74. Proof of Work or How the Floor Gets Raised

We open with Daniel Arnold's new book You Are What You Do from Loose Joints — the sequencing, the blank pages, the editor's role — and end up on a harder question: what happens when you spend a decade on something and the first question someone asks is "what's next?" We talk through Josh Safdie's account of finishing Uncut Gems and why that question lands like an insult, and whether there's also something honest, even useful, about just moving on.

That leads into the photo walk question: can you actually make work when you're with other people, or is this a medium that demands solitude? We use it as a way into what we think is genuinely missing from the Omaha creative scene — not talent, but the kind of competitive pressure that only comes from being around people operating at a high level and taking it seriously. We draw a line between community (people talking about ideas) and scene (people making work and raising the floor for each other).

We also get into the difference between finding something valuable and making something from nothing, what it actually takes to own the label of photographer or writer without feeling like you're lying, and why "what's the point?" is the specific thought pattern that keeps you consuming instead of working. The answer, more or less: momentum is the point. -Ai

Transcript

A New Daniel Arnold Photo Book

SPEAKER_00 0:03

And I remember having a familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with somebody.

SPEAKER_04 0:13

Got another one for you. Just got this. This week. His new one? Newest one, yeah. Just came out. Did you buy it from his website? I think the Loose Joints website because they put it together. Yes, for everyone to see. We got Daniel Arnold's new photography book, You Are What You Do, from Loose Joints.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Everybody thought his name was Arnold Daniel for the longish.

SPEAKER_04 0:50

Off his Instagram, yeah. Yeah, dude's up there, man. He's been doing this for a hot minute. Um, this doesn't have to be like Alex gives some big in-depth thing. I just wanted to show it to you. And I always like going through these photos. Really, really like this book. And oh yeah, that one's probably I know that one's crazy to me how it like half the photo is night, but it's daytime. Obviously, it could be you know twilight getting down there, but to see a blue sky in the top right corner, and but then it like everything's lit like it's night.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Or maybe yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:35

That one's that one's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

That one's been around for a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 1:38

Yeah. And this will segue and uh um a little bit of the situation I wanted to drop on you to start a conversation, but some really good ones here. And just an interesting from the last the last two photo books. So I have the first one I had that I brought to you, and I can't remember if we we talked about it, but I can't remember if I dropped it on you on camera, but it was um Kent and Kent Andreessen's book, uh Memory Bank. Yeah. And uh, you know, um Daniel's stuff is all almost entirely trad, you know, sort of like traditional street photography. Whereas Kent's is, you know, a lot of different stuff, including including some mixed media where it was either photographs or scans of objects. Yeah. There's some really good ones in here though.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Did you ever use the apple bong? Never.

SPEAKER_04 2:40

Never did the apple bong. And my first introduction to Daniel was through Pauly B's YouTube channel and when they did a walkie-talkie. I hadn't followed him on Instagram, and you know, with me being very new to all this, relatively speaking, you know, I didn't have any kind of street photographers or you know, cool, interesting, you know, because he does commercial work and kind of in a sense, like BTS stuff on sets with the Safety brothers, a lot of um, you know, sometimes documenting like Hollywood parties and stuff. A lot of you know, stuff he did with when Kanye and Kim Kardashian were together, and there's a few of those in the book. But I yeah, got connected with him through the through Polly B's walkie-talkie and was one of the first walkie-talkies I watched. And um I forget what video I watched recently where it was, you know, they they talked about this being out, but I just went right to the website and ordered it. Um, but yeah, the Kent Andreessen book, and then the um Cartier Brisson book, um, and then this one. And this one's really interesting because you know, there's no text at all. You know, we talked about this in a previous episode. No text, no titles other than the title of the book. Um, no I fucked a genie. Yeah, I know it's great. I love all love that. I have a like a painting of an owl that I got, and when I saw this painting of the cat, I was like, oh man, it reminds me of my owl, my kind of bad owl painting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember seeing it from Instagram.

SPEAKER_04 4:49

So two things about this that I thought were

Blank Pages And The Logic Of Sequencing

SPEAKER_04 4:51

interesting. The use of of blank pages, and like I haven't just like not that I need to like know the answer, but I'm like curious, like what what are the instincts to have either uh one side of a blank page or one whole page that's blank on either side? Is it separating the flow? Is it is there a new thread that's being picked up? Especially because from what I can tell in the credits of the book, um, someone from Loose Joints collaborated with Daniel, but they were the editor of the sequencing. Um, and I'm sure Daniel worked with them, you know, gave feedback or whatever, but that essentially kind of like a movie, right? You have the director and then the editor actually puts it together. I thought that was really obviously it's it's different, but you know, just big picture. It's a little, it's more similar. Which I kind of like is I I feel very stressed out about sequencing because I, you know, yeah, this because I I don't know. Sometimes I feel like I would be almost too in I don't know, just like instinctual with it and just kind of oh yeah, I like that, yeah, then that then that and not really give it too much time and attention.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Is that the the good time set?

SPEAKER_04 6:26

I don't know. I don't think I've seen that movie.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

I think that guy died.

SPEAKER_04 6:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

I think that's the guy I'm thinking of.

SPEAKER_04 6:34

This is crazy. Um stepping over the fake dead horse. That was awesome.

How Arnold Shoots And Builds A Career

SPEAKER_04 6:53

I don't think he has one vertical photo in the whole book.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Yeah, I think he just shoots. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:00

And he does a lot of um kind of shoot from the hip, you know, not not pulling up the viewfinder and just popping it off. I watched re re-watched his walkie-talkie and saw that he was doing that quite a bit. Um I couldn't remember what his focal length was. I want to say it's 35. I think he's 28. He is 28? Okay. And he's, you know, um started, he would just would shoot on his iPhone. Yeah, yeah, that's what he mentioned. Like this was like early Instagram.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Yeah, I mean, yeah. I don't remember because I I like I mean, I definitely like I think it was I was probably in college. Um so like that 2014 area. Yeah. Um and he I think he's talked about it, but there was a video that came out like probably 2016 when he was still using the contacts G2. I saw that probably.

SPEAKER_04 8:10

It's called like memory lapse or something. I feel like it's videos. It's back when he was 38 because he in the walkie-talkie now. In the walkie-talkie, he was 43, so he must be 44, 45 now, since that walk came out.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

He worked for like a more traditional thing.

SPEAKER_04 8:28

Yeah, he was writing for like music. Music journalist or something, yeah. Music journalist, and then doing this in his spare time.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Well, then I think one day, yeah, he just started. He just he was like, I'm gonna do like 12 miles a day, yeah. Or 20 miles a day. Yeah. And just shoot. And he did that, and it just evolved. He's a he's a really like deep kind of like you can tell he kind of doesn't talk a lot. He just thinks about things.

SPEAKER_04 8:59

Well, you know, he really he gets really into it in both those videos, the memory lapse video and the walkie-talkie, like not that he doesn't talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

No, no, he's definitely he's a thoughtful guy.

SPEAKER_04 9:10

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Uh I don't know. I think.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Oh, this is interesting.

SPEAKER_04 9:20

Yeah, so that self-portrait, it's on the back of the book, too. Yeah, so yeah, the safties are in there and kind of Keith Richards. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Andre.

SPEAKER_04 9:37

Yep. And you probably recognize a lot more names than me, especially if there are other photographers.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

COVID-19. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:03

Super simple. Um yeah, just lay it out there with the photographs. But yeah, the edit in sequence, Sarah Chaplin. And Lu uh at Luce Joints. I think it's like brand new 2025 Arnold Dane. I wonder if they they maybe did a tiny, tiny run of it. That's just the the plastic wrap. Yeah, yeah. It's got a sticker on the front and back, so I'm like, I gotta keep this shit. Cool.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

Yeah, this is sweet. I bet it feels good for him. Oh, yeah, to just like put all of this in the book and be like, yeah, fucking done with that. Yep. Not ready to start the next yeah. So this is an interesting

The Painful Question After Finishing

SPEAKER_01 10:56

thing. I don't want to hijack wherever you wanted to take notes. But I was I was talking about this with a buddy. Because I'm in the middle of a couple of things right now that I've been working on for a long time. And like the end is I mean, the end of the first step, the end of like pulling all of the ideas and making it some kind of cohesive thing is in sight now. And obviously, like you know, personal situations and stuff, like the friction has been remote, like it's just doing it now. Yeah, like the end is insight for this thing that's just existed for a long time. And I know there's gonna be a lot of steps. Like, the end is not in sight, the end is not in sight, but the end of like the like grabbing all of the shit and like getting it sorted. Yep. And I I remember, so I listened to an interview with Josh Safty. I guess last year, when I guess Marty Supreme. Yep. And um he was talking about he hated, like, he gets up there uh for like a screening or something, and the first question somebody asks is, So what's next? And he's like, Are you fucking kidding me? Yeah, he's like, I've been working on this thing for you know six years or whatever. I I think it was this was before he started on Marty Supreme, but he was talking about Uncut Gems. Yeah, and Uncut Gems was like the project that he'd been working on since like pre-good, like that was the project he'd been working on for like a decade. And it was like getting like good time, was like I have to prove my competency so I can raise enough money to get the cast that I want to make this movie. And it like it was this like huge prog, like multi-step project with rewrites and recasting and changing things and raising the money for it, and finally getting it done, and they finally put it out there, and he's just like this it's the culmination of all of this stuff, and then he had like a kid and everything, and it was just like finally I realized this dream that I had, got this thing made, and then yeah, he's like interviewing, and first question is so what's next? I know, and he said it broken, like he almost cried. Wow, it was just so upsetting, yeah. Like, are you kidding me? But then I've been thinking about this, and I'm like, there's something really nice about I mean, I obviously there's something depressing about kind of like putting an exclamation point on something, yeah. But there's also something nice about just on to the next thing, yeah. And maybe that's just me. I wanted to get your opinion on that though. Like, I I mean I I totally understand. Like, are you fucking kidding me? And obviously, I haven't worked to any like realize anything at that level. Um, so I can't speak to his experience in any kind of meaningful way. Um but yeah, like you you've been work if you're working on something for that long and then you finally realize it, and it's like I can see why you'd be upset, but I can also see the appeal of just like, okay, let's move on. Because like you I don't know, the point of doing all of this is kind of more the practice than anything, so yeah, it does get a little exhausting continuing to work on the same thing over and over and over, and I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 14:27

Yeah, I I mean I can see how someone saying that though is just like gives that kind of reaction. Not that he wants to necessarily like I don't know, relive it all relive every bit of the creative process from uh idea to finished film, but you know, there has to be some feeling of like, especially, you know, the Sana's first film where he's done press and all that stuff. Um you know, podcast interviews. I don't know if he did did talk shows or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

I think this was like the first time that he like um like, like, like, like, like I think this was the first time he kind of cleared the funnel though.

SPEAKER_03 15:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

It was everything was in service of this thing, and he finally did it. Yeah. And I I don't know. I'm I've always got 30 things going on. So I feel like I would just probably just jump to a different thing. Yeah. Um everybody works differently. So I think that you know, and to realize something at that level takes a different level of intense focus for sure.

SPEAKER_04 15:38

But I think if he's right in the thick, though, of like exhibiting his his you know, finished film and sharing it with everyone, and someone's already hitting him up for what's next. I could see how that'd be a little demoralizing because it's like, look, like I'm I'm still caught up in this thing and and seeing what people think about it and sharing it and being vulnerable and excited or hurt or whatever. And now you're like, you're ready to you're like you're already, I I haven't like really thought about starting this cycle all over again, which for a filmmaker, especially if they write and direct, is a big cycle. I mean, that's a lot. And and and I think for Daniel as well, you know, he some of these photos could be, you know, seven, eight, nine years old. Definitely older photos for sure. And so to take all of that work and put it into a book, you know, it's fun. It's funny because you know, you've you've I you know, I flipped through it, my first trip through it was, you know, I don't know, 20 minutes. You know, so you take 10 years of this guy's work that he killed himself walking hundreds, if not thousands of miles, how many rolls of film, how many edits, how many, you know, all the pain and triumph of of doing that, and you rip through it in 20 minutes and you're like, when's your next book coming out? Cool, yeah. And I'm and I didn't have that because I'm gonna revisit this, you know, numerous times. That's part of what I love about photography books.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

A lot though, right? Right, yeah. Somebody go, oh, they spent five years on this project and took blood, sweat, and tears, and it barely happened. Toured and killed themselves to tour it. All of all of this, and then as soon as it comes out, you listen to it three times.

SPEAKER_03 17:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Okay. Yeah. When's the next one?

SPEAKER_04 17:25

Not as good as the first one.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

You can just walk over here.

SPEAKER_04 17:29

Thank you. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. You can't.

SPEAKER_03 17:37

I want to be in here.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

I want to visit one rocket book. Yeah. If uh if I were to spill another glass of liquid, it would be right on the right on the but that would be part of its story. You can throw that cover away, buddy. Yeah, no, I I'm with you on the you you're I mean the music thing is the biggest, and I've I've done that before, right? Yeah. You wait five years or six years or three years or however long for a project and then you listen to it a couple of times and all right, next. Yeah. I mean and for me it would be I try not to do that now. I try to Yeah. I and if something is really well made and made with the right intentions and the right attention intentions and attention to detail, I think it it is, you know, if it's if it's a work that's of a certain level, and if it's an open work and it it's gonna be revisited. A great album comes out and you listen to it, and you listen to it maybe five times or ten times or however many times, if it's a really good project, you can pretty much be confident, oh, this is gonna live with me for the rest of my life. Yeah. In some form or fashion. Now everything can't do that, but no.

SPEAKER_04 19:06

And sometimes it's what we're saying. It's you know the five albums you'd take to a deserted island, but there's still 10, 15 more that you know you you love, but they don't make the cut if you really had to choose. And uh and sometimes that can be based on where you are in your life, um what you're dealing with, all of that. Um, that it that it fluctuates.

Photo Walks Versus Solitary Flow

SPEAKER_04 19:32

Um the reason I brought the book out was the thing that was on my mind, and this might go deeper from where it starts because I think just at the surface it's a little bit simple, but there's a photo walk on Saturday that's scheduled. This guy, and I've mentioned him before, um, set it up, and he's invited, you know, photographers and you know, models and stuff to to go on the photo walk. And I'm you know, I'm gonna go, I'm you know, curious to see who's there. I think Hayden's gonna go. Matt shows up with his uh M11. Yeah, I should just bring like a Canon Digicam or something. But um Hayden will have his M6. But um it was sort of two things. And you know, walk watching Pauly B's walkie-talkies, like the thing that I get excited about with every episode is like I'm gonna get to watch someone work. But they're they they can't because they're getting interviewed while they walk around, and sure they'll stop and take a photo and all that. But um, and I was thinking about the connection that has to a photo walk because I've you know you've seen um I think there's like um beers and cameras, they do like big meetups in different cities where sometimes I'm sure like 20 run club for yeah, basically, yeah. But you've got like 20, 30, 40, 50 photographers roaming the streets of Chicago in a pack, and it's like you can't, you know, are you really getting anything?

SPEAKER_01 21:11

I mean we've talked about this before. I think one of my favorite things is when you and I go downtown, yeah. I've gotten I I honestly don't even know if I've gotten one photo. Yeah, we've been doing it for what? Mm-hmm six years. Yeah. I mean, we we'll walk for hours at a time, and we've been doing it for six years, and I don't know if I've ever gotten a photo that I've it's just a work that kind of called you to be solitary.

SPEAKER_04 21:38

That's what I think too. And I I certainly enjoy when we hang out and we have our cameras and we're doing stuff, and there's definitely photographs I've taken, and you know, I would without looking through them all to go, are any of the ones from our times hanging out together sort of worthy of a a cut? There might be a couple for me. Um but you're just not you're not in a state where you're seeing things develop to react. You know, you're managing sort of politeness because someone's in the middle of talking about something, maybe it's a little heavy, and you don't want to be like, hold on a second, and they'll go rip a photo of like a turtle in the middle of the field, you know, um, the park. Or um, you know, so it's a little bit of a challenge, and there's the those those types of things for me, it's like like I have the I have the tool, and I'm out dedicating time to this idea of making photos, but I can't because I'm with other people. I can't get into that flow or that state, and I love it when I'm alone. Um so the thought to me was you know, um kind of two things. It was is it worth it to walk around with people and take photos when you can't really do it? And what's the real value in doing it? Um building community and kind of getting an idea of who else in town is making work, making those connections, whether it would lead to a collaboration or commercial work or some connection with someone else, the role that that community plays in developing as a photographer. And if you have any ex any uh thoughts or experiences where, and it doesn't mean you have to know 10 photographers where you live, but what role has just being around other people who are making photos played in the development of your own work? Has it had no bearing? Does um other people being disciplined making work? Uh can you close that door behind there? I just wonder sorry to interrupt your flow of thought there.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

There we go. I was just hearing that drone come in.

SPEAKER_04 24:19

I'm like, oh the idea of yeah, making work in a in a group of of people and where that balances with the idea of the community or the well the just the role, the role that being around other makers of things, especially in a specific discipline, you know, whether it was for you, writing, photography, you know, obviously, you know, me making YouTube videos and having my community there, even if they're not physically in the area, has been very helpful. Um, but I haven't really had it beyond you, maybe. I mean, yeah, you see some other photographers that I know in town, you see some of their work show up on Instagram. You're obviously not, you know, seeing it uh on Instagram. So, you know, part of me, this isn't meant to sound um isn't meant to sound negative or um harsh, but it's like, you know, there's part of you that goes, what's the point of doing this photo? Why? Like, is this is this anything? Is this gonna be anything? But then the other part of me is like, well, you know, what relationships would develop that would just seeing other people's work, having conversations, if you know, maybe you kind of have good chemistry with somebody there.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

When you and I met from a Facebook post being like, let's grab coffee, right? So I like I I sent you that photo today. Yes. Geez. I mean, that's semi-photo walk adjacent. Right. And so I can't imagine, yeah, how different my experience would be over the last few years if we would have never decided to just on a whim go get some coffee with a stranger.

SPEAKER_04 26:13

So and that's kind of the you know, I didn't have that thought before you and I grab coffee. You don't sit there and go, Am I on the cusp of a deep and meaningful relationship forming or is this just a waste of my time? And yeah, yeah, you know, and I'm just gonna bloviate the whole time to this kid who, you know, is is like not ready to hear a dad lecture about like what the Omaha scene's like and what he should and shouldn't do. Yeah. And I kind of think about that with this because I do have a little bit more, I don't know if reverence is the right word, but part of me goes, you know, what what might come of this? Both positively and sort of that a negative approach, which is what's the point? We're not gonna take any photos, we're just all gonna be talking, and and then like part of me is like, uh, social anxiety and like every you know, who's gonna be there that I know? Obviously, everybody's in a bit of a performative state. Potentially, some people are. Well, I, you know, will you fall into that? Right. Yeah, yeah. Do you bring the camera and it's like, oh, cool, you know, what do you think about it? You know, all that, or is doing that with other people? You know, it's always just such a it's like, oh, is that a Leica? Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_04 27:22

Yeah. Oh, what are you shooting? You know, like I mean, I'm interested in that stuff. Like I I am, but it's like the the context of it all, the framework of it all sometimes is like that's what gets me when I go to YouTube stuff like NAB. I'm like, I want to ask you these questions, but I feel like you're gonna think I'm trying to form a relationship with you because you're a bigger creator than me and I want to get something from you. There's an immediate like what's your angle, buddy?

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Yeah, yeah, there's like an immediate um hierarchy, yeah, like structure that's applied to everything. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:01

But at the same time, you know, I do want to connect with other people who are making work, even if they're in early, early days of it. Because it's not like I'm 20 years in or anything with photography specifically, but because I like the idea of seeing other people's work beyond the 10 photographers that I see across YouTube, whether it's their own channels or they're showing up, like in a polybiwalkie-talkie, then you're seeing their work, then you're following them on Instagram, you're buying their book. I want to see more work from other people from all ranges of experience and and geography, because for me, there's something that that um it plays a part in getting me out there um and sort of staying connected to just photography in general. And um and then yeah, you just never know what relationship might develop out of it where somehow there's like an exchange of ideas or a sharing of work or something that helps contribute to the further exhibition of work. Yeah. You know, someone like Daniel with his book, you know, did the people that he's met along the way, whether um he knew loose joints when he had his first book come out or all that other stuff, like did these this community build to help to help contribute to getting the work done?

SPEAKER_01 29:35

And there's like you definitely can't discount the idea of of community. Um I mean, yeah, it's one of the biggest reasons we wanted to do the gallery. Like it's not like that's a dead idea, like that's just an idea that's waiting for kind of the right circumstance to come up. Yeah. I mean, even right the studio next to Josh, like that might be available at some point here in the near future, and we might be able to do what we were thinking about doing. Um and I mean, just in terms of like if Hayden's gonna be there, you know Hayden's yeah, very serious about his work, and um I mean, yeah, I I think it is important to feed into that. Um and yeah, maybe you meet you just need a couple of people to form a significant community around something. So I'm saying this, I'm like, I'm not going, but you can't go because you're leaving, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:37

Yeah, but yeah, but it's possible. Yeah, I'd be curious if you were in town if you would go. You uh or if it's like, well, if Matt's going, I'll go.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

But if he was probably go if if you yeah, just to hang out, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:50

Um and then I'd I'd probably see introvert Alex and I'd be like, Where's where's the Alex I now? Yeah, closed off, closed off, shut down. Alex is here, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Yeah, and I mean that just that's just me being around a group of people that I don't know. It's like yeah, I don't know. Um but yeah, I I I mean I don't think it's a useless I don't think it's I think there's definitely value that that could come from it. Um but who can you know if you get out and you just have a morning and you meet a couple new people and you get to say hey to Hayden and whatever, you guys get to chat for like 20 minutes, that's not a lost day.

SPEAKER_04 31:33

Yeah. Have you felt like in the entire time you've been doing photos that there was any time where a com you know, having a little bit of community, a friend or a group of friends, or just other people that you knew in your area or whatever that were making work and seeing their work or what they were doing had some impact on what you did.

Why Omaha Needs Higher Standards

SPEAKER_04 32:01

And I don't mean like you shifted the focus, but like it just did something to so this is like one of my things with Omaha.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

I haven't really felt that in Omaha. Um, I mean, like obviously um, you know, like the level that Cody works on stuff has like influenced the way I approach certain things and like the like you and I have had conversations and stuff, but I think my biggest thing is yeah, you just for me personally, I think that that feeling would arise by way of being not that this is the only thing to take away, but like I I would need to see somebody who I'm like, oh my gosh, they're working at a level that is so clear I that I want to like it I mean it's a bit of it if I had to classify it, it's like a bit of a competitive research response. And I'm I mean my head very competitive, obviously. I I don't I don't think I'm like outwardly competitive, like I'm not like I'm gonna be fucking like I don't care. Yeah. Um I just I mean pretty much everything in Omaha, photo-wise or like filmmaking wise, um, or like like just where what I'm working with or whatever. Um and now this is interesting timing, but I mean I've I haven't felt that like oh I'm inspired. I don't mean that in a negative way, or maybe it is a little bit negative, but it it just feels like the the level is not there to kind of inspire me to really um on a professional level. I get this sometimes like like when I'll do a job with Jeff, like Jeff is extremely and like when I would work with Mike, um I mean Mike had been doing it for 30 years, like the level of craft is so high, and like that is more commercial, right? Obviously, yeah, but still like the level of craft is yeah seriously way up there, yeah. Yeah, and I mean, like especially Jeff, like I mean that I just say that because it's who I've more been working with more recently, and it's like he takes it seriously and he's he's like interested in working at the top level of his field, yeah. You can see that, and I respect that, and um that motivates me, you know, and I'll work and I'm like, oh man, like there's so much that I can know about this or whatever. Um I went to see um my friend's table read recently, and I was like, man, this is really this is a a good level of craft here. Like I I can appreciate, and it's you know, it might not be something that I would have written or whatever, but I'm like, man, I appreciate the commitment to the level of craft here, and it's apparent. And yeah, I left that. I was a little pumped and inspired. Um I want more. I know that's I love that. That's what I want. That's what I really crave that. Um and that's exactly what I'm talking about. I just when I I look around Omaha, I just see there's not a lot of people that are working at that level in like the adjacent to like what I'm yeah. I I I think we need that. I need that, I think. Um and you know what? If we had that, maybe it like everything looks a little different. It's you they they say like a rising tide lifts all boats. Right. Um, you bring, you know, if you have an organization or if you have a sports team, excuse the the lazy metaphor, but if you have a sports team and you bring in a player who's the sports team kind of stinks, and then you bring in a player who's like they're taking everything seriously and they're spending 30 minutes stretching before practice, or like they're just doing things at a really high level. You're gonna have some people that are like, well, I'll make fun of that. Maybe that's like a little bit of you know, uh protective mechanism or something. But you're gonna have people who are just like, oh, so that's the level. Um and that's how you get the best out of yourself. Um, I mean, I had that experience with running, I think, when I got to, you know, I I got to I started racing against like really good D2 and D1 runners, and it's like, oh, I'm not, I'm never gonna be like great at this thing. Like, you know, you're you're the best in on your high school team, or like everybody on the team is the best on their high school team. You get there and you're like at the bottom of the totem pole and you're like, and I mean our program wasn't when we got there, it wasn't, but it elevated over time. Yep. And um then you start looking outward and you're like, oh, yeah. And it takes a lot. And I think the same is true for anything. Um I'm giving a really long-winded bloviating answer on. Um I wish we had it. I just don't see it. I just don't get it right now. I mean, I don't know. Uh like that's kind of what I wanted. Like, that was part of the the intention of the gallery idea, too, was to create that environment, right? Even if it was a little bit artificial.

SPEAKER_04 37:29

Well, and I think the gallery is a mechanism to see who can switch from a person who has talent but isn't focused on it. And that's more of what I see. I'm like, I think there's a lot of really talented people here, but they have full-time jobs or they have families or they have other things that either they choose to focus on, there's cultural pressure. Well, you know, oh, your little artsy hobby, you're gonna you make a living off that. How are you gonna support yourself and your family? You need to focus on your job and this and that. So you see people that really inspire me with their knowledge, their talent, their um something there. There's like a little flame there, a little, a little spark, something that makes me see, but then it's not, and I, you know, this is me as well, but it's not being focused to the point where the work is being made beyond a photo walk or you know, a weekend morning, or for some of the YouTubers I watch, where it's just I'm taking photos to just show what a lens looks like on YouTube, but I'm not actually creating a body of work that's going into a photograph, uh a book, or a gallery. And that's what I liked about the idea of a gallery. This is a mechanism to have people really show up and focus on something that creates a piece of work, a project, and then exhibits it and then gets that experience under their belt, under our belts, to focus even more and then more.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

It's a distribution mechanism, right? You're you're building like a a framework for distribution on the very, very like technical side. But what that's doing as well is then it suddenly becomes I mean it does, it becomes competitive. And I don't mean that like you're not it's like, oh, I'm gonna make better, but it you know what it is, is oh, I want to do a show. And so when you're like sitting here and it's a Tuesday and you really just don't want to do anything, you're like, I need to be working on this project, I need to go and you know, make a plan to go here. Yeah, shoot, I need to be, you start to think about these things. And I mean, yeah, it forces you to continue to iterate and push, and to you that you're gonna hone your voice, and you're gonna start to hone what you care about. And yeah, I mean it's just it's gonna drum up a level of excitement, I think. I mean, that's what you see in all of these communities where obviously this is true in New York, obviously this is true in Los Angeles and like these bigger places, and um and the talent might not be at the highest level in Omaha, but I'm like I I do think part of it is just works unorganized. You just got a bunch of energy and nothing to focus the energy on. And yeah, if you start like if film in Omaha, like if a couple of people make films that are significant and you know interesting, like not good, but technically competent and interesting, and not just like the same old like derivative nonsense that you see a lot of that we've seen, you know, we've seen iterations of it for seven, eight years now. Yeah, everybody's gonna push the level, right? And you're also gonna you have a bit of that, you know, breaking like I hate to just keep using running metaphors, but it's like have you know the like Bannister, Roger Bannister who breaks the four-minute mile, and then within two weeks other yeah it just falls. Yeah, marath the marathon. We you know there were a lot of people who were like, we'll never go sub two in the marathon. We just went sub two in the marathon, and a guy who it was his first marathon, he ran sub two and didn't doesn't even have the world record. So he he hit a mark in his like very first race that was viewed as an impossible mark a decade ago. Yeah, and he's not even he got beat in that race, yeah. Like this is this like the second, third fastest time ever run. It's insane. He didn't win that race, so like the level lifts everybody, yep. And um now I feel like we need to get into like how would you realize that because I I like talking about it just feels but yeah, I mean I'm sorry if that's not really what you were asking, but it is, yeah. No, it is. I I think I think there's different ways to look at and I I put myself in this camp too, and like obviously, like you and I have influenced each other's like sure, and you and I will I mean you stood here with me for an hour the other day looking at an hour and a half looking at stuff and just pictures that he had sequenced, yeah, and you were just like, and I'm like, I don't know if there's a project here, but I think there's enough to kind of start something, yeah. And I've been looking for that for you know three years of like, do I have enough of anything to start anything? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:08

And I took that, and I and this is what I mean though, about this. It's not, you know, when we say competitiveness, yeah, it sounds like I'm gonna race with you and I'm gonna beat you. It's a different word.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

I don't know what the word is, it's like but it's like if if if it's if you go out, if you gotta if you option to screenplay tomorrow for $200,000, I would be like insanely happy. Yeah. Like I mean, like you're like you and I are brothers, and I like I know how hard you have worked towards, and I I would be pumped.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

But there's a part of me that's gonna go, I gotta fucking get my shit together. If he can do it, I can do it too. 100%. Yeah, and not and I that's not in a disrespectful way, but it's just in like are you like it's just shows what's possible, and that's why you see these communities where one Person succeeds, and then you see all of the success kind of come from. I mean, think of like Haunting, California. I know that is, you know, theoretically, that would not be the best place to grow up. But I think you have more like extreme cases of artistic success or like athletic success from that small radius of because they've seen it, they've seen it done, and it's like, well, if they can do it, I can do it. And we just need more of that. Yeah. In Omaha. And it can't be and I know like there's like the Tarantino take where it's like, I gotta get out of here. I think his quote is like, I gotta get out of Loserville. Right. Like there's something to that, and not in an offensive way, but just in like a mindset way. Like you gotta get out of that. Like, well, especially if there's people that are like crabs in the bucket kind of mindset.

SPEAKER_04 44:51

Yeah, quit dreaming. Uh, you need to get a job, you need to punch the clock, you need to, you know, you need to get that retirement fund going, you know, all that kind of stuff. And that that's more of what I'm talking about potentially holding back really talented artists in Omaha is that you're caught up in like what people expect of you. And I think it's intense in smaller, maybe not just Midwestern, but smaller cities. You know, you hear about New York, LA, Chicago, you know, bigger cities internationally, where these scenes develop, the scene in Compton, you know, uh uh in New York, like there's there's places where there's a predisposition to rebel against the what society expects of you, um, what your parents expect of you, um, security, simplicity, lack of anxiety, and all that. And, you know, um everything from like the anti-war hall thing back in New York, like those all spawn, yeah. Those all spawned a scene. And I think what we talked about this in a previous podcast, like about a scene, and it's almost like to me, a adjacent to or part of like commute, you know, community. Community being like to me, like-minded people sharing similar ideas and talking about it, maybe kind of doing stuff or making stuff, but just like connecting over the ideas. Whereas a scene to me is like people who are making work and there is a a positive or a like a healthy competitiveness there. Um I think uh Audrey and Nate are outside.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

Yo, the um the one of the beat that I'm I think it was my phone. Oh my phone.

SPEAKER_04 46:42

Just connect out, got an email or something. Sorry about that. Oh, you're good.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

I was just paranoid after our camera died. I know.

SPEAKER_04 46:49

Yeah. And I think that's that's really this word scene.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

And you need both, you need to it's easy to fixate on the ideas and lose the physicality of executing.

SPEAKER_04 47:03

That's right. Executing, making, and exhibiting again, like finding, like, like figuring out ways to get the work in front of an audience and and you know, finish a piece of work to do so. You know, I have five, six years of photographs now, and I I'm I'm still going through them with my new aperture setup to get them kind of like you had in your Lightroom, you know, cataloged, organized, and then start actually make make a project and start putting photos in there to see what they look like as a sequence, whether it's a zine or uh a book, or you know, if an opportunity came up or we create an opportunity to exhibit in a gallery. So that's that's part of this. Um the the idea of going on the photo walk. I sit there and half half, probably less than half of me is resistant because there's this this what's the point? Nothing's gonna happen, nobody's gonna be talented enough. I'm not, I'm not disciplined enough. Is this just people hanging and like camera? Like, are we just gonna talk about gear and like the rules and like all this other stuff?

SPEAKER_01 48:06

You can almost drive the conversation in a certain like like it or not, you are like an elder statesman in this scene. Yeah, and I mean, I I like I am too, and like Cody is, and like you know, Hayden is at like at this point, like these like we can embrace that or not, but we've seen regimes of things come and go, and it's up to us if we want to do anything with that or not. Yeah, we've had this conversation before, maybe more commercially minded, but yeah, I I don't see any reason, and you you if you maximize the level of local talent because you've created that competitive atmosphere, other people will come from the outside to be a part of that. And right now Omaha is like and you can't complain, but you know it it's the place where people are like, I gotta get out of here. Right. Because that doesn't exist. So and I get it. And it's a lot easier to imagine, oh, I just need to, I'm gonna go to LA or New York, Chicago, or Austin, or Nashville, Atlanta. I'm gonna go to these places because yeah, you can go to those places, and if you can get plugged in to the right group, yeah, right, you're immediately in that situation. Yeah, everybody's kicking everybody's ass in like a very productive way.

SPEAKER_04 49:34

Yep. And they're they're talking about the work, they're showing the work, even if it's just to each other, they're seeing it. Um, you know, that's one thing I do like about this, the the social media as a tool for a scene, is you know, I follow a few of the Omaha photographers and they may not post their work. Like Hayden doesn't post very often, whether it's a story or um uh an actual post, but that's something I like the idea of Instagram for, which is you know, you meet six or seven people here at this photo walk, you follow them on Instagram, and then if they are posting, you know, that can have this a similar effect as if you're in the same room looking at their computer and they're showing you their photos. And that's something I really like. You know, some of my friends who are YouTubers, but they, you know, they they incorporate photography into their channels, like they're doing more landscape and you know, nature stuff, which I'm not drawn to personally. I mean, I like it, but I'm not, it's not my main, the main thing that I want to work on. Not if you put person in that land. But but seeing them posting and their photos are beautiful, and yeah, there's craft there, there's discipline, there's consistency, you know, that part of it inspires me and makes me want to keep up. And but then but then I want to I want to bring more of the Omaha kids um into that as well.

SPEAKER_01 50:59

Competitiveness is not an all-out bad thing, it gets a bad rep, but it's it's a really positive force if you bottle it the right way. Yeah. And you know what? As we're talking about this on this podcast, I'm thinking about like, oh, like we I think we gotta hold ourselves accountable going forward. I mean, we've done 70 episodes, yeah, three years worth of episodes at this point where it's just me and you. Yep. And I mean, I don't like there's no reason we couldn't get I mean, just in our group, yeah, like Cody would come on here and talk about his experiences in a in a second. Hayden would come on here and talk about his experience. Um Eli would come on here and talk about his experience. Like, there's no reason we couldn't open this up and sure. I mean, yeah, the guys at Workshop, like I think you know, if we want to accept the fact that we want to build a competitive scene, and yeah, we we have some good resources that we can just kind of and that's actually what I like about the vintage scene is because there is a scene.

SPEAKER_04 52:12

I mean I'm living it because we're we feel the competitiveness, like, oh man, uh Dimitri got this like you know, amazing Banty or something like that. And while like, but I'm I'm happy for him, but I'm like, I gotta get something better. I gotta get well, I gotta, I gotta just like I gotta make sure I'm getting out there to to source this. And it's like a lot of people might hear that and they might be like, oh, you just want like the more valuable thing, you want to like gloat about.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

It's it's about like you do though, like subconsciously, and that's not a bad thing. Like, well, the bigger thing is it's it's hard for me to be like, I'm a writer or I'm a photographer, yeah. And then you see people that are really close to you doing obviously doing more with the the thing that you're claiming to do. That's hard, but that also forces you to be like let's get to work, right? You know, if you feel like like lazing lazing around for a moment, that's good motivation to be like, don't focus on this bullshit, focus on the thing you actually care about, yeah. Like, I you know, social pressure is a necessity of human nature in a lot of ways. It doesn't mean you should make that the sole driver, but it is something we're missing and I do think it's affecting the overall quality.

Creating Work Versus Finding Stuff

SPEAKER_04 53:43

And I think it's what's interesting in comparing like a vintage or a vinyl record hunting scene, you know, compared to a foot photography scene. There's nobody out there that's like going through thrift stores to try to find somebody's photo that they took that is uh like a well-known artist or somebody who isn't known and their work is crazy, like or like a fan, like a like a somebody's family scrapbook photos, and there's like some miraculous photo in there that's like they took randomly, and it's it's like museum-worthy. We're not out there hunting to find something somebody else made that has value to everyone, and that's what's interesting about the vintage and the vinyl scene. You know, you're finding a rare Beatles record, you're finding a rare psych record, you're finding a rare t-shirt. And like you did all the work to find it, whether it was connecting with someone who was wearing a shirt and you built a relationship, and then they took it to the house and you, you know, bought the stuff from them, or you found a thrift store, or whatever. What's interesting about the photography scene is it's a lot harder in it, not just photography, filmmaking, anything where people are making the thing that might have value to the greater population. It's way harder to make something. Um that we're talking like timescales of a week versus timescales of years. And just that that you are going to take a photo, make a film, write a script, write a write a book, whatever that gets out there and then become something that makes the other people in your scene like go, you know, want to keep up with you. It's easy in the vintage and the vinyl scene because it's like, well, if if he's out there finding that t-shirt or those vinyl records, I can be out there doing it too. Because I'm just finding something that already has all the value. But to be with like-minded people to try to make something from nothing, yeah, that you put out and all of a sudden, like, did you go to his gallery exhibit? Like, oh my god, like these photos are unbelievable. And it's funny though, because it's like Beatles tea. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:53

Well, like that's just one step removed of what we're talking about. Right, right. That's just the yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:00

And what's funny is there's something there's uh there the the the something interesting about like if I post Instagram, like I found this Nirvana tea that's pretty rare. And you know, people like DM me, like, oh my god, where'd you get it? Like, how much do you want for it? Like, did you thrift that? You know, like there's tons of questions and all that stuff, and there's some people that like congratulate you, you know, are you gonna keep it? All this stuff that it creates. And then I have a video on my the camera and photography channel that goes crazy um most recently. And there's a there's a different, you can feel the difference in how they're talking to you about it because you know, I don't have a lot of pride in this buying this nirvanity from this woman. Like there was some work involved, there was some talking, you know, the there, you know, it wasn't this big thing, but to have had an idea for a video and script it and then make it, and while it's just me giving my thoughts on this idea that I think Apple's gonna re-release Aperture, all these people watched it. Shameless plug. I know. You know, link a description, but all these people watched it, and and and while there is the the probably the bulk of the reason people watch it is because the value that exists around this piece of software that Apple discontinued, like there's just people are hungry for something other than Lightroom, and I created something that kind of scratches that itch. But part of me goes, but for it to you know not die on the vine at 2,000 views, like there had to be some craft and quality in what I talked about in the script and all that stuff. And there's there's just a lot more pride and excitement about having made something from an idea I had than it is about finding something.

SPEAKER_01 58:01

Yeah, it's what they're both super fun. It's creating and consuming, like it's the difference between those two things, and one of them is like it's easy to consume, but like that yeah, like the things that you consume and sell aren't the things that are gonna like nothing's gonna outlive you in a significant way, right? Like by a certain amount of time, like everybody kind of fades away. Yeah, but we do like this idea that something's gonna kind of outlive us, just sure.

SPEAKER_04 58:29

Yeah, it's just by like a couple of things. I really love that idea, sadly. Like I'm my ego makes me fixate on it too, uh sometimes unhealthily.

SPEAKER_01 58:37

Yeah. I it's just but yeah, when you create something like that's more aligned with that, yeah, that feeling. I mean, I I do think almost there. Yeah, we're at 59. Um so we'll chop it here in a second. But I do think that um and maybe we do like I would I would love to and like I don't know if you have something to add. I don't want to just completely off off rail as or make us go another 20 minutes. I mean we can always just you know clear these out, but I want to we've talked about it uh you know a lot before, but I want to really start trying to. I mean, yeah, I like I think the podcast is an easy step. You know, I'm not saying that it has to turn into we're always coordinating guests and da da da da, but I don't see any reason why we can't, yeah. You know, hey, hey, do you want what are you doing next, you know, next Thursday? Yeah, whatever, obviously not next Thursday, but do you want to come? Will you just get another mic? Yeah, like if we set it up to make the process easy, yeah, you want to come and shoot the shit with us for an hour. Um I think that that is something that could be necessary or could help. Yeah. Um well yeah, you're you know, the podcast has a an like like a photo walk, yeah, a mechanism for and you can get a little deeper and we can really start to but then also, yeah, you you know, we talk to somebody and it's like, oh, I'm gonna do this, this, and this, and then you start to hold each other a little bit more countries. That's right, and taking out these concentric circles of expectation, and you start to force progression in a sense. And um, maybe this is just a mindset more so recently because it's like I'm finally broke broke free or like broke out of that, you know, just working mindset. But yeah, I mean I I really I mean I I would like to create something that's a little more sustainable in in terms of community and just just a little more. I mean, yeah, I got the feeling leaving that that table read. And I mean, yeah, there were 40 people there, and the like my my buddy was the only one who I left when I was like like oh man, what Eric just did really inspired me. Yeah, but it did, and you know, he's not from Oma, he's he lives in LA, and right, um and you know that's unfortunate because I'm like, oh man, that was really inspiring. I'm like, but he came here from LA, and like that's where his level of craft is being motivated, and he he's around a bunch of people from you know AFI and yeah, things like that. Yep. And even I mean, he'll he'll talk about how the people at AFI are just there's a lot of them that are just there dicking around and wasting time and not taking things seriously. And there's people here who I talk to and they're like they have the guise of taking something seriously, and they don't, and I get the opposite of when I leave a conversation and I'm buzzing and I'm inspired. You talk to somebody who thinks they take it seriously, but it's apparent that they don't, yes, it's depressing. Yes, and I don't mean that I mean I it it is a kind of uh like I I I'm not gonna try to sugarcoat it. You talk to somebody and whether it's like a like a Dunning Krueger, whether it's just uh they're approaching it maybe from something where you're not seeing eye to eye with that approach, doesn't mean it's wrong, but uh or maybe it is more of a self-centric idea. It's upsetting. Yes. You can leave that and feel just as and so I I do think it's important.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:36

And you know, we've talked about like the gatekeeping and things like that, and how do you start to yeah, well, and and just the the mechanisms of society, I think that sometimes put blinders on us, whether it's just employment, traditional employment, you know, like I just you know, I gotta plug away my nine to five, you know, and I carry that with me, you know, before and after I start work. I think the internet, social media, just like numbing anxiety by plugging in. And it makes it easy to just go, you know what, I'm just gonna watch YouTube videos about this um instead of actually doing it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:15

I'm gonna like get a secondhand high that somewhat scratches the itch.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:19

And I think content creation for me does that too. Like, well, I'm scratching the itch because I'm talking about this camera and the photos I took with it on my YouTube video. Um, so like I'm doing it kinda, but I'm not actually making work or a project or uh a gallery or anything. Some of that or learning the dark room, learning, developing, you know, like really like learning all aspects of the craft. It's like I'm getting what I need. Um, so like I'm good, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:47

And it's just demystify like you you somebody, I mean, again, like it's just that thing. If you if you auctioned a script tomorrow, you know what I would be doing immediately after. I was like, that's amazing. Let's go get a drink and celebrate. Yeah. I'd be right. Like, yeah, you know, I I mean, I I left uh I left a read the other day and I was like, I gotta write. Yep. I mean, you know, you you try to self-motivate and do that, but you're just like, I gotta take this seriously.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:20

And so fire. And so I have felt that in my YouTube communities because I'll see like my buddy Brandon has a video about a camera that rips and gets almost like a I think it's at a million views, or one of the final cut guys, you know, has a video that just catches fire. And while I'm not necessarily like wanting to chase virality, I want to be like something I made, an idea I had, the way I talked about it, the way I told that story, you know, whatever it is, resonated with people and it it took off. And my last my last video, you know, getting almost a hundred thousand views, I can see it mo you know, motivating my my YouTuber friends in the same framework you're talking about with the screenplay uh uh example. And that is so exciting to feel that exchange of competitiveness, healthy competitiveness, support, and all of that. And I think part of the photo walk is is there a way to translate what I've been experiencing on YouTube amongst my friends to something in Omaha even more?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:34

I would I would love, I mean, if you get a chance to yeah, talk to Hayden about it or if you meet somebody new. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I I am gonna I I I mean I'm very introverted. Like it's difficult to you know take the spirit head and but I I you know, in in my head, I'm just like, oh, I want to make sure that I earn it on my own. Like or f I feel like I deserve whatever I want. Like I don't just want to. Push something out there to kind of fabricate a result. Um but yeah, I mean, you know, hopefully it starts to become more clear in the actions that we take. Um whether it's having guests on the podcast that kind of push that and open up the community a little bit, um hosting an event or something, something like that. Like we never host events, we never think about hosting events. I'm not a huge event fan, right? I don't like going to events per se. Yeah. Um, but I understand the I I mean, I yeah, I I I felt this yesterday when I called you. I just left a sh a shoot um working with Jeff and I was like really motivated. And I was like, man, I gotta I wanna, you know, get coffee with somebody. I wanna, you know, do this or do that. Um and yeah, I I don't know. I I I don't want this, this is a conversation that really resonates with me. Like I don't want to just let this kind of die on the on the vine in a in a sense, because I think that it's something we've talked about a lot for a long time.

When You Finally Own The Label

SPEAKER_01 1:07:18

Um but then again, you and I have never I mean I'll be honest, like the last year is the first time that I've really felt not that there's like an identity problem, but I mean I feel confident in if somebody was like, what do you do? I I don't feel completely off put or like I'm lying or like I'm I mean obviously there's a there's a bit of imposter syndrome and things like that, and I I think that's always there, but I I don't feel like I'm fabricating if I'm like I'm a photographer or I'm a writer. I don't know if that's been true before. Um and that might just be like a powerful self-realization, and maybe that's just you know getting older and you're like, well, gotta do something. Yeah. Um but it's like, yeah, and you know, I'm what I'm not, I'm not a director. Yeah. I'm not. I'd like to be, but I gotta do it first. Um, but I feel like I've like with the other two things, obviously I haven't done anything to a level that you know you might think. It's not like I'm getting vogue spreads or I don't know what classifies yourself. Or yeah, but I look at my work I look at my work that I create and I'm like, I like this. Yeah. And not in the sense of like, oh, I like this, and I but I'm like blissfully unaware. Like I look at my work and I look at other work and I'm like, I like this. You know, maybe it's not my favorite thing, or maybe I'm like, I can do better. Um, and I definitely come into contact with really great work, and I'm like, I gotta get I gotta I gotta get back out there. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, do you feel that way? I mean, I know you don't have a huge issue with like criticizing the the work, but like with photography, you feel like you're so I'll give you an ex perfect example, like you know, you're talking about like what what do I do?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:22

You know, I have no problem telling people, you know, I make content or I'm a YouTuber or whatever. Like I have full ownership of that because I'm you know have multiple channels and do have a long time. Which that that video got me monetized, by the way. I'm up to 14 to 14 for the month. I'm like, sweet, try to get these revenue streams going. But um, I had the Leica with me, I forget where I was, and someone was like, Oh, are you a photographer? And my first thought was, Nope. Yeah, not because of self-deprecation.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:56

That's what I tell people, anyways. No, not really.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:59

Yeah, not because of self-deprecation or imposter syndrome or I'm full of shit or anything like that. It's just like I haven't made anything. Yeah, I've made it's it'd be like if I wanted to say I was a content creator and I shot 10,000 clips of different videos, but I haven't made a video. Like I I have the camera, I've got the microphone, I've got the editing software, I've got all the tools, and I've shot a lot of A-roll and talking ahead and vlogging or whatever, but I've never actually like turned it into a video that I put out there. And that's what I feel like it is with the photos. Yeah, I've been making a lot of individual photographs, and I don't really count posting it on Instagram, I don't really count putting in an Instagram story. Yeah, even for me, if I had made my website where I had some photos up there as like a portfolio, I'm like, this doesn't really count to me. Yeah. Um, now I am not someone that wants to say, okay, everyone, here are the rules for what allows you to call yourself a photographer. You have to make money, you have to have a gallery, you have to publish a book with an actual publisher, not a self-published what you know, whatever. That, you know, I I I'm not about those rules, but for me personally, if I someone asked me that and I was like happily to say, Yes, I am, yeah, there are some things that would need to exist for me to feel that way. Yeah. There would have to be a book, there would have to have been a gallery exhibit, there would have to have been peep, you know, an audience taking in your work or buying, you know, buying your work or or for something bigger than for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:37

I think it's like if if the follow-up question is, oh, can I see some of your work? Yeah. And you have a sense of pride and and confidence, and like, yes. And you're you know, you share that and you're like you don't feel like, yeah, you know, that's where that's where it kind of changes, yeah, for me. Yeah. And if it's like, can I see your work? And I'm like, yes, and I'm confident that this work stands on its own. Yeah. And you know, take me or anything I might tell you here out of the out of the picture. This work is something that if you encountered, you would be like, Oh, I want to learn more about this or whatever. Um, and that goes for yeah, any of those disciplines.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:30

And I think that's going back to the photo walk. I wanna meet people who aren't just getting a thousand video clips but never actually making a video. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:41

Like who is yeah, like serious about making work? And you have and yeah, I think the seriousness to like you have a lot of people that can just be making the you know, making the thing, and it's it's just not. There's not the level of commitment that we would like to see. I don't know, I'm not saying you need to be. I mean maybe I am though, like it you can't just say you do something, you can't just do something and then not respect your tiny place and the lineage of everything that came before and everything that's gonna come after. And like you're completely insignificant in that line. Yeah. But if you're taking it seriously, you're trying to actively contribute something to that, and you're not doing it because you want to actively contribute to yourself. And maybe you do want to like you know, have a gallery that goes well or you can make money or something, but it I I just want to see more of this is about the thing, it's about making the thing something that is in conversation with everything that's come before it and everything that's come after it. And it's it's in the conversation that's worth having, not the 10 million bits of noise on either side of that. Yep. Um

Momentum Beats “What’s The Point”

SPEAKER_01 1:14:10

I don't know. That's what I that's what I've been chewing on a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:14

But so we'll see what comes of the photo walk. It's the second one. I missed the first one because I was out of town. I think it was at NAB, but I'm curious. I'm I think especially after talking about it, there's less of that. What's the point of this? You know, because I think that that type of thinking is is, and this is a little dramatic, a little hyper hyperbolic, but it's sort of like the poison that also what's the point of making a zine and just self-distributing? What's the point of making this website? What's the point of trying to get into this gallery? What's the point of starting out? What's the like like I feel like that's like a almost like for me, like a little bit of a a disease of the mind that gives me an excuse to just stay home and watch TV.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:04

Well, again, it's just it what it what's the quote? It's like momentum is a spiritual quality. Yeah, yeah. That's I mean, yeah, that that that's kind of the core of a lot of this is the point, is just the momentum or the the hope for momentum.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:20

It's been a golden afternoon, and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with someone else.