language and you know, figuring it out like we do with uh hieroglyphics or um other ancient languages, but there's still potentially meaning that's yeah, that's um that's lost or or misunderstood.
SPEAKER_02:It was like you almost need like a Rosetta stone. Yeah. But we even talked about Shakespeare and like the King James Bible. Like those are that's not even, you know, that's hundreds of years.
SPEAKER_04:What's interesting though? I think even if there were a symbol, something that would represent imminent death if you enter this place, I think no matter what, people would go, I'm still going in there. Doing it. I mean, you know, I mean it there hasn't been that span of time, but you think about like Raiders, and these are movies, obviously, and it's fun. Raiders lost our Goonies, you know, all these places where it's like you probably shouldn't go in there. And everybody's like, let's get in there. We let's open the arc of the cover. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:Like well, we talked about these ideas of like like building these unbelievable, like Yeah, Stonehenge or Stonehenge. The pyramids is like this this idea of we have to put so much into this that it is seems impossible, yeah, so it's clear. Yeah. And these things are still completely like, oh, aliens must have come and put this here. Like they had to have superior technology. It's like, whereas, you know, maybe it was as simple as like, what do you think is a warning that's so fucking obvious?
SPEAKER_03:It reminded me of like we we built like like this is so perfect. Yeah. We thought you would get the hint, right? Isn't it obvious what this is?
SPEAKER_04:And you know, nobody it's still whoa, this isn't this is insane. Yeah, look at this big rocks they put in, man. Get out. How do they not know its spells? Get the fuck out of here. It's just insane. Well, you could, you know, Chernobyl, you know, like our you know, people people know what it is, dude. They still I gotta go see it. I gotta go check out those mutated animals and the rusty old swing sets. Like it's gonna make great content.
SPEAKER_02:It's gonna be a good sweet. I think uh yeah, we'll leave we'll leave you to chew on that. Chew the chew the fat on that.
SPEAKER_01:It had been a golden afternoon, and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer.
