75. Leave Room for the Accident

We open on what a trip does to you once you're home. Time away, then the return, where the familiar looks sharper and the work feels urgent again. That sets up the thread running through the whole episode: the difference between a trip planned down to the hour and one you make up as you go, and why the unplanned kind tends to leave the stronger memory. No itinerary, no booked room, just landing somewhere and letting it unfold.

From there we get into friction: the small obstacles we put in our own way to avoid doing the things we actually want to do, and how clearing them is most of the work. That carries into gear. The pull to bring everything, the freedom of bringing almost nothing, and the old principle that a fraction of your tools does most of the lifting. What sits in front of the camera matters more than what's in the bag.

The back half settles on one question: when does skill start working against the work? Too controlled, too finished, no room for the accident that makes a thing feel alive. We talk about how constraints, small budgets and short schedules, can produce better work than freedom does, and why mastery alone isn't the whole story. If it were, the most experienced would always make the best thing, and they don't. We close on keeping expectations small enough to leave room for chance, plus a sweet interruption from home. -Ai

Transcript

Why Getting Away Resets Everything

SPEAKER_00 0:00

It had been a golden afternoon, and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with someone in some way.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Always makes me appreciate Omaha more. I do think there is something like getting away on a pretty regular basis. I always get back and I'm just like can see everything a little bit better.

SPEAKER_04 0:25

We've my wife and I have been talking about that all week.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Just like, man, everything's different when you get back.

SPEAKER_04 0:31

It it it is. She uh had a pretty not revelatory, but you know, just like probably one of her better liberating vacation experiences. We didn't do anything crazy, but it really hit its stride when just us as a family got to Estes Park and she um what kills me is that you know she she struggles with the expense of it all, and for the months leading up, it gives her a lot of anxiety and all that stuff. And I said, You are gonna be the one the whole week after we get back, saying last week at eight o'clock we were at dinner, yeah, and it was awesome, and like you know that's gonna happen. And the better we get at doing this together, um the more intense that feeling's gonna be. Yeah, and so she's added two extra days to our trip to my mom's for the fourth of July. Yeah. And she she was worried like she was imposing on my because well, one of my forms of creative expression is just experiences. It's like this try to find this balance between it's planned, but it's unplanned. And you go, there's a little bit of wing in it, you kind of know the framework, and you just let things unfold. You read the room, you read yourself, you self-audit, and it just kind of spools out. Yeah, and it can create these experiences that are really great. And it's not anything crazy, it's a walk in the woods in Rocky Mountain National Park, swimming in the pool with the kids at the hotel, and then go having a nice dinner together. 100%. But you're not at work, you're not all those things that we talked about in the last episode, these sort of rails that you're on, work and hobby and this and that, and all like these objectives and the house and the blah blah blah, all that goes away. And it creates this powerful experience that you take a little bit of that with you when you get back and apply it. It's not just right back into those blinders, those rails. Um, and I think she's feeling that right now. It's just like a perspective shift that makes everything a little bit more um doable, um, a little bit easier. And you can tell there's flirtation, there's little jokes, there's remember we just feel like floatier, like yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

I mean, that's a really good word though for it. But you're like levitating, and I mean, also you start to reevaluate your experience a little bit. Like, you know, we were we took some time away. Now we're back, and it's like oh, like one of my favorite things the last couple of weeks has been waking up and I'll have coffee at the table in the yard or on the porch and I'll read. And I'll have coffee and I'll read. And you know, it's like I used to not do anything after five. Yeah, and now it's like I'm just charged. I can't wait because after five is when I'm like really most excited to sit down and do some writing. And you know, it's like sometimes I want to write in the morning, sometimes I want to write at eight o'clock at night. I can just write till like eleven or whatever. Uh I go out to you know, take photos and I'm excited and everything. I'm like excited to see everything. I've I I've been walking all the time. Just love going for a walk. Or like yesterday I went over to the bakery and I got a croissant, and I was like, this is so jealous. Well, but I'm just like, that's fine. Like that's great. I love that. And you know, I get to do that when I'm here, and when I'm away, you do other things, and then you get to and if you just do it all the time, you're like, yeah, yeah. It's fine, I can do that. But also you you get back and you're like charged up to yeah, see people and do things and hang out and this and that, instead of just like being, you know, I don't know. It's kind of anti-routine.

Planned Framework With Room To Wing It

SPEAKER_04 4:23

Well, I read a really good way. Read this article that popped up about Anthony Bourdain when he would do no reservations. It was we're not planning anything. Yeah, you as the fixer or the producer, like you guys can have a general idea of some stuff to go do, but we're gonna land, we're just gonna kinda figure it out, let this unfold. Now I have to imagine because it's obviously yeah, you gotta like maybe they're gonna leave with this person, yeah. You know, or you know, there's probably some bullshit, but maybe maybe he was like, Look, I don't want to know anything. Uh like I just wanna let this thing unfold. Um, and I remember doing that when me and two of my buddies in film school went to Berlin for the weekend. We were in London and we were like, let's just let's you guys want to go to Berlin? Let's go. Like, let's book tickets. We had we had no hotel book, nothing. We got there super late, walked around, tried a couple different places. It was the best, dude. Yeah, we had no idea where we were gonna sleep. We tried a holiday in, we're fully booked. We tried a hostel, we're booked. We found some random little hotel, got a room. We all went to bed, got, you know, you know, and just we had no idea what neighborhood we were in. We we didn't couldn't understand the train system, and I'm telling you, man, it was awesome. It was awesome.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

I um for this weekend, I was I was going back and forth. I was like, I'm considering taking the bike down. So for for a minute, we were like, Oh, we're not even gonna take the truck, we're just gonna take the car, yeah, not worry about the camper or do any of that because gas and everything, it's just like oh Jesus Christ. And then I was like, what's the like the point? Like, go down, we're gonna spend time. You can make it this tight thing with really, you know, really intense rails. And why? Yeah, and now I'm like, I I think I might take the bike. I just follow down, go a different route, go through the Ozarks, take my camera, uh get a motel for like 50 bucks or something on the way down, a couple of them maybe, whatever. And just like and part of me is like a little bit, I don't love doing things myself. Obviously, I like doing it once I'm doing it. Yeah. But the idea of like just getting in the car and going somewhere, just doing something myself, there's always just there's like a bit of friction there. You mean by yourself? Like by myself. Like so the this idea would be I mean, I obviously like we'd stay together, but she has to be at work on Monday. She used to work on Monday. Yeah. Um, so like she would have to make sure she's and I I would like to, you know, just kind of do the do the boop, boop, boop, yeah, and get down there at two. But yeah, and but I was just like, man, it's that's a lot of it's a lot of a lot of trouble. Like, you gotta take the bike, something happens, like, oh, that's just an extra thing, and I gotta worry about what to do with the bike. And it's easier not to. Easier not to. And then I'm like, why the fuck did I buy this thing in the first place? Well, you're hoping I'd buy one. Well, too. I'm still hoping you'll buy one. All for it. I just can't believe it. We need to get that going. A S A P, please. I know. I think you just need to bite the bullet on the manual thing too. I think you'll be absolutely fine. I know I will be. You will be so fine.

SPEAKER_04 7:37

The same thing that's that tells you, like, I yeah, I no, I'm not gonna take the bite, but it's the same thing that tells me you gotta do an automatic coordinating my limbs and brother.

SPEAKER_02 7:48

We because you talk about the Berlin thing, like you and I could definitely just be like, all right, like even if it was imagine even if we just did like three weekends a year. Oh yeah, dude. Where we just went and just made it all up. And just made it up. Yeah. We're gonna try to cover 1500 miles in any direction. And well, that goes figure it out.

SPEAKER_04 8:09

That goes back to not I want to start at a thread, uh, uh a connected thread, but there's something about that unplanned, but then a little more rustic. You got you know, motorcycles, maybe you're camping, you know, whatever it is, that that this idea of primitivism that we talked about in a previous episode from the um the Henry Cartier Person book, where you know he in the 1920s is like seeking out primitivism, just reading Rousseau and just like going to places where he has nothing, he doesn't have the normal tools and comforts of 1920s uh Europe. And uh I was talking to Aaron, my wife, about that on the drive, and it resonated with her a lot. And um, you know, just trying not to um crowd yourself around with all these little comforts that make it, you know, everything just feel nice and easy. Um, and yeah, I hear you on the bike down down in Nashville, and you know, same thing for me. Like, well, there's just a lot of fear surrounding it. Yeah. And so it's easier to just stay away from the idea of getting a bike. There are some real limitations, like I can't just go drop two to four five grand on a bike tomorrow. I still haven't paid off the Leica, like I got a lot of stuff I need to do. Right. Um, you know, to not be like legitimately irresponsible. But at the same time, you know, are you, you know, the clock's ticking here on uh old old old man O'Brien? Like if you're gonna have these experiences, you gotta better move your butt.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

Yeah, no, I mean I mean, and that's that's how I look at everything. I mean, yeah, I like my if I explain it as I have an extremely long-term view on everything. But at the exact same time, I have the shortest possible term view on everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like and I don't know how those two things work together, but yeah, it's like you don't you never know what tomorrow is gonna bring, and you you have to plan like you're planning for 20 years down the line.

SPEAKER_04 10:06

On the drive back from Colorado, or actually, I think on the way there more, you know, like we have the car play up, and I put it on a view where it's not super uh something like the whole state, and you're watching your blue dot. It's you know, a couple clicks in where you can see maybe three or four small towns along the interstate. But in Nebraska, as you're going across 80, there's you know the the old highway that was and that served the function of the interstate back in the day, but you're stopping in small towns, you know, you're not just ripping across the whole state at 80 miles an hour. And we just talked about like how awesome would it be to just set out on those old highways and just make up uh an outing. Like this was more like when when she's retired and we're older and we don't have two little kids with us. We can just be like, we don't know where we're gonna stay. Yeah. And we're gonna drive along this highway and just see what it looks interesting to go check out. Because she sees something, she'd be like, Oh, I wish we could go over there and you know check out the town or those buildings or this or that. And obviously, me with the camera and the M11 was right there, ready to go the whole time. Yeah, like sounds great. Yeah, I'm like, I'm ready to stop a million times um to get oh, there's a photo, there's a photo. I mean, that's all I do when I'm driving. I'm like, I miss that. You know, I'm essentially keeping track of the photos that I missed. Yeah, and it's not like a depressing thing, like, oh, it's sort of like I would have taken that, I would have taken that, would have taken that.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

That's a good one, that's a good one, you know, the all along the way. And sometimes I get caught up in like the idea of the trip and I just don't take any photos, or I take several photos and they're all just not good. But you know, you are putting yourself in the position, and then also just like the experience of the thing. I mean, that's the biggest thing is I'm just like, I have this bike, and like there, you know, it's not like there's a huge I mean, that thing uses no gas, right? Like, don't need it in oil, don't need new tires. Well eventually, but sure, whatever. Yeah, but you're good right now. Yeah, I'm just like, okay. You just let it sit here, or you wanna you wanna use this thing, right? And it's like, oh, but then I'm gonna have to follow. And like, what if I it's like okay, worst case scenario, just like leave it in the garage in Nashville or something for a little bit of time.

SPEAKER_04 12:26

Well, I feel like what we talked about in the in in the last episode is is similar to this. If I had a bike, then we would be little bike buddies, right? Yeah, yeah. And we would hit the road. Bike buddies. We'd hit the road. There's stuff, and this goes like to the scene thing. Like, when there's other people who are doing it, not only do they either lead the way or inspire you to join them or to invite them along with something you want to do, but there's uh I don't want to say competitiveness, but you know, you getting the bike makes makes me go, oh well, this there's more of a reason for me to do it now.

SPEAKER_05 13:03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:04

Um, there's like it there's an even deeper experience I can have rather than me just getting a bike to save some money on gas to drive to the coffee shop or Josh's shop or whatever, and not have a big truck that I'm driving all the time. And so it's just weird how that it's not weird. I mean it's very obvious, but it's like morphs the possi the potential. Yeah. Well, and I, you know, the the it just the the Yeah, I it it it it makes me feel like we're really supposed to be around each other a lot more. Yeah. Like we're not supposed to live isolated 15 miles apart and see each other on the phone or on social media or whatever. Because if you were actually around each other in a community or for lack of a better word, a tribe, you would be you know, sharing these experiences all the time.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

Yeah. Um, I mean, it's like, yeah, you get you know you're yeah you see these trips where people are like, oh, I did 3,500 miles across the country, or you know. I know a guy who's d biked across the country, he has a full-time job, he has kids, he has a wife, he's biked across the country twice. Yeah, so cool. Across the entire United States twice in the last 12 months. Wow. And that's just a big time commitment. It is, it's just what he loves to do, though. Yeah. So like he'll take off five days from work and you know, he's got yeah, you know, nine days and he'll make it happen. Yep. He coordinates that with his family, and uh yeah, yeah. I mean, it's like two young kids, a wife, and lives

Motorcycles, Fear, And Doing It Anyway

SPEAKER_02 14:38

in Alaska, and he's built the circumstances where he's yeah, I'm on a bike across the country. Like, imagine the things that he's uh seen in those miles and like how that's shaped him and his experience. It's like that's in 12 months. And so, yeah, and then I I see stuff like that, and I'm just like, yeah, you you can either do it or you right don't.

SPEAKER_04 15:02

And you know, I don't know what your dynamic is with Audrey in that regard, but she always comes across to me as someone who is, you know, down and open to those experiences that she is a little bit more maybe um uh optimistic or hopeful or you know, glass half full for lack of a better uh phrase. Um, and this isn't me uh just the difference that with my wife is I feel like there's a lot a lot more impossibility in the way uh for that, you know, very practical, very pragmatic, very logical, um, and uh, you know, sees those limitations, whether it's financial, time-wise, etc. And so it makes it something that would be you know difficult to overcome. And I and I'm a little bit more reckless on the flip side. Yeah. I'm you know, like, oh, you know, X mount in the bank account, who cares? Let's we'll figure it out, you know. That's sort of much bigger risk taker, which has obviously its upside and its downsides, just like with my wife. So um yeah, I I wish that was a little easier for the case.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

I mean, I have the hardest time just being again, it's just like I like my comfortable little whatever. I I you know, I don't the idea of travel is great, and I always love it when I'm doing it, right? And especially when I'm done with it. Yeah. But I the you know, I spin it all up. I like being oh, I wake up, I read in this chair, and I move to this

Friction, Tools, And The Gear Pareto

SPEAKER_02 16:35

chair and I do this, and you know, I see these people, and I love a routine. Right. I also love the but yeah, it's just getting building the environment where I'm very friction averse. Like if if I if I and so that's whenever I identify something that I want to do, the the first step is think of where does the friction come from? Right. First, first of all, like, do you really want to do this? Right. So there's a lot of just shit you can waste time and money and effort on. And so it's like, do you really want to do this? And then if it's yes, it's okay, how can I make this experience frictionless for myself? Right. What tools can I get? What yeah. And and that's not like getting into like, oh, I'm gonna obsess about you know the gear or whatever, but it is like, oh man, this is a point of friction that is gonna prevent me from doing this. And you try to eliminate that as best you can. Yeah. And once you once you do that, then yeah, it just opens up the experience.

SPEAKER_04 17:34

I wonder too, if like that sort of going into some of these experiences where you wing it, is that if you don't know where you're gonna stay or what you're gonna do, you're not gonna like think about, well, if we're gonna stay at this type of place, then I need to have this and I need to have that. Like, you know, because because sometimes when I kind of tool up for something, like, oh, I know I'm going here. I need this and I need this and I need this. Then when I get there and I realize I was wrong in the tools that I need, I'm like really frustrated. Yeah, I don't have the right thing for this. But when I wing it, I'm like, well, I didn't know what the hell was going on. So I'm not upset that I don't have this thing or that thing. Like you, there's a there's a there's just an easier surrender to to um whatever the truth of the situation is, yeah. Um and so it's much more freeing in a sense.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

Yeah. Um it is frustrating to get somewhere and be like, I don't have the thing I need, but yeah, no, it I think you're what you're getting at is and maybe it's just more figure figure out the things that are general that are it's like you know, Pareto principle applied to gear tools or whatever, right? You're gonna need like 20% of the shit is gonna do 80% of the heavy lifting, yeah. Figure out what that is, and then don't worry about the other, you know, 80% of nonsense. Um like maybe that's yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:08

Well, I just talked about this is like a little bit of a kind of probably feels like out of nowhere, but I just talked about in a video that I made on the Final Cut channel. Like I I was planning for NAB, right? And I'm like, well, I want to make a video where I interview everybody about the state of Final Cut Pro. I'm like, I don't want to bring my EOSR and a boom mic, you know, a boom mic that's mounted on the camera and not that I would boom it. Like it's just heavy to carry around. I have a camera strap, it digs in, I get headaches. Like, I just want to bring my phone, my shitty iPhone 13 Pro, and I just want to hold it up and asking questions. And the the I'm like, but it's gonna sound like shit. If I vlog outside, there's gonna be wind noise, whatever. This video is brought to you, and there's this specific tool that literally takes all those concerns away. Now, does it make the audio sound just a touch process here and there if it's doing some heavy work? Yeah, but I'm like, look, the upside that I don't have to bring all this crap with me and charge batteries and all this when I'm going there, and it's like like I think some people hear that, yeah, you want to make a shitty video as easily as possible.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

No, you just you want to make something where the content takes priority over the the the technical, and you know what? It obviously if you can get those two things to meet at a high level, even better. But no, there's I mean, there are plenty of times where where I've wanted to, you know, where I'm like going to do something or whatever, and maybe not so much recently, but I'm like, oh, I need to bring this and this and this and all this other extra bullshit. And then you either find yourself I mean, uh just taking two cameras on a trip recently is a good like I I just use the queue the whole time. Right.

SPEAKER_04 20:59

Yeah, I brought I brought you know three cameras to Colorado and I used one.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Yeah, and I'm like, you know, I like I'm I'm going through that again, I'm like, which ones? And you know, you want to take it and have the have them or whatever. And it's tough.

SPEAKER_04 21:15

Um and yeah, I don't I don't know the answer per se, but at the same time, I'm like I I just had such a greater uh such a better time with like like knowing that Alphonic would handle the audio, and yeah, the video's not like the exact vibe that I want. Maybe I'd rather have a camcorder or even my EOSR, but I'm like, but I want my experience of the event.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Well, that's that's the biggest thing, right? It's it's like, and when people are like, I don't understand, like you don't want to use all this gear, like yeah, like you the the thing has always been the what's in front of the camera. It's it's like, how do I take better photos? Put more interesting stuff in front of the camera. Yeah. Like it's it's all the it's just what you're putting in front of the camera, right?

SPEAKER_04 22:04

Like it's the lens and the and the filters, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:07

It's it's like all that's gonna do the color science. You're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, I don't wanna drag, and all that stuff is great. And trust me, I I've nerded out about all that stuff. Yeah. But I mean, we've done little like dock shoots or whatever where we have all this gear and shit, and it's just like you, you're you're like, I don't want, I'm not gonna fuss with that shot. Yeah, why? Because it just it's a pain in the ass. I gotta do this and hold the thing, and it's gonna move and it's uncomfortable, and I'm in pain and I'm tired. And we got 18 boxes that we gotta pack up, and it's dark out and it's starting to rain, and it's just like, okay, so what are you doing here? Are you playing with the gear or are you making a thing? Yeah, and yeah, that's that's a huge I'm sure the iPhone is fine. Like you get you'll throw your you'll throw your film convert.

SPEAKER_04 22:56

You know what I ended up doing was I mean, I I you know, I didn't look at the footage or hear the audio and be like, well, I gotta I gotta put you know lipstick on a pig here because this stuff is dog shit. I it

Make The Thing Not A Production

SPEAKER_04 23:08

just made me go, well, if I'm gonna go simple on the production, I want to like really make a fun edit. Like I have an idea of how I want to structure this and you know, kind of tease what these guys' answers are. I want to show some of the fun that we had at NAB, you know, like give some BTS and all that stuff. And it ended up making uh I just felt like I I did more with the edit because that because I went simple on the production side. There was um, this is gonna again, I'm kind of rip ripping us around here, but it popped into my head. Uh so that so Quentin Tarantino released uh Kill Bill Volume 1 and 2 as what he what he calls the whole bloody affair. It's both movies put together as one movie. It's the version he showed at Cannes when he took it there. I saw it in Los Angeles on 35mm. He brought his prints that he had taken at Can to the theater, showed it to us, and it was awesome. They just released it on like 4K, whatever, but they also did a VHS release, which is sold out, unfortunately. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so a bunch of interviews are going around. I think that's like three tapes. I think it's two. Yeah, I think it's just two. There's been an old interview going around where he had a week to shoot the opening scene. I don't know if you remember the opening scene. It's uh black and white, and it's the bride going to the little desert uh Texas town, and you know, she's gonna be she's getting married, and the bad guy it's been a while since I've seen her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's like, We're shooting all week. We've got one week to do this, and I'm getting down to there's two days left, and I still haven't shot the shootout where it's like this guy squibs and this guy shoots and all this coverage, tons of coverage. He's like, There's no way I'm gonna do this the time I have left. So he goes home and he sits down and he goes, How do I solve this problem? And he comes up with the final shot, which is just a wonder, and it's a close on the door, and the bride's in there, da-da-da. Slowly pulls back, and then the bad guys, the assassins show up in frame, they saunter in, the camera's still pulling back. The steady cam operator goes from standing on the ground to stepping inside of a crane bucket, and it pulls back, pulls back, pulls back, end. Yeah, and he's like all of the shit I was gonna do, all these shots, all this coverage, all these squibs got reduced down to one shot, and he goes, It is the best shot of the whole movie.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Yeah, yeah. And I'm just like, it's just you you you get a little creative, yeah. You're just like, oh, how do I?

SPEAKER_04 25:42

But it but it's just like for me, yeah, and again, uh, just the choice to just take my phone, yeah. To me, like like on the I'm gonna make content about this event, like that's what made it fun to do it. That's what made it right.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

I just watched uh rewatched one of my favorite documentaries, and it's uh it's Louis Maul, um God's country. And it's uh I think he made it for like American PBS. Yeah. Um Louis Maul is a French director, and this was started it in like the late 70s, and he finished it in the mid-80s, like 85. Um, 84, 85, Reagan. And it's about this Midwest town. And you watch it and it's just so free. He's talking behind the camera, you know, he's you he's narrating the whole thing, and like these things where you'd be like, oh well, this is you're not supposed to see the director, you're not supposed to. It's one of like the most moving 90-minute documentaries. It's 95 minutes, it's unbelievable. I well, like I've seen it two or three times. Every time I watch it, I'm just like, oh, this is unbelievable. Um, because it he's just like, oh yeah, he's like, we you know, he's French and he speaks English, but he's very like he has that French accent. He's like, we decided to. He's like we

Tarantino, Lynch, And Creative Constraints

SPEAKER_02 27:11

stumbled into this town and we found this lady in her garden, and we just figured we'd have a conversation, and then they ended up it's a six-year project that he he spends a year there. Crazy. Like he's his camera is just so kind, and he's just so gets these people to open up about things where you're just like, Whoa, yeah, especially for like a small Midwest conservative town. You're just like, Whoa, like you're these people are so comfortable around you. And I I just I think about that, and you know, he's probably shooting this on like a little 16 millimeter, yeah. Super simple. He's got the mic, you know, and you're like sometimes the boom will like work into the shot, and you can be like, oh, well, that's not technically correct. And it's like, yeah, well, I've seen a lot of documentaries that are technically, you know, one if you compare them side by side, it's a a hundred thousand times better technically, yeah. That aren't worth a shit. Yeah, and I've this is one of the like for my money, one of the best documentaries in that like just more classical form that's ever been made. Yeah, it's like there's Netflix documentaries where people have spent you know, 40 million, 60 million dollars and they're complete shit. Yep. And this this thing probably costs like a hundred thousand bucks or something, yeah. And it's amazing, and it's still watchable, you know, 40 years later. It's like, yeah, uh you just can't. Yeah, it's just about what's in front of the camera.

SPEAKER_04 28:42

100%.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

And it's about how you get people to feel. And yeah, I mean, if you're hold on, hold on, let me. I got can I mic you up? Can I hold on, can I can I do this? And da da da some of my favorite stuff we ever did was just when it was like me, you, Ian, and Cody. And um I want to find that again, that spirit. And I know there was like, you know, we complain and whatever, but it's like that was that's that's filmmaking. Yep. For like for my money, that's filmmaking.

SPEAKER_04 29:12

And that's what a lot of big filmmakers come back to, you know. They they ascend, they get to the big bug, but big budget, hundred fifty million dollar thing, and then what do they make right afterwards? A nice little quiet indie film to get back to sort of like the vibe that they had when they when they first started out, you know.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

Yeah, I think that's where that's where the magic kind of I mean, there were even times where just like me, Ian, and Cody would just grab the camera and go and shoot some stuff. It's like I want I I want to get that spirit back. Yeah, like I get it. That was you know, we were in our like earlier 20s and whatever, but I want to get that spirit back where it's just like there doesn't need to be a outcome. We're just gonna go out and hang out and shoot this and have a good time. Yeah. And hopefully we get some magic.

SPEAKER_04 30:00

Yeah, that's about the the the cultivation of the magic, not about the the need for validation that the career you pursued is the right one. And uh that's reflected in the fact that you've invested all this money in this gear and you're gonna use it and come hell or high water, even though bringing all that shit into this little tiny house to film this scene, it's like this, you guys, we we don't keep we'll key it off the window and uh you know literally like bounce the light off that wall. Or just use, you know, like this this huge window here. You can just use natural light. Like I don't care about a edge light, you know, whatever. Like it's it's yeah, it's fine. Yeah. Let's focus on some good audio and uh you know, have a nice composition for our and let's let's have a conversation.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

Yeah, and let's like relate to people on a human level and see if we can get some of that. So I mean, yeah, that's I've been thinking about that uh a lot recently. Um I think that goes right right along with the experience of just like don't overthink it. Let yourself kind of be free. Yeah, I mean, it's the that's the same intuition. It's like, oh, I don't want to take the bike, it's gonna be all this thing, it's gonna be this big production. It's like, no, just jump on your bike and go. Like, yeah, that's the spirit. That's like that's what people romanticize is the jump on it and take it, figure it out. But for sure with me. Yeah. Um, should we get in one of these little question thingies? Well, if I'm gonna catch this flick buddy, I gotta bust out of here. 32 minutes. You got a couple more minutes in here? I have five.

SPEAKER_04 31:41

Oh shit. It starts at 9 15. Oh, gotcha. Here though. They'll be they'll be they'll be pretty good. I'll have to settle in and get caught.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

I know. Okay, let's just let's see if we can get to like 40 and then call it.

When Craft Becomes A Liability

SPEAKER_02 31:55

Yeah. Um, let's pick something kind of the accessibility thing is probably too much. It's funny. This is uh the second one is when craft becomes a liability, which is kind of what we've been getting into. So like maybe we just uh the technical, the point where technical skill starts working against the work, over controlled, too finished, no room for accident. Is mastery always progress or does it cost something? I mean, we've kind of already got into that. Like it's that's the it's like, yeah, does mastery start to cost something? I think you I think you really a lot of artists do this, but yeah, you you hear that with filmmakers a lot where it's just it gets to a certain scale and it's like it's Kubrick being like, I need to do clockwork orange after 2001.

SPEAKER_04 32:46

Yeah. Or it's uh, you know, um, there's a photographer that I follow, and they shot commercial work on mirrorless, uh autofocus, you know, high-end uh everything from a Hasselblad to um, you know, probably a Canon or a Sony camera, and they're out like with a M4 shooting film again and developing it themselves. Like I, you know, have mastery of these types of commercial shoots, and I know the equipment I can shoot tethered with the flashes, uh, you know, connected right there, yeah. Digitech, all this stuff. Like, uh, you know, and it's just it's like eh, you know, I want to get back to something that has more friction, that has a little bit more uh of a challenge, or I don't I can't look at the photo right away. Like I don't know if I got it. Yeah, you know, I still hear a lot of them, you know, either, you know, some doing assignment work for publications or doing commercial work, you know, either entirely shoot digital because of that aspect of it, or um I don't do half and half.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

If you have to like there's a difference between a commercial shoot where you're like, I have to get these six shots, yeah, or these ten shots or whatever, versus just kind of go out and find some shots. Like there's definitely a difference. And yeah, I mean, if it's if it's you have to get these, and then yeah, you want you want to be able to look at it.

SPEAKER_04 34:15

Obviously, those guys, you know, the the old timers were shooting film on that stuff for a long time and didn't know if they got it or not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

Uh, you know, maybe there was some stuff in place where they had like a dark room set up and while they it is nice to it is nice to be able to know that you've got it, but yeah, I mean, I mean, I think there's something to be said though too for just especially if it's artistic. Like I this is where it's like the commercial thing. Like um, I mean, I guess yeah, you've got like directors that are working at a commercial level, technically, with everything, but it's like there's there's something about the I think the the most important thing to progressing or continuing to progress, cinema as a as a as a art form, um photography, whatever is budgets just can't be too big. Like expect you can't you can't have expectations. Yeah, you need to make the expectations small enough to where you can try different. Yeah, where you can uh you have room for risk. Yeah. Oh, well, that's that this might not work. That's that clip. But it's okay if it doesn't work because you're not gonna be losing three hundred million dollars or something.

SPEAKER_04 35:26

That's that clip. Um I think it was the Twin Peaks reboot or something with David Lynch where like a production coordinator or something is coming in, like giving him time constraints about you know, he's like, Why the fuck are we doing this? Yeah, like I have to uh I I you know, we just get set up, I could do two takes and then we're done. It's like that's that's that's not the point of all this. And he's just like totally ripped about it. Yeah, yeah. He's like, No.

SPEAKER_02 35:52

That's I mean, that's a guy who really all he cared about was the air, yeah, was the work.

SPEAKER_04 35:57

But you know, if um there was just enough high stakes with Showtime or whoever decided to redo Twin Peaks, and they've got a bunch of money and all this stuff, all these, you know, whatever, you know, like that's whatever they feel is the risk, then they're gonna start putting that pressure on it's ridiculous. Like it's like David Lynch is literally the only reason that his property is worth it.

SPEAKER_03 36:17

Right.

SPEAKER_04 36:17

The reason Twin Peaks was good was because we had this dynamic, and now you're creating a dynamic that makes it so I can't do what I did for the first series, which is why you're remaking this in the or Well, and it's like it's like some people say that Twin Peaks in the original was the best when they were just like, ah, whatever, we're gonna it's over anyways, just do whatever you want.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

And then he just goes off the rails in a sense, but he's it becomes his thing. Yeah. Like that's why his movies are great. Like that's why he's fucking that's why he's David Lynch. That's why he's David Lynch. And yeah, you've got some you know, producer is driving a you know Mercedes AMG, yeah. They're like, um, Mr. Lynch, uh, we don't have time for another taste. It's like get the get the fuck out of here.

SPEAKER_04 37:03

Sucking the soul out of it, yeah, which is what which is what sucks. So yeah, you gotta you gotta keep that in there. Yeah. And sometimes uh sometimes stripping away all the comfort that all the high-end tools and all that stuff provide, or um the seeming infinite possibilities that a big budget might make you feel is there, uh, those are the things that can suffocate you. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

I think fo like focusing your tools and then focusing your your feedback as well. Like just focusing. Like it's a it's what you need to do. Just don't get caught up in the right thousands of possibilities. All that crap.

SPEAKER_04 37:49

Yeah. Craft what was the thing? Craft what was the note on there? Craft.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

Oh, yeah. It was um is mastery always progress or does it cost something? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you you you think about that too, you know, you you hear obviously if if film making or if painting or if writing, if it was just about mastery of craft or you know, a sport, if it was just about mastery of craft, then the oldest would always be the best.

SPEAKER_04 38:25

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

And that's just not true. In some cases, like, you know, has Martin Scorsese like made a bad movie you know, in like 20 years, like he's definitely has full control over all of his tools, but I mean it's just not true where you you see it all the time. Well, um, some like there is sometimes, and you know, sometimes you could argue, especially in like retrospective. You you think about some of these. I I'll just do movie directors in general, but you think some of these like John Ford or um, you know, uh John Houston. I don't I'm just doing Americans named John. Um but you know, these like you you could argue that maybe I mean John Ford kind of continued to progress. Hitchcock, yeah, yeah. Like you could argue that um oh, you're just naming old white guys who worked in Hollywood. Oh, that's um, but you could argue that their best films were the later, like and and maybe that's not the ones they're most well known for, but you can watch it and it's like, man, every one of these is good. Like John Houston, especially, like you watch all of his later films, and it's like every one of these is good. Like it is just technically proficient in the best way. Uh, you know, and John Four, I mean, the searchers were his it's a good one late in yeah, late in his career. It's like that's the movie he's he's most well known for. So I I mean you could argue he's probably maybe more well known for other things. Hitchcock, like you know, Vertigo came late in his career. Um I mean, he'd made 40 movies before before he got there. Um, so there is something to that, but then also you see it all the time where somebody and maybe it's like they're trying something and they don't quite pull it off, or um I so I I mean I'm not discounting mass. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I I do think that sometimes there's also a little bit of magic that gets involved, or sometimes, yeah, it's just like, oh, it gets too big. Yeah, it just turns into too much of a production. Like those guys seem to have enough sense to be like, we need to rein this in, make sure that we can control it.

SPEAKER_04 40:42

I'll be curious with the movie I'm gonna see.

A Sweet Interruption And Closing

SPEAKER_04 40:47

My wife's calling me. So that that nine o'clock, I have to see what it's about. Everything okay? Yes, honey? I'm we're recording a podcast right now. Oh, I miss you too.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

I'm sorry, babe, I'm gonna be back after you go to bed.

SPEAKER_04 41:42

And when I get home, I will come in. I'm sorry, I'm not there.

SPEAKER_03 42:08

That was so sweet.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

Was that goldy?

SPEAKER_00 42:13

That's adorable. Oh man.

SPEAKER_05 42:16

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

It had been a golden afternoon, and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer itself.