68. Protect The Work At All Costs

We started this one talking about whether building a content ecosystem around photography risks turning the work into content, and how the pressure to produce on a content timeline can collapse the space that photographs actually need. When you're operating from scarcity, you grab the recognizable brand for cheap instead of holding out for the thing that represents what you're building. That tension between immediacy and long-term identity ran through most of the conversation, how we each relate to our own work.

We spent a lot of time on taste and self-criticism. Matt talked about genuinely loving many of his photographs and wondering whether that's a kind of happy cluelessness or something closer to what Eggleston described when he said he loves all his pictures. We talked about the Winogrand documentary again, the thousands of undeveloped rolls, what it means that the act of shooting might have mattered more to him than the output, and how the art world commentary around his work sounds increasingly hollow on repeat viewings. That led into mimicry versus voice, and the moment content stops being performance and starts being the thing itself. -Ai

 If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode. 

Links To Everything: 

Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT 

Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT 

Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT 

Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT 

Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG 

Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG 

Transcript

Keeping Photography Separate From Content

SPEAKER_00 0:03

And I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with some place.

SPEAKER_02 0:15

Yeah, so um but what what I don't want to have happen is I don't want to build this content ecosystem around photography and it turns photography into work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Like I don't wanna I don't wanna that's why I'm like I don't know if if that's the best route to take with the photography. Like I don't know. I think personally if I was if I was just like giving you my thoughts on it, I would keep it separate. Yeah. Um like talk about everything that goes into it, but never do the work on the like never make the work the content. Right. And obviously that's one thought about it, but like I feel like most like if you watch any of the walkie-talkies or you watch like they're like, yeah, I'll use street photography or like anything that's content kind of as practice, but then most of the work like it almost it it requires like a different mindset when you're actually like out there to create work. Right. You probably don't want to be filming or thinking about filming crazy bright.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Yeah, no, and I completely agree with that. I don't want every time I go out to shoot to be thinking I've gotta have my camera with me about it.

Why Great Work Needs Time

SPEAKER_01 1:42

And you you don't wanna you don't wanna, I mean it's good in a in a sense that it kind of keeps you going, but like I don't think like even the channels that you really like, like I mean, Granny Day is a probably a good example. Like most of his stuff is just about oh, like here's a unique camera that I came across, or like here's a travel vlog, essentially. Yeah. And then it's like a backdrop, like the photography's a part of it. Right. Um and it's a photography channel, but it's not like I don't know. I just I think a lot of um it's it's a really dangerous line to tow. Yeah. And I think it really probably does hurt the work considerably. And you're also dependent on the photographs in a way like there's just a different expectation with content. So you're dependent on them in a different way and at a different time scale. Yeah. Like some of the photos I showed you, like I've been sitting like I haven't really done a lot of work in the last six months. So all of that is from like the last like three and a half years. Yeah. But most of that has just been sitting in front of me, and I'm like, uh, there was no like through line or anything until I had a reason. Right. Um so there's you know, while there's I think an advantage to forcing yourself to be accountable, there's also sometimes it just takes time. And if you are forcing yourself, sometimes you might, you know, step into something that you don't that time isn't you're you're you're not it hasn't developed enough. There's not enough time to kind of realize what's right in front of you. Yeah. And the only solution is time. There's no way to like fight through it sometimes. Um, and there's a lot of people that hate thinking about taking a lot of time on anything, yeah. And that just sounds like, oh, you're just making excuses or kicking. But it's like photography is one of those things where it just does take time. Like you might get a few images a year, and um that are up to your I don't know. A lot of people take a lot of photos in the world, so odds are you're not gonna, you know, find a lot of unique stuff. And when you do come across those scenarios, yeah, use them, and then you know that just that again, that just takes time and putting yourself in different situations. So yeah, I almost think like sorry if I'm kind of circling around the same point and saying it in the same way, but yeah, use like content, the like going out and finding stuff and like selling the stuff as kind of more of the content. Yeah. And then maybe the backdrop is photography, the through line is, but then like that work has its own I see what you're doing. It's own life outside of the digital. I don't know. That's just that's outside looking in, but I've obviously you've thought through this a lot.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

Yeah, I mean I have and I have it. It's it's it's you you think about you know, I think about the where the what about the pull. Like what where am I where am I being pulled? Where do I feel like I want to take this? But then there's not a lot of scrutiny of you know, like the example I give is at Josh's shop, you know, I would go through different thrift stores, estate sales, and like pull any t-shirt that was pop culture, a band, um, a movie, a horror movie, you know, whatever. And I really wasn't discerning about like the actual quality of the shirt. And we got to a point where Josh and I had a conversation, he's like, you know, you you really want to be discerning about what shirts go in the shop. I want to be at that point where every shirt feels like it's a higher quality material construction, or it's an like, you know, yeah, it's great that that's like a cool picture of the exorcist on this t-shirt, but look at the shirt itself. Yeah, it's uneven, it's a little twisted because of poor construction, it's not a hundred percent cotton, like and I'm just going, I need to make money. People like the exorcist, we have VHS and all this stuff in the shop, so throw it in there and I'll make 15 bucks, you know.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

And he's like, Well, 10 people are gonna buy this and then the shirt's gonna wear out over a year and they're gonna Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

So you, you know, he you know, there's an awareness of like, yeah, but what does this mean about the identity of this place and the He's a real long game guy, which is awesome. I love it, yeah. Yeah. And I'm much more sort of, you know, I'm usually in a place of scarcity, or at least I think I'm in a place of scarcity. So I'm a little bit more in a frenzied state sometimes. So yeah, the the concern is that you you you start developing something, um, you know, uh content around photography, around what you're doing in your life. And that scarcity feeling makes you buy the shitty fit t-shirt because it's got a a recognizable brand on it that people will buy. And that's the only thought that goes into acquiring it and putting it out for sale. And then that's the concern with what you would make for content. Like, oh, people love lens comparison videos, let's do this lens versus this lens versus this lens, just get it out there, you know. But what while that might perform well and you know be a one out of ten video on YouTube and all that stuff, how does it fit into the the you know, the greater um the greater play of what you're putting together and build?

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Um I kind of want to stay in that, I don't know if you do, and well, I'm I'm super open to going somewhere else, but I don't know, my mind's in like a building things mode right now. Yeah. Like getting laying stuff out, getting things set, and just kind of like getting into that put your head down mode for the summer. Yeah. And I mean it's we talked about it before we went live. Like when you put your head down, there's it's not that interesting. I'm sure ideas are gonna come up and like there's new things that are gonna pop up we're gonna find and explore and talk about.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Um that's that's a bit of a reference to like having like a real specific but yeah like v vastly explorable idea that we bring out of the podcast that like we center the whole thing around or try to work through and unpack.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

But and we haven't had really anything that we're like very interested in lately. And I I mean but yeah, I'm kind of like I don't know, I'm just I'm in like goal accomplishing mode. Like we set a lot a lot of those goals uh like last year at the end of last year. Right. And yeah, I'm kind of in just that like all right, let's start getting to these things, and you know, not really worrying about for me, it's like not worrying about like getting something new or not like getting something that I don't have or whatever. Just it's just making things like moving away from the consumption and towards just like okay, like there's a project and works here, there's a project and works here, there's a project and works here, and like getting rid of getting the logistics out of the way, getting the infrastructure built to go with that. And so I'm it's interesting that you're kind of like, okay, I want to focus in on doing the photography thing. So I'd love to explore that because that's kind of the mindset that I'm in right now, is like that. Like I want to talk about the infrastructure that goes into that. Yeah. Like you just got the the camera, yes, and you're selling stuff, yeah, which hopefully feels good. Hopefully, you're just like get rid of all of this and clear the physical and mental space.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

It does. I think the biggest thing is, you know, like um for any regrets? No, no, no regrets at all. Yeah, I think I'm just gonna have to go deeper into my um personal inventory to offset the cost of the camera because just sort of normal revenue is so up and down that sometimes what if I sell one of these cameras, like the 300 bucks I might get might need to like pay our electric bill.

SPEAKER_03 10:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Yeah. And then I'm like, okay, well, now I have to make up that$300, you know, and I don't have another$300 camera just sitting there. It's not like there's a bottomless pit of them. It maybe felt like that day one, but they're going quick. Yeah. And um, and the expenses and the bills and things like that are still there. So it's like, okay, I need to make sure that I am pulling the levers of of revenue in the more traditional sense, whether it's you know, a video about film convert nitrate and I make 500 bucks in in commissions from that, you know, like I have to spin that stuff up because everything as is, it just isn't enough. You know, you can only sell so many Marlboro t-shirts on Depop. You can only sell so many VHS tapes and$40 cameras at Josh's shop. You you know, you you have a sort of a ceiling of maybe$1,500 to$2,000 a month. And when your expenses are essentially that, yeah, it it's just it's a it's a lot of work to to to have to generate that revenue to cover everything. And then not only that, you know, pay your own salary, all of those things. So um uh so yeah, I think it's just uh, you know, with the being having been basically going on three weeks since we bought the cameras, um I just have a lot more work to do to come up with the money to pay it back. And it's not like uh insurmountable or anything, but and it just creates this little flashpoint again of sort of immediacy and and the stakes are high to not let that that that energy around it slip away into some you know, like uh, I'll get to it eventually.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Like it's funny how we like perpetually put ourselves in the situation. Yeah. Like you kind of climb out and you're like, okay, I'm feeling good. Right. And it's like, oh, but this camera. And gotta get it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Yeah. At the same time though, the feelings of it sounds corny, but it there's like a feeling of sort of um a feeling of being sort of at peace. Like there isn't something hanging out there that I feel like I need to grab to like do the the work the way that I envision doing it.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

Um, which is funny because on the photography side, I aspire to have this very expensive camera. And even if there is anything out there, it's trying to get an actual like a lens for it. I want to have the full experience, the full system, and just sort of have the setup that I want to do to do the work that I see myself doing. But then on the flip side, when it comes to the video aspects of things, I want my shitty old, cheap, inexpensive cameras. I still have my 2018 EOSR. I couldn't care less about getting an R5 Mark II or a Sony FX3 Mark II. Don't give a shit. Um, and uh you know, a lot of the stuff, the cameras that I'm using to make my videos are camcorders and the black magic pocket cinema camera, the original one. So it's it's funny that with everything that I've been doing on the photography side with a QL17 and the Canon F1 and um uh you know a few other cameras, I needed this big expensive thing to feel like I could take it to the next level. And uh as much as I wanted a film camera like an M6, I it's just not practical for me to shoot film right now cost-wise. It's how expensive it is. I mean, a roll of Ultra Max at Walgreens is$13 a roll right now for 36 exposures.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Kodak is coming down, but I hope so, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

Yeah but um so so so uh so there's that.

Building A Flywheel Creative Life

SPEAKER_01 14:30

I don't know where what started that thread, but um well just yeah, just kind of like the infrastructure of like building out making photography the the thing for you, and I mean I guess I guess more just the the I think one of the more interesting things to talk about is like progression, yeah, like at least for this show specifically, or maybe that's just what I'm thinking about right now, but you know, yeah, it's this idea of like moving forward and like how do you see that? Like we we've been you know, we've been spending time talking about like oh, like what do we see the podcast doing over the next year? And I had like this rush of kind of creative energy behind it, and yeah, I mean, I just kind of like paving the way for cool stuff to be possible, yeah. And it's like obviously you could just do anything, but it's a lot easier to do things in an effective way when you kind of build the the runway for it. Yeah. And so, yeah, like thinking ahead and looking at okay, I want to do this, and then here are the steps that I'm taking now to set that up. Yep. And where do, yeah, kind of where where are you at with that in in photography?

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Well, you know, the the interesting thing about it too is I I mean, I I joke about it on my on the vinyl record channel, I call it an analog midlife crisis, and a lot of my con uh attachment and connection to photography and and even reselling is getting away from my studio, getting out in the world. You know, I was just watching um a video on YouTube about Alex Webb, and in the you know, the 70s and 80s, you know, all the places that he traveled to for photography, whether it was commissioned or his commissioned works allowed him to just go do it on his own and and take a month in North Africa and you know, take photographs. Like a thousand photos a day, yeah. And do all that stuff a day, but yeah. Um kind of what you talked about, you know, like Jason's channel where it's almost a travel vlog and it incorporates photography.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

You know, if if I was making sort of like curation and he's like building structure to where it's like, okay, I can travel, I know how to travel, and then I I know like these are the places that I want to go, I know these are the steps to do that travel. And then he just takes a camera. Yeah. And always has a camera. And so he's constantly making work that it's just it's a I I call it the flywheel. Like, yep. And that's not a term that I came up with. It's a term that I've, you know, it's there's nothing unique there, but yeah, everything kind of serves everything else. Yep. And I think that's the most that at least that's what's most sought after for me personally, is that flywheel effect where everything serves everything else. Nothing is kind of adding friction that's unnecessary. Exactly. This podcast is a huge like flywheel component. Yeah. Like the everything can be a flywheel component if designed right.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

Yeah, and I think like you said about you know, sort of building, you know, that's that's that's a lot of what this has been. It's been a reaction to looking up and realizing I spent the last 20 years sitting at a desk for 10 hours a day staring at a computer, uh computer screen. And while I don't regret any of that, uh I don't feel like I'm living the way that I want to live through that work anymore.

Finding Your Voice Beyond Mimicry

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Um I was watching sometimes I'll get on Matt's YouTube channel, I'll go and scroll all the way down to the bottom. And uh he's wearing like a collared shirt and he's got like the clean cut haircut, and you can just scroll through, and it's like Yeah, those seasons are oh, this is when Matt did mushrooms right here. Yeah. Um, but it is it is funny to scroll back and it's just like a complete shift, and just like and I remember watching some of your old videos, and um, I'd be like, I mean, this is this is fine, but it kind of had that like yeah, you're performing energy. And then at a certain point, I I just I was looking through it, I'm like, oh yeah, man. Like at a certain point, like I just stopped ever considering, like, it was always just taken at face value because it was just what you had to give. Yeah, like there is no like, is it good or bad? Like, there was like an expectation, like you were trying to make a good video back in the day. At least in maybe this is just again, it's just my my view of the the situation. But I just remember, yeah, something I was like, oh it's it's good. And like, but you you're doing the YouTube thing, and then at some point, like you kind of just are like this is me. Yeah, this is what I'm gonna do. And I mean, that's it's crazy. Like, you don't even think about there's no judgment, like it's just there's no taste involved. Like you it could uh not for me for me, sure, but there's no like, is this good or bad? It's you, yeah. And so that's I mean, that was cool. Just I love scrolling through and kind of seeing the that change occur over time.

SPEAKER_02 20:00

Yeah, and what's funny is I feel like it kind of started out that way. Like, I wasn't like I was making my videos early on, just sort of like not thinking about emulating the other successful YouTubers in that space.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

It did seem like even those early ones, though, it was like, oh, well, I'm starting a production company. What did you do? You make a YouTube channel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

That's what Gary V says you're supposed to do.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Yeah, no, and not like that, yeah. And now it's just kind of like, I don't know, just like making videos. Yeah. Like I just kind of do this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

It's something I do, and you know. Well, and it's like it goes back to that Bruce Springsteen thing we played, you know, that need to communicate, you know. Now he, I think, you know, he wasn't like I'm sure there were elements of that, you know, looking up to his heroes and in music from the past and sort of like taking certain elements of their style or their look, or like, oh, you if you're gonna be a rock star, you gotta do this or do that. But you know, you don't like listen to his songs and be like, oh yeah, that's when Bruce was trying to sound like this band or this musician, you know, and he was just sort of like appropriating their six their formula for success into his own versus having his own voice, which of course is influenced by a lot of things. Yeah. But there's sort of uh a um an authenticity that comes that comes out of it, even if you are being influences, where I tend to sometimes do more mimicry or imitation.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Sort of like, okay, I see this is what Peter McKinnon and Maddie Apoya are doing. Like I'm gonna wear those clothes and kind of have that look and grade my videos this way and have 60 frames per second B-roll and like do the like do their thing, you know, with a little bit of my vibe to it. But for the most part, like I'm chasing, I need to make this work financially and commercially. This is what they did to to have it, so I'm just gonna kind of kind of emulate that, you know, versus you know, having done it long. enough and and and going well and that's that's the the the photo videos channel I'm like I'm watching all these videos and I'm not seeing this thing yeah and uh this is what I want to watch yeah so I'm gonna and it was there's no like this needs to have a hundred thousand subscribers in six months like I need to put it through the sausage factory and and come up with uh you know the thing that everybody's gonna want to have it was just when I sit down at night I want to watch a video that looks and feels like this yeah and just made it uh and I think that taught me like oh you know that that's a much a much more uh a a better way to um uh to do it and and and and how I could feel in making it and I think that extends to the photography. I mean there's no doubt like I might take a photo of something and somewhere in the back of my mind is uh you know the influence of Eggleston or Stephen Shore um Gary Winnegrand something like that even just like going out and taking street photos you know you're sort of in a sense imitating yeah like where you're going to find these moments.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

The influences slowly become more obscure though and like slowly start to yeah like usually if if you're imitating somebody's work it's because you have a preference for that work. Right. And so you're getting more of yourself into the work over time anyways. And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

And I think with with photography part of why I gravitate toward it so much is those those photographers inspire me but when I'm out in the world I just feel like there's a there's there's not any fabrication happening. I'm not like looking for the Eggleston photo like oh if I take a picture of these clouds like that's gonna like that's gonna be my Eggleston photo. It's just being out there and having this like there it is. You know that's it. That's the thing to take a photograph of for sure. And again while having ingested these photographs from all these different photographers even Jason on grainy days all the way to you know um you know Robert Frank you know all of that stuff um it's in there but you know it's less like with the YouTube channel sort of like all right I'm gonna watch these videos tonight and then tomorrow morning I'm going to consciously incorporate the those yeah those styles into what I'm doing you know I'm gonna I'm gonna take some of that into mine and do my thing. You know and then my friends would tell me in my Discord they're like you know because you know their videos uh you know are certainly their own voice but I would be like oh well Dylan and Dylan are doing really well with their final cut videos and they're like really energetic and they do like one of them incorporates a lot of comedy the other one um has a lot of um you know vibrance in his and and transitions and all that and you start thinking well they're doing yeah they're doing well so maybe if I do some of those things I can't I can be funny. Yeah and then they they were like we actually really like watching your videos because we feel like we have all this time to breathe because we're just like sitting there with you while you teach us this stuff.

Taste Confidence And Loving Your Photos

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Well everybody yeah I think that's the funny part is everybody wants something that they can't do. Yeah that's just part of the painful process of coming to terms with your own art. For most of us I feel like we're inside like you're in like for example with my work like I'm in my head all the time I'm very familiar with that space. Yeah um and so it's easy to look out and take like think everybody else is also just as familiar and that it's also just as kind of well worn on the to the outside world as it is to me. Yeah. So like I see something I'm just like this is awful and like here's all the things I dislike about it or here's all the things that you like like obviously this is where this influence is from or obviously this is where this is stemming from or obviously this is what I pulled this from and I'm just like that's not interesting. And then you get out and it's like I mean especially when you get into some more obscure references or source material or just like building blocks and ideas it's like 99% of people aren't don't care. Yeah or like this isn't a novel thing that they can look at interestingly and I you know this I have the same thing I'll go out and I'll look at other people's thing I'll be like oh my god how did they do that? Yeah and now there is a bit like I I I that I'm not there is like a skill component that some people have where it's just like wow like how did they do that? That's amazing. But then like from the taste component side it's like you you have to have confidence at a certain point to just kind of trust that you're in there all the time but when it's out in the world it is more novel than you probably think it is to at least in your head. Does that make sense? Yeah I think yeah um I'm trying to think of an example but I mean yeah it's just familiarity kind of it causes contempt and I think um we take for granted our familiarity with ourselves and then let that sometimes influence how the work goes.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

But then it's funny because you were talking about you kind of like a different experience with that you're more of the Eglston where you're just like uh no like I'm just taking pictures of stuff that I like to see and yeah it made me feel when I heard that sound bite from that video I watched uh it made me go okay this it's okay if that I feel this way uh for for everyone listening and watching uh the quote was uh just sort of like he was just talking about looking at his own work and he's talking about how much he loves all of his pictures yeah like he loves his pictures yeah and he's and he also says um I don't really care that much for other people's pictures yeah and I don't know if he if he meant like they they aren't it's not good work. He he just isn't enamored with it like he is his own stuff. Um and I've always felt like something's wrong with me that I like so many of my photographs um uh you know uh and that doesn't mean that in the objective obs you know the objective the uh the objective um uh uh assessment by the photography world as a whole if they all feel like yeah it's fine I mean you know okay great you know uh or they think it's bad like I don't care about any of that because I I I was working on a video today where I had to go back through the archives and pull some of the earlier stuff I was doing with my EOSR when you know early in in in and you kind of showing me these street photography books and all this stuff and I'm like I like these photos like I think this is a really I love this picture of these girls sitting on the edge of the parking garage. Like that is one of my favorite photos I've ever taken and I'm like I I don't feel bad about that. It could be just sort of like you know and I'm not saying Eggleston suffers from this but I you know some you know sometimes for me I just think it's sort of like is there just sort of this um it's not ignorance or stupidity it's just sort of like love like like it's that that's like oh bless your heart you know it's it's like you just don't know any better. Yeah you know like I'm just like I'm too dumb to to I don't mean so and I don't mean like not intelligent. I just mean like there's something missing that makes me really scrutinize what I make when I feel like it came from this convergence of things my whole life in the moment seeing something knowing I've put my the camera up and snapped the photograph it turned out how I liked it's exposed properly the technical things are there. Um this is a photograph I feel like if I saw just like on the wall somewhere, I'd be like, oh that's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 30:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

You know like I I don't know if there's just sort of like a a happy cluelessness that I have that I just don't have all these obstacles that what I think about about my own work has to has to go through and get past to decide whether or not I like it or not.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

And that doesn't mean that every single photograph I've ever taken I think is is awesome and I love it. I mean there are certainly photographs that when I took it I'm like that's gonna be a good one and then I don't like it. Yeah. Um and then others where I am I'm like that's gonna be a good one and I'm like yep I love that photo yeah I think it's you like I'll I'll tend to fixate on stuff that I really admire.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Yeah. And then I just look at my stuff and I'm like it's so far away from that and not like in like in a just a number of ways and that's what gets me is I'm just like oh well like this is fine but yeah and like there's there's photos like I I for about the last probably uh like the last decade like I've been I I can look back at most of the work that like I've liked at one point and I'm like there's yeah this is still interesting. Yeah like I see what I was doing here like I'm not I'm not like embarrassed about work anymore like yeah I I'm I'm past that stage. I mean maybe I'll make like a big jump in a different direction I'll just be super embarrassed about everything. But like I mean for the most part I'm like yeah like I I I see or like that's where I was or like that's what I was doing and so it's not really that but it is just like I don't know maybe I'm just like more critical and like I mean that like a negative way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

So yeah and that's you know I mean all I'm sure all the photographers that we've talked about um you know or bought their books or looked through their books they all have different feelings about it all yeah I'm sure there's some that love it and there's some that are yeah that beat themselves up over it or you know only have one or two that they think are actually really good and and other photos that people think are like, are you kidding me? This is an all-timer and they're like yeah it's you know it's good.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Yeah. Yeah I mean I that's that's the thing you learn more and more I think too is just it's all taste. Yeah. Like it's all just a matter of taste and you can look at something and depending on the time of your the time in your life or the time of day or the mindset or what you've been looking at or you know like you said any number of factors that build up to that moment can influence you to be like yeah or no and you know when I approach photograph I'm looking at it with certain things and you know I'm like yeah or no. Yeah and you know that that's constantly changing and yeah I'll look back through my own work and I'll be like oh this one's not as bad as I thought it was or sometimes I'll be like yeah this one's fine. Like the biggest thing is just like I'll look through some of my work and I'm like there's an idea here but it's not anywhere near executed well enough to like translate like I'm trying to be really strict about what translates like if there's just an idea there and it's like interesting then I'll be like okay maybe but if it doesn't really really like carry then I try to edit it out. Yeah and yeah I don't know I mean that's it's not a it's not a great place to be I'm sure it's like makes it more difficult.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

Yeah but but yeah I think that the thing about taste too you know I've grappled with that all the time I just sometimes I just I'm maybe a little bit more critical about about those things in other aspects of my life whether it's like the design of you know the layout of our living room or you know how my studio is or the clothes I wear you know or I'm like what are you doing? You know like you don't really you're not really doing anything. I remember I picked up a painting at um an estate sale and the thing that I grabbed onto was the woman was you know was passionate about painting. And I think she was a homemaker and um uh you know um raised you know raised her kids and all that stuff and she really you know filled the house with paintings that she could afford and and loved but then also did her own paintings and I remember seeing this painting that that she did of a barn and it's not you know like I'm sure objectively from the art community you know the the art art community would be like it's you know not necessarily a very good painting but there's something for me where I'm like the earnestness in trying and doing it and you know there's like that I see that in that painting and that's what I like about it. And my friend Mark was like if you want a painting of a barn I can find a lot more better paint you know a lot of other better paintings than this. Yeah. And I'm like but that's what I like about this.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

It's sort of like it's not this one.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

Yeah because I think and that's part of why I liked it is because that I feel like is probably what someone's going to think of my work yeah um when all is said and done. They might be like I I see where you're coming from. I see what you're trying to do here. I see the passion I see the the the you put the reps in all that stuff. It just didn't add up to uh you know a Monet. It didn't add up to uh uh um what's his name from the TV show Happy Little Trees and all that like it just didn't come together yeah you know and there's something that about that fear of mine. Happy little trees yeah what's his name Bob Ross Bob Ross. There's something I don't know if Bob Ross and Monet are in the I mean it is it is funny though though I mean if he if his estate actually sold his paintings I'm sure they would go not maybe not Monet dollars but they the the his estate would make some coin yeah um and and obviously a lot of that's backed by the fact that he had a TV show but um but yeah there the there that that sort of like fear about m the body of work I when all is said and done or people look at my YouTube channel like you know I I oh you're trying to be a YouTuber I see I see you know the I see the attempt here and you know it's great that you have this body of work when when all was said and done but you know you kinda something just it just didn't come together for you. Yeah. You know and that's what I liked about her painting.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

It that's what makes me think it's really good.

Winogrand And The Myth Of Hits

SPEAKER_01 37:15

Need that yeah I don't know. So and again that's yeah what you just described is you're coming at it with your own experiences and taking it at its at face value for you. And yeah that's all you can really do. And that's all anybody really does and yeah you just try to curate what you're happy with and then go from there. The crazy thing about the photography you know I I rewatched the Winnegrand documentary and so my favorite thing about that documentary is how stupid some of the people sound well like there it's just it that is the documentary like the thing that and I've watched it like 40 times I've told you about that. Yeah um and all of the little art critics and they're like oh I don't think it's great or I think it's great because it's a figure and the da da da da da and it just becomes immediately clear like oh my god you guys are all idiots. Yeah no offense like and obviously there's some you know brilliant people in there and there's like some great photographers but it's just like you guys sound so silly right now especially on like the 10th watch when you're you kind of like get past the presentation and you're just like listening at face value for the the words and you're just like you don't know what you're talking about. But like in a good like in a nobody knows what they're talking about in a way. And that's what it taught me more of is Gary was always just doing Gary. Yeah and everybody else was always trying to read the world and do his work and do this and they came with all these preconceptions and these ideas and these intellectual kind of arguments as to why this is good or not good and just like you guys are so full of shit. And I think the documentary I don't know if it's doing this on purpose or if it is just a byproduct yeah but it does a really good job of juxtaposing Gary and just this community that is just toxic. And that's what photography is that's the photography community. That's always been the photography community when I get on here and I'm like pissed about like we're talking talking to you about like people like galleries you know acting like asses or whatever and just that's that community. Yeah and that documentary just like you guys are just making this shit up.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

Or you know presenting your idea of what a really smart person who knows their stuff about art would sound like if they were being filmed for a documentary.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Yeah it's so I mean like I'll I it's almost like comedy for me now like I'll watch it and I'll just be like oh yeah I fucking love this guy. Yeah give me the line again like and you you just like you're like oh yeah that's he's used that one 23 other times in conversation like you kind of have like it's kind of what I love about like this bohemian you know not pseudo intellectual like it is intellectual but it is like a college like intellectual kind of crowd and I grew up around some of that like I I had like a lot of diverse influences kind of growing up and that was definitely like one of those like yeah you get a bunch of people in a room and everybody kind of has their sound bite right everybody kind of has their like oh we're talking about this well this is my go-to for that and I've got a story and I've got a little soundbite and I've got a little critique of like what do you think of this? And there's no thought that really goes into it but you've got you've got your bases covered and it's like oh here's a little quippy thing that I can present really quick and yeah then I'll go grab another glass of Pinot.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Yep I I was actually thinking about that on myself in editing my video for the this week about getting the M11 there was a line that I said in there I don't know what's wrong with my memory today but I cannot remember anything it's the bread something I can't remember what it was and I was like yeah you said that line a couple times like you start to kinda you start to kind of develop it's one of my favorite things in film dialogue like a lot of the old screwballs play with that where they'll just like have the like they'll just repeat it a few times like the the Coens are a good like a lot of their dialogue they just like repeat the same lines where you're like oh yeah this is a yeah this is their bit their go-to thing whether they're aware of it or not.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Well I mean the Coens are making fun of it like definitely and and like yeah you'll just have a character and you know they've kind of got their little thing. They're like oh this is what I say in this situation. Right right right right I just I don't know. Well uh so before we get away from it I want to go back. If you watch the documentary how did it strike you like is that you've seen it before. Gary?

SPEAKER_02 41:58

Yeah yeah I had I bought you know I have it through uh my iTunes account yeah yeah and um I had not watched it for seven so I originally watched it because when you introduced me to this whole world you know and I went ape shit and just got everything I could um if it wasn't on YouTube to be able to watch you know I just bought it off of iTunes. And because I got the M11, you know, I'm like that it did something where I'm like I want to revisit a lot of this material. So I've been pulling all my photography books every morning and over coffee I've been just flipping through them, reading um I watched the Gary Wintigrande documentary, the William Eggleston documentary again I did um a few others uh and I don't know what it is. It's almost like uh like when a football player listens to music before a game like some like it does something to just get you fired up and and kicked it up.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Again it does that like mimetic desire that we all have to kind of emulate our I don't want to say our heroes but just we have to find it's a very human quality you have to find an example of the thing that you want to do. That's why we're so enamored with people who seem to do something that's completely novel.

SPEAKER_02 43:14

Or you have to find an example of someone articulating how they feel about what they're doing, not doing the work, whatever. And that's why I brought up that William Eggleston I'm like oh oh okay when I hear someone else who's like on the Mount Rushmore of art photography say something that I feel like it puts me at ease and I can kind of move on to the next thing to be searching for answers for unsettled over or whatever. And I think that's part of revisiting that material especially where it's less you know obviously you know Gary has very few moments where he's speaking about the work in the documentary because he passed away in 1984. So there's not as much information but like the Saul Leiter documentary I've watched probably three or four times and just how he talks about the work um in a sort of like in a not talking about the work way with Saul. It's sort of like I just go out.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

Gary has a there's a lecture that's on YouTube that I gave it right it's in mono, it's really annoying. It's like left ear only. Oh I see yeah. But it's a lecture that he gave to Rice University um which is worth the listen. It's where I got that um talks about like I'd like I'd like not to exist. Right. Yeah. And Gary's like I was enamored with that kind of perspective on photography and I go back and forth and like at points I was like oh that's kind of that's the thing. Like I just want to float. Yeah. And I'm like you start to kind of what is photography and you break that down and I you know it's kind of like a couple weeks ago on an episode I was talking about like how my definition of what art is or whatever is evolved a little and gone through iteration and but it's worth a listen. Yeah I would I would check it out. It took an hour and a half. Yeah I might rip it and then like just put the mono or put the audio track into the right channel and upload it you know and watch it through multiple teams Gary was thoughtful about photography and I think he's like he doesn't really have a bless you he doesn't really have like a set in stone like he was constantly kind of pushing yeah it seems like um but he he was a thoughtful guy um from the from what I've heard of like his his speakings and things like that. So well it's worth listening to you can listen to it a few times and kind of get different stuff out of it each time too.

SPEAKER_02 45:30

The the the well you know one of the big things that I honed in on this time watching it was you know just trying to listen to everything that was said about how many roles of film he had that were undeveloped. You know you're talking thousands of roles of film and you you you you multiply that by 24 36 exposures and it's significant.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

It's I think it's funny though like this this word's not good. And it's like well when you're not editing your work as in like going in and making like selections of like the one or two shots like I people just have this expectation like oh they're a great photographer so everything that they take is and Gary talks about or there's just this idea of like working so far close the edge where you're like I don't know if this is going to fail or if it's gonna succeed. And a lot of those are going to fail. And you know sometimes you get in this weird hypnotic state where maybe you just rip for a little bit and you're like I don't like yeah it's not skill yeah it's luck more more than anything like yeah sure you set yourself up to be in the right position with the right equipment and whatever but it's like writing yeah suddenly you're like go through a period Dylan's you know talking about his work in the 60s he's like I don't know who wrote that it's like that shit just kind of hit me in the face.

SPEAKER_02 46:52

And that's what I think I just happened to be there at the typewriting that goes back to this idea of channeling you know um I think Gary from what I could see in the in the film you know just was when he was out working he was you know channeling something from another dimension you know and that feeling I think and you could see it you know they talked about his work uh you know the Animals project with photos he took of the zoo which was a project that he didn't like just choose out of out of nowhere it was he had to watch his kids and take them somewhere and to do something and he turned it into work. And then at the end of the documentary they're talking about how he kind of lost the step um and his photography suffered you know he had some physical limitations so he was taking some of his photos from you know a vehicle um but then before that happened you know and he was an older father after his I think in his third marriage that he uh I can't remember if he had kids in his second marriage or third marriage whatever he's he's doing photography while his kids are with him and he's walking the streets and he's got his kid on his shoulders he's you know he's sort of tending to these kids and you can't you can't position yourself where you need to be positioned to compose the shot like he did when he was younger. Um and I think with all those undeveloped roles he was so connected to I'm sure the drug of street photography, the dopamine, the you know sort of the the more um oh yeah no it's you know that part but then also just like in this state of channeling like just being out in the world and just waiting for something to develop and then to to put yourself in a position to get the photo.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

Like you almost derive more from the act of doing the thing. Yeah. And this is different for everybody but like I when I was cleaning up negatives this week yeah I got to a point where I was just like I could probably honestly throw like there's like 10 years of negatives in there. Yeah. And I was like I could probably just throw all these in the trash and just like start over. Like the idea of just drawing a line in the sand and starting from scratch was more attractive than sorting the negatives and like organizing them. Yeah I was like there's nothing in here that I'd really hate to lose and I'm sure there is I'm sure there's a couple in there that I'd be like you're an idiot like thankfully I have that like foresight to be like okay don't do that but yeah I mean it's just my like I'm way more excited like even right now like we're we're podcasting we're talking about this I'm like ah I kind of want to wrap this up and like go just walk around a little bit and shoot definitely like that it's more exciting to be and I hate shooting downtown. Like I hate it. Every week I'm like I hate those I don't and part of me is like hate everything here.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

And I and I am like I you know some of it feels old too but I want to I want to continue to shoot in places that are hyper familiar to me yeah that I maybe even feel negatively about and remain open yeah and see if the universe reveals something that I can try to capture. Yeah. Um yeah I I feel the same way. So you know to wrap up the Gary thing I just felt like with all these undeveloped roles he was so fixated on being in the world and capturing these moments and the therapy of it the you know the the the magic of it all you know all of the value it provides to someone when they're out they're present they're on an adventure they're they're they're trying to you know find a moment that they can they can capture on film and and it was less about racing home and getting all that stuff developed and I'm sure as he piled up roles because he you know that one famous shot of all the women on the park bench you know he shot like five or six stills of that and and that one was one of those stills. I think so he's he's he's got a lot of stuff uh in in in on those roles of film that he most likely knows he's not gonna use and as that piles up because you're spending more and more time on the actual street it becomes so overwhelming to think of even starting to tackle developing them to pay for it.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

You get into you get into territory too where you're like there's nothing really good in here. Yeah and like just got to keep shooting like it's it's like within it's like even we we were talking about this podcast. It's like you know we are we kind of came into this episode with an awareness like yeah we kind of haven't been pitching our best stuff or like we just have you know it's kind of a lull period it's like but we've been doing it for long enough that we're like yeah it'll eventually it'll shift. Right. I mean I know that's not like the idea for shows but it's like we're not doing this to you know have the biggest podcast or like have the highest like obviously we want like a semblance of quality for our own like craft perspective but it's do we get something like I've gotten something out of this conversation. Yeah. And it's like that's all the metric I'm interested in and then yeah we're putting them up and sharing them. But yeah it's like with Gary it's like you you wonder if he's just like there is no like at least with this there's like the the idea that like oh well we want to get it posted like Gary wasn't really doing a lot of gallery work at that point. Right. Um was he just like ah I'll get there like eventually you know this kid'll grow up and I'll I'll get to like really put the focus on the work again and you know then I'll I'm sure there's some good stuff in here but I haven't quite gotten there. I'll know it when I do and you know maybe it's just putting that off but I'd also contend that like photography is not really like you're not like a brilliant photographer and then not yeah and like I don't think the idea of like the brilliant photograph like all the compositions are perfect. And it's like it's a little over overdone and like obviously the compositions are and just what what's in the frame and all of that it's not like Gary unlearned that so I I'd wager there's probably a lot of great work in there that sure has just been I don't know I I feel like a lot of photographers shoot a lot of slop. Well I mean uh it's baseball like the the best hitters miss the ball six six out of ten times and he's the digital he's the digital like they they call him the first digital photographer for a reason. Like he the guy would just roll through through roll and so yeah I mean I'm sure 36 he's like ah got one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:36

And that's probably a hit rate where he's happy with I think they talk about how many rolls he shot in a year it was like something like 600 and Dottie and I did the math I was like that's like eighteen thousand dollars a year in today's dollars just to shoot and develop film.

SPEAKER_01 53:50

Yeah. Yeah I mean and he's developing himself he's probably bulk loading film as cheap as can be back then you could go to Walgreens get it developed high quality prints for nothing. Yeah I mean yeah definitely a different time he wouldn't do color because it was like he did a little bit but yeah he's he has great color work like amazing color work all those all those obstacles and there's his color book is amazing yeah and I found a copy of it in a bookstore in um I think Solana California oh really and it was 300 I was like I think I want to buy this but I don't think I can yeah did you no I didn't I was like I know can I borrow it? Dude I I wanted it so bad there were three or four Winnie Grand books I hadn't seen in all of them were over all of them were over 200. They're expensive. I've I've uh I almost bought a copy of Public Relations for my birthday but it sold before I could could see how much was that one it was 30. Oh which is why it was the only one I've seen like someone maybe didn't know what it was I I have no idea. Yeah I I've got like search alerts on certain Gary's one of them yeah but it's the only one I've ever seen that's like yeah anywhere reasonable but I mean yeah I I just think um um yeah I mean the guy just shot a unheard of amount of yeah photographs and you're gonna miss a lot. Yeah I mean the baseball the analogy's overused but it's yeah like the best baseball players I mean yeah it's like if you hit 300 you're a hall of famer.

YouTube Photo Culture And Empathy

SPEAKER_02 55:28

The Hall of Fame. If you if you miss 70% of the time you're a hall of famer.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

Yeah yeah and I you know photography is a lot like that you just have to keep kind of stepping up and and doing it um question yes you've been following like YouTube photography for a while yeah um do you feel like it's like I don't know what's your read how's it how has it evolved for you like your perception of the community or that community or whatever um over the the last like 10 years I don't know that it's evolved a ton um god everybody's calling me today I don't know that it's evolved a ton like has your perception of it changed or like so what I what I think um it's just funny like we've seen so many I wouldn't call them eras but yeah you have like elder statesmen who are like 28 years old now it's like yeah they've been OGs. Yeah they're OGs and it's like yeah 28 but it's had enough time to cycle like you kind of know who is yeah I'm serious. A lot of people just checked out and just like I'm not gonna do this anymore. Like what was the guy's name?

SPEAKER_02 56:51

Um my buddy Casey this is his favorite he's probably listening to this episode too shout out to shout out to Casey um uh negative feedback do you remember that guy he's like um I think he was British and he had a shaved head yeah I never watched kind of thin he was legit like he he was really good and he just stopped making I don't know if he he might be dead for all I know hope not hope he's still making work because he was very very talented but yeah I mean overall you know I I am such a uh you know where I really just try to see the positive in what everybody's doing whether their content is more gear centric whether it's um even if like their their personality you know like I was watching a video by this one guy that had you know a cap on and he was really muscular and kind of some you know kind of cool tattoos and he was shooting like this commercial work for a big brand out in Africa and you know part of me wants to be a little bit negative like like that guy's like a photo bro you know like like but I'm just like you know I sit there and finance bro like I I I like I like part of me wants to find something to be critical developer yeah and I'm like it's just you know he just he has a he has a different lifestyle than yours but he's still you know and yeah maybe he shoots wide open on a rangefinder you know and and that's you like oh oh you know oh why would you know like like I'm just like I who you know he's a nice guy he's making great points like I could sit there and go negative because his video's about the gear that he's gonna take on this uh work trip he's going on and he's got six Leica bodies out and I'm just like you know but the part of you that doesn't have six like a bodies or you know the three that I have which is a you know a pan two panel lux and a and a obviously an M11 I'm like I wouldn't want somebody to I don't want people to think that about me because I splurged on an M11. Yeah. You know so I just sit there and go a bit of empathy on it. Just just settle down. You don't you know and I wasn't worked up but I'm like I I found myself like wanting to be to lean into some negativity about it. And it's like the first video I've ever watched of the guy. So it's what it is I'm like I don't want people to do this to me when they watch my stuff you know like oh this guy filmed his CRT with a camcorder and now he thinks he's uh hot shit you know yeah yeah um yeah you're you know what I mean you're shooting on a 60 megapixel M11 but then listen this video is made with a four-bit 1996 cannon camcorder like way to go dude you're super artsy yeah like I I so I so you know I I just sort of like watch watch their their stuff and you know everything from Jason at Granny Days to Kyle McDougall to even Tatiana doing you know sort of the the the overviews of different photographers and their style and breaking down their imagery and I just find value some aspect of value in all of it. Sometimes it's just you know it's nice to watch Kyle's you know Sony shots of him out in the landscape and you know shooting medium format you know uh with landscape stuff you know and and yeah maybe it's not my personal preference or something I gravitate toward you know so I just yeah I I just have a an overly an an uh overly positive outlook on each channel and um find myself trying to gravitate towards the creators that mirror my intentions I think um and if I feel like someone is a little too commercial for me or a little too gear centric um or sort of like partner brand partnerships like there's a little heavy on that stuff there's no judgment there's no dismissal of them as a human being it's just I'm gonna you know sort of vote with my time and attention to uh some other creators that where I don't I don't feel that that's that's as much the case. But I also get it I'm like look it's fun to get a hassle blad that you get to borrow or they give you for free. It's it's nice to go out and take photos. I maybe I don't want to make content where people know I'm getting free hassle blads but I certainly would love to shoot with one. Yeah um like I would love to try it.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:30

If the opportunity presented itself then plugging the I don't know why um I think it's interesting just yeah watching it kind of evolve and devolve and change form over time.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:45

Yeah but and I just you know there's so many different pressures at play people's need to make money the the chasing um chasing the pack and wanting to keep up with acquiring this gear or that gear and and that's an element of the M11 with me. I have several acquaintances and even a few friends you included and I'm not saying that like you having the M9 and the M4 there is a little bit of a feeling of kind of being left out.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:14

Yeah it's it's really it does factor in it's that um you are the people you spend the most time with and you start to emulate them and yeah and I a hundred percent do. I mean I I mean I think it's subconscious even I think there's like subconscious things that you just when you're around somebody a lot like obviously like we spend time with each other because there's like a mutual appeal and a mutual respect and a mutual like there's characteristics that we appreciate about each other. Absolutely yeah and like you know it's the same thing with our significant others with other you know other friends in our lives it's like you look at people and you're like I really like this that they do. Yeah um and I want to emulate that right I want in on it. Yeah like oh this is cool this or this is interesting or and yeah I think that's just part of and that's a good thing. I think it's not a bad thing at all. That's a good thing that like exposes you to new ideas and new things and and I think you know we're all guilty of it. I think when it's like guilty is a bad that's a bad framing but yeah we're all susceptible.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:20

I think that there's an emotional landscape that is healthier that makes you get something like like you writing apps with Claude I'm like I kind of want to figure out how to do that. That inspires me to want to see like what how I could train my brain to think this thing that isn't working on my computer or this tool that I wish I could have how can I how can I climb inside that world and get the value out of it that you're getting and it's similar with the the Leica it's not well Alex and Brandon and um Cam and all these guys have Leikas and when I see them or Alex is out shooting I feel inadequate because I'm on a Digicam or I'm on my G my know my GR digital too um like I want to I want to I want to be you know at their level or have the tools that they have access to. My ancient Leikas. And I think if it was like if if the decision to acquire something was from a a a less healthy place of envy or jealousy and um or one upping like I want to okay oh you got an M9 I just got an M11 buddy. Yeah yeah you know like like this stuff gets in there. I don't like that you know and I know that that does happen to somebody I don't fault them for it. But you know uh I at least feel like with me getting one it was sort of all these things coming together. And like I said there is an element of it that is wanting to share the experience of using those tools with other people especially when I'm with them. Yeah. My buddy Brandon in Salt Lake when we go to NAB in Las Vegas like I'm excited that we're both going to be using these camera systems to to to have fun together.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:58

Yeah.

Final Thoughts And Going To Shoot

SPEAKER_02 1:04:59

Now I've been on plenty of photo walks with him with a shitty old digital Leica or you know other cameras that I'm using and there is a sense of pride in being like well I'm gonna see what I can get as far as a photo goes with this old Canon Digicam. Like is it going to look like your photos no but you could argue that it might be just as good if not some of them better just in a different way there's something else about them the vibe of the photo the look of it the grain the this or that what you know whatever. You know there's um so yeah I I don't um I don't uh deny that there are less uh a desirable forces at play in in these things in that transition goes back to the YouTube channel like I want to have a successful YouTube channel. How do I steal the techniques that these people are using to sort of fast track myself to this this idea that I have Of what it means to be successful because I want my wife to be happy with where I am. I want my in-laws to think that I'm doing a good job. I want to make money and and have people be like happy for me. Um, or how are you doing all this, you know, or you know, whatever. Um, so yeah, all that plays in.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:21

We're about to get the hell out of here and go take some pictures. Yeah, I'm I'm itching to kind of get out and about three o'clock. So let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:30

All right, let's go.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:31

It had been a golden afternoon, and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer songs.