78. Waiting to Talk - Conversational Narcissism, the Ego Myth, and Reading a Room

We open by talking about the show: why we want to own our own platform instead of relying on YouTube, and what we'd want out of having guests on. Neither of us wants to do the standard interview where someone walks through their résumé. We're more interested in how a person thinks over the course of a long conversation than in the story they've prepared to tell about themselves.

That leads into a conversation about friendship and how hard it is to stay in touch as an adult, especially when the work you do doesn't have set hours. We both notice that our closest friendships are the ones with a shared project attached. Matt brings up an idea he came across recently: in any conversation, people are either listening or waiting to talk. We use that to get into conversational narcissism, the reasons we ask each other questions, and whether it's possible to get rid of your ego or if the better goal is learning to work with it.

The second half gets into restaurants. Servers who interrupt at the wrong moment, servers who never come by, and reservation systems that try to manage how long a table stays. It's the same question in a different setting: figuring out what someone actually wants from you. We also talk about how texting has changed the way we communicate in person, and finish with an update on the photo walks and our gallery idea. -Ai

Transcript

Owning The Stack And The Feed

SPEAKER_00 0:00

It had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summary experience.

SPEAKER_04 0:12

It's cool just to own that stack too. Like if YouTube tomorrow is like your channel's cancel, right? We can still make episodes and put them out to an audience of people. Yes. And that's cool to me. I do want to focus on yeah, growing the fan base. I mean, not as like growth as the main metric, but I want to continue to expand it and just because that also broadens the opportunities, especially we want to start having guests. Um we've talked about that for years. We've never done it. Um I think it's exciting to have another person will just move that camera to a medium as well and ditch the wide and just you know where are they gonna sit? Right here right here? We'll move this thing up. I don't know. Move it up, yeah. That's probably the move. Yeah, I don't want to make it complicated. You know, like that's the biggest thing is keep it keep it pretty simple.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Do you do we just have a conversation with them or do we like have to no interview?

SPEAKER_04 1:10

I don't tell us your story. Yeah, I don't want any of that. Yeah, I want it to just be uh because for me, I'm not interested in somebody's story per se. Like people always exaggerate their story, it's selective memory, it's um it's always gonna be some subjective version of what they want to translate about themselves to a public, right? Um I like seeing how people's brains work. That's what's great about these long-form conversations when you're talking to somebody for an hour, hour and a half. I mean, there's some podcasts where they talk to people for like four and a half hours or something. You just get to see how somebody's brain works. And even if what they're saying might not be, you know, true forever, or like I mean, what is like true, but it might not be the most accurate or it might not be the most whatever. You're just seeing how their brain works. Yeah. That's interesting to me, because that I mean, that's always interesting. Yeah. What is somebody and then you know, you start to look to focus that on a topic, and we're you know, pretty photography heavy, but you know, an art in the creative process is kind of the idea here. You know, lowercase a art. Um always. Um I think it's just fun to see how people's brains work. And yeah, we have a lot of people around town that I think would be fun to just have on, have conversations with, and I mean, you know, hopefully that expands. Photographers, filmmakers, musicians, chefs, whatever. Artists, just lowercase A artists. Of all the people. I know one person we won't be having on the podcast because they're too busy shooting the streets of New York City. No bastard. Umbody there. Yeah, nobody there. Um, I uh I I I think that's just I'm a bitter, bitter human. I carry grudges for a long time. It's just remarkable. Um that's a that's enough. That's it. I got it. I got it. I get it. I get it. Um yeah, I think I think that's uh that excites me. Plus, you know, they bring something new. Like we know each other so well, we're kind of you can get we can get into each other's mind a little bit, like, oh, I kind of have an idea of what Matt's gonna think about this, or I have an idea of what Alex is gonna think about this and how he's gonna look at it. We've talked to each other a lot, like you know, talk about understanding how somebody's brain works. We have a pretty good idea of how we process things and think about things, and so it'd be interesting to mix that up a little bit. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Yeah, and I think in those instances, you know, whatever we end up bringing up, like for example, I was watching this Gary Winegrand thing, and he said this, and you know, what like this is what I feel about it. What do you think about it? That person would just share their thoughts on that idea, yeah, as opposed to the temptation is hey everyone, we'd like you to meet Rick. Uh Rick is a photographer here in Omaha, he's been doing it for 20 years. Rick, why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself? What do you do? Yeah, what do you do? What are you working on right now? What you got?

SPEAKER_04 4:26

We could totally do like, you know, what are you reading? What have you found interesting, that that type of thing. But I mean, yeah, I think it's just in the same way that you and I aren't. I mean, our life story creeps out over time in different bits and pieces, but we're not getting on here sharing like personal details, intimate personal details about our life for the most part. Um, but I feel like anybody who's listened for the whole run probably has a pretty good idea of who we are, how we think about things, and yeah, you know, that's kind of what I want to yeah, that's what I want to do with guests. I um I think that it's more interesting for the guests too.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Yeah. Like well, especially if they're not on the hot seat in a sense.

SPEAKER_04 5:10

Yeah, yeah. Like I don't look, I don't care if like oh, you're you're you know, you're here in town because you're pushing this new thing. Yeah. I don't want to talk about that. Yep. You know, we're we're gonna talk about Matt would see this movie. No, I mean not necessarily, but you know, we're gonna talk. We have this the these five topics, and what's what what what's interesting here to you, and yeah, maybe they are coming in hot with something, but and obviously this isn't novel.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Well, that's not zeitgeisty enough. We really want this to come up fast in search, so this is and this isn't a novel approach. Like there are tons of shows that do this, but I do like that where it's more I just think anytime there's a guest, it's just yeah, I mean, even uh with Mark Marin's podcast, which I love, because he eventually gets to a point where they're kind of jamming about stuff that's yeah that's like the housekeeping's done with, but it's usually he usually has to get like an origin story, you know, how many brothers do you but he's you the what the thing I liked about that was he was sort of doing it to get a read on them for how to approach the deeper stuff, and it you know, uh hard to explain, but you know, it then that would then once he kind of got like some basic information, then he could navigate them appropriately and and open things up because they're not talking about your latest movie. I mean, that might get mentioned or your latest book or whatever, but he was trying to talk about yeah, you know, like how are you doing?

SPEAKER_04 6:42

Yeah, yeah. I feel like all the big shows probably do that, right? Like the longer form shows where you start where it's like you're here because of this book. Yeah, or that like there's a Rick Rubin does that, um I mean the um Mark Marin does that. I mean, yeah, whatever big show is, they probably do that. I mean, like I listen to like you know, little economics podcasts, and that's how they do it. It's like, okay, we're gonna talk, spend five minutes on who are you, what are you doing, what are you and then get into it. But I don't know, we'll we'll learn the format as we go deeper. Yeah, I'm sure. But that's one thing I do like, and I feel like this hasn't been super true about his podcast more recently. Um and maybe that's not true, like the couple that I I just haven't been listening to them as much because the guests just don't really interest me as much. Yeah. Um, which you know, it ebbs and flows. Same for true. I'm sure people do the thing here, but like when I'll listen to like Tetra Grammyton or something, I'm like, oh usually about 20 minutes in, they're just talking about like different and it's all related back through that lens of creativity. Yes. And that's what I really enjoy about that. Yeah, and whenever there is a more topical episode that isn't through that, yeah, I'm like, I don't really care. Yeah. Like I I've got other things that I could do.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

And that's the feeling that you know, again, I don't I I want that kind of read on what we're doing, you know, to be a little bit more evident, maybe, you know, like are we setting ourselves up for as this episode unfolds, for the majority of the viewers to be like, I really like when the episodes are more like this, yeah, versus this.

SPEAKER_04 8:42

And and feedback, if there's somebody out there who's watching and they're kicking the air, yeah, they're punching the air, like Reddit is like we we can't all we can do is gauge off of each other, yep. And then metrics. And the we're two people who, you know, we take metrics seriously, but we don't take metrics too seriously. Right. Like it's not our North Star. Our North Star is just this experience, the process of doing it and the consistency of it. And that yeah, you go on a different show and it's a lot easier. Yeah. Part of it was just I wanted to be better at speaking publicly, authentically. And you know, you 100, 200 episodes are gonna get help you do that, I think.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

And yeah, general conversation and um all of that, yeah. But definitely it has definitely helped with all of that. And it's been nice, you know. I hadn't been a guest on a podcast for a while, but it was nice to just feel like perfectly at home and yeah, quickly, whether it was answering questions or offering up an idea and articulating it. Obviously, I have my you know, certain things with articulation and being cogent that I'm not necessarily gonna like uh you know be perfect with, but um certainly an improvement in the from the past. I'm only checking because I need to make sure that my kids aren't getting in contact with me. They're at their aunt's house right now, and my wife, I think, is at home now. She had a busy day um out. She's usually home on Monday, so I I she's kind of the yeah, but I'm playing a role in needing to be contacted as something goes on with the kids, so apologies.

Friendship Maintenance And Creative Time

SPEAKER_04 10:22

No, I think um I don't know, we've done episodes like this before, but maybe uh we can move on and talk about some other things. I kind of want to just talk about life and we've been looking at it because we've been away for a while.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Yeah. Um although we hung out all last weekend, but then this weekend. Oh, wait if we did my hangout. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:41

Like even when like I was on vacation, like you and I had a couple of hour-long conversations and things like that. We typically don't go more than like 10 days without at least touching base and just being like, Hey, how you doing, buddy?

SPEAKER_01 10:51

And I so appreciate you being usually the initiator of that. I which is hilarious because I don't initiate shit.

SPEAKER_04 11:01

I mean, I have people that are like, I'm just gonna stop calling. Yeah, I can't. I can't I ever you never answer.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Yep. I don't know. I I I'm just glad that mean I think about this a lot. I'm like, I am the worst version of me. I'm never the initiator with Alex because I have put myself in a position to not to be overwhelmed, but I have so many things that I could do on a given day that I'm at the bottom of the list. That that I'm I'm I I I'm sort of like almost developed a reliance on you to just let me know when you want to do the thing and I will make it, I will carve out that time of my schedule.

SPEAKER_04 11:40

Well, see, and I I hate it because I know I wouldn't like that per se. I mean I I guess I I don't mind it, but I'm like, man, I wish there was more order to the way we know did these, but it works. I mean, it's worked for 150 weeks or a hundred and more than that at this point.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

I struggle with order, so as my wife will tell you. Like when you put I don't know. I think you're there's some there's some things where like the things type A O C D but that's the thing, that's the thing with that rebel thing. It's uh when there's like this expectation, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:14

Uh, yeah, I'm just like not. That's kind of the way I I like even like today was the best case scenario. Yeah, you want to do it, and you're like, yeah, I'll be there in 20 minutes, and then I'm like, oh, all right, let's make some coffee. Like, let's fucking do it. Okay. Like in you keep everything ready. Right. And then the spontaneity, it's like, yeah, yeah. That's I'm not what am I doing?

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Like well, and I think you sense too, especially because you have a a lot more of the post-production work workload than I do. Um, I think that I think your workloads a little bit heavier than mine. Um and you start, you you know, you ha keep better like emotionally how many episodes we have stored up. Yeah, I know exactly right. So you you start, you feel the pressure before I do.

SPEAKER_04 13:01

Well, no, I'm always, yeah, I'm always looking ahead. I'm like, okay, like, and I don't really see it in days, but I see it in like heat map almost of okay. I know it's like I'm okay, we're traveling here. Um, things are, you know, what do Fridays and Saturdays look like here? And like this is I need to have episodes here in case we're gone here, and like I'm always thinking in like two-week blocks and kind of heat mapping that out. Um, and you know, sometimes if I'm like, okay, we're gonna be gone for a particularly long time, right? I'll be like, okay, we need this many episodes. Um and yeah, we kind of had a summer break. That's how you can think of it. And it it always it it's worked out. I mean, we've been doing this for I think we just did like 78 or something, 77 or 70. So that's 160 weeks more than that. Like that's crazy. That's a pretty good one. Yeah. So all right.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Well, I appreciate your initiation of not only on a friendship level, I feel like you call me and I contact you if there's a movie, like there's something going on, like let's go shoot, or uh, you know, whatever, like there's an event or something. The jo uh Jocelyn has this, and you contact me when we it's time for us to talk. Yeah. Even if it's not anything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:28

No, for sheep or whatever. Just like, oh yeah, let's just catch up and which it yeah, it is funny. Like, I don't I mean, there's definitely a couple of people who I talk to pretty regularly. Yeah, regular for me is not regular for some people.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Like um bi-monthly, maybe? Yeah, legitimately. I mean and and in particular when there's been a long stretch of not actually being in the same room together, yeah. Whether it's the show or doing something.

SPEAKER_04 14:57

I think part of that is introversion, part of that is just like having. I mean, you just described it, like you have a lot of things that you always kind of need to get done. Yeah. Like there's always something that I need to be working on. That's kind of you know, if if you're working around the creative process, you know, and you're not trying to completely schedule it out, then you're always working towards either inspiration or working through an idea, or you're working towards like polishing something, or and most of the time there's like 10 of those balls in the air at once. And so, usually with me, like when you and I talk, it is, and I I I don't mean this, it's gonna sound a little in a in like impersonal, but yeah, there's always usually some kind of like a progression of like something, I figure something out, obviously the podcast, one of the things like we talk about. We've integrated each other into like I can feel like oh yeah, Matt and I talked for an hour, and I didn't just and not that it's not that I'm I feel like I'm wasting an hour if I'm talking to somebody who I care about, but it's just harder for me to be like, okay, I'm gonna talk to you and we're just gonna talk about life for an hour, and I'm definitely gonna learn you know new things and things like that, but there is always like the we can end up just talking about whatever. And there's certain I'm not saying that's completely cut that off, but there is a certain like, oh, I could have I feel like I could have used that or put that to a better use, yeah. Especially if I'm interrupting something like I'm a huge um I'm I'm not in favor of like the random phone call. I know you and I have random phone calls and I random phone call on you, so it sounds a bit hypocritical, but like I'm all in favor of the random phone call if it's about a project that's actively being worked on. If it's and sometimes like I have a buddy like Casey who will just randomly call and we'll talk about we'll just bullshit about something for a few minutes, and like that's that, and we talk, you know, probably every week just about but for the and I don't know, like that's just how our relationship formed, and it works somehow. But like most people, it's like if I just get the random phone call, you gotta catch me at the perfect time, or else I'm probably gonna send it to voicemail because I'm usually like I like to control and initiate that more than I like to, you know. If if I wake up and I'm like, okay, I gotta write, I gotta, you know, I got these four things that I'm in the middle of reading, and then I I gotta find some time to work out, and then we're doing this photo thing, and then I gotta talk to so and so about such and such, and then I gotta have some family time. If I get a random phone call and it kills an hour of that, it's gonna kill more than an hour because it's taking me, if I'm walking around or whatever, it's just taking my mindset out of that thing. So then there's a chance that I don't even get to that thing that I planned, and it can kill a day, yep, and then you're just bitter about the phone call, which is not good. So, for and you know, I know there's differing differing thoughts on this in today's day and age. It's like, well, you just don't care, you don't answer, and it's like, no, that's not that's not why I'm ignoring the phone call. It's because if it's not at the perfect time, like I just can't afford the hour. And I know that's a pretty selfish way to think about it, but you know what?

SPEAKER_01 18:25

It's it happened, it's the same for me. Yeah. I think the thing that the thing that prevents that from happening with us is the fact that we're collaborators on a project, an ongoing project, and obviously we have other things, shared interests that are really close together movie, you know, cinema, movies, writing, and photography. But because we share this project, there's always that foundation when the phone rings, that there's a level of importance to talking. Yeah, even if we don't talk about the podcast, like it's somehow it is related to that.

SPEAKER_03 19:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Which you know, it it's part of me looks at it as like it's almost unfortunate that we're closer friends because of a shared project, but then it's also great because I kind of think it's like because necessary because it keeps us together and it keeps us on top of mind with each other. Yeah. Where I have very close friends, some of them who don't live in the area or do, and I don't see them as frequently because that mechanism doesn't exist. And then there's there's other shared interests, you know, with Alex Bohan going to the movies or whatever, but I don't see him as much as I would like to. Yeah. Because hanging out with him doesn't lead to progress with a project.

SPEAKER_04 19:45

Yeah, and it's progress in a I know it sounds so shitty, but I it's like it's just true. Yeah, like the all of the people who I'm closest with, there is, I mean, like obviously, like I'm close to my mom. Yeah. Uh I'm close to Audrey. Like, I guess our marriage is the project. Like our life, our life. But no, I mean it it it it really like Cody and I are great friends. Like, I like Cody's definitely one of my best friends in Omaha. We will go months without talking to each other. Same here, and then we'll I love Cody. Every time we get together, it's just yeah, yeah, right back into it. It's fine. Like, never what but usually when we're closest is when we're working on a project together. Yep. And so I'm like, oh, I want like whenever I'm like like we're trying to do this film, first person I reached out to I was like, Yeah, let's do this. Like, one because he knows that world and is really good at operating, but I was just like, I'm really excited to have Cody back in like my day-to-day experience. Like, we're just calling each other, right? Like, we talked on the phone. I just walked around the neighborhood for like an hour and a half and we talked on the phone about the thing. This was like a week or week or two ago, and you know, he's busy and he's got his work and he's got his marriage and things like that, but it's just nice to have ongoing projects with people you care about because it does force you to stay.

SPEAKER_03 21:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 21:00

I'm just not good at the staying in touch for the purpose of staying in touch, which is terrible. It's pretty it's pretty selfish, and you know what? I I'm not saying it's like a good thing, but it's just how I'm wired. And it is what it is at this point. Like I can try to I it's not like I just disregard everybody, I try to stay in touch with people, but it might be I we might go three months without talking.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:22

And it that's my feelings for you haven't changed. We just don't have anything to well.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

I think I think it's also a symptom of a positive connection to the work that you're doing, the body of work that you're creating, sort of the mission you have in your life to create a body of work and loving doing that. Yeah. I think about, you know, if I had a nine to five job that I was doing, you know, doing, I was getting paid well, I had benefits, I didn't love it, but I didn't hate it. Time away outside of that, I'm gonna try to find every bit of fun or recreation I can with friends. Let's go to the bar, let's go to the movies, let's do this, let's do that. Like I think I would be very proactive because they are they are uh an outlet for that downtime where I'm escaping from the work I have to do. Yeah. But because we're both doing work that we want to do, yeah. And there is like when there isn't a shared project with one of those friends, especially because the work that we're doing is out of the bounds of nine to five often, yeah. Spending time with them or on the phone or whatever can pull us away from this thing that we're passionately building. Yeah. And sometimes that passion is just passion. Sometimes, you know, for me it's passion and scarcity and nervousness and all these other anxieties and emotions about money and not enough time to get all the stuff that I want done, but then also being my own worst enemy and trying to do too much.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Um and and it it creates it brings that in into the mix as well. So I feel bad that I haven't FaceTime with my buddy Nick in a while. I haven't done like lunchtime chats with my buddy Chris that we've tried a few times. I I I am usually in a place of I only have X amount of hours to get things done in a day, and what I could do is m more than the amount of time I have. So then one of those extra things come in unexpectedly, yeah. Uh it's treated slightly negatively.

SPEAKER_04 23:43

Um, there is a it you get a negative link to it because it's taking away from something that at the end of the day, when you put your head on the pillow, you're like, I would feel better right now if I had done X instead of Y.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Yeah. And and is the is the the real um problem there that when it's all said and done, uh getting toward the end of the time there, you you know, you're saying to yourself, I wish I would have cared a little bit less.

SPEAKER_04 24:09

I wish I would have spent more time with the people. Yeah, yeah. And I I do think though, an important distinction though is not like there is almost like a compulsion to some of the creative projects. Like, I mean, I'm not talking about blowing off your spouse or your kids. Yeah, yeah. The most important relationships in your life stay the most important relationships in your life. And I mean, you're not blowing off anybody, like everybody's busy. Like, I have I guess uh too as I get older, and part of it is just I think youth culture has dominated the online discourse, so a lot of like the ways we see like the frameworks we see these things are very just not realistic, and from the eyes of like 18 to 25 year olds who are now getting to like 35, 40, 45, and they've just been and so now you it's like oh my god, everything's changing. It's like, no, this is just the way it's always been. It's just you dominated the discourse, and now you're aging into a different perspective. But you know, people are like like it was completely normal for years. It's like I haven't seen you for 10 years, and we go get drinks and we're best buds, and you know, we reminisce on the past, we talk about what we're up to now, and like that's just how adult relationships worked. And now it's like there's this expectation, like, oh, you need to be connected. You haven't talked to that person in 30 days that you guys don't care about each other anymore. It's like, no, the norm was I haven't seen you in five years. How are the wife and kids? Like, let's catch up, and you know, if you were good friends then, hopefully you're good friends now because your personalities are probably not gonna shift enough to where you're suddenly, and that's just how things work. Yep. And I've noticed that more and more. Like a lot of people who I mean, I have a pretty close rolodex of friends of like, yeah, if I was, you know, I I would hope like if something happened to me, these people would be at my funeral. And if you know, I was, you know, when we have a wedding ceremony, like these people are gonna be invited. And uh some of them I I don't haven't talked to in, you know. I've I my buddy Brandon, you know, we chat on the phone maybe two or three times a year, maybe two times a year, which usually are in fantasy football season because then we have that project.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

You have you have a mechanism.

SPEAKER_04 26:25

We have a mechanism, yeah, something that we're both in we're chatting and we're texting. And um, yeah, but he's got his family and his life, and it doesn't mean we're not good friends. Right. We might not share like our day-to-day lives. And I've got like two or three friends that I share like day-to-day life with. Part of that, like my wife is one of them, like you know, you kind of know what's going on day to day. Buddy Casey kind of knows what's going on day to day. My buddy Tom and I talk a couple of times every couple of weeks.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

He's got two kids now, and you know, it's harder for him to butt well and I I I sympathize a lot with some of my friends that that have their wife and kids, but then that's it. That's it, yeah. You know, they don't, you know, and that's not to say they pursue external relationships. Well, or they just don't have access to somebody that they connect with. Um now uh they may have friends from you know high school or a college or whatever that live in other areas and it's two to three times a year, maybe even more frequently, texting, you know, stuff like that. So some connection points, but they're not getting the deep, meaningful interaction that you and I have, or when I visit Nick, or if you know, I I do have an extended conversation with him on FaceTime, my buddy Chris from back home, my buddy Micah in Colorado, you know, I have, you know, when I do speak with them, it get it can get deep. Um, you know, personal talk, life updates, stuff they're struggling with, health issues, you know, whatever, mental health issues, whatever the case may be, that we can unpack in an hour and sometimes longer, but to then also not have that in person, you know. I'm yeah, so rich with having incredibly close friends who don't live in the area and I can access them.

SPEAKER_04 28:07

Because for per se, like just because of proximity.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

Yeah, I mean you you and there's different forms of it, you know. There's there's conversations with you where I can dump, you can dump, it can go both ways. Maybe I go deeper than you do, uh, in general, you know, this or that. You know, the the the reciprocity is a little bit different, or what you're reciprocating is different. Um, but yeah, you know, uh definitely, you know, uh and really I would I would almost say that it's that whole crew. Like there's just like a little bit of uh the vintage kids, I call them the vintage kids, like like a familial aspect to it. Yeah, while we're not calling each other up on the phone or hey Jaden, do you want to go see a movie? Yeah, because I'm older than his dad. I do show up at the exchange and we're all what's up, dude, you know, like and there's a shorthand, there's an ease, there's what have you seen, what have I seen? Yeah, what's going on? Like, and it's it's just there's great energy being exchanged. Yeah, but it's not what are you struggling with right now? Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, what's coming up? What's but what's really going on?

SPEAKER_04 29:11

How's the family?

SPEAKER_01 29:12

How's the I mean I will ask some of those guys how's you know, how are the kids, how's your wife, you know, everything good, but they're not, you know, they're not gonna unload in a therapy session. Yeah, for sure. Um, obviously the context doesn't always allow it. You're at a a vintage market, you know, or you're at an estate sales.

SPEAKER_04 29:30

Like, hey, like this is how I feel about this. Yeah. And you know that there's no exchange happening in that conversation. Like they're just there, like there's no there's no nothing that's carried out of the other end of that, right? Other than like, I hope you're better in that. Yeah. And I mean, yeah, you just certain people are just more wired to be that type of person in your life. Yep. Like I remember like I remember when I called you about my dad, and like I was like, oh, this is like look at us taking a big step forward in our life, having a conversation. You're like, oh buddy, thanks for yeah, like I don't know. That was just like a distinctive moment where it was like, okay, we're kind of jumping into the next. And so there's plenty of people who it's like, I mean, I have friends who I've had for you know 20 years. We've been really close friends, and I wouldn't have that conversation with them.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

So yeah, and there's you know, there are I'm obviously I I I'm a very open book, and and in certain situations with people, it doesn't take a ton for me to go beneath the surface, maybe not specifically. I'm just a shallow pool, yeah. Um but there, yeah, there's definitely there's certain things where there's only a handful of people where I'm gonna go to that level. And to be honest, you know, um uh you know, my buddy Nick's he's that way with me. He's like, I you know, I there's nobody else I can talk to about this stuff. Like it for him, you know, it's it's he can go into some real deep stuff. And he's like, he told me one time, and I'm this is not me patting myself on the back. I'm just trying to illuminate uh relationship dynamics that allow for something like that. Uh, and obviously, when you talk to me about your dad, it wasn't something that maybe you feel regret or shame about. Um, in in the sense, if Nick talks to me about something like that, he's just like, I feel like when I tell you this stuff, there's no judgment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you're the one person I feel like I can say something that I don't like that I did or whatever. And like there it like there's just not a one feeling of judgment.

SPEAKER_04 31:44

Well, there's just certain people where it's like like they're not gonna like, I mean, you you literally can tell them like you know, the morally ambiguous things, and that you can just be like, yeah, they're not gonna carry this and be like, yeah, oh, I don't know if I can, you know, talk to you anymore. I mean, they're just gonna be like, well, we're in this anyways, like like there's no, like, yeah, there's just a couple people in my life. It's just like, well, we're in this, like, yeah, what happened? And I don't mean it in that way, I mean it in just like, yeah, it's like, let's figure this out. Like, we're gonna like we are gonna be friends no matter what after this, so let's just figure this out. Yeah, not even you don't even have to figure it out, but let's just like get through this, like that kind of thing. And there's some people where that's just not possible, or there's that's not um, yeah. I don't I can't, I'm not uh you know I can't identify this. I'm sure there's studies or something where it's like these are the characteristics, of course. I don't know, but there's just something kind of uncanny where you're like, oh, okay, this is a person that I can share things with, and this isn't. Yeah. And that's yeah, it's interesting.

Listening Versus Waiting To Speak

SPEAKER_01 33:02

There was uh, I don't remember what I where I heard it, it was just recently, and this is what happens when you get older like me, you don't store the details of the context, but just the essence of what was communicated. It's just that's not you, that's our vibes culture. It's vibes culture. It's eating is all and it this is one of those things where like you knew this, but nobody just like succinctly articulated in a way where you could sort of like, okay, I can take that phrase or that idea and just hold it in my pocket, and anytime I you know I can just pull that phrase out, and I I know exactly what uh what we're all talking about. But it was just about relationships and the idea of when you're talking to or with someone, you may not be conscious of this when it's happening, but this phrase helped me to develop a consciousness about it. To it sucks, but to sort of categorize people. But there's people who listen to you and then people who are waiting to talk. Yeah, yeah. And I heard that and I'm like, because I'm guilty of both, obviously. There's times where I'm there's different someone's got me fired up, and what they're saying starts to turn into white noise. Yeah, I have the thing that I want to say, and I'm just waiting for a uh some kind of break for me to just trample them. Let me get let me give you my uh yeah. And so that phrase is helping me identify when I am waiting to speak, yeah, versus actually listening, but then it's also helping me identify the people who have no clue which one they are. Yeah. And I know certain people, this person, anytime I'm with them, they are just waiting to talk. Yeah. Especially if they're someone who likes to speak. And then there are some people that maybe aren't waiting to talk, but they're waiting for me to stop. So you they don't actually want to listen to they the work of listening it's it's the work of talking, they would rather not do either. It's like a nicety. Yep. Yeah, yeah, so they would like they would rather rather it not extend beyond a few sentences of an exchange, and they would rather just nothing. Got it. So I know to keep it succinct, yeah, keep it sure. A couple of quick things on the surface, and then they're not gonna want to go any deeper than that. Yeah. And if they do ask me a question, like that, you know, again for me, well, let me tell you the history of the universe leading up to this point, and then I'll answer your question. I struggle, right? I struggle with way too much context, put the person to sleep. There are two people specifically I'm thinking of uh with regards to that. Um, so from 47 years old, yeah. I generally am aware of this idea, but there's no word, there's no phrase categories. Now I have a little little uh uh what do they call it? Almost a mnemonic device, a little trick. I can go, okay, you're this person, you're this, you're this, and it's not a dismissal of that person, it's just more mapping. I know what kind of what kind of person you are on the receiving end of a conversation or uh even just communicate just words being exchanged. Yeah, I won't waste my energy, I won't talk too much, and I will be I will try to improve whatever the quality metric in that person's head is of that conversation. And try to just improve in myself, like, oh, you're waiting to talk right now. Yeah, stop and listen. Because I want to listen.

SPEAKER_04 36:45

See, but then do you become the other, yeah. I guess then is the thing that you become the other person who's like, Yeah. I I always have this thing that I've put on conversation where there's certain people where you just you leave and it's kind of exhausting. Yes. Like it's just like we just had a conversation and I am fatigued. Yep. And I don't know if it maps perfectly. Like I I was trying to map it right there. Um because when you said that, I was like, okay, let me think through like people listening and talking, and I was trying to map like does that have any correlation to the fatigue thing? Because I I I don't know if you find this, but some people it's just like fatiguing to have a conversation with.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

So there's another phrase, and think about this in future conversations. It's a phrase I've uh I've read it in the Zeitgeist called a conversational narcissist. So they're not a narcissist in the full-blown meaning of the word, but anytime they talk, if it's not them leading the conversation, yeah, and conversation is the wrong word, it's usually them talking at you about their stuff at length. I have probably been that in some people's eyes.

SPEAKER_04 37:57

I'm sure that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

And I have started to identify conversational narcissists. I can think of one person specifically, yeah. This sitting right across from your nose this person is not a bad person, yeah, but they they do not see beyond their own immediate need to be the one who is talking.

SPEAKER_04 38:17

It's kind of talking in a closed box, too, because there's never the possibility that you're gonna escape that. Like, like sometimes you and I will mention something and we will end up on the total other side of the plane. Yep. And that's like intellectually, that's exciting. Yes, because you're just like, whoa, didn't think we'd get here. Let's haven't thought about that, let's think about this, let's talk. When you're talking with somebody who is so fixated on like some kind of you know, closed topic or closed plane, like they're trying to control the plane of information so precisely, you're never gonna escape that particular box and get to somewhere where you're exploring. The minute you maybe maybe they're super interesting. Like there's definitely some people who dominate conversations and you're just like, wow, this is so interesting. That's the best version of that, yeah. I would assume. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Because they're entertaining or they they have great stories, or they're they're just like really unique thinking or something. And maybe you're in a mode where you want to listen.

SPEAKER_04 39:20

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, anytime you listen to a podcast, that's yeah, essentially you just want to be a yeah, voyeur on somebody else's.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

And the person that I'm thinking of who's the conversational narcissist, uh in the 10 years that I've that person's been in my world, three questions my way, zero interest in anything. Yeah. And and there's a little bit of you know, you know, again, I like to communicate. I like people to know what I'm doing. I like attention. You know, the dark side of that aspect of me being extroverted sometimes. Yeah, let me know. Yeah, shine the light on me a little bit and let me let me tell you about my stuff. Or I want to I want to relate what you're talking about to my experiences. And there's there's people who who uh are are conversational narcissists in the sense that when they listen to you, they're trying to see how what you're talking about relates to them so they can then tell you about themselves. And I'm guilty of that often.

SPEAKER_04 40:21

I think I think that's a human impulse. Sometimes though, I'm having a conversation and I just I don't want to give any input. Yeah. Like sometimes I'm just like, I just want to ask questions. Yeah, like I want to I I I need a little mini podcast episode here. Like, I if I if I get something interesting that you know we can dive into maybe, but especially and part of this might just be introversion. Like that's always kind of what I've attributed it to, and then you gave the categories, and I was like, Oh, I wonder if that's related. Um, I mean, I I think it's easier to go in and just ask people a lot of questions because you can have a conversation with anybody under the sun of any domain, of any domain expertise, if you're just willing to go and ask questions, and just like, oh, let's listen and ask some questions. And sometimes that's all I've got the mental buttons of you know, mental capacity for is just I just want to sit here and be talked to, like be told stories.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

Yep. Um well and and sadly for me, similarly, I have found similar in the sense of asking wanting to ask the questions, I will ask questions very selfishly. It seems like I'm probing for information about you, and and but I'm wanting to assess how what your answer is relates to me. Yeah. Like what about this when this happens?

SPEAKER_04 41:58

That's probably more cultural than you're giving it credit for, though. I think between a lot of people, it's like, you know, if I'm asking, you know, what is your spousal situation like? Right. Or like, I mean, obviously, I'm not gonna, what is your spousal situation like? I just met you at this party. Yeah, but you know, you're like, like, how did you and your wife meet? Things like that. There's some people are just asking that to just generic let's have the social interaction of the expectation of a conversation, carry this, and then I'm gonna go get another drink. Yeah, or there's I want to see what your relationship is like a bit. It's the same reason we watch a movie. I want to see what your life is like so I can compare my life to it.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

And to see, and for me, it's like it's for me, it's is sometimes like I have these issues or struggles or questions or whatever about my experience of marriage or my experience of making work or my experience of being a content creator. Let me probe deeply with you if you're open to telling me, you know, yeah, your very personal take on this thing, because I want to see where there's overlap. Like, are you experiencing the same thing as me? Because I'll feel more okay about myself if we're both feeling that way. And obviously different shades, different depths, different, you know, whatever, but like, okay, so you feel something like that too. Yeah. Um, yeah. You know, like I'm almost asking questions to help give myself therapy, to put myself at ease that there's a universal thread between and you feel more human.

SPEAKER_04 43:29

Yeah, you're like part of an ecosystem.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

It's just sort of like it's okay that I feel this way. I'm I'm I'm not alone on Matt Island, you know, like feeling like this.

SPEAKER_04 43:38

I don't think that's as selfish as I mean, yes, obviously it's like there's a you could take it in a selfish vein, but I think that's like why do we read? Yeah. You know, we read to hopefully find a little trance of humanity or little trace, you know, traces of humanity.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Um there's a selfish aspect to art, you know, you want to share it, but then it's also therapy or it's

SPEAKER_04 44:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Or it's getting attention, you know.

SPEAKER_04 44:02

I think art at its I mean, I'm not like I'm not gonna do a purity test on the art, but I do think you know, art that is not striving to just make money or just be like a commercial thing. Yeah, it's you're like you're exploring yourself, and then hopefully through that exploration and putting that out into the world, somebody else can find something and learn something about their self. And that's kind of it. That's the end of it. And obviously, there's all these structures that have been imposed where it's like, oh, well, there's a commerce aspect, and there's this and there's that, and how many people are you affecting? And then how do you find the universal? And then obviously you have people watering it down to be like, Well, I feel this way, but I want to make this more universal so I don't alienate audiences and uh you know, then you all but at the core, you're just like, Why do I feel this way? Let me explore this a little bit. Like, what is let me get a handle on what I think about this situation or this thing or this character trait. Yeah. And then you explore it and you put it out there, and then you move on to the next thing. That's kind of it. But then there's all this stuff that built on top of it, and that's very similar to what you're talking about in conversation.

Ego Myths And The Selfless Ideal

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Well, and and after going through acting school and talking about, you know, looking at characters that are doing things that maybe are objectively uh unethical, immoral, we all just sort of distilled it down like you guys, like the basic gist of human behavior is everyone out there is just trying to feel better. Yeah, they're just like they're just doing something that they think is gonna make them feel better. Yeah, and there's nothing more selfish than going, I don't I feel this way, I want to feel this way. This is all the shit I'm gonna do to try to get to this better feeling state.

SPEAKER_04 45:51

And it could be waiting to talk. And that's all most of bizarre. Like, and I I don't I don't even think that's a negative thing. You can look at it from a negative perspective, but I do think I mean, yeah, it's just because even people who are like incredibly altruistic or incredibly um generous or selfless. I uh and maybe it's one of those things where it's like you just can't see it unless like I just I don't know how much I I I mean there's always edge cases, but I don't know how much I I believe, especially in today's world and society, I don't believe I don't know how much I believe in the fully enlightened human. No, like the completely selfless, completely and you know what? I also think like like transcend your ego and all of that, like while I think there's good parts to all of that, I think we have to be careful that we don't end up becoming you know, locking ourselves into this when transcend your ego becomes something that operates inside of the realm of the ego, and then you're stuck. You're never gonna you can transcend the artificial ego inside of that really narrow structure and feel good about yourself. But like instead, I I think we need to think of like our ego, or uh it's like it's a force of nature that can it's like the wind, and you can put a sail up and the wind can carry you, or you can you know, the wind can it you could be in a storm, excuse the like the poorly uh unoriginal and poorly thought through metaphor, but um just it is something that can be good, can be bad, and we're creating like this market place that and we're like, oh well you have to transcend the ego, and to do that, you need to pay $9.99 for my course, or or even just like follow me like I have the guidance and the spiritual guidance, and we will do ayahuasca together and we will transcend this ego and da-da-da-da-da. And then you're walking around with like a a uh shrouded superiority or something because you've done the work and that's right. Oh man, that person, if they would just do the work, bless you. They would transcend like I did and bless you. Like, I I do not think poorly or negatively of you, but you need to transcend and find this. And I just think that like the true selflessness is a there's a different look to it. Like it's almost it's learning to navigate and use it, and not for like a commercial benefit, but learning to navigate and use the the self and the ego in a way that isn't you're not destroying it, right? But you are you've mastered it in a sense. I don't know if that's even possible.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

I think well, there's it's it's to me, it's it's if you think like when we talk about waiting to talk and listening, if I say to myself, I want I I want to always listen. Like I I just that that to me is the that that to me represents the best version of someone who's in a relationship with someone. They're always listening, they're never waiting to talk. So I need to exterminate waiting to talk from my existence. Well, that's not that's then you're you're yeah, that that's what being a human being is. You are gonna have times where you selflessly listen and you're gonna have times where you're selfishly waiting to talk.

SPEAKER_04 49:17

Yeah, you if you and sometimes I want I want that feedback. Like, yeah, I want to say something and I don't want you to listen. I want I'm trying to solve something here. Please wrestle with me.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Like that's so but yeah, you're gonna have times where you're but don't don't wrestle it back to you. Like like I want you to talk to me, but I don't but but I want you to be helping me rather than trying to wrestle it back to being about you. Oh I see what you're doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So to me, it you know, and again, a through line in the show, surrender this idea of surrender, you're not gonna ditch your ego, doesn't matter how many ayahuasca you have to take. Now, can you the next one will can you can you strike a better balance between the two? Absolutely. But to the idea that you're going to eliminate some aspect of that, all selfishness. I am gonna be a selfless parent. I'm gonna be a no. Well, then you're you're not a human being anymore. Um so as great as it is to have that phrase to have with me to better map other people, to be able to listen to myself, there are times where I'm like, you are waiting to talk, and I really want to listen right now, so I can use that as a tool to identify that and and move toward listening and deploy some self-awareness. Why were you waiting to talk? What's going on with what's going on in your life or whatever that you you know you're hoping to make this a little bit more about you or it's just like a water level guide. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Add a little bit of anything. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 50:55

Take a little bit of yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Like, is your anxiety ratcheted up? What's going on, you know? And again, I'm gonna eradicate those things that are creating the anxiety because the anxiety is creating the the weight to talk feeling. You know, uh it's just again continued continued self-awareness and understanding of all those forces at play. For the most part, you know, to me to to just to to to take the edge off any extremes. You know, what's nice in a relationship with you or other people is you can deploy those mechanisms when or even manage expectations, like, hey Alex, just a heads up. Like when we've had some podcasts where like I'm gonna want to move quick. There's a lot of shit going on right now, and I don't want to walk in the room and you'd be like, What the fuck? You said the cameras? Like, do we don't even have a warm-up? Like, don't you want to know how things are going? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I got a lot of shit. Look, I gotta be somewhere at four o'clock. I got two thirty right now, gotta go. And that's and I think that's what ends up not happening a lot. Not that we always have to give our emotional context every time we encounter each other as people, not just you and me. Um to have some self-awareness, yeah, to be able to help someone go, look, I'm in a I'm in an extreme state right now, and I might have some behaviors that make you frustrated with scratch your head or whatever. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:22

Like and there's also just it's so funny that we even think of because I do think at one time that was very it was very common to just pick up on the subtext of that and kind of process it. Yeah, and that's something, and you blame digital technology, blame whatever the fuck you want to blame. Yeah, you know, oh, it's a plus 25 years or whatever. I don't know what it is. Yeah, probably has something to do with it. But 100% we've lost the ability to kind of just intuit. Thank you. You still have emotional intelligence, too. Like, you know, there's plenty of podcasts where it's like, oh, Matt's tired or Alex is tired, or like like when we're walking around taking photos, like I how many times have I just been like, dude, I am fried right now? Yeah, like or if I'm I'm excited to do this, but like I just letting you know like I'm fucking fried right now, and like that's just how this is gonna go. And we used to have like a better shorthand, not not you and I specifically, just as people as a and it it's a little, and now everybody's going in with this baggage, all of this subtext that's not getting um deployed in any kind of you know uh measurable way, and then both people are taking it to mean completely different things, and then you almost like it's almost like we've taken the ambiguity of like a text exchange and brought that into the real world rather than bringing that into the text

How Text Culture Warps Context

SPEAKER_04 53:52

exchange.

SPEAKER_01 53:52

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_04 53:53

Like, because remember when you text somebody and it's like, oh man, there's just no context here. Yeah. And I like that's part of the reason why I've never really had that problem because I don't really communicate really emotional things over text. Yeah. Like I'm a very pick-up the phone and call, even like more than a couple of sentences for me in text, unless it's I just need to communicate this information in a way that somebody can reference it. Yep, it's too much, it's a lot. Um, but it's almost like we've taken that, you know, like just context, independent, ambiguous staging of a text message, and we've applied that more to real life than the opposite.

SPEAKER_01 54:33

That's interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way.

SPEAKER_04 54:35

I don't know if that's a good way to Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:37

What impact does the the dominant modes of communication? Yeah. It's almost like um, and I don't know if this is perfectly related, but there's some people that you text with and you like explain something or it's a logistical thing, you know, you're working out a meetup or whatever, and they're just like, okay, period. Are you a psychopath? Like, what the fuck? What the fuck? Are you mad at me? Like you like from one word, like uh yeah, there has to be some effect uh uh on our communication from consuming emails and text messages, how our brain works when we communicate with those methods, and how that bleeds into in-person communication.

SPEAKER_04 55:20

Um yeah, and you would you would hope that the in-person thing would be, you know, well, this is what all the evolution is built on, this is the dominant mode, right? Right. But it really isn't the dominant mode. Like we've covered that on like when we talk on the podcast, it's like this is the longest form of conversation, and obviously there's other people that you talk to, but I can go a day with having, you know, maybe I'll talk 90 minutes over the course of a day, right? And everything I'm silent for the rest of it. And I don't think that has ever been the case until the last 30 years or so, probably. For the most, I mean, there were days probably where you didn't leave the house, but I mean you can go to the store and put headphones in and not talk to a person. Yeah, you can do all your grocery shopping, everything, and not even interact with the person.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

Self-checkout, yeah, in and out.

SPEAKER_04 56:10

Or or or you know, some people just do the pickup or the delivery to their home so they can avoid so your hundred hours, thousand hours, ten thousand hours of you know, biological training is kind of coming from. Yeah. Oh, well, I typed this into the YouTube search bar, I typed this into I d I I don't maybe. I'm sure there's linguists that have studied this, and there's you know psychological studies that have kind of, you know, yeah. Tried to tackle these ideas.

Introverts In Shops And Restaurants

SPEAKER_01 56:38

But and it's interesting, um, you know, just being at the shop too, because you have quite the the varying uh age demographic and tends to be, and I don't mean to make a generalization, but in the in that some small sample of young people up to older folks, the older people are the ten they tend to talk more um and they tend to um to the point where the older they are the the the the almost like oversharing and not necessarily personal, but like and this occurred when I was a cashier um at a grocery store. You know, older folks would I don't know if I was their only potential. You know? Um, and then the kids that come into the shop, I don't even know if they want you to say, hey, you know, welcome in. Let me know if you're gonna be able to do it. I don't know if I can help you find help help you find anything, you know. Like I like because I'll see Josh sometimes just not say shit to anybody. Yeah. And I'm like, uh, you know, he's been doing this for a long time, so you know, he has a read on these kids, these kids don't want they don't want you to say shit to them.

SPEAKER_04 57:48

Walking by these like newsstand vendors in France, and the difference between France and Italy. Like, I remember in in Italy, a lot of um you you hey, can I help you? Like, yeah, you like you know, they'll try to speak English if they if they if your Italian's not good or you might have like a couple of word exchanges in Italian, and and then a lot of the places in France they're just yeah, yep. I even commented, I was like, that's kind of nice. I kind of like that. Introverts paradise. I kind of like I like just okay, I'm gonna browse this, and I don't feel like there's the expectation to humor you, right? Or to you know, oh this is so interesting. Like, I don't know, waste of my time, fake. Yeah, if it's interesting, I'll say it's interesting and I'll buy it, or I'll ask you a question if I have a question. And maybe part of that though is just the expectation has been built in, and now we can subvert the expectation. Whereas before you had the expectation, it was like, hey, seriously, how does this work? Yeah, like how do how do price tags work? Do I pick it up? Like you used to go into a store and everything's behind the counter, and you had to be like, I'll take uh cornmeal and uh two cans of beans and uh the dairy milk and um some of that beef, and then they're gonna like me to wrap that up? Yeah, here you go. And then at some point you go in the store and there's just like a tag and things are out in the store, and it's like, how does this work? Yeah, and so you had to work through that, and now like you've done it for so long, there is a shorthand that can be effective. And so we it maybe it has taken every step of that progression to get to where we are. And now you can just go into a store and be like, if I need anything, I can ask. I don't need them to tell me, Hey, feel free to ask. Like, I can ask.

SPEAKER_03 59:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:37

Um, I yeah, I don't know. It's just it was interesting because I was like, Man, that's kind of nice. Yeah, not being interacted with. Yep. And then, but then you do have, especially in America, because Americans are the fucking worst with stuff like this. Where and I mean it's the joke is like the boomer that goes into the store, and they're like, like, they didn't say anything to me. Like, it's like, shut the fuck up, buddy. Like, there is there is uh and but I get it, it's a generational difference.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:04

There is an air of that at the shop because there are older customers that come in because they're you know antiquing or looking for stuff, you do and I say to myself when I'm in there, even if I'm just bringing in my inventory, I'm like, yeah, I I I know that in general, those folks they I can feel an energy from them that they want to have that ice broken, yeah, and put at ease or sort of like do your psych your your uh sociological duty of you know saying something and welcoming me and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:38

It's it's so hard to strike a balance too, because so we were at Lola's on Friday, we had dinner at Lola's, and um the waiter was great, yeah. But he you asked a little, like we'd be in the middle of a conversation, and you're like getting to something, and you're like, okay, what point am I trying to make? Or like where what am I like? You just said a thing, and like I wanted to dig deeper on that, and I'm trying to remember what you said like two minutes ago, so I can tie that back in. And then would you like some more water? Is everything okay here? And I'm like, I'm like, there have been so many restaurant experiences where I'm like, Water? Can we get some more water, please? Like, can somebody fucking come refill this water? Does anybody work here? And then I I just felt myself getting really annoyed about it on Friday. Yeah, and so I'm like, where's the balance? Yeah, because he was doing a great job. Yeah, he was doing his job, right? And you know what? Like, I'm not gonna complain, and we we tipped him, and like it was great, but sometimes I'm just like, I just want to do not disturb. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do not disturb you. You were in the zone. Like, like we have interruption. We're having a conversation, you know. We have like all of us are excited to be here, just having some good food. Everybody was listening, talking about everybody was everybody was waiting to talk. Everybody's digging in, engaged. It was it was a good time. And um, would you like some more water, sir? You just refilled this.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:04

You just refilled this, I swear to god, a quarter, quarter gone on the water when it's empty.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:09

Also, they don't have espresso after meals. They had their espresso machine, they're like, we don't have anybody that can work. And I'm like, we need to train these bartenders on how to make an espresso.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:18

Gosh, I think Lola's would be the first place.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:21

Yeah, that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:21

You've all been a French Italian Yeah, like just train the bartender to make Americanos and espresso.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:28

Yeah. Like that, there's the two cultures where you would expect that after dinner espresso. I don't know. Gosh, I wouldn't have expected that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:34

I mean, I don't typically I usually do a decaf coffee at night because I don't want to dice it up, but I do too. We were going to see the movie after though, so I was like, okay. Yeah, a little bump. A little bump. Yeah, not gonna derail your sleep schedule.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:46

Kind of flush everything down, especially if there was dessert. Yeah, and there it was. It was a heavy meal. Yeah, a heavy meal, and Audrey got the steak.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:55

Oh, great. I almost got Lola's for lunch, but I'm like, I can't do $21 for lunch right now. Yeah, I'm gonna go it is I'm gonna go half that.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:05

Yeah. We we uh last time I went was when we all went in November for Christmas. So I was like, yeah, let's go and dinner in a movie, group chat, Christmas party.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:14

It's great. You gotta do it again.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:16

Dinner in a movie, group chat, Christmas party is gonna happen. But yeah, I um I don't know. I don't know where you draw the line. I know ask me. And yeah, sometimes I'm just like, yeah. I want more service. Right. So yeah, and that's you know, the and the best, the best of the best though, have it like their EQ is so high. Yeah, they're like, Oh, you're clearly having a conversation. I'm just gonna top this water off.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

Like, well, so so um and I don't do this every time I go out to dinner, but when Nick comes to town and we go to Sullivan's for dinner, I and he's fine with it, but I usually tell the the waiter, I'm like, because we're there, we're we're expecting to be there for two to three hours. Yeah. Mostly because we want to talk. You're just hanging out. Yeah, we're just I mean, yeah you can't shut us up. We're gonna, you know, when we're together. And so I always tell the waiter, like, we're not the like your typical dining. Like we, you know, we know you close at 10, we're hoping to be here for between two and three hours, so there's no urgency. We're respecting the close time, but like we're gonna we want to have some drinks, yeah. A couple appetizers, whatever meal, dessert, like it's gonna be a process. So, and they they just are like they I totally get it. But if I don't do that, yeah, even at a place that's finer dining like Sullivan's is, um, finer dining in Omaha, um I think that generally people wanna have a quick process.

Reservations And The Cost Of Time

SPEAKER_01 1:04:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:53

In and out. Well, like whenever we go to Au Curant, we're like, hey, I haven't been there yet.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:57

So okay, so we want to do like boiler room, I haven't done it.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:01

We're thinking me and Audrey, you and Aaron, Nate and Aaron, Cody and Ashley. Yeah, and we used to do an occurant dinner if you're down. I am, it's getting my wife to do it. Well, any we are open to the time. We can plan this two months from the time. She's in bed at 8 30, so we'll go early. Um dinner. It's really very, very good food. And seasonal menus. Yeah. Um obviously, you do the tasting menu when you go there, you do the line pairing. It is not the cheapest thing, but it you know, it's it's amazing. Um my wife and I'll split an appetizer. Thank you. We'll do. We're actually gonna do the uh non tasting menu. We'll do the opposite. Uh this is on uh no. But yeah, we it's always just like, hey, we're gonna be here for a little bit. Yes, we're gonna hang out. And I think at a restaurant. And they respect it a little bit more because it's expected. Right. Especially if you order the tasting menu, they know like, okay, they're they're here. Yep. And then it's kind of it's Show yep and it's great and they're performing and you're performing and it's the the you know the somewhere comes out and he's performing, and okay, or he or she and they're okay. This is from the you know the Bordeaux region, and this is gonna pair with this, and this is actually a winery that we just discovered, and they had made 12 bottles last year. It's not actually that fancy, but you get the point, and it's a show, and it's kind of what like you just have to set the expectation. I think some stores have even experimented where you take like a tag or like a bracelet at the door, and it's you can talk to me, don't talk to me. Oh, interesting. No, no, yeah, yeah. So it might not be in America or if it was if it was, it was in New York or LA or I could see that.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:49

Yeah, it's like a door hanger at the hotel.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:51

Yeah, yeah. I but you just when you come in the door, there's a little thing, yeah, and you just I don't know if it's like a bracelet, maybe it's one of those like slap bracelets thing, and you just type it. That makes sense. And if it's red, it's like don't talk to me. Um, and if it's blue, it's you can talk to me, or like I want to be engaged. Engaged. I don't know if that's the solution either. That's kind of goofy in my opinion, but I I I think it's interesting. I don't think it's completely the wrong idea.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:22

Maybe just like slightly unelegant and it's represent like but they're trying to figure out like there are gonna be diners that are introverted or they don't wanna they don't want to have extraneous exchanges, they don't want to get into chit chat, they just want to I just want to order, they want to have an experience, yeah, personal experience. Maybe they're deep in thought, you know, whatever it is that that that has that. I I can understand that. I I will say another thing about the restaurant thing. Now, when I said the Sullivan's thing, two to three hours. We go on a Tuesday night in November, yeah, and there's like eight people in the whole restaurant. You know what though, but if you're spending Sullivan money on a Sullivan meal, you if you want to say that for three hours, you should be like the only time I would push back on that a little bit is is you know, there are some restaurants, and I don't know that that it's an Omaha thing, but there are some restaurants where the demand is high, and if it's a chef-owned, you know, restaurant, especially, I want to get what I want, which is a longer meal, but I also want you to turn tables over so you're a profitable restaurant. I don't want to have such a long meal that that as much as I spend, I'm actually costing you money because you could have had three customers. They could have had, yeah. They could have had two more customers the amount of time that we occupy to table, especially when it's a four-top, a six-top, yeah, you know, something like that in that sweet spot of what the most common.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:55

It's funny because like I I'm just the only reason I say Ukaran, but I know um Yoshitomo does this too. Yeah. Where they'll book time slots. Right. So you have this time slot, yeah. And typically if you get the time slot, or I mean, no, if you like if you book the time slot, it's slotted out. Yep. So there's no opportunity cost for not, and then you just get to know, okay, well, I've got two, three hours here.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:22

And sometimes the restaurant will say that to the table we're gonna give you has a reservation at 7 30. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:28

So, you know, way more common in Europe, I think, to where it's like, hey, yeah, can you be out of here by eight or seven thirty? Yeah. I think that would be great to do in more in the US, but I think we leaned so heavily into Fast Casual, we're slowly recovering from that. And we don't have, you know, obviously the New York dining scene. Yeah, in New York and LA it's it's way more common for sure. And the the bookings there are months in advance. I mean, there's New York and LA restaurants where you yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:55

If you don't have a reservation, well, there's entire TikToks. There's this one guy who does it, and he his whole his whole kind of I I'm I I don't want to say gimmick necessarily, but his or his angle on his content is I'm gonna go to all the coolest restaurants in New York and just try to get a seat like that day. Yeah, yeah. And they'll be like, Well, you can sit at the bar, or they're like, Well, we do have a table, but you gotta be out of here, and not in a shitty way, but you gotta be out of here by seven. Yeah. And so they're like, Cool, we'll do it. It's like Yeah. And a lot of times they're turned away. Like, we can put you on the cancel list, is about the best that they get.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:29

Well, even like I had that experience in Nashville. We were we did like lunch at a hotel. Um, me and a buddy of mine, and had to do open table. And like it was just so common. Yeah. Oh, open table, yeah. You have the open table app, right? I think so. Yeah, I was no, no, I mean that's what they're I was like, oh, I didn't have it. Oh, I had never like, yeah, I don't even have an Instagram lady. Well, but I mean, I was like, I was like, I don't you go to any restaurant no mall pretty much, and I mean like the only the tasting menu at like a Yoshitomo is gonna be like the one, maybe but I mean yeah, like even the good restaurants here, it's like 24 hours. Table this way. Yeah, or show up, just show up. 100%. So I was just so unfamiliar with the process. I think when we do large parts, you need to have a reservation, we tend to do reservations like like a six or an eight top or like we'll we'll do that too. I mean, obviously, even like for group chat stuff. It's like, hey, like we're gonna have this many people, what do you recommend?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:27

How should we approach this? Yep, yeah. And it's nice too, because then they're not scrambling to put a bunch of tables together and and whatever, they're prepared for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:35

Yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:36

Versus two people walking in day of, like, oh, right this way. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, we just leaned heavily into restaurant. Podcast, podcast debrief into conversational dynamics and into restaurants protocols. Yeah, protocols. Yeah. Efficiency protocols for booking. That's what studio sessions the art of dining, the art of conversation, and the art of podcasting.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:05

Lower case. Now we now we have something to talk about with guests that are uh restaurant.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:11

What are your thoughts on reservations? Dining in Omaha, yeah. We can't do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:15

It is it is funny though. I mean, I'm sure if there's somebody listening to this in like uh in New York or London or in LA or even a Chicago. Plus your little hearts. Yeah. Oh, sweetheart. You got a book. You listen to these. Reservation is key.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:28

Oh, they're so sweet, these boys.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:31

I do feel like whenever we have uh dinner with Cody and Ashley, they're big reservation. Yeah, yeah. They they're big. Always call the reservation.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:39

I wonder, I wonder what brought them there. I am not I I was wondering the same thing because they got burned, they don't like they there's no table availability. Um they know something from the inside that we don't because I don't think either of them worked in the restaurant business. Maybe it takes maybe there's just a little bit of anxiety when they aren't sure that they have a seat.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:02

So it's just like, why not? I don't even buy my film streams tickets ahead of time. Yeah, unless it's a really well the big thing with the reservation for me is as great as it is to know you have a seat, I'm not good at showing up on time. Yeah, yeah, that's my problem too. So if I'm there 10 minutes late, am I like tech? Hey, we're sorry, we're but then you're pushing your, you know what I mean? And you're starting to interfere with later later tables for the restaurant.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:23

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean that's the yeah, especially if you're coming here, it's like 15-minute drive.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:30

You're like, oh man, I got caught up in something, left 10 minutes late. Yep. Now I'm yeah, I'm my reservation's bumping into the other.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:40

Or you get in the flow, and yeah, you're like, oh shit, it's I gotta go. Yeah. I'll see you like something.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:45

I'll see you halfway through the previews. Sometimes we'll be like, yeah, going to see a movie, and um, you're you're really good at showing up early. Yeah, you know we're terrible at all. I have bad seat anxiety, but you and I have even been like, you know, we're going to see that movie tonight, right? Yep, 100%. And then you know, we both are like at you know, four o'clock comes around, Dan's time, and it's like you still yeah, yeah. All right, we're out. Yep. You book the ticket or whatever, then yeah, yeah. It helps when we do buy the ticket anymore. Or rebel against the ticket.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:18

That's the problem. I know, but I didn't I didn't think I'd be this tired at uh at this time. Nine o'clock sounded good yesterday, but it sounds horrible right now. Yeah, how long's the movie? Buddy.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:33

That's a little tight. Um, one more thing. Yeah. We're pushing up against our two-hour limit, anyways. Oh my goodness. Um shit, did I lose it? I might have lost it.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:47

Oh, I'll get it back. Restaurants, movies, going to movies, rebel rebelling, canceling last minute.

Photo Walks And Building A Gallery

SPEAKER_04 1:14:56

Oh yeah, the um the photo get togethers.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:00

Yes, the photo walks.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:02

I definitely want to I want to revisit our gallery idea.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:07

Um, I was thinking about that last night.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:08

Like, well, after seeing your website, I'm like, you you're not far off from being able to have decisions about what you'd want to show.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:21

Whereas I'm still trying to organize all my crap and aperture to do what you did. That what every time I do it, not to cut you off, no, no, no. Every time I do I I work in aperture and I'm trying to do an uh like an hour in the morning, early morning, of just organizing the photos. And I'm still pulling stuff in from the archives of the uh first photography YouTube channel to get it into aperture, organizing it in a way that's pleasant to me, and then then taking going through all of that and and putting them into appropriate projects, kind of like you have the names, paradise and all that. I have names for mine, yeah. And um it's funny that you named yours Paradise. I didn't name mine Paradise, but you're like, but I did.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:07

No, I didn't know it's funny.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:10

So it's interesting. I think it's just a similar vibe or sort of instinct. Oh yeah. Um, but I'm like, okay, so I have just like street photography photos. Like I'm on a street, I see something interesting, and I take a photo of it. But then there's the other photos that are something else.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:27

I'm trying to sort mine into like I've like Paradise is a working project. I I'm there's another one that I might put up as like a working project. Yeah. You know, a couple like uh like maybe I'll do like my like I don't know, there's just possibilities for like little galleries. Uh-huh. And then you have personal photos are sorted by years, there's 26, 27, whatever. Um and then editorial street photography. I'm trying to sort into like those bends. So you can come and just see like interesting street photography and they bleed. Yeah, yeah. And they bleed. Mine will too. And some things I'll take out, and like I it's what I don't want to be too post-centric. Like, I want to make sure I like all this stuff in Paradise has been sitting on my computer for a year, year and a half, or I mean, some of it's from this year, obviously, but it's even then five months, you know, it's been sitting around and going through edits and things like that. So I I'm still trying to find that balance, but it is nice just knowing okay, this goes here, and then it's out, and you just don't think about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:32

And it being a golden afternoon, and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer experience.