69. What If Your Best Work Needs Less Sharing

This week we got into something we'd been circling for a while: what happens to the work when the work and the content share the same camera, the same hours, the same brain. We used the image of food coloring dropped into water — once it's in, you can't pull it back out — and followed that wherever it went. Which turned out to be pretty far: the scarcity feeling that keeps you posting, the fantasy that a YouTube channel is a path to an artistic life, whether conflict and economic pressure are actually what fuel the thing rather than what threaten it.

We also spent time with a more slippery question — what is it you're actually after, and have you looked at that honestly enough to know? We talked about photographers who worked monastically and ones who burned through marriages and health, about Vivian Maier nannying in obscurity, about whether patronage would free you or just kill the plant in a different way. And we kept landing on the same uncomfortable place: you can logic together a roadmap, but that's not what gets you anywhere.

We closed on what we're calling is-ness — that quality in certain photographs where something just is, and you feel it, and there's no accounting for it. It's part of what drew us into this conversation in the first place. We didn't solve anything. But we got closer to knowing what we're actually asking. -Ai

 If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode. 

Links To Everything: 

Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT 

Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT 

Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT 

Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT 

Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG 

Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG 

Transcript

Content Pressure And The Audience

SPEAKER_00 0:01

In a golden afternoon. And I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again within somebody in some place.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

I think one of the forces at play in you know kind of the separation between uh uh a content creator or someone whose maybe primary focus is creating content, but they maybe you can see in them, you know, a desire to have more of a focus on making work, um or the capacity for for them feeling like they're someone like this it always sounds corny, but just like that person feels like an artist to me. Like they're connected to their view, their their wonder and curiosity, and how they're looking at the world and creating work that connects to that um in ways that they're aware or not aware. I think for me, in feeling the content machine, the thing that I didn't expect, especially when creating some of these other, you know, I I thought of them at the time as more of a project. Like I I'm just gonna document this process of collecting vinyl records. Not that I think that there's any artistry in just like finding cool records and telling people what you got, um, or even the photo videos channel and now the other photography channel. Part of me is like, I just wanna make videos that kind of because I won't go too on too much of a side. A lot of the impulse behind it too was I think about having lost my dad and how cool it would be to have this yeah, like archive of yeah, this archive of even if it's content-y, like this archive of him doing his life. Yeah. Um, obviously it's a it's a sort of fabricated and performative, and you know, there's there's like a there's like a uh a packaging to it, but I would, you know, I'd take any of it, you know, to to see that, to see that. Yeah, I'm not gonna go dump in. So part of like those things factor into to making those channels, but the thing that it was unexpected to me across all of them, the ones that feel like they're a little bit more towards I I want this to be a little bit more on the art side than the content side for me personally, even if it ends up feeling like content when you watch the finished project product versus stuff that's like obviously content, like hey, here's this stuff about Final Cut Pro, and let me teach you how to do these three things. Here's the shtick to the video, and yeah, the the thing that really sinks its claws into you. You might think, well, I gotta make money, or you know, I gotta keep my bank account and all that stuff factors in, but there's just this feeling like these people are waiting for me to make something. And so, you know, for me, something in my brain makes me go, I'm gonna lose them if I don't keep it somewhat regular, or um, you know, there's just like this feeling of of self-imposed pressure. Like I haven't made it. It's almost like it's this project.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

It's scarcity related in a sense. Like you have something to lose.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

It's like watering your plant earlier.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

If you don't do it, yeah, it's gonna die.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:47

And I don't mean like my channel's gonna die. No, I mean it's just like something is gonna be lost if you're done.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

There's like an element of control to it, probably where you're yeah, you're trying to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:01

But then on the with the work side of things, I mean, yeah, you could probably argue that some artists feel pressure to come up with their next thing, especially if they get get pulled into the commerce side of the art world. You know, their first show was a big success, everybody's waiting for their follow-up, and this happens for I'm sure for photographers, painters, bands, you know, like when's that follow up? When's that next record gonna come that feels like the first one?

SPEAKER_01 4:29

I mean, yeah, it's any any kind of artistic endeavor, because the environment that we release that artistic endeavor to is kind of focused on. I mean, it's just kind of focused on a linear track. Like, what is the next thing?

SPEAKER_03 4:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

And so if this was good, the next thing will be better, right? Because that's how that's how things progress, and that's how I've been taught that this is supposed to go.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

And there's something with someone like Alex Oath where you don't, I don't like I don't obviously I have no interaction with him, it's just what I see on Instagram or YouTube or you know, what you you know, a in a museum exhibit or something, but there doesn't feel like there's some sense of hurry in feeding the thing he's created.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Yeah, he doesn't care. Uh well it's yeah, in from my observation, like one, I don't think I don't think uh good art is ever gonna come from good art. Good and art, it's like I'm using the laziest words and I I probably need to be more precise. Meaningful or I mean so like we kind of use like yeah what it what what did we use? Like um what was the word that we just kind of used for escape like um I mean i just the higher whatever the high and even that like we're creating like a stupid structure of yeah but just something that is individual and that is universal at like at the same time and that doesn't really singular yet you know. It doesn't have any kind of um preemptive notion or need to satisfy like that's uh if that is the you know the pinnacle or even I mean words like pinnacle and things like that, and I'm talking about like I'm you know, against the idea of like a linear progression of art, but you know, just something that is is um I don't know, just like give it a thumbs up. Like I don't I know, yeah. What I I I need to I need to think of more precise language to describe something a little to describe it a little more effectively, but um even that I'm like oh more effective, less effective, like just stupid. Um but the I don't think that comes from that feeling that you described. I think that's kind of that's a dangerous thing because you're not gonna I mean yeah, you can you can create content and you can create and then we can get into discussions about, you know, well, what about consistency and what about you making, you know what what do people like people who release a lot, they're they're like prolific, right? Um so we can talk about those qualities or things like that, and that's a different discussion, but I don't think these two things are the same thing, and I think what you're getting at is yeah, there's like a pressure to come out with something, and I don't think I think that is kind of a fear driven position. It is a fear-driven position. And I don't think I don't think anything, yeah, anything thumbs up is gonna come from that, uh, you know. Right. Um, I don't yeah, I don't think anything that's um and it's it's I think it's somewhat self-imposed.

When Art Meets The Content Machine

SPEAKER_03 8:17

I mean I think I think it's irrational to a certain extent, you know. I think I think if you're providing value to an audience through the content that you make, whether it's sporadic or prolific, um and I think I think there's a a difference too, like we're talking about something very specific and kind of like we're talking about creating just making sure that was gone.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

We're talking about something very specific. Speaking of here, artistic output, right? Or whatever that is, whatever that that weird, hard to define thing is. And I think there's also just like you could put out content that satisfies a need or an audience or something like that. Is a different goal, yeah, and you can achieve that and not even ever cross paths with the other thing. And those are two different things. I think the the the problems come when you start to cross the two things, and um you you can I think the issues come up when and again I think I um when the the issues start to appear is when you're yeah, you're trying to use one thing, like the more commercial idea to justify the other thing, the more artful output or whatever. And yeah, I I don't know though. Um, I mean I would love to see examples of people who have kind of navigated that yeah more effectively than myself, but yeah, my experience has been that again, that's just my experience. Everybody that's the other thing, it's just yeah, everybody's experience is all that matters to that to them. Like your own experience is all that matters to you. Right. And you can listen to other people's thoughts and feelings and emotions and experiences and you know, things that they've learned and doesn't really it's never gonna apply one-to-one. And that's a misconception we have in our world today.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

But I think you know, the interesting thing in what led to us hitting record, because there was for those listening and watching, there was you know, conversation ahead of time that kind of led to this to where we hit record, uh, a general feeling of like what role does the creation of content play in helping or hurting the creation of work. And then I wondered for those photographers that we really hold on high, you know, many of them overlap between the two of us.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

We called it like the devotional tier or whatever, like if we were trying to classify in a sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:20

Well, and I was wondering, so then then aside from content, what impact did having having to make commercial work or choosing to make commercial work have on their ability to make work? You know, you could argue the money aspect of it helped facilitate that, or um, did the creative energy that was spent on making commercial work negatively impact their personal work? Um and then are there examples of uh, you know, as content creators aspire to be artists as well, once we've had 10, 15, 20, 30 years of people managing both things in their lives, are we gonna have an example, or do we already, yeah, of someone who makes a lot of content? It's more out, buddy. You got the system out. Wow. Um you know, where where that person is a prolific content creator, but then also or does are they mutually exclusive? I think I don't have a yeah a assertion on that, but uh, you know, it's again something that I wonder.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Well we'll definitely have cases where we look back and we s you almost say, oh look, they've been doing this the whole time, and then you can kind of contextualize again, it it's hard because you're you're you're classifying somebody else's output, and that's never really a good way to go about anything, I don't think. And um I don't even know if this is like a useful or you know reasonable conversation to be having, but it's you know, there's there's the uh the chance that you'll look back and you almost give somebody the benefit of the doubt because it's oh look, they've been doing this for 30 years. You know, this stuff's not that bad. Um I think we do that with like certain musicians and things like that. Yeah. Time kind of I don't know. I also I I don't think I mean I don't think art should be held in some extreme high esteem, but at the same time I do. Yeah. Um, and I like I believe both of those things fully at the same time. And um I think that it's easy to go and look back on something after a long period of time has passed and kind of re-evaluate it through a lens that might not be again. It I I think I the the phrase that fits it well is giving them the benefit of the doubt. Right. And you're like, oh. And I don't know if that's how I do think that things can evolve over time. Like maybe you look back and you see something that you just never saw because you had, you know, yeah, maybe somebody's creating amazing stuff and they get written off as like a quote unquote content creator for right 30 years, and then you look back and you're like, oh wow. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean, the food coloring metaphor comes to mind again, though. I just don't know how well those two things ever mix.

Commercial Work Day Jobs And Purity

SPEAKER_03 14:57

Right. Um and the question I have is then let's say there is someone who's making work and they have just a sort of mundane day job. And I don't mean it's not interesting to them or they don't find value in it or they hate it or anything like that, but it just seems I say mundane in contrast to the excitement I think about if someone is making work, especially with photography. So, for example, if Vivian Meyer, she's yeah a nanny, right? And she's making work in her spare time while she's nannying, all that stuff. Nobody, at least as far as we know, knows about her. I don't know that she aggressively pursued trying to get her work in published or any of that stuff, just kind of did it monastically. At least that's the impression from what we know. What impact does you know having to earn a living and being a nanny and this sort of like disconnected work from the work or um, you know, uh there was there's one photographer, I forget his name. I watched a short documentary on YouTube about him, and I believe his wife worked full-time as a teacher, and he was a photographer. And I I don't mean to assume that he didn't have any other ways of earning additional revenue, but the the feeling I got from the documentary was she took care of revenue and he made work. Yeah. And he went out every single day, walked miles and miles and miles through these natural and human interfered with landscapes, and photographed the juxtaposition between nature and sort of the human destruction that was occurring in in nature. Amazing photographs, really beautiful work. Um, but he seemed to like if his wife was earning the revenue that covered their like religious responsibilities, he was sort of independently making work without any kind of pressure to earn to earn a living. Um, and I could be wrong about that, but obviously that's how scenario everybody wants. Right. So, how you know how does that environment foster better or more meaningful work versus someone like you're saying, like the content creator being so close, yeah, and you're holding a camera, you're taking pictures, you're making videos, like it it bleeds in literally like what you're saying with this adding food coloring to the water metaphor. If the work making the work is water and content is food coloring, it's and you can't separate them with that bleed. Yeah. But does being a nanny and making work that's not even food coloring? It's it's it's the the water is there and is pure.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Yeah, you know what I mean. No, I think about it a lot of like Yeah. Like I I think about this at uh you know, obviously I do something that's very kind of you know creatively not that different from content creation in the overlap. And there's times where I'm like, oh well that's kind of nice, and like you get to use similar muscles and things like that, but yeah, it's at the same time, and then it obviously, yeah, you don't have you like you you would think that getting to work the skill is better than not getting to, right? That's what you would assume. And I mean that first of all, I just I don't know what the yeah, I don't know. Like that's obvious, but my intuition is like yeah, sometimes I I mean obviously the best case scenario just being full attention to the work, right? Um, which is hard because you know what the days days are pretty long when you start breaking them down into like micro you try giving full attention to anything. Yeah it's not as it's not as easy as you might think it would be.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

Um that makes me wonder then, is the is the work fueled by that conflict between these responsibilities? You know, I have to earn a living, whether it's through commercial photography, content creation, or you know, being a nanny or a copywriter or something else. And does that does that inform the work in meaningful ways? And obviously it's a case-by-case basis for some it doesn't, for some it might, you know, there's no way to like nail down some kind of formula or whatever. But you know, did JD Salinger in in isolation, um, self self-exile in a sense m you know, nobody knows. Did he did he what I assume is being able to just focus on writing? I I have to imagine he wasn't like a postal worker or something, uh, you know, like to to make some money to to cover his expenses.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

I mean, there really is no like just focus on just focus on this or that. Because it is you're you're translating what you see. So if you're just like in a room constantly, there's nothing to translate. I mean, you can translate the unconscious or like go within, sure, I guess, and you know, it's like infinite.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

Try to mind your imagination, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Um, and you know, there's definitely people who can do that, but I like for me, the experience has always been external. I worry about obviously when you're spending time working, the thing that concerns me more is probably just the likelihood that you're fooling yourself or that you're doing something and you're justifying a lack of real output or of you know authentic output, and you're justifying that because the thing that you're doing is well, you're like, well, I'm getting some of that here, at least I'm not letting it die. Yeah. And you know, if you can do there's definitely people that can probably create and not do that, but I think that's probably the kind of the the I think that's like the equilibrium that most people are going to use it as a justification, and and and they're gonna be like, well, I'm doing this, so like I'm working towards something. And even worse, if you're like, oh man, yeah, I've turned this into a perfect, you know, this thing over here pays this, and this thing over here. Yeah. And if those two are the same, then that's really good. That it's obviously like the ideal situation. Yeah. But yeah, you can get very we're really good at telling ourselves stories. That's kind of all we do is we take things that are indescribable or un uncorrelated, or just you know, you know, we take these all of these ideas that are just floating around and we try to put them into some narrative that makes sense. And um we're always gonna do that. It's what a story is, and our entire society is structured on stories. And it's also the most dangerous thing that we can do, I think. And that you we're gonna try to yeah, we're gonna try to make it like, oh well I'm doing this or I'm doing this and this is why and this justifies this. And then it's kind of pulling away from your um your potential output on something that is maybe more I guess really the question is just ask yourself and I I sound like I'm all over the place or at least that's what it sounds like in my head. And I might be and I apologize if I am but it's like I think you need to ask yourself what do I want to accomplish and why or what do I what it what is the what is the point here and why and really think about that. And I I don't mean write it in a journal and be like okay got it this is my goal I mean really like exhaust all possibilities and get down to something or some things where you're like this feels right and then keep looking at it for a decade and like see if it still feels right. Yeah. And it might not and you might not it might just you know obviously situations and things change. But don't just pick like an arbitrary ambition and chase after it. Definitely try to why am I doing like do I want to be an artist? Do I want to be well known do I like all of these things are there's there's little differences to them and like what is an artist maybe like though you know defining what that is is probably the first step because just taking it at face value my definition isn't your definition isn't 10 of the viewers' definitions. So figuring out what that means and then you know okay what does it look like to do that? Yeah. And because I can sit here and be like well this is what I think it means and this is what I think detracts from it and then somebody else can be like no way and I think this and we're having an argument and we're really not talking about the same thing at all. Yeah. And that's the danger. But from where I'm coming from it's like the purity of the work I think gets contaminated by almost the comfortable nature of creating a piece of in this case content or I mean yeah and I think about it with with work and things like that too. And you know it I wouldn't say scares me but it's you know it's there. The thoughts there.

SPEAKER_03 24:50

Well the thing that interests me about like someone having a more you know sort of traditional employment is that it has usually it has it's in a container you know it's usually like a eight to four or nine to five kind of container obviously we think about work depending on you know if it's something as simple as you know stamping sheet metal versus you're a you know a high level executive at a uh human resource department or something you know you're gonna have bleed over into personal life or outside of that nine to five container I think the interesting thing about content creation is it tends to and it's certainly on a spectrum for different creators but it tends to be all consuming. And and I don't mean that you're literally thinking about it 24-7, but there are some people that bring their families into the stuff that they make. I was just watching a creator that I know and have met and you know he's in a sort of a recreational vehicle build out van and he's at the beach and he's working in the back of the van on whatever video he has to do while his kid and wife are on the beach. And it's like you know it's great that this allows you to spend time with them. And you're obviously taking breaks you're probably running out and playing talking to them whatever um but they're in the video like we know this is how you know you've pulled you've pulled them into the characters in them yeah and even if they're not like having big speaking parts in the video like your personal life is part of the content it helps create that bond with your audience the trust you know the brand all that kind of stuff but there's so much bleed that you know and I don't know if if you you wonder about that food coloring water analogy based on this but my feeling is it it it bleeds into so much of your life that what room does making work have? Yeah how do you how do you protect the time in your day even if you think you're making work you're probably subconsciously making content.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Yeah that is and that's the problem is you're just gonna serve the easier master.

SPEAKER_03 27:16

Yeah um I mean yeah or or are you you know even when you're making the work are you like oh well these you know these are some these are some issues I'm having with the Leica these are some things I love about it.

The Fantasy Of YouTube As Escape

SPEAKER_01 27:28

That's a good idea for a video you know but you're out in the middle of nowhere trying to yeah trying to well and you're even even like your case is unique where you kind of do make you make a lot of your living from that like the content side of things. And I think a lot of people it's like they might already work in I to five and they have this fantasy that and I I use fantasy like I mean I you know even if if somebody asks you like hey would you do content creation like should I do content creation you would be like it's kind of just like I don't know what is your life like like you can't just ask that question. It's like what are your sensibilities? What do you like how do you feel how do you handle situations there's a lot that goes into it what is your family situation like what is your domestic situation like um and I I think there's certain people where it's like don't even waste your time like you're and I don't mean that disrespectfully but it's like like if you want fame then do fame but say you want fame and go after that. Right. If you want to be an artist or whatever like I I put quotations around that word because it's hard to take it it's hard to take it seriously but if you want to do that it's like then do that and a lot of people there there's like this fantasy for sale of well you know I'm working at 95 and I hate it and I want to be an artist. It's like okay I'm gonna start a YouTube channel and I'm gonna create content and that's gonna give me this and then I'm gonna be an artist. And it's like no you're gonna create a YouTube channel and you're gonna take away another 50% of your energy and then you're gonna be doing two things with 50% of your energy each maybe and this doesn't this isn't obviously this doesn't hold exactly this isn't even a good like um description of what this is but you know you're taking away part part of your your energy stockpile or whatever that is and your focus whatever you want to call it and you're you're distilling it into these things and then you might end up just doing two things that don't actually serve what you want. Right. And so you might be better off just you know instead of and then adding a third thing or what I just you might be better off just being like okay I want to be an artist and you know you keep your nine to five job and then you you figure out how to make that other thing other thing work. I think it's just situational so much and I my my problem is yeah it's just it's a very easy thing to be like I'm gonna do YouTube channel I'm gonna make money from the YouTube channel I'm gonna be an artist. Yeah and it's like and then also it's like oh I'm gonna do it like really you want fame but you're choosing the path of photographer you're choosing the path of as a way to get to the fame and it's like well then you're you're I I don't even mean this disrespectfully it's impossible to say without meaning disrespectfully but you're like whoring the art or whoring we've talked about this you're we talked about hijacking.

SPEAKER_03 30:43

Yeah we've talked about it appropriating or hijacking an art form you might have to realize you're doing it as a tool to put you on a trajectory for for fame yeah you know uh a hundred percent I mean and and obviously if that's like a I don't want to like dissuade people from doing and part of it is and most of it is subconscious I think because it's just people not thinking through what they actually want out of a thing out of a situation but and I yeah I don't want to dis I don't want to dissuade anybody from doing anything. Like I'm just worried about kind of what I'm worried about and you know um but we are talking about it on a public forum and I it's just kind of how I see the I I do think that that's part of you know that is there are many people who are working in what we perceive of at predominantly as an art form whether it's acting um photography screenwriting screen writing painting sculpting there are I'm sure plenty of examples and certain ones have more than others especially when there's uh a lot of brand power behind it Hollywood has a lot of brand power over something like New York art scene New York art world you know but that is also a big powerful presence yeah yeah and there are going to be some people who set their sights on ascending to fame and power power and fortune and influence and whatever you know those things are through that mechanism um you know I'm gonna use the craft of acting to become famous you know and you see it sort of strategically you know um a musician then gets cast in a movie to expand their audience increase revenue build their brand then they go into fashion you know there's plenty of examples of people too like started out on that trajectory and it's something like woke up inside of them and they ended up giving a real contribution to the world yeah from the thing. So it's that's why I say I don't want to dissuade sure like you're gonna have that that's gonna happen because and there are examples of people that toiled in an art form their entire life that worked a day job or they didn't and nobody ever heard of them they never saw the work amounted to nothing. It amounted to nothing culturally amounted to nothing yeah and then some people where it did after you know posthumously they um were discovered after the fact wasn't the documentary. Well you know obviously Vivian Meyer's an example wasn't like um Emily Dickinson one of the female poets you know I feel like uh their the their work was discovered after their after their passing and it was like this revelation you know and and some of that obviously wasn't their choice to subdue it you know um in the example of Vivian Meyer and and this poet that I'm referring to it certainly could have been cultural mechanisms that oppressed them and kept them from even um being able to pursue uh work in that regard and sometimes you have cultural mechanisms that revive or that yeah that give a new yeah so it's funny yeah thinking about like the Winnechrand not not saying Winnegram falls into this category but yeah you have people who are just like oh well I really like what he does here with the form the figure in the middle of the space yeah and it's like you how much do you get paid to what do you what is it that you say you do here like so I think that I you know I I'm just fascinated by all of that and I like to have conversations that revolve around the the curiosity about how all that works without sitting here saying we're gonna figure this out like if you're a content creator this is what happens if you try to make work yeah if you have you know like we're gonna like nail it down.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

Yeah yeah um I mean and again it's it's unique to everybody I think we're prescribing maybe like we're we're obviously blanketing and looking at the the hole and you know what when we say like this is what happens it's obviously there's gonna be somebody that has made it work or something or or if you're this or doing this you are not this that yeah like this is it is not possible. And that's kind of why I'm like this is might be a pointless conversation but at the same time you there's definitely things that you can take away from it and be like if anything it's just make sure that like take whatever you're doing seriously and be thoughtful about it. And make sure you're not just doing it because it's the thing that is expected or because you know you've logicked together some roadmap. Yeah because that's not that's not gonna be what gets you where you're you know that's putting together a logic map yeah can be a helpful exercise but it's not there's no way that that's gonna that's gonna give you the best outcome all the time. And I think it's yeah it's just uh I I do think oh I'm I'm curious though like what is your state of the union right now um as you kind of shift more towards I feel like this is kind of woken up more of the I want to create more than I want to consume bug in you and what do you what do you see like have your have have any consumption habits changed or have any creation habits?

Conflict Patronage And What It Costs

SPEAKER_03 36:58

You've been selling cameras like a fiend I know that yeah yeah I mean I I um I don't know that that the degree to which I consume has really changed you know for me you know um I do take in a lot and it certainly is focused around both of the worlds I'm primarily pri primarily interested in photography as an art form and I don't watch I don't consume stuff about content creation but I consume content that's about things that I like or am interested in. But there is definitely on the consumption side a real hunger for consuming other people's work whether it's Kent Kent's book here a novel um going to the photography exhibit at the Jocelyn like I I want to have meaningful consumption of artists' work um and that always fuels me to create boundaries between making content that yes some of it is related you know uses the same tools and um uh talks about an aspect of the world of photography but to just be like I'm gonna be out making photos that are not going to then and that process is not going to get sucked into the content machine obviously it's gonna have an impact on it. I'm gonna talk about my feelings or relate something about a camera and the settings or this or that like there's no way for there not to be some overlap there. And if it's to the detriment of making work so be it. Like I, you know at this point I'm not sort of like well I'm gonna cut off how I earn a living because it's more important to me to have a more sort of unpolluted or pure yeah process uh for making work. Do you get something out of the like if somebody came to you I mean this is just a dumb but you know some like if somebody was like hey I want to finance you to make photography I'm gonna give you a hundred thousand dollars a year and you know my own personal grant you know right would you would sort of exist in the form of some grants definitely Guggenheim or whatever but yeah would patron yeah would you continue to make make things or do you think it's I'd be open you know part of me would almost be like let's see if I if they funded me for a year and that not that they would ban me from making content but I would be like well revenue is no longer an issue for the year. The only concern would be at the end of the year did the plant die? Did the content plant die? And if they're not going to fund me indefinitely or it's not enough money like is this a real risk yeah you know but I don't know it could be something where it's like well whatever like I'll spin it all back up and you know plant a new seed or I you know whatever.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

I think it's interesting I would be tempted what you said about um you know obviously the the dream or the like idealized scenarios yeah you you don't have to work you just have money. Right I think it's interesting what you said about the conflict kind of being the driver. Yeah and um like you hear a lot of talk about like oh well when AI replaces everything and you know you have to everybody's on universal basic income and it's like this is a really like I always laugh when I hear this because I'm like this is just the stupidest one plus one equals two argument. Like look at how obvious this is yeah and I I think it's just not a you're just there's missing so much nuance but it's like oh well everybody is like gonna be on universal basic income and then creativity is going to flourish. And yeah it's like I wonder how much of how much of that like you almost need the conflict to drive the creation and I I I do really believe that I mean again having preface that I'm very external and where I drive like derive inspiration from and derive you know energy from yeah um I mean I'm like a super introverted person but like very much so like the inspiration that I get comes from just like listening and observing the world. And um yeah I kind of don't if yeah you you take away a lot of that conflict and everybody just has I mean I we're we're humans we're gonna create conflict one way or another. Sure. We're gonna find conflict it's never there's never gonna be a state of just it just doesn't exist. It's not in the It's not in our nature. No. Um but yeah I think like it's it's a a really interesting thing that I think m we give less credit for than we should that the act of and so then it almost it almost doesn't make sense to complain about it because you just accept it like yeah well this is kind of what's given energy to this yeah and there's no point complaining about it. You just do the things and then see what comes from it and like no point in wasting energy conceptualizing it or to a certain extent but I do yeah I mean I that's a that's a really powerful insight there of like yeah does the the need to you know provide kind of inspire the yeah so maybe it's just how we're perceiving that is kind of the derogatory force at at play there. Potentially perception of that and we're just wasting time on that negative perception. So just move on and just make stuff anyways doesn't matter. Right.

SPEAKER_03 43:42

Um like the situation is what it is yeah yeah I think uh again I enjoy wondering about how they all intermingle and coexist or what one takes away from What the cost of this one thing is, you know, I always think about it sort of in um in those terms. If I'm gonna do this thing, what's it gonna cost me? Yeah. And if you were to do the other thing, you know, uh fully immersed in an artistic lifestyle, is it gonna cost you, you know, for Gary Winnegrant? It probably cost him two marriages. Yeah, yeah. Um, it could have cost him his health. Yeah. You know, um, you know, he passed away relatively young. Um there's always those kind of um, those kind of costs with decisions that you make. And you know, I might get to a point where I'm like, I've you know, my choice is to try to earn a living and maybe uh maybe some more vain desi vain things that I desire, consciously or subconsciously, um has built this ecosystem of content creation that I come to realize in a year, five years, ten years, the cost is too great. And maybe it relates to making work, maybe it relates to family life, maybe it relates to something else, I don't know. And you you could just I mean, there's plenty of examples of people who just stop doing this thing that they were known for. They just they're out, yeah, and they go do something else or whatever, you know. So I think that that kind of case-rah mentality or let it be, even is sort of just look, you're feeling pulled to do this, pushed to do this, uh uh sort of a pure desire to do this thing, let it all intermingle and just continue to kind of r realize what the cost of those decisions are and adjust and modify as you go.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

Yeah. Yeah. I think there's the nuance that I would add is just yeah, be wary of kind of getting pulled into the same way that it's not valuable to you know spend a lot of time just discussing and thinking about something. I mean it it it is to an extent, and like it's good to verbalize what you're thinking or try to you know dig to the bottom of some kind of emotion. It's good to have conversations with people. Um but just be wary of there is a lot of noise. Yes. And how do you determine what's noise? I I don't know. I mean, yeah, um, I think a lot of times noise tries to dress itself up as something that's I if if you're noise, if all you have to offer is noise, then giving yourself the veneer of something that is worth worth time and attention. Um there's like if you have no ability to create something that is genuinely worth time and attention, then the only survival mechanism is getting really good at creating the veneer of worth. And we live in a world where you know, most I think there's still the same amount of stuff that's probably worth people's time and attention. Um, but we're really good at creating the veneer that, you know, this is worth your time and attention. Absolutely. And it's dangerous, and that I can really that's the only thing that I would push against is and yeah, I mean when I think of content, that's the that's the thing that comes to mind. It's just stuff that's not worth your time.

SPEAKER_03 47:53

Yeah.

Noise Junk Food And Attention

SPEAKER_01 47:54

And there's a lot of that out there. Um, I mean, I've made some of that stuff. Sure. I you could argue that this podcast is that. I mean, I I think we we try to just do what like we've never pretended this is anything other than just two people trying to figure out whatever ideas on our mind, and we're not going to. And you know, you only the listener, the individual listener, will know if they're actually getting something out of this that is worth returning to, and that's about that might change over time too. Yeah, well, listeners come and go, you're at different times in your life, we're at different times in our life. I can't I can't fight about how people relate to, you know. Again, this is just two guys in a coffee shop, essentially, two guys at a bar talking and you're overhearing that. Um and yeah, I but I I just there's so much garbage out there, and it's hard to even tell what is garbage. And when everybody's fighting to sell their thing as not garbage, it's a really it gets difficult, yeah. Yeah, no, and that's that I think that's the only thing that I'm like be careful. If I had to give a yeah, yeah, I don't know. From my experience, be careful. Yeah. It's really hard to create anything meaningful. It's like you're not gonna you know, if you eat like shit, your your you know what you eat makes up your yeah you're you're you're not gonna be in a in a good physical condition or a good physical place if your all the inputs are garbage. Yes. And yeah. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 49:45

Have a healthy diet of what you what you consume. Yeah. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

Be stingy.

SPEAKER_03 49:52

Yeah. We all have our guilty pleasures, yeah, but yeah, if you're not careful, you can really get in the weeds with some garbage out there, some noise, yeah, some junk food. Yeah, yeah. And they're you know, they're gonna hit you hard with it as much as they can. On every end cap, and I mean that also sort of not just literally in a grocery store or gas station, but every NCAP in the on the internet. Yeah. Trying to lure you into the noise. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:30

I do you feel like we're like 50. Do you feel like we gave enough context? Like I don't want to go back and start over and you know, carry out for another 30 minutes or get into another 30-minute thing, but like what kind of started this? And do do we need to give any because it was kind of you talking about something that we started talking about last week with the state of we call it like photography YouTube. Right. And um, and then yeah, we kind of started going down the rabbit hole of well, I showed you Kent Andreessen's book.

SPEAKER_03 51:10

Great. And then we check that out if you uh I'll we'll do a little shot. Kent Andreessen's memory bank, which I found out about from photography YouTube, a YouTuber named Brian Burks.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

I haven't spent a lot of time with it, but yeah, from what I saw, I'm like, yeah, this is cool. I I definitely will spend more time with his his work now.

SPEAKER_03 51:31

And I was able to connect with Kent through Instagram, and we're best friends now. And uh he's actually he's gonna come to the house. He lives in Matt's basement now.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

He's took the spare bedroom. It's his American home.

SPEAKER_03 51:45

But looking at his work led to bringing up a few other photographers who we won't name, and Alex observing that the that the one photographer he was more familiar with had new work out, and Alex just felt like there was sort of something missing from that work for him. Where looking at Kent's sort of immediately identified the presence of something that you you you know that you feel drawn to, uh, if I can speak say that on your behalf. And so that's I don't know about this, can't I? So that made us brought us to a conversation, especially because the photographer that we're referring to also makes content on one of the social media platforms. What effect does that have on the ability to make the work? And um and I don't know that we we didn't immediately go from Alex seeing that person's work and not feeling that thing to going, well, maybe it's because he's he's a content creator and that creates some inability to this isn't like a prescription either. No, yeah, yeah. It's just it's just wondering. And so that wondering, and obviously with me making content too, um pulled us into that conversation.

How This Conversation Started

SPEAKER_01 53:18

I think the biggest thing that I'm just trying to apply to everything in my life is there is there's no everybody's always very concerned. Like, oh, do I like this? Do I need to like this? Do I like this? This is objectively the like objective gets thrown around all the time. And I used to be like, oh, empirically, I want to I want to be the floating camera. Yeah, I want to understand. I just that is it's all in my again, and this is just it's really hard to have a conversation about anything like this because it kind of it there they're these uh it's like it's like irony, it it has a built-in self-defense mechanism. All of these things have built, and that's why they're prevailing. They all have built-in self-defense mechanisms that completely and yeah, you know, if you have a negative force with a built-in self-defense mechanism, how what are you to do? Like what are that's the struggle of the 21st and you know 20th century is how do we defeat a negative idea with a built-in self-defense mechanism? Defeat how do how do we overcome, how do we move past a uh something? And you know, I yeah, if I had the answer to that, I'd be a much yeah. Um but you kind of just have to realize that everything just is, and then you can either have a you know, you can have any kind of reaction to anything, and it can be positive or it can be negative, and there's no you know, you have people that we hold up with higher esteem than others and people's opinions, and you can have people whose opinions you respect and disrespect, and but I think the the world and you as a person operate in a much healthier space if it's just spend time with things and do I do I get something out of this, and then you can share that with people, and it doesn't mean anything. Like you you should never share that with a person expecting them to be like you're right, or this is you're identifying something profound and you're brilliant, and I am gonna follow that because you like you're just sharing just a you're sharing vapor, and it's gonna it's gonna disappear, and it doesn't matter. There is no point to the sharing other than the connection, yeah. And also the excite, you know, you hope. Like when Matt shares this with me, or when I share something with Matt, usually it's one there's an excitement there. We're sharing it because you know what? Sharing an emotion is it's one of the best things that you can get from being a human. Yeah. So if I'm sharing something with Matt, I'm like, man, this made me feel really sad or excited, or you know, these are just like hyper basic. But you know, usually it is something pretty basic, and it's like I want to share that and see if he gets that. Yeah. And you know, we're friends, we're good friends. So usually we do see and get excited about similar things. Yes. And so it's fun. That's kind of like, but there's no great truth. And I think again, we we want to we want stories for everything. We're looking for some great truth. And I really, yeah, I I don't know how um you waste a lot of time searching for like the best. This is the best thing, right? This is the go the greatest of this, and the best of this, and this is uh the best photo, or this person's good, this person's not. It's like, you know, I I'm fond of this because it makes me feel like this, and maybe you'll get the similar everybody just turns their base up when it gets warm out. It's crazy. Um yeah, I don't know. I I've just I've been feeling that a lot lately. And uh I'll read people like reviewing something or you know, talking about I'm just like I just roll my eyes now, and I mean I do it too. Like I'll I I give you opinions or like talk about things on here, and that's really me doing that. And I'd roll my eyes at myself too, don't worry. Like I'm not you know taking myself out of this. Um I'm just like it's just dumb though. It's just like really silly. I'm just like, oh god, the last thing I need is more, you know, I don't know, find people who you like similar things to and then share with each other and see what comes from it, yeah, and create from that place. And I think you'll probably make something that's better and more uh has more of a chance of uh, you know, uh connecting to another person. Yeah. Which is hilarious because I a couple of weeks ago we were talking about the Tolstoy, and I'm like, I don't know. His definition is of of what art is is kind of like something that connects or like you sharing an emotion through a piece of work that another person is able to grab. I just feel that, yeah. It's like I kind of just described I kind of described that in a sense, and I might not necessarily agree with it, but I I think I agree with a lot of it, and I think that um I think it's a good with some like some asterisk, not like not in like a way that like oh that's wrong. Who am I to be like oh Tolstoy actually forgot to well wasn't considering, but I just think you know, context changes and things like that. But um, yeah, I mean we just everything's gotta have this grand grandiose like narrative and descriptor, and everything's gonna have this like connection of myth, and you know. I just don't know if we're right.

SPEAKER_03 59:19

Just kinda or or even with you know what we're doing. Shaking ourselves off all of that you're doing in your lives, like you know, after this conversation, I could sit there and and go into a tailspin going, am I per am I am I earning a living and making work the bright way? Yeah. Am I doing something wrong that I more more that I like more than I dislike making content? Am I doing something wrong by by letting what I hope is making work and making content bleed together? Am I excluding the possi does that exclude the possibility of making work that I think is meaningful or uh or I like or I'm proud of? I don't know. Uh you know, like I'm not gonna sit here and yeah, try to turn this gaseous thing into um into a solid. Uh I'm just going to I'm just gonna go through it reflecting on what feels not good, but what feels like the right thing for me to keep to keep doing. Yeah. And you know, I certainly am gonna deploy um introspection and self-awareness and go, you know, sort of what what what feels like the thing that you're serving here? Is it something vain? Is it something um shallow? Is it something uh just a surface thing, or are you in a more deeply focused way connecting with something else? Yeah. Beyond the noise, beyond the distractions, beyond the dopamine, beyond the pleasure.

Taste Subjectivity And Sharing Feelings

SPEAKER_01 1:01:13

Yeah. Um and we can sit here all day and complain and be like, oh, the dopamine is terrible, and like this is what's and I think it's a lot of it's just scapegoating, like it it's kind of it's like the letter that you showed me. Um the the letter in this book. I'm just sold the book now. Um the it is like that stuff's gonna be there, and we might live in an environment that kind of perpetuates it, maybe more than it has been in the past or whatever, but don't complain about like it's it's up to you. Yeah, like it's up to like if you don't like it and you don't do anything about it, that's your fault. Yeah, and you can be like, well, it's the everything's against me, and like the the whole you know system is structured to where this is the only, and it's like that's always how things are if you don't like being overrun with dopamine because Instagram takes all your time, delete it. Yeah, and it's like well I can't because X, Y, and Z. It's like, well, then think about that. Like, I don't know what to tell you. Like, you what are you what are you asking for? Like, what do you what are you if you're making the complaint and you've identified a thing and then you don't want to do anything about it, then what's the point in continuing the conversation on that? It's a and that's a very pragmatic kind of way of approaching something, but it's like at that point, all the only emotion that you're transmuting is negativity, and it's like that's there's plenty of that. What do you have to offer beyond that? So, yeah, and I mean you get the same thing with like yeah, I don't know. There's just a lot of um I mean yeah, I there's a lot of things that I can look at and point to and be like, that's I don't agree with the way we do things there, I don't agree with how that's structured, I don't agree with how that's structured, and the only thing that I can do is attempt to live my life in a way that you know says, hey, I don't agree with that or I don't do that. And you know what? That's just if I if I get if I wake up and I'm like excited, you know, if I wake up and I go to bed in between I do what I want to do, like it's a Dylan quote. It's like that's it. Great. Like that's kind of, you know, I don't I don't know. I you know, things aren't as complicated as we like to make them out to be, and things are infinitely complicated, and both of those things are true at the same time. Yeah, like that life is just full of greeting cards and you know, yeah. I don't I don't know. Nobody has any answers, nobody knows anything, and yeah, you can but you can learn something from everybody.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:18

Yes, it's like um and you can learn something from all the decisions you make to do something or not do something, to consume something or not consume something.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:29

To think something or not think something, yeah, absolutely. Um yeah. I don't know if it's yeah, it's interesting we get on these conversations, and I just get to this place where I'm like, nothing is real, everything is it's all paper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean uh it's just you know, a lot of that's that's what photography that really is what interests me in photography and you know film and it's uh you know, dealing with quote unquote raw material and turning it into something and how powerful the human mind is at turning anything into something.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:16

And you know, yeah, I don't I don't know. It's uh something that we've explored for our entire existence and we'll continue to explore as long as we're around just the uh the mind's ability to make things out of raw material.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:35

Well, and and and for me, you know, uh when I go out, I I I think of it as sort of like like what you just said earlier, you know, sort of like we you keep trying to want to nail something down, or this is right or that's wrong, or whatever. And sometimes it's just sort of it's just the the state of something what it is. It just is this. Um And when I think when I'm out, I am interested in slipping into this realm of something that just is. And I feel like when something motivates me to take a photo, obviously, aesthetic beauty will sometimes trigger the desire to take a photo. Like, oh, these multicolored houses all in a row with the light hitting them perfectly. You know, it's like it's kind of an obvious photo, but I like it. So I'm gonna take it as a memento.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:32

But then when it comes to the work, it's sort of like I just like this morning. I was at an estate sale and I had my camera with me, and there was light coming in on uh end table, and the dust and the arrangement of the items on there, like the the is-ness of it, just I just I'm like, I'm taking a picture of this. Uh I had the same feeling when I drove away. I was about to turn right off of a gravel road onto another road, and I just looked to my right, and there were two telephone poles, a hill, a blue sky, and dirty snow in the ditch. And I just there was something about that that I'm like, this is something. I'm obviously I'm not consciously thinking of that, but I'm like, I feel like this is one of those instances where I'm sort of slipping into the realm of how something is, and there's something there, and I'm gonna try to take a photo of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:26

And I I yeah, and I feel like when I look at Kent's work or William Eggleston's work or Gary's work, there's there there are a lot of examples of that that thing that I try to be sensitive to without mailing like this is an is photo, this is a just a cool aesthetic beauty, or this is a freakish, miraculous coincidence, and they happen to snap the show. There's nothing particularly is-ness about it, it just yeah, it's a miracle that all those things happen together.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:03

Yeah, so it's like I mean, that that is a lot of things, right? That could you could see that as anything that has a lot of potential to read to depending on what somebody's yeah um what somebody's experience is, that it has a lot of potential to live is a lot of different things. Right.

Photography As Is Ness

SPEAKER_03 1:08:22

So, you know, and I you know when I'm out make you know, photographing things, I'm not like oh, that was uh you were working through some psychological barriers and you worked up the courage to take the photo and you care about the photo because it represents you pushing through those those barriers. It you know, the photo is nothing great. It's a you know a guy in a street smoking a cigarette and you got within five feet of him and boldly took a photo, like versus again something else where you feel like when you look at it, you're staring into some other realm or level of consciousness or state of is-ness. I don't even know how to describe it. It's just there's something in it that just is like whether that's the familiar or the unfamiliar, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:14

Something um I think there's a lot of examples too. I don't think it's just like a one-something. I think there's a lot of things that you can tap into, or I don't even know if that's a good way to I'm just really what's bugging me is like how unprecise all of my articulation articulation is today. And it's all a brain rot from consuming all the noise all the time, Alex. Well, it's it's just it's like a striking lack of thoughtfulness. And I'm here and I'm trying to talk through I'm obviously by the way, this is our 69th episode. Uh huh. And final. We're done. Um we're gonna do 69 minutes and we're out. Um doesn't matter if you're mid-set 69. The we've obviously we've done a lot, and I'm just yeah, just a little bit disappointed in my ability to be clear, but not be, yeah. I don't know. I think it's hard to be clear about something that well, it's it's hard to be clear about something that doesn't exist. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:30

Or something that is just nebulous and gaseous, and it's it's uh i yeah, you yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:37

And you know, yeah, I'm sure there's somebody it might be. It's like, oh well, you're just talking in circles and you're not saying anything. You're just saying a lot of nothing that sounds like something or what and I no, I mean I'm trying to I'm trying to articulate something that's very clear to me. Just not the syntax isn't there for it. Or like the like the way I'm structuring it is just inefficient at communicating what I how I actually feel about it.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:08

The beauty of it is is that you can continue to think about defining this, like, think about and find other ways to express it or articulate it. But uh I mean that's that that is the whole point of studio sessions. We are literally positioning these things to to again not to nail them down and and and turn them from gas to solid, but to to just sort of d develop an awareness or challenge each other to think about things in a different way, or to have you thought about this and and struggle to connect the dots, or or you know, I I feel clear about this. I feel like like it pertains to this or it feels like this, or but at the same time, language is a limiting it's a limited tool. You know, you can't especially when you're an idiot. You can't, you know, you have a feeling and it's it is not easy, yeah. Uh to uh to manifest it in a way where the audience goes, Yeah, that's it. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:12

That's that, yep. I mean, I can definitely do a better job. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:16

I can get I can get more approximate to what I'm yeah, but yeah, no but maybe that's episode 169 where it comes together and uh you're like, remember 69? We talked about that? Like, I kinda kinda think I have a better handle on it. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, just make this shit up as we go.

Language Limits And Closing Reflection

SPEAKER_01 1:12:36

That's kind of it, yeah. I do wonder, yeah, what what it's like coming like watching from the the beginning. I do too, yeah. Like I'm sure there's some things that we've progressed on. Or not even again, there I am, like giving the stupid fucking like linear meta. Like I'm I really am trying to just remove that from my my conceptual like how I conceptualize the world around me. And I I feel like I do a better job about it in consciousness than I do in communication. Yeah, our communication is so grounded in that metaphor, yeah. And it's I mean it's astonishing when you start to really pay attention to it. It's like catching yourself saying like, yeah. Fuck. Oh, it's hard to not do. Yeah, and you wonder how much that subconsciously carries into just how you perceive everything. Yeah, and it's just complete fabrication.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:36

But I always look at it, and this is you could argue this linear too, as as a sort of nebulous mass, and you are sometimes pulling yourself to great heights to observe as much of it on a macro scale as possible, and then also going into the little bits in between atoms to try to, you know, try to see things out of the way. I think just removing scale entirely is potentially potentially the more yeah, and well you're you're you're translating an ethereal thing into a visual construct, into uh some kind of visual metaphor, you know. Limited, yeah, you know, but you're trying to take this feeling and you're saying food coloring and water, you're saying just a line.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:27

Start finish, you know, or or yeah lack of understanding to you know, awareness and understanding, or you know, the the thing that I use.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:36

Our our language is so limited and uh it's um yeah, it's it's important to think in in metaphors and think about the metaphors that you're kind of using, but yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:59

It had been a golden afternoon, and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer experience.